(07-05-2020 11:04 AM)tanqtonic Wrote:  

(07-05-2020 10:35 AM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(07-05-2020 10:04 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(07-05-2020 09:27 AM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(07-05-2020 08:06 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/baltim...li=BBorjTa
It is beginning to appear that no statue of a white man is safe. Nothing racist about that.

Honestly, if people had come together in agreement that public monuments celebrating the Confederacy should come down then this current situation (which in many instances is an overcorrection IMO) would likely not be taking place. I don't understand why doing away with public Confederate statues was such an issue.

Or if people had come together in agreement that they shouldn't come down, same result.

My own opinion (bet you thought I'd never share that) is that they should be moved to museums, battlefield sites where they fought, or cemeteries where they are buried.

A lot of these were nonspecific monuments to the Confederacy that were mass-produced. Not sure where you would put those.

How many? Given the certitude above this should be easy
If simply parroting a talking point expect 93 to run the fk away from the preceding question.

There are something like 1,500 to 1,700 memorials around.

This article talks about the mass production of some: https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.atlasob...tatues.amp

(07-05-2020 11:05 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(07-05-2020 10:44 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(07-05-2020 10:30 AM)Rice93 Wrote:  Let's start with those monuments to the Confederacy that were placed in black neighborhoods during the Jim Crow era as a "message" to black people. What do you propose is the trade value on those?

I already said--several times--move them to museums, battlefield sites, or military cemeteries where they are buried.

What do you agree to give up in return?

Why do conservatives feel that memorials to confederate war heroes are a conservative issue to fight for? What about the honoring people who fought to secede from the United States makes conservatives want to support that? If you view moving these statues to a museum as something you’re giving up, you must logically find that this is something conservatives don’t want to do.

This is about statues honoring Confederates, not historical markers/buildings which rig
htfully should stand as a way to teach (similar to how moving these statues to museums is a very appropriate action).

Perhaps because each and every decision should be made by that community. If Leesburg Va decides to change their name, that is inherently their decision.

As opposed to removal by national consensus.

Turning your comment around, why in the fk should the removal of a statue be anything but a local opinion?

(07-05-2020 11:04 AM)tanqtonic Wrote:  

(07-05-2020 10:35 AM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(07-05-2020 10:04 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(07-05-2020 09:27 AM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(07-05-2020 08:06 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/baltim...li=BBorjTa
It is beginning to appear that no statue of a white man is safe. Nothing racist about that.

Honestly, if people had come together in agreement that public monuments celebrating the Confederacy should come down then this current situation (which in many instances is an overcorrection IMO) would likely not be taking place. I don't understand why doing away with public Confederate statues was such an issue.

Or if people had come together in agreement that they shouldn't come down, same result.

My own opinion (bet you thought I'd never share that) is that they should be moved to museums, battlefield sites where they fought, or cemeteries where they are buried.

A lot of these were nonspecific monuments to the Confederacy that were mass-produced. Not sure where you would put those.

How many? Given the certitude above this should be easy
If simply parroting a talking point expect 93 to run the fk away from the preceding question.

Start with the dozens of Frank Teich mass-produced statues of the generic Confederate soldier. There were dozens of them.

Reminder... I often quit responding to you when you get insulting and histrionic. It's crazy how crummy you get immediately.

(07-05-2020 11:11 AM)tanqtonic Wrote:  

(07-05-2020 11:05 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(07-05-2020 10:44 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(07-05-2020 10:30 AM)Rice93 Wrote:  Let's start with those monuments to the Confederacy that were placed in black neighborhoods during the Jim Crow era as a "message" to black people. What do you propose is the trade value on those?

I already said--several times--move them to museums, battlefield sites, or military cemeteries where they are buried.

What do you agree to give up in return?

Why do conservatives feel that memorials to confederate war heroes are a conservative issue to fight for? What about the honoring people who fought to secede from the United States makes conservatives want to support that? If you view moving these statues to a museum as something you’re giving up, you must logically find that this is something conservatives don’t want to do.

This is about statues honoring Confederates, not historical markers/buildings which rig
htfully should stand as a way to teach (similar to how moving these statues to museums is a very appropriate action).

