(07-16-2020 09:12 AM)Claw Wrote:  

(07-16-2020 09:08 AM)GoodOwl Wrote:  

(07-15-2020 10:24 AM)MileHighBronco Wrote:  This is the most extensive summary on the subject of masking that I've seen anywhere.

Quote:The foregoing data show that masks serve more as instruments of obstruction of normal breathing, rather than as effective barriers to pathogens. Therefore, masks should not be used by the general public, either by adults or children, and their limitations as prophylaxis against pathogens should also be considered in medical settings.

But, they make Dem idiots feel better. Its all about their hurting their poor wittle feewings. Dems don't believe in science.

(PS, thanks for keeping us informed with actual scientific data that shows the mask-culture is total BS. +3 again MHB.)

It's worse than that. A cloth mask, like most people are wearing, actually INCREASES your risk of contracting flu-like illnesses.

==============================================
Healthcare workers wearing cloth masks had significantly higher rates of influenza-like illness after four weeks of continuous on-the-job use, when compared to controls.
==============================================

yeah, for the general public they restrict breathing and make you get sicker overall.

Artist: General Public
Album: All The Rage
Song: "Limited Balance"
January 28, 1984 I.R.S. Records

(07-16-2020 08:22 AM)vandiver49 Wrote:  

(07-16-2020 07:17 AM)Redwingtom Wrote:  

(07-15-2020 10:34 PM)TripleA Wrote:  

(07-15-2020 02:14 PM)Redwingtom Wrote:  

(07-15-2020 01:25 PM)TripleA Wrote:  So the Dems had a better plan for handling Covid?

Well, they're not in charge, but nearly every country in the fricking world seemed to come up with a better plan.

You realize we have 50 states, right? All with governors, last I checked.

Yeah, Trump really screwed up NY and NJ, still the greatest number of our deaths, by far. Sending them a hospital ship and converting the Javits Center. Neither of which they barely used.

And it wasn't Trump who forced all the Covid patients into nursing homes. Do you actually think through things before you post?

You realize a virus does not observe state boundary lines, right?

What organization have you ever worked in where the leader lets 50 direct reports all come up with their own policy for a critical mission for the whole organization?

And cut the crap with the nursing homes. Especially since those governors IIRC have admitted the mistake and corrected course. But TBH, this could also be attributed to a failure of leadership from Washington, leaving them to find solutions on their own. The Maryland governor just addressed this today in a scathing op-ed.

There is no objective analysis anywhere that has concluded that this administration has done a good job, but that doesn't stop your unapologetic and unempathetic orange overlord from saying so...continually.

Yet you still cannot produce a cogent plan that should have been implemented or what executive powers would have enabled him to act with such authority. The fact that governors are blaming the president is indicative of their leadership deficiencies.

That's it? A anonymous internet message board poster can't put forth a national policy for a country to address a global pandemic of a novel virus, so clearly one doesn't exist? Do you even listen to yourself? I'm not an infectious disease expert, nor do I have billions of dollars and scores of experts at my disposal. But you're right...there clearly is no way forward for any country on the planet to address this as every other country is still breaking daily case records.

We're months in and this administration STILL has no plan. It's a failure. But keep deflecting this on to anyone but the cult leader. It's so on brand.

(07-16-2020 07:17 AM)Redwingtom Wrote:  

(07-15-2020 10:34 PM)TripleA Wrote:  

(07-15-2020 02:14 PM)Redwingtom Wrote:  

(07-15-2020 01:25 PM)TripleA Wrote:  

(07-15-2020 10:42 AM)Redwingtom Wrote:  Nobody ever said masks were the magic bullet, but in the absence of any coherent policy from this administration to effectively deal with this pandemic, what the **** else are we left with?

So the Dems had a better plan for handling Covid?

Well, they're not in charge, but nearly every country in the fricking world seemed to come up with a better plan.

You realize we have 50 states, right? All with governors, last I checked.

Yeah, Trump really screwed up NY and NJ, still the greatest number of our deaths, by far. Sending them a hospital ship and converting the Javits Center. Neither of which they barely used.

And it wasn't Trump who forced all the Covid patients into nursing homes. Do you actually think through things before you post?

