(07-16-2020 01:22 PM)georgewebb Wrote:  

(07-16-2020 11:13 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(07-16-2020 10:18 AM)georgewebb Wrote:  

(07-15-2020 09:12 PM)Rice93 Wrote:  Yeah... that's what you have to do when you have a two-party system that has moved to the extremes. Moderates are left out in the cold.

Alas, from what I see in social media, the typical lament is "It's too bad the other party has become so extreme."

I hate to say it, but I still think the primary system is to blame for a lot of this. I thought it was a great idea to give, "power to the people," but it just hasn't worked well. Back when the party pros picked the candidates in the proverbial, "smoke-filled rooms," the only consideration was electability, because if the other guys won, you weren't going to get the spoils of victory. So the incentive was to pick centrists who could pick up votes from the independents and even the other side. Look at Truman-Dewey, or Ike-Stevenson twice, or Kennedy-Nixon, and they weren't nearly as far apart on issues as today's candidates are.

Indeed, an astonishing feature of the Kennedy-Nixon debates (for those who actually watch or listen to them, rather than than just accepting the received wisdom about Kennedy's charisma) is how nearly identical the candidates' positions were -- and in particular, how staunchly anti-Communist they both were, especially with respect to Red China.

The popular press forgets just how hawkish Kennedy was.

I'm reading Brinkley's book on the Moonshot right now, and that's been one of the recurring comments when discussing Kennedy's early years as a college student and Congressman then Senator.

(07-16-2020 02:49 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(07-16-2020 01:22 PM)georgewebb Wrote:  

(07-16-2020 11:13 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(07-16-2020 10:18 AM)georgewebb Wrote:  

(07-15-2020 09:12 PM)Rice93 Wrote:  Yeah... that's what you have to do when you have a two-party system that has moved to the extremes. Moderates are left out in the cold.

Alas, from what I see in social media, the typical lament is "It's too bad the other party has become so extreme."

I hate to say it, but I still think the primary system is to blame for a lot of this. I thought it was a great idea to give, "power to the people," but it just hasn't worked well. Back when the party pros picked the candidates in the proverbial, "smoke-filled rooms," the only consideration was electability, because if the other guys won, you weren't going to get the spoils of victory. So the incentive was to pick centrists who could pick up votes from the independents and even the other side. Look at Truman-Dewey, or Ike-Stevenson twice, or Kennedy-Nixon, and they weren't nearly as far apart on issues as today's candidates are.

Indeed, an astonishing feature of the Kennedy-Nixon debates (for those who actually watch or listen to them, rather than than just accepting the received wisdom about Kennedy's charisma) is how nearly identical the candidates' positions were -- and in particular, how staunchly anti-Communist they both were, especially with respect to Red China.

The popular press forgets just how hawkish Kennedy was.

I'm reading Brinkley's book on the Moonshot right now, and that's been one of the recurring comments when discussing Kennedy's early years as a college student and Congressman then Senator.

I have consistently said I want a strong foreign policy and sensible tax/fiscal policy. Run JFK instead of Biden and I will vote Democrat,

(07-16-2020 01:32 PM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(07-16-2020 01:27 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(07-16-2020 01:17 PM)Rice93 Wrote:  I'm pretty moderate on quite a few issues, actually. Probably the ones where I am farther left are the ones that I comment on.
You probably don't see me commenting on, for example, tax policy.

Moderate on some issues and far left on others is not moderate. Left on some issues and right on others could average out to moderate. But moderate on some and left on others averages out to left.

Just for information, what are your basic thoughts on tax policy?

I fall much more on the side of people who work hard and earn a good living should not be taken to the woodshed by the IRS than the Bernie Sanders (Sanders’es? Sanders’s? Help, George!) of the world.

*edit* If it helps clarify my position... my picks for Dem nominee were Klobacher or Buttigieg.

That (the tax issue) is comforting. What is your stance on the call for a 40-45% capital gains tax from your team?

(07-16-2020 05:54 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:  

(07-16-2020 01:32 PM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(07-16-2020 01:27 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(07-16-2020 01:17 PM)Rice93 Wrote:  I'm pretty moderate on quite a few issues, actually. Probably the ones where I am farther left are the ones that I comment on.
You probably don't see me commenting on, for example, tax policy.

Moderate on some issues and far left on others is not moderate. Left on some issues and right on others could average out to moderate. But moderate on some and left on others averages out to left.

Just for information, what are your basic thoughts on tax policy?

I fall much more on the side of people who work hard and earn a good living should not be taken to the woodshed by the IRS than the Bernie Sanders (Sanders’es? Sanders’s? Help, George!) of the world.

