(07-17-2020 09:29 AM)tanqtonic Wrote:  

(07-17-2020 08:34 AM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(07-17-2020 08:27 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  Seeing reporting out of Portland of federal troops hopping out of vehicles and grabbing people in the streets. Freaky-deaky to say the least, especially when you see a video of it.

Quote:A block west of Chapman Square, Pettibone and O’Shea bumped into a group of people who warned them that people in camouflage were driving around the area in unmarked minivans grabbing people off the street.

“So that was terrifying to hear,” Pettibone said.

They had barely made it half a block when an unmarked minivan pulled up in front of them.

“I see guys in camo,” O’Shea said. “Four or five of them pop out, open the door and it was just like, ‘Oh ****. I don’t know who you are or what you want with us.’”

Federal law enforcement officers have been using unmarked vehicles to drive around downtown Portland and detain protesters since at least July 14. Personal accounts and multiple videos posted online show the officers driving up to people, detaining individuals with no explanation of why they are being arrested, and driving off.

https://www.opb.org/news/article/federal...rotesters/

Very disturbing. I can't imaging the Libertarians here are fans of this.

I definitely would like to learn more. One issue that stands out is the free interchange of the terms 'arrest' and 'detain' in fhe article, which are very separate concepts.

If one reads beyond the items being implied, this could be a Federal equivalent of the widely used local anti gang practices that involve stopping, questioniing, and creating a photo record of suspected gang members. Albeit maybe on unhealthy steroids.

As noted, I would prefer to have this fleshed out more prior to rendering a personal opinion.

One big distinction, I would imagine, is that in the gang detaining, the police officers identified themselves at some point. The reporting I’ve seen indicates that one person grabbed still doesn’t know if they were even technically arrested.

I think we can agree, without background, that the practice of government officials in full blown tactical gear, jumping out of unmarked vehicles, without any identification, and grabbing individuals off the street, should only be a tactic used in VERY extreme and unusual circumstances.

Regarding tax policy: what do you guys think the tax rates should be on the various types of taxes: earned income, capital gains, property, sales, excise, etc.?

My experience is that almost no politician or commentator has a principled answer to this question. The only answers they seem capable of giving is a reflexive "higher than now" or "lower than now".

About the only person I have ever seen give a definitive proposal is Owl #s.

(07-17-2020 10:56 AM)georgewebb Wrote:  Regarding tax policy: what do you guys think the tax rates should be on the various types of taxes: earned income, capital gains, property, sales, excise, etc.?

My experience is that almost no politician or commentator has a principled answer to this question. The only answers they seem capable of giving is a reflexive "higher than now" or "lower than now".

About the only person I have ever seen give a definitive proposal is Owl #s.

I would eliminate all income and death taxes and replace them with a national sales or consumption tax. There are several advantages to this as opposed to our current system:

1. When politicians want to raise taxes, everybody in our country would be concerned, instead of only those it hits. Everybody would be concerned with tax levels.
2. It is fair, hitting all people in proportion to their spending.
3. It does not discourage investment or business.
4. It can easily be implemented on the back of the existing sales tax systems we already have in most states. The IRS could be converted to checking on taxes being remanded by businesses.
5. It taxes the underground cash economy that current escapes taxation. Even drug dealers and illegals will pay their fair share.
6 It does not require citizens to self-report under penalties of law.


I would except spending for food and medicines, for medical treatment, and perhaps auto parts.

Yeah, it would take a little getting used to the higher bill when you leave Kohl's, but the higher take home pay would offset that. We have gotten used to withholding and sales taxes already.

Anyway, that is my opinion.

(07-17-2020 08:27 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  Seeing reporting out of Portland of federal troops hopping out of vehicles and grabbing people in the streets. Freaky-deaky to say the least, especially when you see a video of it.

Quote:A block west of Chapman Square, Pettibone and O’Shea bumped into a group of people who warned them that people in camouflage were driving around the area in unmarked minivans grabbing people off the street.

“So that was terrifying to hear,” Pettibone said.

They had barely made it half a block when an unmarked minivan pulled up in front of them.

“I see guys in camo,” O’Shea said. “Four or five of them pop out, open the door and it was just like, ‘Oh ****. I don’t know who you are or what you want with us.’”