You realize a virus does not observe state boundary lines, right?

What organization have you ever worked in where the leader lets 50 direct reports all come up with their own policy for a critical mission for the whole organization?

And cut the crap with the nursing homes. Especially since those governors IIRC have admitted the mistake and corrected course. But TBH, this could also be attributed to a failure of leadership from Washington, leaving them to find solutions on their own. The Maryland governor just addressed this today in a scathing op-ed.

There is no objective analysis anywhere that has concluded that this administration has done a good job, but that doesn't stop your unapologetic and unempathetic orange overlord from saying so...continually.

Since when are governors direct reports to the president? You do understand that the situation in New York may be different than say Wyoming so it might be best to let the locals implement what works best for them within the confines of the state and federal constitution.
You seem to think Democrat governors are incapable of making decisions as to the best course of action for their state. I agree with you on this but they were duly elected regardless of how worthless they are.

Why do we keep doing this? What part of this is not clear?

The primary purpose of the mask is to catch meaningful amounts of the virus (actually the water vapor upon which the virus travels) you already have... so that it doesn't spread as much to others.... NOT to 'keep out' other people's viruses.

These studies are not news, people... Nor do they in any way address the current situation. You can't wear a cloth mask in an infected environment and be protected... no spit.

This is again looking at data on 'one' situation (keeping healthcare workers in infected areas from catching diseases from others) and applying it to 'another' (keeping potentially infected people in relatively clean areas from spreading it to others).

PLEASE stop putting up studies about protecting the wearer as if they mean anything for protecting others. Please stop putting up studies about people who generally wear them for 40 hours a week in infected environments as if that means anything to people who wear them for maybe 10 hours a week (and likely much less) in generally uninfected areas. I'm pretty regimented about it and I probably wear mine for less than an hour a day... and not every day.

(07-16-2020 09:32 AM)Redwingtom Wrote:  

(07-16-2020 08:22 AM)vandiver49 Wrote:  

(07-16-2020 07:17 AM)Redwingtom Wrote:  

(07-15-2020 10:34 PM)TripleA Wrote:  

(07-15-2020 02:14 PM)Redwingtom Wrote:  Well, they're not in charge, but nearly every country in the fricking world seemed to come up with a better plan.

You realize we have 50 states, right? All with governors, last I checked.

Yeah, Trump really screwed up NY and NJ, still the greatest number of our deaths, by far. Sending them a hospital ship and converting the Javits Center. Neither of which they barely used.

And it wasn't Trump who forced all the Covid patients into nursing homes. Do you actually think through things before you post?

You realize a virus does not observe state boundary lines, right?

What organization have you ever worked in where the leader lets 50 direct reports all come up with their own policy for a critical mission for the whole organization?

And cut the crap with the nursing homes. Especially since those governors IIRC have admitted the mistake and corrected course. But TBH, this could also be attributed to a failure of leadership from Washington, leaving them to find solutions on their own. The Maryland governor just addressed this today in a scathing op-ed.

There is no objective analysis anywhere that has concluded that this administration has done a good job, but that doesn't stop your unapologetic and unempathetic orange overlord from saying so...continually.

Yet you still cannot produce a cogent plan that should have been implemented or what executive powers would have enabled him to act with such authority. The fact that governors are blaming the president is indicative of their leadership deficiencies.

That's it? A anonymous internet message board poster can't put forth a national policy for a country to address a global pandemic of a novel virus, so clearly one doesn't exist? Do you even listen to yourself? I'm not an infectious disease expert, nor do I have billions of dollars and scores of experts at my disposal. But you're right...there clearly is no way forward for any country on the planet to address this as every other country is still breaking daily case records.

We're months in and this administration STILL has no plan. It's a failure. But keep deflecting this on to anyone but the cult leader. It's so on brand.

A rejoinder by another random internet poster complaining that people died of a virus is a failure of the POTUS is laughable. Point at a country that reacted better would at least be a starting point for dialogue. But instead you clearly hold a zero detect mentality on this situation, which undermines the validity of your complaint.

BTW, the military operates with multiple direct reports with the various Chief of Staffs providing only the commanders intent.

Everyone will believe whichever "study" reaffirms their desired stance. Anti-vaxxers are an example of that.