Perhaps because each and every decision should be made by that community. If Leesburg Va decides to change their name, that is inherently their decision.

As opposed to removal by national consensus.

Turning your comment around, why in the fk should the removal of a statue be anything but a local opinion?

That didn’t seem to be Owl#s take - he didn’t mention a single thing about the decision being local, but rather it being a partisan give and take.

So are you saying that conservatives are OK with these statues being removed, so long as the majority of the local population agrees to it?

(07-05-2020 11:12 AM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(07-05-2020 11:04 AM)tanqtonic Wrote:  

(07-05-2020 10:35 AM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(07-05-2020 10:04 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(07-05-2020 09:27 AM)Rice93 Wrote:  Honestly, if people had come together in agreement that public monuments celebrating the Confederacy should come down then this current situation (which in many instances is an overcorrection IMO) would likely not be taking place. I don't understand why doing away with public Confederate statues was such an issue.

Or if people had come together in agreement that they shouldn't come down, same result.

My own opinion (bet you thought I'd never share that) is that they should be moved to museums, battlefield sites where they fought, or cemeteries where they are buried.

A lot of these were nonspecific monuments to the Confederacy that were mass-produced. Not sure where you would put those.

How many? Given the certitude above this should be easy
If simply parroting a talking point expect 93 to run the fk away from the preceding question.

Start with the dozens of Frank Teich mass-produced statues of the generic Confederate soldier. There were dozens of them.

Reminder... I often quit responding to you when you get insulting and histrionic. It's crazy how crummy you get immediately.

Amazing number there. 'Dozens'. Both in scope and in certainty, mind you.

(07-05-2020 11:13 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(07-05-2020 11:11 AM)tanqtonic Wrote:  

(07-05-2020 11:05 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(07-05-2020 10:44 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(07-05-2020 10:30 AM)Rice93 Wrote:  Let's start with those monuments to the Confederacy that were placed in black neighborhoods during the Jim Crow era as a "message" to black people. What do you propose is the trade value on those?

I already said--several times--move them to museums, battlefield sites, or military cemeteries where they are buried.

What do you agree to give up in return?

Why do conservatives feel that memorials to confederate war heroes are a conservative issue to fight for? What about the honoring people who fought to secede from the United States makes conservatives want to support that? If you view moving these statues to a museum as something you’re giving up, you must logically find that this is something conservatives don’t want to do.

This is about statues honoring Confederates, not historical markers/buildings which rig
htfully should stand as a way to teach (similar to how moving these statues to museums is a very appropriate action).

Perhaps because each and every decision should be made by that community. If Leesburg Va decides to change their name, that is inherently their decision.

As opposed to removal by national consensus.

Turning your comment around, why in the fk should the removal of a statue be anything but a local opinion?

That didn’t seem to be Owl#s take - he didn’t mention a single thing about the decision being local, but rather it being a partisan give and take.

So are you saying that conservatives are OK with these statues being removed, so long as the majority of the local population agrees to it?

It is certainly better than the decision by shitbird progressuves at both a national scope, and in specific instances, sua sponte.

If a town decided to remove a statue of an ancestor (which exists) then that is that decision. Funny that.

The sua sponte removal by consensus and mob action doesnt cut it for me. Nor should it for anyone. Just saying.

As for the 'traitor' thing that you pipe up so very often, my response now, as it has been before, name any single act, law, or section of the Constitution as they existed in 1861 that deemed it illegal for a state to secede. Just one.

This I know is a repeat question to you, but it remains unanswered from your quarter. Again, funny that.

(07-05-2020 11:15 AM)tanqtonic Wrote:  

(07-05-2020 11:12 AM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(07-05-2020 11:04 AM)tanqtonic Wrote:  

(07-05-2020 10:35 AM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(07-05-2020 10:04 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  Or if people had come together in agreement that they shouldn't come down, same result.

My own opinion (bet you thought I'd never share that) is that they should be moved to museums, battlefield sites where they fought, or cemeteries where they are buried.

A lot of these were nonspecific monuments to the Confederacy that were mass-produced. Not sure where you would put those.