Federal law enforcement officers have been using unmarked vehicles to drive around downtown Portland and detain protesters since at least July 14. Personal accounts and multiple videos posted online show the officers driving up to people, detaining individuals with no explanation of why they are being arrested, and driving off.

https://www.opb.org/news/article/federal...rotesters/

Holy crap... how does this NOT almost immediately move us to a lack of trust of police/opportunity for abuse? It can even be abused by rogue gangs.

(07-17-2020 11:54 AM)Hambone10 Wrote:  

(07-17-2020 08:27 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  Seeing reporting out of Portland of federal troops hopping out of vehicles and grabbing people in the streets. Freaky-deaky to say the least, especially when you see a video of it.

Quote:A block west of Chapman Square, Pettibone and O’Shea bumped into a group of people who warned them that people in camouflage were driving around the area in unmarked minivans grabbing people off the street.

“So that was terrifying to hear,” Pettibone said.

They had barely made it half a block when an unmarked minivan pulled up in front of them.

“I see guys in camo,” O’Shea said. “Four or five of them pop out, open the door and it was just like, ‘Oh ****. I don’t know who you are or what you want with us.’”

Federal law enforcement officers have been using unmarked vehicles to drive around downtown Portland and detain protesters since at least July 14. Personal accounts and multiple videos posted online show the officers driving up to people, detaining individuals with no explanation of why they are being arrested, and driving off.

https://www.opb.org/news/article/federal...rotesters/

Holy crap... how does this NOT almost immediately move us to a lack of trust of police/opportunity for abuse? It can even be abused by rogue gangs.

If people haven't seen the video posted on social media, it's freaky, like I said.

https://twitter.com/SenJeffMerkley/statu...ed-vans%2F

(07-17-2020 12:23 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  

(07-17-2020 12:04 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  If people haven't seen the video posted on social media, it's freaky, like I said.

https://twitter.com/SenJeffMerkley/statu...ed-vans%2F

Where is the evidence that these are Federal officials? Why aren't Portland Officials doing anything about it? Feds don't have jurisdiction over protestors not on Federal property.

Feds have been in Portland for the last two weeks.

Quote:Protests in Oregon's largest city following the police killing of George Floyd have continued for 47 days. In the past two weeks, federal officers sent to Portland by the Trump administration have escalated tensions, particularly after an officer with the U.S. Marshals Service fired a less-lethal round at a protester’s head on July 11, critically injuring him.

The head of DHS was speaking to them today.

https://twitter.com/DHS_Wolf/status/1284095535067136002

From his Twitter account:



I guess there is a small chance that the guys video taped arent feds and are military cosplayers and that the person interviewed by OPB is lying.

Quote:Blinded by his hat, in an unmarked minivan full of armed people dressed in camouflage and body armor who hadn’t identified themselves, Pettibone said he was driven around downtown before being unloaded inside a building. He wouldn’t learn until after his release that he had been inside the federal courthouse.
“It was basically a process of facing many walls and corners as they patted me down and took my picture and rummaged through my belongings,” Pettibone said. “One of them said, ‘This is a whole lot of nothing.’”

(07-14-2020 07:57 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(07-11-2020 07:00 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(07-10-2020 11:15 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(07-10-2020 09:28 AM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(07-09-2020 03:33 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  The Breathe Act

This is the level of idiocy that makes it impossible for me to support any democrat, no matter how nice he is.

I presume all the democrats here support this - at the least they will vote for people who will support this. But if one of you does not support this, speak up.

A lot to unpack here... please don't equate lack of comments with support.

OK, take your time, but p-lease comment.

As for the rest of you, what is it that BLM says about silence?

Oh yeah

Had enough time yet?

My thanks to Ausowl. A special raspberry to Big.

I like raspberries, but sending me just one seems like a waste of a stamp.

In seriousness, if this was a serious legislative proposal that Congress was debating and had significant support, I'd be happy to dig into it. But I don't feel like spending my time looking at, based on what you suggest, some super-crazy-left proposal that goes no where. Similarly, I don't spend any time whatsoever looking at super-crazy-right proposals that don't have significant enough support to possibly become law. You spend your time how you want and i'll spend my time how I want, thank you very much!

(07-16-2020 08:29 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  That's what bugs me about so many automatic straight ticket democrats ... is that they will gladly let the socialists lead this country down the soviet path, even though they don't favor that.

Yes why the straight-ticket democrats nominated **checks notes** Joe Biden over Bernie Sanders as the Democratic nominee. Nice story.

I have been going through a little $h!t on the home front this week. I really should stay away from this place...