For now, I'll go with what every major science/public health organization in the world says to do, and wear a max when I'm in public.

(07-16-2020 09:59 AM)Hambone10 Wrote:  Why do we keep doing this? What part of this is not clear?

The primary purpose of the mask is to catch meaningful amounts of the virus (actually the water vapor upon which the virus travels) you already have... so that it doesn't spread as much to others.... NOT to 'keep out' other people's viruses.

These studies are not news, people... Nor do they in any way address the current situation. You can't wear a cloth mask in an infected environment and be protected... no spit.

This is again looking at data on 'one' situation (keeping healthcare workers in infected areas from catching diseases from others) and applying it to 'another' (keeping potentially infected people in relatively clean areas from spreading it to others).

PLEASE stop putting up studies about protecting the wearer as if they mean anything for protecting others. Please stop putting up studies about people who generally wear them for 40 hours a week in infected environments as if that means anything to people who wear them for maybe 10 hours a week (and likely much less) in generally uninfected areas. I'm pretty regimented about it and I probably wear mine for less than an hour a day... and not every day.

I keep one in the car to wear when I go to a store that requires it. I don't expect the mask to protect me...I expect it to restrict my breathing, cause inconvenience, reduce communication and generally be a nuisance. I quickly get what's on my list or what I came to the store for, and sometimes just say 'heck with it', and leave without purchasing everything or at all. These masks hurt businesses and employees as well, and that hurts American citizens pocketbooks, and especially poorer people. Few want to browse the aisles in a mask. The mentality of response with ineffective and backwards measures to "appear" to be doing something is a poster for Left-wing stupidity. In the end, the herd will survive. We're just prolonging it, which hurts citizens in far more ways than Covid ever has or will, which is what the Dem Party wants to try to regain power since their poor management and horrible ideology has been exposed. Covid is simply their last opportunity to deflect, and they';re willing to kill poor Americans to do it. Hateful Democratic Party of today is nothing in common with the Dems of yesteryear--they're basically Communist Chinese operatives at this point.. If you want to really fight Covid, remove all commerce and interaction with Communist China--that's the root cause, and most still continue to ignore it.

Medical situations: doctors offices and hospitals and surgeries, of source the inconvenience is warranted there. But in general public, masks are stupid. M If you're sneezing and coughing you should be staying home in first place- covid or no covid.

Wear your mask in the Hospitals and leave the rest of us alone to go about the business of America.

(07-16-2020 10:10 AM)JDTulane Wrote:  Everyone will believe whichever "study" reaffirms their desired stance. Anti-vaxxers are an example of that.

For now, I'll go with what every major science/public health organization in the world says to do, and wear a max when I'm in public.

I believe the reality in Miami. Masks don't stop anything. The virus doesn't care if you wear a mask. We are under a mandatory mask order since Monday in the two counties I live and work. I go in and get out of stores as fast as I can, because when I wear one I "overbreath". Before the mask order from the King of Mississippi I would breath normally through my nose. Not anymore. I look for a drastic increase in the number of sick people in the coming weeks due to people wearing dirty cloth masks, which are proven to not work and by touching the outside of their masks with dirty hands. Oh and for Hyperventilating in stores etc.

(07-16-2020 10:01 AM)vandiver49 Wrote:  

(07-16-2020 09:32 AM)Redwingtom Wrote:  

(07-16-2020 08:22 AM)vandiver49 Wrote:  

(07-16-2020 07:17 AM)Redwingtom Wrote:  

(07-15-2020 10:34 PM)TripleA Wrote:  You realize we have 50 states, right? All with governors, last I checked.

Yeah, Trump really screwed up NY and NJ, still the greatest number of our deaths, by far. Sending them a hospital ship and converting the Javits Center. Neither of which they barely used.

And it wasn't Trump who forced all the Covid patients into nursing homes. Do you actually think through things before you post?

You realize a virus does not observe state boundary lines, right?

What organization have you ever worked in where the leader lets 50 direct reports all come up with their own policy for a critical mission for the whole organization?

And cut the crap with the nursing homes. Especially since those governors IIRC have admitted the mistake and corrected course. But TBH, this could also be attributed to a failure of leadership from Washington, leaving them to find solutions on their own. The Maryland governor just addressed this today in a scathing op-ed.