How many? Given the certitude above this should be easy
If simply parroting a talking point expect 93 to run the fk away from the preceding question.

Start with the dozens of Frank Teich mass-produced statues of the generic Confederate soldier. There were dozens of them.

Reminder... I often quit responding to you when you get insulting and histrionic. It's crazy how crummy you get immediately.

Amazing number there. 'Dozens'. Both in scope and in certainty, mind you.

Does your approach to the issue change if it is 37 Teich statues versus 220 statues?

(07-05-2020 11:12 AM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(07-05-2020 11:04 AM)tanqtonic Wrote:  

(07-05-2020 10:35 AM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(07-05-2020 10:04 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(07-05-2020 09:27 AM)Rice93 Wrote:  Honestly, if people had come together in agreement that public monuments celebrating the Confederacy should come down then this current situation (which in many instances is an overcorrection IMO) would likely not be taking place. I don't understand why doing away with public Confederate statues was such an issue.

Or if people had come together in agreement that they shouldn't come down, same result.

My own opinion (bet you thought I'd never share that) is that they should be moved to museums, battlefield sites where they fought, or cemeteries where they are buried.

A lot of these were nonspecific monuments to the Confederacy that were mass-produced. Not sure where you would put those.

How many? Given the certitude above this should be easy
If simply parroting a talking point expect 93 to run the fk away from the preceding question.

Start with the dozens of Frank Teich mass-produced statues of the generic Confederate soldier. There were dozens of them.

Reminder... I often quit responding to you when you get insulting and histrionic. It's crazy how crummy you get immediately.

Remindrr -- that isnt ostensibly the only instance that you run from issues. Thank you for the answer. Not terribly illuminating, nor does it reach nearly the scope of 'Confederate statues and monuments in existence'. Nor any goodly proportion in my estimation.

Apparently enough for you yo grab a vague justification though.

(07-05-2020 11:24 AM)tanqtonic Wrote:  

(07-05-2020 11:13 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(07-05-2020 11:11 AM)tanqtonic Wrote:  

(07-05-2020 11:05 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(07-05-2020 10:44 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  I already said--several times--move them to museums, battlefield sites, or military cemeteries where they are buried.

What do you agree to give up in return?

Why do conservatives feel that memorials to confederate war heroes are a conservative issue to fight for? What about the honoring people who fought to secede from the United States makes conservatives want to support that? If you view moving these statues to a museum as something you’re giving up, you must logically find that this is something conservatives don’t want to do.

This is about statues honoring Confederates, not historical markers/buildings which rig
htfully should stand as a way to teach (similar to how moving these statues to museums is a very appropriate action).

Perhaps because each and every decision should be made by that community. If Leesburg Va decides to change their name, that is inherently their decision.

As opposed to removal by national consensus.

Turning your comment around, why in the fk should the removal of a statue be anything but a local opinion?

That didn’t seem to be Owl#s take - he didn’t mention a single thing about the decision being local, but rather it being a partisan give and take.

So are you saying that conservatives are OK with these statues being removed, so long as the majority of the local population agrees to it?

It is certainly better than the decision by shitbird progressuves at both a national scope, and in specific instances, sua sponte.

If a town decided to remove a statue of an ancestor (which exists) then that is that decision. Funny that.

The sua sponte removal by consensus and mob action doesnt cut it for me. Nor should it for anyone. Just saying.

As for the 'traitor' thing that you pipe up so very often, my response now, as it has been before, name any single act, law, or section of the Constitution as they existed in 1861 that deemed it illegal for a state to secede. Just one.

This I know is a repeat question to you, but it remains unanswered from your quarter. Again, funny that.

Tanq, do you disagree with the idea that many of these statues were placed well after the Civil War simply to serve as a message to black people who were fighting for civil rights during the Jim Crow era?

(07-05-2020 11:26 AM)tanqtonic Wrote:  

(07-05-2020 11:12 AM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(07-05-2020 11:04 AM)tanqtonic Wrote:  

(07-05-2020 10:35 AM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(07-05-2020 10:04 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  Or if people had come together in agreement that they shouldn't come down, same result.

My own opinion (bet you thought I'd never share that) is that they should be moved to museums, battlefield sites where they fought, or cemeteries where they are buried.