(07-17-2020 12:44 PM)mrbig Wrote:  

(07-16-2020 08:29 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  That's what bugs me about so many automatic straight ticket democrats ... is that they will gladly let the socialists lead this country down the soviet path, even though they don't favor that.

Yes why the straight-ticket democrats nominated **checks notes** Joe Biden over Bernie Sanders as the Democratic nominee. Nice story.

I have been going through a little $h!t on the home front this week. I really should stay away from this place...

Big, $h!t on the home front is the worst. Hope you guys get through it OK.

(07-17-2020 12:44 PM)mrbig Wrote:  

(07-16-2020 08:29 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  That's what bugs me about so many automatic straight ticket democrats ... is that they will gladly let the socialists lead this country down the soviet path, even though they don't favor that.

Yes why the straight-ticket democrats nominated **checks notes** Joe Biden over Bernie Sanders as the Democratic nominee. Nice story.

I have been going through a little $h!t on the home front this week. I really should stay away from this place...

All they did is choose Biden to lead them down the primrose path instaed of Sanders. But same place, eventually. You act as though he is not taking to the same place as the rest of them...and you.

(07-17-2020 12:36 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  Feds have been in Portland for the last two weeks.

Quote:Protests in Oregon's largest city following the police killing of George Floyd have continued for 47 days. In the past two weeks, federal officers sent to Portland by the Trump administration have escalated tensions, particularly after an officer with the U.S. Marshals Service fired a less-lethal round at a protester’s head on July 11, critically injuring him.

The head of DHS was speaking to them today.

https://twitter.com/DHS_Wolf/status/1284095535067136002

From his Twitter account:

I can see twitter... maybe there is something in there that gives more proof. I'm going from the 'unmarked' comment.

Them being in town and them engaging in these tactics are not the same thing. There is a Portland office of the FBI, but that doesn't mean that if you're being wiretapped, that it's the FBI doing it.

Quote:

Quote:I guess there is a small chance that the guys video taped arent feds and are military cosplayers and that the person interviewed by OPB is lying.

[quote]Blinded by his hat, in an unmarked minivan full of armed people dressed in camouflage and body armor who hadn’t identified themselves, Pettibone said he was driven around downtown before being unloaded inside a building. He wouldn’t learn until after his release that he had been inside the federal courthouse.
“It was basically a process of facing many walls and corners as they patted me down and took my picture and rummaged through my belongings,” Pettibone said. “One of them said, ‘This is a whole lot of nothing.’”

Remember when you said you had no idea how we got sideways with each other? This is how. I see the above as unnecessarily condescending/snarky.

If he's lying, he certainly wouldn't be the first person to do so... and OPB not the first to fall for it. I certainly find it odd that someone engaging in what I suspect most people would consider such overt violations of our civil liberties would openly ADMIT that to him.

My greater question was, if this is taking place in a liberal town like Portland whose leadership has 'defunded the police'... and have openly defied the Feds before by announcing that they are a 'sanctuary state'.... WHY hasn't the Portland police or government or governor issued a formal complaint about its citizens being harassed and terrorized by Federal officials, NOT on Federal property. Heck, I'd expect them to do so even if the entire event took place on Federal property.



Summary... I think this is a travesty as reported... I am convinced that the story you've been given is vastly too simple... There MUST be something else going on, otherwise the ACLU if nobody else would be all over this. Apparently it's been going on for weeks, right?

(07-17-2020 01:24 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  

(07-17-2020 12:36 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  Feds have been in Portland for the last two weeks.

Quote:Protests in Oregon's largest city following the police killing of George Floyd have continued for 47 days. In the past two weeks, federal officers sent to Portland by the Trump administration have escalated tensions, particularly after an officer with the U.S. Marshals Service fired a less-lethal round at a protester’s head on July 11, critically injuring him.

The head of DHS was speaking to them today.

https://twitter.com/DHS_Wolf/status/1284095535067136002

From his Twitter account:

I can see twitter... maybe there is something in there that gives more proof. I'm going from the 'unmarked' comment.

Them being in town and them engaging in these tactics are not the same thing. There is a Portland office of the FBI, but that doesn't mean that if you're being wiretapped, that it's the FBI doing it.

Quote:

Quote:I guess there is a small chance that the guys video taped arent feds and are military cosplayers and that the person interviewed by OPB is lying.