There is no objective analysis anywhere that has concluded that this administration has done a good job, but that doesn't stop your unapologetic and unempathetic orange overlord from saying so...continually.

Yet you still cannot produce a cogent plan that should have been implemented or what executive powers would have enabled him to act with such authority. The fact that governors are blaming the president is indicative of their leadership deficiencies.

That's it? A anonymous internet message board poster can't put forth a national policy for a country to address a global pandemic of a novel virus, so clearly one doesn't exist? Do you even listen to yourself? I'm not an infectious disease expert, nor do I have billions of dollars and scores of experts at my disposal. But you're right...there clearly is no way forward for any country on the planet to address this as every other country is still breaking daily case records.

We're months in and this administration STILL has no plan. It's a failure. But keep deflecting this on to anyone but the cult leader. It's so on brand.

A rejoinder by another random internet poster complaining that people died of a virus is a failure of the POTUS is laughable. Point at a country that reacted better would at least be a starting point for dialogue. But instead you clearly hold a zero detect mentality on this situation, which undermines the validity of your complaint.

BTW, the military operates with multiple direct reports with the various Chief of Staffs providing only the commanders intent.

Point at a country, other than maybe Brazil, that's done it worse than us!

(07-16-2020 10:17 AM)Eagleaidaholic Wrote:  

(07-16-2020 10:10 AM)JDTulane Wrote:  Everyone will believe whichever "study" reaffirms their desired stance. Anti-vaxxers are an example of that.

For now, I'll go with what every major science/public health organization in the world says to do, and wear a max when I'm in public.

I believe the reality in Miami. Masks don't stop anything. The virus doesn't care if you wear a mask. We are under a mandatory mask order since Monday in the two counties I live and work. I go in and get out of stores as fast as I can, because when I wear one I "overbreath". Before the mask order from the King of Mississippi I would breath normally through my nose. Not anymore. I look for a drastic increase in the number of sick people in the coming weeks due to people wearing dirty cloth masks, which are proven to not work and by touching the outside of their masks with dirty hands. Oh and for Hyperventilating in stores etc.

I have yet to don one....they're gonna have to cuff my fk'n arse....

it's amazing how shopping on AMZN and Carol & Mike's farmers market can yield...

(07-16-2020 10:18 AM)Redwingtom Wrote:  Point at a country, other than maybe Brazil, that's done it worse than us!

At what? Flattening the curve? The only objective the U.S. ever had was ensuring the health care system wasn't overwhelmed. Did you want the U.S. to stay locked down until December? Or until there was a vaccine?

(07-16-2020 10:17 AM)Eagleaidaholic Wrote:  

(07-16-2020 10:10 AM)JDTulane Wrote:  Everyone will believe whichever "study" reaffirms their desired stance. Anti-vaxxers are an example of that.

For now, I'll go with what every major science/public health organization in the world says to do, and wear a max when I'm in public.

I believe the reality in Miami. Masks don't stop anything. The virus doesn't care if you wear a mask. We are under a mandatory mask order since Monday in the two counties I live and work. I go in and get out of stores as fast as I can, because when I wear one I "overbreath". Before the mask order from the King of Mississippi I would breath normally through my nose. Not anymore. I look for a drastic increase in the number of sick people in the coming weeks due to people wearing dirty cloth masks, which are proven to not work and by touching the outside of their masks with dirty hands. Oh and for Hyperventilating in stores etc.

If you're hyperventilating wearing a cloth mask you either need a stairmaster, some yoga, or a xanax. I bike outside in the Texas heat and yesterday forgot to take it off for the first half of a ride and other than some extra sweat, hardly noticed.

(07-16-2020 09:59 AM)Hambone10 Wrote:  Why do we keep doing this? What part of this is not clear?

I asked you this once already.

In 2009 the H1N1 killed 284,000 Americans. Where were the masks and lock downs then?