*edit* If it helps clarify my position... my picks for Dem nominee were Klobacher or Buttigieg.

That (the tax issue) is comforting. What is your stance on the call for a 40-45% capital gains tax from your team?

THIS is one of those things that drives me batty. I had a seven figure deal deal that just went south. The possibility of a cap gains increase in the new socialist regime was a factor.

(07-16-2020 05:54 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:  

(07-16-2020 01:32 PM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(07-16-2020 01:27 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(07-16-2020 01:17 PM)Rice93 Wrote:  I'm pretty moderate on quite a few issues, actually. Probably the ones where I am farther left are the ones that I comment on.
You probably don't see me commenting on, for example, tax policy.

Moderate on some issues and far left on others is not moderate. Left on some issues and right on others could average out to moderate. But moderate on some and left on others averages out to left.

Just for information, what are your basic thoughts on tax policy?

I fall much more on the side of people who work hard and earn a good living should not be taken to the woodshed by the IRS than the Bernie Sanders (Sanders’es? Sanders’s? Help, George!) of the world.

*edit* If it helps clarify my position... my picks for Dem nominee were Klobacher or Buttigieg.

That (the tax issue) is comforting. What is your stance on the call for a 40-45% capital gains tax from your team?

THIS is one of those things that drives me batty. I had a seven figure deal deal that just went south. The possibility of a cap gains increase in the new socialist regime was a factor. I was looking to that money to keep me and my sister financially secure.

(07-16-2020 07:00 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(07-16-2020 05:54 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:  

(07-16-2020 01:32 PM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(07-16-2020 01:27 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(07-16-2020 01:17 PM)Rice93 Wrote:  I'm pretty moderate on quite a few issues, actually. Probably the ones where I am farther left are the ones that I comment on.
You probably don't see me commenting on, for example, tax policy.

Moderate on some issues and far left on others is not moderate. Left on some issues and right on others could average out to moderate. But moderate on some and left on others averages out to left.

Just for information, what are your basic thoughts on tax policy?

I fall much more on the side of people who work hard and earn a good living should not be taken to the woodshed by the IRS than the Bernie Sanders (Sanders’es? Sanders’s? Help, George!) of the world.

*edit* If it helps clarify my position... my picks for Dem nominee were Klobacher or Buttigieg.

That (the tax issue) is comforting. What is your stance on the call for a 40-45% capital gains tax from your team?

THIS is one of those things that drives me batty. I had a seven figure deal deal that just went south. The possibility of a cap gains increase in the new socialist regime was a factor. I was looking to that money to keep me and my sister financially secure.

How dare you think that. You didnt work for that.

(07-16-2020 01:32 PM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(07-16-2020 01:27 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(07-16-2020 01:17 PM)Rice93 Wrote:  I'm pretty moderate on quite a few issues, actually. Probably the ones where I am farther left are the ones that I comment on.
You probably don't see me commenting on, for example, tax policy.

Moderate on some issues and far left on others is not moderate. Left on some issues and right on others could average out to moderate. But moderate on some and left on others averages out to left.
Just for information, what are your basic thoughts on tax policy?

I fall much more on the side of people who work hard and earn a good living should not be taken to the woodshed by the IRS than the Bernie Sanders (Sanders’es? Sanders’s? Help, George!) of the world.

But you'll still vote for people who do espouse the Sanders tax positions, as long as they are democrats, right?

That's my problem. Democrats just have so many issue positions, including taxes, that are absolute drop-dead show-stoppers for me, that there is no way I can vote for Biden or any other democrat, and if they take over next year, then I have to question very seriously my desire to remain in this country.

(07-16-2020 07:42 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(07-16-2020 01:32 PM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(07-16-2020 01:27 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(07-16-2020 01:17 PM)Rice93 Wrote:  I'm pretty moderate on quite a few issues, actually. Probably the ones where I am farther left are the ones that I comment on.
You probably don't see me commenting on, for example, tax policy.

Moderate on some issues and far left on others is not moderate. Left on some issues and right on others could average out to moderate. But moderate on some and left on others averages out to left.
Just for information, what are your basic thoughts on tax policy?

I fall much more on the side of people who work hard and earn a good living should not be taken to the woodshed by the IRS than the Bernie Sanders (Sanders’es? Sanders’s? Help, George!) of the world.

But you'll still vote for people who do espouse the Sanders tax positions, as long as they are democrats, right?

That's what bugs me about so many automatic straight ticket democrats (maybe not you so much, 93) is that they will gladly let the socialists lead this country down the soviet path, even though they don't favor that.

I understand that tax/fiscal policy is not a high priority for 93 and the other leftists here, but it should be.