A lot of these were nonspecific monuments to the Confederacy that were mass-produced. Not sure where you would put those.

How many? Given the certitude above this should be easy
If simply parroting a talking point expect 93 to run the fk away from the preceding question.

Start with the dozens of Frank Teich mass-produced statues of the generic Confederate soldier. There were dozens of them.

Reminder... I often quit responding to you when you get insulting and histrionic. It's crazy how crummy you get immediately.

Remindrr -- that isnt ostensibly the only instance that you run from issues. Thank you for the answer. Not terribly illuminating, nor does it reach nearly the scope of 'Confederate statues and monuments in existence'. Nor any goodly proportion in my estimation.

Apparently enough for you yo grab a vague justification though.

I said to start with those statues (low-hanging fruit, IMO).

(07-05-2020 11:13 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  That didn’t seem to be Owl#s take - he didn’t mention a single thing about the decision being local, but rather it being a partisan give and take.

I thought my "take" was pretty clearly expressed. But I'll have another go at it in the hopes of clarifying.

I frankly don't care a whole lot about statues. Bottom line, I think that more appropriate places for them would be museums, battlefield parks, and military cemeteries where they are buried. That treatment preserves the memory for those who enjoy history, without being in people's faces who don't want to see them.

What I think are more significant issues would be doing things that actually made the livest of blacks, browns, and other poor people better, today and in the future, instead of worrying so much about the fast. Things that I'd like to see addressed include:
1) 77% of black children grow up in single-parent households, generally with no father - reform the welfare system to reduce or eliminate the considerable financial incentives for daddy to run away; when I was a child, I was always impressed by the strong family ties that my black friends' families had; that's gone now, thanks to the Great Society
2) Inner-city (primarily black) schools do a terrible job of educating students, despite more and more money being thrown at them - give parents an option to send their children to school elsewhere (this probably means vouchers) which will have the additional effect of forcing those inner-city schools to get better or go away; restructure the education system to place students on different tracks that more nearly conform to their interests and abilities, including a work-study apprenticeship system for vocational education
3) The welfare plantation doesn't want escapees, so the system is set up with "poverty trap" that mean, for a family of 3 or 4, from about $15,000 earned income (poverty) to $55,000 (middle class), for every dollar of additional earned income, you lose a dollar to taxes and lost benefits - restructure the welfare system to eliminate this; the only way I see to do it is a subsistence level universal basic income that does not go away as you income increases
4) Black crime is much higher on a per capita basis than white crime - legalize marijuana and decriminalize other drugs, which eliminates a huge racial disparity in arrests and convictions; get rid of a bunch of the kumbaya stuff in our schools and replace it with practical, common sense training in how to live life - money management, how to react when dealing with police, how to change a tire, cook, other basic life skills; have police do lots of interaction activities with schools and community organizations

Quote:So are you saying that conservatives are OK with these statues being removed, so long as the majority of the local population agrees to it?

I think we need to get back to cooperation and compromise on a lot of issues, rather than everything being mano a mano duel to the death partisanship. I think my idea of museums, battleground sites, and military cemeteries is a reasonable compromise. But I'd also like to see some offers in compromise from the other side.

(07-05-2020 11:25 AM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(07-05-2020 11:15 AM)tanqtonic Wrote:  

(07-05-2020 11:12 AM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(07-05-2020 11:04 AM)tanqtonic Wrote:  

(07-05-2020 10:35 AM)Rice93 Wrote:  A lot of these were nonspecific monuments to the Confederacy that were mass-produced. Not sure where you would put those.

How many? Given the certitude above this should be easy
If simply parroting a talking point expect 93 to run the fk away from the preceding question.

Start with the dozens of Frank Teich mass-produced statues of the generic Confederate soldier. There were dozens of them.

Reminder... I often quit responding to you when you get insulting and histrionic. It's crazy how crummy you get immediately.

Amazing number there. 'Dozens'. Both in scope and in certainty, mind you.

Does your approach to the issue change if it is 37 Teich statues versus 220 statues?

I would say even your now top attempt of 220 is a stupily small number to grab for as a justification given what I suspect is the total number of monuments and statues.