[quote]Blinded by his hat, in an unmarked minivan full of armed people dressed in camouflage and body armor who hadn’t identified themselves, Pettibone said he was driven around downtown before being unloaded inside a building. He wouldn’t learn until after his release that he had been inside the federal courthouse.
“It was basically a process of facing many walls and corners as they patted me down and took my picture and rummaged through my belongings,” Pettibone said. “One of them said, ‘This is a whole lot of nothing.’”

Remember when you said you had no idea how we got sideways with each other? This is how. I see the above as unnecessarily condescending/snarky.

If he's lying, he certainly wouldn't be the first person to do so... and OPB not the first to fall for it. I certainly find it odd that someone engaging in what I suspect most people would consider such overt violations of our civil liberties would openly ADMIT that to him.

My greater question was, if this is taking place in a liberal town like Portland whose leadership has 'defunded the police'... and have openly defied the Feds before by announcing that they are a 'sanctuary state'.... WHY hasn't the Portland police or government or governor issued a formal complaint about its citizens being harassed and terrorized by Federal officials, NOT on Federal property. Heck, I'd expect them to do so even if the entire event took place on Federal property.



Summary... I think this is a travesty as reported... I am convinced that the story you've been given is vastly too simple... There MUST be something else going on, otherwise the ACLU if nobody else would be all over this. Apparently it's been going on for weeks, right?

This literally just came to the public's attention this morning - so I don't think the lack of public comment/action is a reason to doubt the veracity of the story. Federal officials have been in town for two weeks, but it is just being made public that these pick ups have been occurring. If you look at the video, and the photo on Twitter, you'll notice that the uniforms appear to match, which are associated with the Feds (US Customs and Border Protection).

And I'm sorry you felt there was snark or condescension intended in that comment, but I posted the original article describing the situation which was titled "Federal Law Enforcement Use Unmarked Vehicles To Grab Protesters Off Portland Streets," and frankly, the evidence looks pretty clear that federal agents are picking people up. I would understand if the question was about whether or not the person picked up did something to warrant it, but it seems strange to me to question this, without concrete evidence indicating these may not be federal officials. Plus, I didn't find my comment very snarky or condescending in comparison to the tone in plenty of other posts on this board...

(07-17-2020 01:53 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(07-17-2020 01:24 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  [quote='RiceLad15' pid='16908399' dateline='1595007375']

Feds have been in Portland for the last two weeks.

Quote:Protests in Oregon's largest city following the police killing of George Floyd have continued for 47 days. In the past two weeks, federal officers sent to Portland by the Trump administration have escalated tensions, particularly after an officer with the U.S. Marshals Service fired a less-lethal round at a protester’s head on July 11, critically injuring him.

The head of DHS was speaking to them today.

https://twitter.com/DHS_Wolf/status/1284095535067136002

From his Twitter account:

I can see twitter... maybe there is something in there that gives more proof. I'm going from the 'unmarked' comment.

Them being in town and them engaging in these tactics are not the same thing. There is a Portland office of the FBI, but that doesn't mean that if you're being wiretapped, that it's the FBI doing it.

Quote:

Quote:I guess there is a small chance that the guys video taped arent feds and are military cosplayers and that the person interviewed by OPB is lying.

[quote]Blinded by his hat, in an unmarked minivan full of armed people dressed in camouflage and body armor who hadn’t identified themselves, Pettibone said he was driven around downtown before being unloaded inside a building. He wouldn’t learn until after his release that he had been inside the federal courthouse.
“It was basically a process of facing many walls and corners as they patted me down and took my picture and rummaged through my belongings,” Pettibone said. “One of them said, ‘This is a whole lot of nothing.’”

Remember when you said you had no idea how we got sideways with each other? This is how. I see the above as unnecessarily condescending/snarky.

If he's lying, he certainly wouldn't be the first person to do so... and OPB not the first to fall for it. I certainly find it odd that someone engaging in what I suspect most people would consider such overt violations of our civil liberties would openly ADMIT that to him.

My greater question was, if this is taking place in a liberal town like Portland whose leadership has 'defunded the police'... and have openly defied the Feds before by announcing that they are a 'sanctuary state'.... WHY hasn't the Portland police or government or governor issued a formal complaint about its citizens being harassed and terrorized by Federal officials, NOT on Federal property. Heck, I'd expect them to do so even if the entire event took place on Federal property.



Summary... I think this is a travesty as reported... I am convinced that the story you've been given is vastly too simple... There MUST be something else going on, otherwise the ACLU if nobody else would be all over this. Apparently it's been going on for weeks, right?