(07-16-2020 02:53 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(07-16-2020 02:49 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(07-16-2020 01:22 PM)georgewebb Wrote:  

(07-16-2020 11:13 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(07-16-2020 10:18 AM)georgewebb Wrote:  Alas, from what I see in social media, the typical lament is "It's too bad the other party has become so extreme."

I hate to say it, but I still think the primary system is to blame for a lot of this. I thought it was a great idea to give, "power to the people," but it just hasn't worked well. Back when the party pros picked the candidates in the proverbial, "smoke-filled rooms," the only consideration was electability, because if the other guys won, you weren't going to get the spoils of victory. So the incentive was to pick centrists who could pick up votes from the independents and even the other side. Look at Truman-Dewey, or Ike-Stevenson twice, or Kennedy-Nixon, and they weren't nearly as far apart on issues as today's candidates are.

Indeed, an astonishing feature of the Kennedy-Nixon debates (for those who actually watch or listen to them, rather than than just accepting the received wisdom about Kennedy's charisma) is how nearly identical the candidates' positions were -- and in particular, how staunchly anti-Communist they both were, especially with respect to Red China.

The popular press forgets just how hawkish Kennedy was.

I'm reading Brinkley's book on the Moonshot right now, and that's been one of the recurring comments when discussing Kennedy's early years as a college student and Congressman then Senator.

I have consistently said I want a strong foreign policy and sensible tax/fiscal policy. Run JFK instead of Biden and I will vote Democrat,

JFK will probably be voting for Biden this fall

(07-16-2020 09:28 PM)westsidewolf1989 Wrote:  

(07-16-2020 02:53 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(07-16-2020 02:49 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(07-16-2020 01:22 PM)georgewebb Wrote:  

(07-16-2020 11:13 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  I hate to say it, but I still think the primary system is to blame for a lot of this. I thought it was a great idea to give, "power to the people," but it just hasn't worked well. Back when the party pros picked the candidates in the proverbial, "smoke-filled rooms," the only consideration was electability, because if the other guys won, you weren't going to get the spoils of victory. So the incentive was to pick centrists who could pick up votes from the independents and even the other side. Look at Truman-Dewey, or Ike-Stevenson twice, or Kennedy-Nixon, and they weren't nearly as far apart on issues as today's candidates are.

Indeed, an astonishing feature of the Kennedy-Nixon debates (for those who actually watch or listen to them, rather than than just accepting the received wisdom about Kennedy's charisma) is how nearly identical the candidates' positions were -- and in particular, how staunchly anti-Communist they both were, especially with respect to Red China.

The popular press forgets just how hawkish Kennedy was.

I'm reading Brinkley's book on the Moonshot right now, and that's been one of the recurring comments when discussing Kennedy's early years as a college student and Congressman then Senator.

I have consistently said I want a strong foreign policy and sensible tax/fiscal policy. Run JFK instead of Biden and I will vote Democrat,

JFK will probably be voting for Biden this fall

in at least 5 states.

(07-16-2020 09:57 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(07-16-2020 09:28 PM)westsidewolf1989 Wrote:  

(07-16-2020 02:53 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(07-16-2020 02:49 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(07-16-2020 01:22 PM)georgewebb Wrote:  Indeed, an astonishing feature of the Kennedy-Nixon debates (for those who actually watch or listen to them, rather than than just accepting the received wisdom about Kennedy's charisma) is how nearly identical the candidates' positions were -- and in particular, how staunchly anti-Communist they both were, especially with respect to Red China.

The popular press forgets just how hawkish Kennedy was.

I'm reading Brinkley's book on the Moonshot right now, and that's been one of the recurring comments when discussing Kennedy's early years as a college student and Congressman then Senator.

I have consistently said I want a strong foreign policy and sensible tax/fiscal policy. Run JFK instead of Biden and I will vote Democrat,

JFK will probably be voting for Biden this fall

in at least 5 states.

Multiple times in those of the 5 espousing no id voting.

(07-16-2020 05:54 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:  

(07-16-2020 01:32 PM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(07-16-2020 01:27 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(07-16-2020 01:17 PM)Rice93 Wrote:  I'm pretty moderate on quite a few issues, actually. Probably the ones where I am farther left are the ones that I comment on.
You probably don't see me commenting on, for example, tax policy.

Moderate on some issues and far left on others is not moderate. Left on some issues and right on others could average out to moderate. But moderate on some and left on others averages out to left.

Just for information, what are your basic thoughts on tax policy?

I fall much more on the side of people who work hard and earn a good living should not be taken to the woodshed by the IRS than the Bernie Sanders (Sanders’es? Sanders’s? Help, George!) of the world.