Starting yo sound like a factoid on a sliver that is being used as a talking point. And starting to sound like some resistance to that characterization of that as such a talking point.

(07-05-2020 11:31 AM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(07-05-2020 11:26 AM)tanqtonic Wrote:  

(07-05-2020 11:12 AM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(07-05-2020 11:04 AM)tanqtonic Wrote:  

(07-05-2020 10:35 AM)Rice93 Wrote:  A lot of these were nonspecific monuments to the Confederacy that were mass-produced. Not sure where you would put those.

How many? Given the certitude above this should be easy
If simply parroting a talking point expect 93 to run the fk away from the preceding question.

Start with the dozens of Frank Teich mass-produced statues of the generic Confederate soldier. There were dozens of them.

Reminder... I often quit responding to you when you get insulting and histrionic. It's crazy how crummy you get immediately.

Remindrr -- that isnt ostensibly the only instance that you run from issues. Thank you for the answer. Not terribly illuminating, nor does it reach nearly the scope of 'Confederate statues and monuments in existence'. Nor any goodly proportion in my estimation.

Apparently enough for you yo grab a vague justification though.

I said to start with those statues (low-hanging fruit, IMO).

With zero notion of any end point. Just like the rationale for ghe welfare state and affirmative action. Funny that.

(07-05-2020 11:37 AM)tanqtonic Wrote:  

(07-05-2020 11:31 AM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(07-05-2020 11:26 AM)tanqtonic Wrote:  

(07-05-2020 11:12 AM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(07-05-2020 11:04 AM)tanqtonic Wrote:  How many? Given the certitude above this should be easy
If simply parroting a talking point expect 93 to run the fk away from the preceding question.

Start with the dozens of Frank Teich mass-produced statues of the generic Confederate soldier. There were dozens of them.

Reminder... I often quit responding to you when you get insulting and histrionic. It's crazy how crummy you get immediately.

Remindrr -- that isnt ostensibly the only instance that you run from issues. Thank you for the answer. Not terribly illuminating, nor does it reach nearly the scope of 'Confederate statues and monuments in existence'. Nor any goodly proportion in my estimation.

Apparently enough for you yo grab a vague justification though.

I said to start with those statues (low-hanging fruit, IMO).

With zero notion of any end point. Just like the rationale for ghe welfare state and affirmative action. Funny that.

Tanq, do you disagree with the idea that many of these statues were placed well after the Civil War simply to serve as a message to black people who were fighting for civil rights during the Jim Crow era?

(07-05-2020 11:05 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(07-05-2020 10:44 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(07-05-2020 10:30 AM)Rice93 Wrote:  Let's start with those monuments to the Confederacy that were placed in black neighborhoods during the Jim Crow era as a "message" to black people. What do you propose is the trade value on those?

I already said--several times--move them to museums, battlefield sites, or military cemeteries where they are buried.

What do you agree to give up in return?

Why do conservatives feel that memorials to confederate war heroes are a conservative issue to fight for? What about the honoring people who fought to secede from the United States makes conservatives want to support that? If you view moving these statues to a museum as something you’re giving up, you must logically find that this is something conservatives don’t want to do.

This is about statues honoring Confederates, not historical markers/buildings which rightfully should stand as a way to teach (similar to how moving these statues to museums is a very appropriate action).

Lad, I'm the most anti-Confederate person you'll ever meet. I was anti-Confederate in third grade, at an age when most of you probably weren't even sure how many stars are in the flag. I don't think the United States should celebrate any American who took up arms against the United States -- not in a statue, a public building, a street, or anywhere. I have not said a single thing defending the existence or placement of such statues, much less have I "fought for" them. So please don't tar me with that brush.

What I did was gently chide Rice93 that his attitude of "if people would just do it my way, then violence wouldn't be needed" is not much different from the defenses offered by murderous cops, wife beaters (as Tanq noted), terrorists, and other practicers of lawlessness. It is a smug, self-centered, self-righteous, immature, anti-democratic, and ultimately lazy attitude, and he should be chided for it. Even if he himself is too dense to recognize it, I'm sure that you're not.