This literally just came to the public's attention this morning - so I don't think the lack of public comment/action is a reason to doubt the veracity of the story. Federal officials have been in town for two weeks, but it is just being made public that these pick ups have been occurring. If you look at the video, and the photo on Twitter, you'll notice that the uniforms appear to match, which are associated with the Feds (US Customs and Border Protection).

And I'm sorry you felt there was snark or condescension intended in that comment, but I posted the original article describing the situation which was titled "Federal Law Enforcement Use Unmarked Vehicles To Grab Protesters Off Portland Streets," and frankly, the evidence looks pretty clear that federal agents are picking people up. I would understand if the question was about whether or not the person picked up did something to warrant it, but it seems strange to me to question this, without concrete evidence indicating these may not be federal officials. Plus, I didn't find my comment very snarky or condescending in comparison to the tone in plenty of other posts on this board...
[/quote]

I haven't seen this yet on the antiTrump MSM. Sounds like the type of thing CNN would jump on with both feet.

(07-17-2020 10:56 AM)georgewebb Wrote:  Regarding tax policy: what do you guys think the tax rates should be on the various types of taxes: earned income, capital gains, property, sales, excise, etc.?

My experience is that almost no politician or commentator has a principled answer to this question. The only answers they seem capable of giving is a reflexive "higher than now" or "lower than now".

About the only person I have ever seen give a definitive proposal is Owl #s.

(07-17-2020 01:53 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  This literally just came to the public's attention this morning - so I don't think the lack of public comment/action is a reason to doubt the veracity of the story. Federal officials have been in town for two weeks, but it is just being made public that these pick ups have been occurring. If you look at the video, and the photo on Twitter, you'll notice that the uniforms appear to match, which are associated with the Feds (US Customs and Border Protection).

And I'm sorry you felt there was snark or condescension intended in that comment, but I posted the original article describing the situation which was titled "Federal Law Enforcement Use Unmarked Vehicles To Grab Protesters Off Portland Streets," and frankly, the evidence looks pretty clear that federal agents are picking people up. I would understand if the question was about whether or not the person picked up did something to warrant it, but it seems strange to me to question this, without concrete evidence indicating these may not be federal officials. Plus, I didn't find my comment very snarky or condescending in comparison to the tone in plenty of other posts on this board...

First let me say that my previous comment was supposed to say that I can NOT see Twitter.... so I haven't seen anything.

If the uniforms 'appear to match' those of known federal agencies, then they aren't unidentified. I hope you can understand the lack of consistency in those comments.

Now let me address your last paragraph

1) Here is what you said....
I guess there is a small chance that the guys video taped arent feds and are military cosplayers and that the person interviewed by OPB is lying.

Perhaps it is a generational thing... but this reads intentionally condescending, since nobody remotely suggested that it was 'cosplay'.... and your 'apology' reads like... I'm sorry you don't share the idea of how ridiculous it sounds that they be anything but Feds.

As for posting the original article, that makes no difference to the above... so I don't understand why it is a 'but' to your comment.

2) the evidence you showed me was that 'feds had been there for 2 weeks', which of course ignores that the feds have been there for, IDK, 50 years? and then one guys report where he says they told him he was at a federal building, and that it was mostly nothing that they randomly pulled him off the streets, put a bag over his head and drove him to an undisclosed location.

3) you still haven't really attempted to address the lack of an anti-trump, anti-federal government (under Trump anyway) local response... but instead NPR is apparently leading the charge on this one.

I SERIOUSLY doubt if heavily armed feds are running around in unmarked vehicles, wearing at least somewhat non-descript and certainly not clearly identifying camouflage uniforms and snatching Portland residents from the streets, and the local police haven't been informed at all. As for 'the public is just now hearing of it', I'm not talking about the public... I'm talking about the government.

Again, I seriously doubt that there isn't some local coordination... or at least an advisory... and I'm shocked that the first people to even mention it are NPR and not local public officials who apparently have dangerous feds kidnapping US citizens.

Seriously, does that really make sense to you that a place that refuses to cooperate with ICE over illegal immigrants that they have arrested locally.... would suddenly cooperate with the FBI over citizens whom they have not?

MAYBE there is more to this, perhaps MUCH more than 'the public' has been told, so far.

Let me give an example of the same facts with a different spin...