*edit* If it helps clarify my position... my picks for Dem nominee were Klobacher or Buttigieg.

That (the tax issue) is comforting. What is your stance on the call for a 40-45% capital gains tax from your team?

I’m solidly opposed to that idea.

(07-17-2020 07:00 AM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(07-16-2020 05:54 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:  

(07-16-2020 01:32 PM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(07-16-2020 01:27 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(07-16-2020 01:17 PM)Rice93 Wrote:  I'm pretty moderate on quite a few issues, actually. Probably the ones where I am farther left are the ones that I comment on.
You probably don't see me commenting on, for example, tax policy.

Moderate on some issues and far left on others is not moderate. Left on some issues and right on others could average out to moderate. But moderate on some and left on others averages out to left.

Just for information, what are your basic thoughts on tax policy?

I fall much more on the side of people who work hard and earn a good living should not be taken to the woodshed by the IRS than the Bernie Sanders (Sanders’es? Sanders’s? Help, George!) of the world.

*edit* If it helps clarify my position... my picks for Dem nominee were Klobacher or Buttigieg.

That (the tax issue) is comforting. What is your stance on the call for a 40-45% capital gains tax from your team?

I’m solidly opposed to that idea.

So why are you a Democrat?

Numbers always lists his 'drop dead" issues with the Democratic Party? What are your 'drop dead' issues with the Republican Party?

As for me, my priorities are Tax/fiscal policy and foreign policy, and the Democrats come down on the wrong side of both. I consider myself a conservative, though, not a Republican - they are just the lesser evil.

Seeing reporting out of Portland of federal troops hopping out of vehicles and grabbing people in the streets. Freaky-deaky to say the least, especially when you see a video of it.

Quote:A block west of Chapman Square, Pettibone and O’Shea bumped into a group of people who warned them that people in camouflage were driving around the area in unmarked minivans grabbing people off the street.

“So that was terrifying to hear,” Pettibone said.

They had barely made it half a block when an unmarked minivan pulled up in front of them.

“I see guys in camo,” O’Shea said. “Four or five of them pop out, open the door and it was just like, ‘Oh ****. I don’t know who you are or what you want with us.’”

Federal law enforcement officers have been using unmarked vehicles to drive around downtown Portland and detain protesters since at least July 14. Personal accounts and multiple videos posted online show the officers driving up to people, detaining individuals with no explanation of why they are being arrested, and driving off.

https://www.opb.org/news/article/federal...rotesters/

(07-17-2020 08:27 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  Seeing reporting out of Portland of federal troops hopping out of vehicles and grabbing people in the streets. Freaky-deaky to say the least, especially when you see a video of it.

Quote:A block west of Chapman Square, Pettibone and O’Shea bumped into a group of people who warned them that people in camouflage were driving around the area in unmarked minivans grabbing people off the street.

“So that was terrifying to hear,” Pettibone said.

They had barely made it half a block when an unmarked minivan pulled up in front of them.

“I see guys in camo,” O’Shea said. “Four or five of them pop out, open the door and it was just like, ‘Oh ****. I don’t know who you are or what you want with us.’”

Federal law enforcement officers have been using unmarked vehicles to drive around downtown Portland and detain protesters since at least July 14. Personal accounts and multiple videos posted online show the officers driving up to people, detaining individuals with no explanation of why they are being arrested, and driving off.

https://www.opb.org/news/article/federal...rotesters/

Very disturbing. I can't imaging the Libertarians here are fans of this.

(07-17-2020 07:07 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(07-17-2020 07:00 AM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(07-16-2020 05:54 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:  

(07-16-2020 01:32 PM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(07-16-2020 01:27 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  Moderate on some issues and far left on others is not moderate. Left on some issues and right on others could average out to moderate. But moderate on some and left on others averages out to left.

Just for information, what are your basic thoughts on tax policy?

I fall much more on the side of people who work hard and earn a good living should not be taken to the woodshed by the IRS than the Bernie Sanders (Sanders’es? Sanders’s? Help, George!) of the world.

*edit* If it helps clarify my position... my picks for Dem nominee were Klobacher or Buttigieg.

That (the tax issue) is comforting. What is your stance on the call for a 40-45% capital gains tax from your team?

I’m solidly opposed to that idea.

So why are you a Democrat?

Numbers always lists his 'drop dead" issues with the Democratic Party? What are your 'drop dead' issues with the Republican Party?

As for me, my priorities are Tax/fiscal policy and foreign policy, and the Democrats come down on the wrong side of both. I consider myself a conservative, though, not a Republican - they are just the lesser evil.