(07-05-2020 01:04 PM)georgewebb Wrote:  

(07-05-2020 11:05 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(07-05-2020 10:44 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(07-05-2020 10:30 AM)Rice93 Wrote:  Let's start with those monuments to the Confederacy that were placed in black neighborhoods during the Jim Crow era as a "message" to black people. What do you propose is the trade value on those?

I already said--several times--move them to museums, battlefield sites, or military cemeteries where they are buried.

What do you agree to give up in return?

Why do conservatives feel that memorials to confederate war heroes are a conservative issue to fight for? What about the honoring people who fought to secede from the United States makes conservatives want to support that? If you view moving these statues to a museum as something you’re giving up, you must logically find that this is something conservatives don’t want to do.

This is about statues honoring Confederates, not historical markers/buildings which rightfully should stand as a way to teach (similar to how moving these statues to museums is a very appropriate action).

Lad, I'm the most anti-Confederate person you'll ever meet. I was anti-Confederate in third grade, at an age when most of you probably weren't even sure how many stars are in the flag. I don't think the United States should celebrate any American who took up arms against the United States -- not in a statue, a public building, a street, or anywhere. I have not said a single thing defending the existence or placement of such statues, much less have I "fought for" them. So please don't tar me with that brush.

What I did was gently chide Rice93 that his attitude of "if people would just do it my way, then violence wouldn't be needed" is not much different from the defenses offered by murderous cops, wife beaters (as Tanq noted), terrorists, and other practicers of lawlessness. It is a smug, self-centered, self-righteous, immature, anti-democratic attitude, and he should be chided for it. Even if he himself is too dense to recognize it, I'm sure that you're not.

Oh jeez... bad George is back. We had good George for a bit.

(07-05-2020 01:07 PM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(07-05-2020 01:04 PM)georgewebb Wrote:  

(07-05-2020 11:05 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(07-05-2020 10:44 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(07-05-2020 10:30 AM)Rice93 Wrote:  Let's start with those monuments to the Confederacy that were placed in black neighborhoods during the Jim Crow era as a "message" to black people. What do you propose is the trade value on those?

I already said--several times--move them to museums, battlefield sites, or military cemeteries where they are buried.

What do you agree to give up in return?

Why do conservatives feel that memorials to confederate war heroes are a conservative issue to fight for? What about the honoring people who fought to secede from the United States makes conservatives want to support that? If you view moving these statues to a museum as something you’re giving up, you must logically find that this is something conservatives don’t want to do.

This is about statues honoring Confederates, not historical markers/buildings which rightfully should stand as a way to teach (similar to how moving these statues to museums is a very appropriate action).

Lad, I'm the most anti-Confederate person you'll ever meet. I was anti-Confederate in third grade, at an age when most of you probably weren't even sure how many stars are in the flag. I don't think the United States should celebrate any American who took up arms against the United States -- not in a statue, a public building, a street, or anywhere. I have not said a single thing defending the existence or placement of such statues, much less have I "fought for" them. So please don't tar me with that brush.

What I did was gently chide Rice93 that his attitude of "if people would just do it my way, then violence wouldn't be needed" is not much different from the defenses offered by murderous cops, wife beaters (as Tanq noted), terrorists, and other practicers of lawlessness. It is a smug, self-centered, self-righteous, immature, anti-democratic attitude, and he should be chided for it. Even if he himself is too dense to recognize it, I'm sure that you're not.

Oh jeez... bad George is back. We had good George for a bit.

Oh jeez... as long as we are stuck with stupid Rice93, don't expect a free pass. Or in your theory "If we could just come to agreement that you're wrong, you wouldn't get criticized."

(07-05-2020 01:11 PM)georgewebb Wrote:  

(07-05-2020 01:07 PM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(07-05-2020 01:04 PM)georgewebb Wrote:  

(07-05-2020 11:05 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(07-05-2020 10:44 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  I already said--several times--move them to museums, battlefield sites, or military cemeteries where they are buried.

What do you agree to give up in return?

Why do conservatives feel that memorials to confederate war heroes are a conservative issue to fight for? What about the honoring people who fought to secede from the United States makes conservatives want to support that? If you view moving these statues to a museum as something you’re giving up, you must logically find that this is something conservatives don’t want to do.