(07-16-2020 10:19 AM)stinkfist Wrote:  

(07-16-2020 10:17 AM)Eagleaidaholic Wrote:  I believe the reality in Miami. Masks don't stop anything. The virus doesn't care if you wear a mask. We are under a mandatory mask order since Monday in the two counties I live and work. I go in and get out of stores as fast as I can, because when I wear one I "overbreath". Before the mask order from the King of Mississippi I would breath normally through my nose. Not anymore. I look for a drastic increase in the number of sick people in the coming weeks due to people wearing dirty cloth masks, which are proven to not work and by touching the outside of their masks with dirty hands. Oh and for Hyperventilating in stores etc.

I have yet to don one....they're gonna have to cuff my fk'n arse....

it's amazing how shopping on AMZN and Carol & Mike's farmers market can yield...

I respect the sovereignty of private businesses to decide how they want to do business. If I want something from a store/business and they require a mask, I'll wear one while there or decide not to go at all...but they generally lose more from me and others than if they decided to be more reasonable. here again, it's their fear of lawsuits and lawyers (Surprise!) rather than any scientific understanding. Lawyers screw up more of our country than any other single group. But that's another thread of its own. Trump pisses off lawyers mostly, and that's one more reason to like trump and vote for Trump despite his personality quirks.

(07-16-2020 10:23 AM)vandiver49 Wrote:  

(07-16-2020 10:18 AM)Redwingtom Wrote:  Point at a country, other than maybe Brazil, that's done it worse than us!

At what? Flattening the curve? The only objective the U.S. ever had was ensuring the health care system wasn't overwhelmed. Did you want the U.S. to stay locked down until December? Or until there was a vaccine?

Whichever hurts Trump the most.

(07-16-2020 10:29 AM)ECUGrad07 Wrote:  

(07-16-2020 10:23 AM)vandiver49 Wrote:  

(07-16-2020 10:18 AM)Redwingtom Wrote:  Point at a country, other than maybe Brazil, that's done it worse than us!

At what? Flattening the curve? The only objective the U.S. ever had was ensuring the health care system wasn't overwhelmed. Did you want the U.S. to stay locked down until December? Or until there was a vaccine?

Whichever hurts Trump the most.

Either way, methinks like "magic" this will all be over on November 4th.

(07-16-2020 10:28 AM)JDTulane Wrote:  

(07-16-2020 10:17 AM)Eagleaidaholic Wrote:  

(07-16-2020 10:10 AM)JDTulane Wrote:  Everyone will believe whichever "study" reaffirms their desired stance. Anti-vaxxers are an example of that.

For now, I'll go with what every major science/public health organization in the world says to do, and wear a max when I'm in public.

I believe the reality in Miami. Masks don't stop anything. The virus doesn't care if you wear a mask. We are under a mandatory mask order since Monday in the two counties I live and work. I go in and get out of stores as fast as I can, because when I wear one I "overbreath". Before the mask order from the King of Mississippi I would breath normally through my nose. Not anymore. I look for a drastic increase in the number of sick people in the coming weeks due to people wearing dirty cloth masks, which are proven to not work and by touching the outside of their masks with dirty hands. Oh and for Hyperventilating in stores etc.

If you're hyperventilating wearing a cloth mask you either need a stairmaster, some yoga, or a xanax. I bike outside in the Texas heat and yesterday forgot to take it off for the first half of a ride and other than some extra sweat, hardly noticed.

You obviously aren't wearing a mask that is worth a pshit. I can run circles around you. A mask that works will inhibit your normal breathing or it isn't working. I don't wear a cloth mask. I wear a medical mask.

(07-16-2020 09:32 AM)Redwingtom Wrote:  We're months in and this administration STILL has no plan. It's a failure. But keep deflecting this on to anyone but the cult leader. It's so on brand.

Tom... This line of thought may sell well to Democrats, but that doesn't make it correct.

In times of national emergency... the federal government has two jurisdictions...
1) external. The president CAN halt goods or people coming in from overseas or our people leaving
2) inter-state commerce... The president CAN halt goods or people from traveling between states.

The president has absolutely ZERO authority to enact legislation within a state.... so let's just dispense with the idea that the buck stops with him. States are responsible for what happens within their borders... which is why Cali can have one set of rules for guns and the like, while Texas can have another. If the president had that sort of power, surely Obama would have used it to address gun control and police brutality, right? Let's also dispense with the whole... 'the states need guidance'... Half the states are run by Democrats, who wouldn't listen to Trump if he were handing out gold bars... Even in times of agreement, different states have different laws... because most things that might make perfect sense in highly urban populations like NY would be stupid in Montana. The fact that not all of NY is urban or not all of MT is rural makes no difference to the concept of 'most'.