Feds in a government vehicle that doesn't say 'police' on the side, because they aren't police... pulled up... Guys in uniforms identified themselves as being federal agents of some sort... but I didn't catch (and didn't subsequently seek clarification on) specifically which branch. They told me I was being detained, brought down for questioning, whatever... and they had guns so I was scared and complied... which probably also kept me from paying attention to every detail.... They patted me down and looked in my backpack.... as I was in their custody and we are in a pandemic and i suspect spitting has been at least somewhat common, they made me wear a mask/face shield and took me to a federal facility that I didn't recognize in a part of town that I'm not familiar with, and it turns out it was the federal courthouse... I asked what it was all about and they said 'it's just routine' or something to that effect.

I believe those comments are all at least generally consistent with the 'facts', though certainly not the impression given. I certainly don't know if that happened... and am not claiming that it did.

What I'm claiming is that it makes ZERO sense that the story, as we're being told it... would first come from NPR (OPB) and not the Governor of Oregon or Mayor of Portland or police chief etc etc... unless they KNEW what was going on and at least tacitly agreed to it.

If the FBI did this in NYC, I'd expect Cuomo, Deblasio, Bloomberg and Biden to be ALL OVER it.

(07-17-2020 05:44 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  First let me say that my previous comment was supposed to say that I can NOT see Twitter....

It seems to me that about half the time I inadvertently leave out a word from a post that word is "not".

Funny, it is never a word I accidentally double double up.

Maybe I am just a negative person.

Oops, I meant, maybe I am just NOT a negative person.

hence my name.

(07-17-2020 12:44 PM)mrbig Wrote:  

(07-16-2020 08:29 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  That's what bugs me about so many automatic straight ticket democrats ... is that they will gladly let the socialists lead this country down the soviet path, even though they don't favor that.

Yes why the straight-ticket democrats nominated **checks notes** Joe Biden over Bernie Sanders as the Democratic nominee. Nice story.

Kind of runs contrary to why Biden has co-opted the majority of .... *checks notes* ....Sanders' positions as his positions.

If the above hadnt happened your statement above might be on point.

(07-17-2020 10:52 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(07-17-2020 09:29 AM)tanqtonic Wrote:  

(07-17-2020 08:34 AM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(07-17-2020 08:27 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  Seeing reporting out of Portland of federal troops hopping out of vehicles and grabbing people in the streets. Freaky-deaky to say the least, especially when you see a video of it.

Quote:A block west of Chapman Square, Pettibone and O’Shea bumped into a group of people who warned them that people in camouflage were driving around the area in unmarked minivans grabbing people off the street.

“So that was terrifying to hear,” Pettibone said.

They had barely made it half a block when an unmarked minivan pulled up in front of them.

“I see guys in camo,” O’Shea said. “Four or five of them pop out, open the door and it was just like, ‘Oh ****. I don’t know who you are or what you want with us.’”

Federal law enforcement officers have been using unmarked vehicles to drive around downtown Portland and detain protesters since at least July 14. Personal accounts and multiple videos posted online show the officers driving up to people, detaining individuals with no explanation of why they are being arrested, and driving off.

https://www.opb.org/news/article/federal...rotesters/

Very disturbing. I can't imaging the Libertarians here are fans of this.

I definitely would like to learn more. One issue that stands out is the free interchange of the terms 'arrest' and 'detain' in fhe article, which are very separate concepts.

If one reads beyond the items being implied, this could be a Federal equivalent of the widely used local anti gang practices that involve stopping, questioniing, and creating a photo record of suspected gang members. Albeit maybe on unhealthy steroids.

As noted, I would prefer to have this fleshed out more prior to rendering a personal opinion.

One big distinction, I would imagine, is that in the gang detaining, the police officers identified themselves at some point. The reporting I’ve seen indicates that one person grabbed still doesn’t know if they were even technically arrested.

I think we can agree, without background, that the practice of government officials in full blown tactical gear, jumping out of unmarked vehicles, without any identification, and grabbing individuals off the street, should only be a tactic used in VERY extreme and unusual circumstances.

Having a city being coopted for "Autonomous Zones" really doesnt fit the paradigm of 'normal circumstances' in my book. Note what has happened in the city in question (Portland) every night for the last three weeks, the new attempt there for a Seattle-type autonomous zone, and the pressure that Trump exerted on Seattle to clean theirs up, *and* the pressure exerted to get Portland to do the same.

As for "no identification", the videos I have seen via twitter clearly note in BIG YELLOW letters "Police" and the persons in tactical gear have DHS shoulder patches.

Again, all in all, I am going to see what real facts flesh out here first.