This is about statues honoring Confederates, not historical markers/buildings which rightfully should stand as a way to teach (similar to how moving these statues to museums is a very appropriate action).

Lad, I'm the most anti-Confederate person you'll ever meet. I was anti-Confederate in third grade, at an age when most of you probably weren't even sure how many stars are in the flag. I don't think the United States should celebrate any American who took up arms against the United States -- not in a statue, a public building, a street, or anywhere. I have not said a single thing defending the existence or placement of such statues, much less have I "fought for" them. So please don't tar me with that brush.

What I did was gently chide Rice93 that his attitude of "if people would just do it my way, then violence wouldn't be needed" is not much different from the defenses offered by murderous cops, wife beaters (as Tanq noted), terrorists, and other practicers of lawlessness. It is a smug, self-centered, self-righteous, immature, anti-democratic attitude, and he should be chided for it. Even if he himself is too dense to recognize it, I'm sure that you're not.

Oh jeez... bad George is back. We had good George for a bit.

Oh jeez... as long as we are stuck with stupid Rice93, don't expect a free pass. Or in your theory "If we could just come to agreement that you're wrong, you wouldn't get criticized."

It's fine to disagree with me. I have definitely been wrong before (both on this forum and IRL). Being wrong doesn't bother me. I honestly don't understand why you guys are so quick to resort to this type of behavior, though. I am happy to be educated (I keep coming back to this forum because I feel like I learn things here) but being pompous and insulting doesn't really lead to a productive discussion.

(07-05-2020 01:16 PM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(07-05-2020 01:11 PM)georgewebb Wrote:  

(07-05-2020 01:07 PM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(07-05-2020 01:04 PM)georgewebb Wrote:  

(07-05-2020 11:05 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  Why do conservatives feel that memorials to confederate war heroes are a conservative issue to fight for? What about the honoring people who fought to secede from the United States makes conservatives want to support that? If you view moving these statues to a museum as something you’re giving up, you must logically find that this is something conservatives don’t want to do.

This is about statues honoring Confederates, not historical markers/buildings which rightfully should stand as a way to teach (similar to how moving these statues to museums is a very appropriate action).

Lad, I'm the most anti-Confederate person you'll ever meet. I was anti-Confederate in third grade, at an age when most of you probably weren't even sure how many stars are in the flag. I don't think the United States should celebrate any American who took up arms against the United States -- not in a statue, a public building, a street, or anywhere. I have not said a single thing defending the existence or placement of such statues, much less have I "fought for" them. So please don't tar me with that brush.

What I did was gently chide Rice93 that his attitude of "if people would just do it my way, then violence wouldn't be needed" is not much different from the defenses offered by murderous cops, wife beaters (as Tanq noted), terrorists, and other practicers of lawlessness. It is a smug, self-centered, self-righteous, immature, anti-democratic attitude, and he should be chided for it. Even if he himself is too dense to recognize it, I'm sure that you're not.

Oh jeez... bad George is back. We had good George for a bit.

Oh jeez... as long as we are stuck with stupid Rice93, don't expect a free pass. Or in your theory "If we could just come to agreement that you're wrong, you wouldn't get criticized."

It's fine to disagree with me. I have definitely been wrong before (both on this forum and IRL). Being wrong doesn't bother me. I honestly don't understand why you guys are so quick to resort to this type of behavior, though. I am happy to be educated (I keep coming back to this forum because I feel like I learn things here) but being pompous and insulting doesn't really lead to a productive discussion.

For Pete's sake, your prior proclamation that people should do it your way or get what's coming to them belies your claim that you really value "productive discussion", and is exactly a behavior that warrants criticism. On this topic you ARE being dense, and deserve the label.

Compromise is I give up something to you and in return you give up something to me. Good compromise occurs when I give up something that matters little to me but much to you, and in return you give up something that matters little to you but much for me.

I've already said to move the statues to museums, or battlefield sites, or military cemeteries. That way, they are available for viewing by those who want to see them, or to preserve history, but are not in the face of those who don't want to see them.

In return, what do you propose as a compromise to resolve some other issue?