Super busy day but top of my head: climate issues, gun control, women's right to choose, equality (race/LGBTQ, etc)

(07-17-2020 08:52 AM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(07-17-2020 07:07 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(07-17-2020 07:00 AM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(07-16-2020 05:54 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:  

(07-16-2020 01:32 PM)Rice93 Wrote:  I fall much more on the side of people who work hard and earn a good living should not be taken to the woodshed by the IRS than the Bernie Sanders (Sanders’es? Sanders’s? Help, George!) of the world.

*edit* If it helps clarify my position... my picks for Dem nominee were Klobacher or Buttigieg.

That (the tax issue) is comforting. What is your stance on the call for a 40-45% capital gains tax from your team?

I’m solidly opposed to that idea.

So why are you a Democrat?

Numbers always lists his 'drop dead" issues with the Democratic Party? What are your 'drop dead' issues with the Republican Party?

As for me, my priorities are Tax/fiscal policy and foreign policy, and the Democrats come down on the wrong side of both. I consider myself a conservative, though, not a Republican - they are just the lesser evil.

Super busy day but top of my head: climate issues, gun control, women's right to choose, equality (race/LGBTQ, etc)

And from my end, the constant slapping of any tax increase as being a movement towards communism/socialism just makes the argument ring absolutely hollow - so I don't make the simple act of advocating for tax increases a drop-dead show stopper.

I frankly have zero issue with the idea of increasing long-term capital gains taxes or changing what the definition of long-term and short-term gains are (i.e. extending long-term gains to being assets held for greater than 3 years). I agree with keeping them below income tax rates to encourage investment.

(07-17-2020 08:34 AM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(07-17-2020 08:27 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  Seeing reporting out of Portland of federal troops hopping out of vehicles and grabbing people in the streets. Freaky-deaky to say the least, especially when you see a video of it.

Quote:A block west of Chapman Square, Pettibone and O’Shea bumped into a group of people who warned them that people in camouflage were driving around the area in unmarked minivans grabbing people off the street.

“So that was terrifying to hear,” Pettibone said.

They had barely made it half a block when an unmarked minivan pulled up in front of them.

“I see guys in camo,” O’Shea said. “Four or five of them pop out, open the door and it was just like, ‘Oh ****. I don’t know who you are or what you want with us.’”

Federal law enforcement officers have been using unmarked vehicles to drive around downtown Portland and detain protesters since at least July 14. Personal accounts and multiple videos posted online show the officers driving up to people, detaining individuals with no explanation of why they are being arrested, and driving off.

https://www.opb.org/news/article/federal...rotesters/

Very disturbing. I can't imaging the Libertarians here are fans of this.

I definitely would like to learn more. One issue that stands out is the free interchange of the terms 'arrest' and 'detain' in fhe article, which are very separate concepts.

If one reads beyond the items being implied, this could be a Federal equivalent of the widely used local anti gang practices that involve stopping, questioniing, and creating a photo record of suspected gang members. Albeit maybe on unhealthy steroids.

As noted, I would prefer to have this fleshed out more prior to rendering a personal opinion.

(07-17-2020 09:06 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(07-17-2020 08:52 AM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(07-17-2020 07:07 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(07-17-2020 07:00 AM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(07-16-2020 05:54 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:  That (the tax issue) is comforting. What is your stance on the call for a 40-45% capital gains tax from your team?

I’m solidly opposed to that idea.

So why are you a Democrat?

Numbers always lists his 'drop dead" issues with the Democratic Party? What are your 'drop dead' issues with the Republican Party?

As for me, my priorities are Tax/fiscal policy and foreign policy, and the Democrats come down on the wrong side of both. I consider myself a conservative, though, not a Republican - they are just the lesser evil.

Super busy day but top of my head: climate issues, gun control, women's right to choose, equality (race/LGBTQ, etc)

And from my end, the constant slapping of any tax increase as being a movement towards communism/socialism just makes the argument ring absolutely hollow - so I don't make the simple act of advocating for tax increases a drop-dead show stopper.

I frankly have zero issue with the idea of increasing long-term capital gains taxes or changing what the definition of long-term and short-term gains are (i.e. extending long-term gains to being assets held for greater than 3 years). I agree with keeping them below income tax rates to encourage investment.

Most collectivists dont equate larger taxes with the basic building block of socialism.

Quote:Super busy day but top of my head: climate issues, gun control, women's right to choose, equality (race/LGBTQ, etc)

Without any attached incendiary, what is your preferred ldvel of gun control?

At that level of abstraction, since I am for restrictions on surface to air missiles and full auto weapons, I too might be pro 'gun control',