I realize that Democrats want to elect a king and have one-size-fits-all rules.... concentrating power in DC.... SOME Republicans agree at least somewhat... but MOST of the party does not support this... and that is why/how Trump was elected... so even those that do support more power in DC must at least APPEAR not to.

You support electing a king, unless that king is a Republican.

(07-16-2020 10:18 AM)Redwingtom Wrote:  

(07-16-2020 10:01 AM)vandiver49 Wrote:  

(07-16-2020 09:32 AM)Redwingtom Wrote:  

(07-16-2020 08:22 AM)vandiver49 Wrote:  

(07-16-2020 07:17 AM)Redwingtom Wrote:  You realize a virus does not observe state boundary lines, right?

What organization have you ever worked in where the leader lets 50 direct reports all come up with their own policy for a critical mission for the whole organization?

And cut the crap with the nursing homes. Especially since those governors IIRC have admitted the mistake and corrected course. But TBH, this could also be attributed to a failure of leadership from Washington, leaving them to find solutions on their own. The Maryland governor just addressed this today in a scathing op-ed.

There is no objective analysis anywhere that has concluded that this administration has done a good job, but that doesn't stop your unapologetic and unempathetic orange overlord from saying so...continually.

Yet you still cannot produce a cogent plan that should have been implemented or what executive powers would have enabled him to act with such authority. The fact that governors are blaming the president is indicative of their leadership deficiencies.

That's it? A anonymous internet message board poster can't put forth a national policy for a country to address a global pandemic of a novel virus, so clearly one doesn't exist? Do you even listen to yourself? I'm not an infectious disease expert, nor do I have billions of dollars and scores of experts at my disposal. But you're right...there clearly is no way forward for any country on the planet to address this as every other country is still breaking daily case records.

We're months in and this administration STILL has no plan. It's a failure. But keep deflecting this on to anyone but the cult leader. It's so on brand.

A rejoinder by another random internet poster complaining that people died of a virus is a failure of the POTUS is laughable. Point at a country that reacted better would at least be a starting point for dialogue. But instead you clearly hold a zero detect mentality on this situation, which undermines the validity of your complaint.

BTW, the military operates with multiple direct reports with the various Chief of Staffs providing only the commanders intent.

Point at a country, other than maybe Brazil, that's done it worse than us!

Just about every country in Europe has a higher deaths per million population than the US and I'm sure they didn't pass a law to incentivize the number of deaths from Covid. Just heard from a guy who's dad went into the hospital a couple of weeks ago with heart problems and died. Got the death cert a week or so later and stated his cause of death was Covid. The son went to the hospital administrator and told him his dad didn't die from Covid. The administrator told him the hospital would get an extra $10,000. The son said he was going to sue the hospital. They got the doctor to write a new DC. No lie. This is happening all over, especially for patients with no family. Which is most LTC residents.

(07-16-2020 10:28 AM)BartlettTigerFan Wrote:  

(07-16-2020 09:59 AM)Hambone10 Wrote:  Why do we keep doing this? What part of this is not clear?

I asked you this once already.

In 2009 the H1N1 killed 284,000 Americans. Where were the masks and lock downs then?

I never saw this ask, but I'd wonder where you're getting your information. The CDC estimates that it killed about 12,500 Americans... which is the point.

60mm Americans were infected... about 275,000 hospitalized... maybe that's the number you've seen? Only about 12,000 died.

Swine was highly virulent, but we'd also seen it numerous times before so it wasn't very deadly at all.

60mm infections would be a pretty heavy flu season, but 12,500 deaths would be a very light one.... so the reactions make some sense...

We did less for a highly virulent but not deadly disease like H1N1, we do a little more (masks suggested and flu shots HIGHLY suggested) for annual flu that infects around 50mm and kills around 50,000... and 'more' for something that even with a lot of intervention, infects only say 3mm, but kills 100,000.