(07-17-2020 06:58 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:  

(07-17-2020 12:44 PM)mrbig Wrote:  

(07-16-2020 08:29 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  That's what bugs me about so many automatic straight ticket democrats ... is that they will gladly let the socialists lead this country down the soviet path, even though they don't favor that.

Yes why the straight-ticket democrats nominated **checks notes** Joe Biden over Bernie Sanders as the Democratic nominee. Nice story.

Kind of runs contrary to why Biden has co-opted the majority of .... *checks notes* ....Sanders' positions as his positions.

If the above hadnt happened your statement above might be on point.

It makes perfect sense to me...

They don't like the idea and the experience that republicans have had, having an 'outsider' to the party elite win the nomination and direct the party for the next 4 to 8 years... so you nominate a party insider who then does his best 'outsider' impression to try and bring in those voters.

Neither Bernie nor Biden supporters are likely to prefer Trump to either other option. Of course I could see Bernie voters stay home or go 3rd party... but I really can't see party Democrats (straight line Democrats) not supporting Bernie if he won the party nomination. That's essentially how Trump won last time.

(07-17-2020 05:44 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  

(07-17-2020 10:56 AM)georgewebb Wrote:  Regarding tax policy: what do you guys think the tax rates should be on the various types of taxes: earned income, capital gains, property, sales, excise, etc.?

My experience is that almost no politician or commentator has a principled answer to this question. The only answers they seem capable of giving is a reflexive "higher than now" or "lower than now".

About the only person I have ever seen give a definitive proposal is Owl #s.

(07-17-2020 01:53 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  This literally just came to the public's attention this morning - so I don't think the lack of public comment/action is a reason to doubt the veracity of the story. Federal officials have been in town for two weeks, but it is just being made public that these pick ups have been occurring. If you look at the video, and the photo on Twitter, you'll notice that the uniforms appear to match, which are associated with the Feds (US Customs and Border Protection).

And I'm sorry you felt there was snark or condescension intended in that comment, but I posted the original article describing the situation which was titled "Federal Law Enforcement Use Unmarked Vehicles To Grab Protesters Off Portland Streets," and frankly, the evidence looks pretty clear that federal agents are picking people up. I would understand if the question was about whether or not the person picked up did something to warrant it, but it seems strange to me to question this, without concrete evidence indicating these may not be federal officials. Plus, I didn't find my comment very snarky or condescending in comparison to the tone in plenty of other posts on this board...

First let me say that my previous comment was supposed to say that I can NOT see Twitter.... so I haven't seen anything.

If the uniforms 'appear to match' those of known federal agencies, then they aren't unidentified. I hope you can understand the lack of consistency in those comments.

Now let me address your last paragraph

1) Here is what you said....
I guess there is a small chance that the guys video taped arent feds and are military cosplayers and that the person interviewed by OPB is lying.

Perhaps it is a generational thing... but this reads intentionally condescending, since nobody remotely suggested that it was 'cosplay'.... and your 'apology' reads like... I'm sorry you don't share the idea of how ridiculous it sounds that they be anything but Feds.

As for posting the original article, that makes no difference to the above... so I don't understand why it is a 'but' to your comment.

2) the evidence you showed me was that 'feds had been there for 2 weeks', which of course ignores that the feds have been there for, IDK, 50 years? and then one guys report where he says they told him he was at a federal building, and that it was mostly nothing that they randomly pulled him off the streets, put a bag over his head and drove him to an undisclosed location.

3) you still haven't really attempted to address the lack of an anti-trump, anti-federal government (under Trump anyway) local response... but instead NPR is apparently leading the charge on this one.

I SERIOUSLY doubt if heavily armed feds are running around in unmarked vehicles, wearing at least somewhat non-descript and certainly not clearly identifying camouflage uniforms and snatching Portland residents from the streets, and the local police haven't been informed at all. As for 'the public is just now hearing of it', I'm not talking about the public... I'm talking about the government.

Again, I seriously doubt that there isn't some local coordination... or at least an advisory... and I'm shocked that the first people to even mention it are NPR and not local public officials who apparently have dangerous feds kidnapping US citizens.

Seriously, does that really make sense to you that a place that refuses to cooperate with ICE over illegal immigrants that they have arrested locally.... would suddenly cooperate with the FBI over citizens whom they have not?

MAYBE there is more to this, perhaps MUCH more than 'the public' has been told, so far.

Let me give an example of the same facts with a different spin...

Feds in a government vehicle that doesn't say 'police' on the side, because they aren't police... pulled up... Guys in uniforms identified themselves as being federal agents of some sort... but I didn't catch (and didn't subsequently seek clarification on) specifically which branch. They told me I was being detained, brought down for questioning, whatever... and they had guns so I was scared and complied... which probably also kept me from paying attention to every detail.... They patted me down and looked in my backpack.... as I was in their custody and we are in a pandemic and i suspect spitting has been at least somewhat common, they made me wear a mask/face shield and took me to a federal facility that I didn't recognize in a part of town that I'm not familiar with, and it turns out it was the federal courthouse... I asked what it was all about and they said 'it's just routine' or something to that effect.

I believe those comments are all at least generally consistent with the 'facts', though certainly not the impression given. I certainly don't know if that happened... and am not claiming that it did.

What I'm claiming is that it makes ZERO sense that the story, as we're being told it... would first come from NPR (OPB) and not the Governor of Oregon or Mayor of Portland or police chief etc etc... unless they KNEW what was going on and at least tacitly agreed to it.

If the FBI did this in NYC, I'd expect Cuomo, Deblasio, Bloomberg and Biden to be ALL OVER it.

ACLU suing.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.newswee...%3Famp%3D1

DHS only claiming they aren’t identifying themselves, as they are acting against crimes against federal property.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nytimes...s.amp.html

The Mayor of Portland wasn’t invited to meet with DHS and has no interests in meeting.

https://twitter.com/tedwheeler/status/12...61761?s=21

I still don’t get it - the videos, the reports, they all appear to show federal agents in unmarked vans grabbing people without warning or identification and pulling them into the van. And we know Trump is a fan of military shows of force. It fits the current MO for the admin.

Jade Helm, but for real.

(07-17-2020 01:24 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  

(07-17-2020 12:36 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  Feds have been in Portland for the last two weeks.

Quote:Protests in Oregon's largest city following the police killing of George Floyd have continued for 47 days. In the past two weeks, federal officers sent to Portland by the Trump administration have escalated tensions, particularly after an officer with the U.S. Marshals Service fired a less-lethal round at a protester’s head on July 11, critically injuring him.

The head of DHS was speaking to them today.

https://twitter.com/DHS_Wolf/status/1284095535067136002

From his Twitter account:

I can see twitter... maybe there is something in there that gives more proof. I'm going from the 'unmarked' comment.

Them being in town and them engaging in these tactics are not the same thing. There is a Portland office of the FBI, but that doesn't mean that if you're being wiretapped, that it's the FBI doing it.

Quote:

Quote:I guess there is a small chance that the guys video taped arent feds and are military cosplayers and that the person interviewed by OPB is lying.

[quote]Blinded by his hat, in an unmarked minivan full of armed people dressed in camouflage and body armor who hadn’t identified themselves, Pettibone said he was driven around downtown before being unloaded inside a building. He wouldn’t learn until after his release that he had been inside the federal courthouse.
“It was basically a process of facing many walls and corners as they patted me down and took my picture and rummaged through my belongings,” Pettibone said. “One of them said, ‘This is a whole lot of nothing.’”

Remember when you said you had no idea how we got sideways with each other? This is how. I see the above as unnecessarily condescending/snarky.

If he's lying, he certainly wouldn't be the first person to do so... and OPB not the first to fall for it. I certainly find it odd that someone engaging in what I suspect most people would consider such overt violations of our civil liberties would openly ADMIT that to him.

My greater question was, if this is taking place in a liberal town like Portland whose leadership has 'defunded the police'... and have openly defied the Feds before by announcing that they are a 'sanctuary state'.... WHY hasn't the Portland police or government or governor issued a formal complaint about its citizens being harassed and terrorized by Federal officials, NOT on Federal property. Heck, I'd expect them to do so even if the entire event took place on Federal property.



Summary... I think this is a travesty as reported... I am convinced that the story you've been given is vastly too simple... There MUST be something else going on, otherwise the ACLU if nobody else would be all over this. Apparently it's been going on for weeks, right?

Ask for a local complaint, and you shall receive. I think that was the last item above that led to you think this was vastly too simple.

Quote: The mayor of Portland demanded Friday that President Donald Trump remove militarized federal agents he deployed to the city after some detained people on streets far from federal property they were sent to protect.

“Keep your troops in your own buildings, or have them leave our city,” Mayor Ted Wheeler said at a news conference.

https://www.houstonchronicle.com/news/ar...415037.php