(07-02-2020 03:19 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  As I said, I can admit that my likely vote for Biden inherently means I endorse his baggage.

If I felt like Biden's baggage was too great, and my state was in play, I would either sit it out, or vote third party. So far, I don't feel like Biden's baggage is too great to do that.

Isn't that the same position you guys have been bitching at me about? Just replace "Biden" with "Trump".

(07-02-2020 03:29 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:  i would say that *any* graduated income tax is rooted in socialism -- it is a route to redistribute wealth (and obligations) to differing people based exclusively in the concept of the war cry of progressivism -- their 'fair' share.

You cannot escape that the roots of *any* progressive income taxation is in itself a version of socialism --- it is the taking of personal property, and allocated expressly in the notion of the redistribution of that obligation based on 'equity' and 'fairness'.

The levels that the progressive tax rises to is not an indication of whether or not it is socialistic in nature, the singular fact in the disparate allocation absed solely on 'fairness' makes any progressive tax 'socialistic'.

The amount of confiscation only goes to how far down the collectivist (socialistic) path it should be considered as.

Agree.

(07-02-2020 05:10 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(07-02-2020 03:19 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  As I said, I can admit that my likely vote for Biden inherently means I endorse his baggage.
If I felt like Biden's baggage was too great, and my state was in play, I would either sit it out, or vote third party. So far, I don't feel like Biden's baggage is too great to do that.

Isn't that the same position you guys have been bitching at me about? Just replace "Biden" with "Trump".

Exactly.

It seems to me that democrats want elections to be about personalities. Republicans do better when they make them about issues.

Is Joe Biden more likable than Donald Trump? Marginally.
But are his issue positions worse than Donald Trump's? Monumentally.

(07-02-2020 03:08 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  

(07-02-2020 02:53 PM)Rice93 Wrote:  Why do you think that it is not issues for those of us on the left?

I think Trump is a total dumpster fire of a human being, however if I liked the direction that he was steering the country I would not have a problem voting for him (assuming that I believed that he would steer the country in a better direction than the opposing candidate).

You guys seem to be of the opinion that it is simply OMB for all of us (sort of like the "blind" Trump voter who can't use evidence to make a decision. You guys take great offense at this portrayal.). We can hate the man AND hate his policies. I have enough hate for both!

Nobody cares that you don't like Trump... We can hate the man just as much AND STILL prefer his (flawed) policies to Biden's.... especially in that we know that Biden is a puppet.

I disagree with the bolded. People on this forum ABSOLUTELY care that we hate Trump. In fact... any criticism of his policies gets wiped away by accusing us of being unable to participate in an objective analysis due to our collective OMB psychosis.

(07-02-2020 05:10 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(07-02-2020 03:19 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  As I said, I can admit that my likely vote for Biden inherently means I endorse his baggage.

If I felt like Biden's baggage was too great, and my state was in play, I would either sit it out, or vote third party. So far, I don't feel like Biden's baggage is too great to do that.

Isn't that the same position you guys have been bitching at me about? Just replace "Biden" with "Trump".

No, I’ve been bitching that people haven’t been honest by trying to say this isn’t the same thing as what Trump said about shooting someone on 5th Ave and still being supported.

If Biden shot someone on 5th Ave, I wouldn’t vote for Trump, but I sure as heck wouldn’t vote for Biden.

Y’all missed the boat clearly. My comments started because AE was spot on, but posters kept trying to say he wasn’t.

(07-02-2020 05:20 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  It seems to me that democrats want elections to be about personalities. Republicans do better when they make them about issues.

Is Joe Biden more likable than Donald Trump? Marginally.
But are his issue positions worse than Donald Trump's? Monumentally.

Of course they are to you.

A lot of people believe the reverse.

(07-02-2020 05:29 PM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(07-02-2020 05:20 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  It seems to me that democrats want elections to be about personalities. Republicans do better when they make them about issues.
Is Joe Biden more likable than Donald Trump? Marginally.
But are his issue positions worse than Donald Trump's? Monumentally.

Of course they are to you.
A lot of people believe the reverse.

Of course. Let them vote for Biden. I can't.

(07-02-2020 05:01 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(07-02-2020 02:40 PM)mrbig Wrote:  I don't think I have ever said anything about "absolute bar". There are hundreds of reasons why I think Trump is basically the worst possible President. Him personally profiting and his family profiting from his presidency in unorthodox ways is merely one of hundreds.

And those ways are?
And your proof is?

I can think of few worse ways to spend my time. The thought of typing it exhausts me and the thought of reading point-by-point responses sickens me Why would you even want to read something like that from someone that you self-describe as an enemy? Not sure if you are a masochist, but that sounds like a painful, excruciating, rip-your-eyes out experience.

(07-02-2020 05:29 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(07-02-2020 05:10 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(07-02-2020 03:19 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  As I said, I can admit that my likely vote for Biden inherently means I endorse his baggage.

If I felt like Biden's baggage was too great, and my state was in play, I would either sit it out, or vote third party. So far, I don't feel like Biden's baggage is too great to do that.

Isn't that the same position you guys have been bitching at me about? Just replace "Biden" with "Trump".

No, I’ve been bitching that people haven’t been honest by trying to say this isn’t the same thing as what Trump said about shooting someone on 5th Ave and still being supported.

If Biden shot someone on 5th Ave, I wouldn’t vote for Trump, but I sure as heck wouldn’t vote for Biden.

Y’all missed the boat clearly. My comments started because AE was spot on, but posters kept trying to say he wasn’t.

I didn't realized we had shifted away from reality to fantasy. Sorry.

(07-02-2020 05:09 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(07-02-2020 02:40 PM)mrbig Wrote:  

(07-02-2020 06:03 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  I think Biden is the perfect candidate for those of your ilk. He is the Trojan horse.

Times number 69, 70, and 75 that one of the conservatives on here have incorrectly described me.

And what is incorrect about that?

Everything? I have repeatedly written that I am not a big fan of the Bernie wing of the party and generally preferred the more mainstream democratic positions. I have repeatedly written that Biden was not at all my 1st choice. So not only is Biden not my perfect candidate, but I am not part of the “ilk“ you described in your post. I don’t want some secret-Bernie coming in as a Trojan horse. So everything you wrote in those 2 sentences was incorrect.

(07-02-2020 05:46 PM)mrbig Wrote:  

(07-02-2020 05:01 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(07-02-2020 02:40 PM)mrbig Wrote:  I don't think I have ever said anything about "absolute bar". There are hundreds of reasons why I think Trump is basically the worst possible President. Him personally profiting and his family profiting from his presidency in unorthodox ways is merely one of hundreds.

And those ways are?
And your proof is?

I can think of few worse ways to spend my time. The thought of typing it exhausts me and the thought of reading point-by-point responses sickens me Why would you even want to read something like that from someone that you self-describe as an enemy? Not sure if you are a masochist, but that sounds like a painful, excruciating, rip-your-eyes out experience.

No, I just want to know if you have anything other than allegation and innuendo to support your position.

(07-02-2020 05:51 PM)mrbig Wrote:  I don’t want some secret-Bernie coming in as a Trojan horse.

It won't be Bernie, because Bernie's not a woman. And whoever it is won't come in as a Trojan horse, that's Biden's job. She'll be the cargo the Trojan horse is carrying.

And you can protest all day that you don't want it, but I'd infer from your other comments that you'd be just fine if it happened.

(07-02-2020 05:29 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(07-02-2020 05:10 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(07-02-2020 03:19 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  As I said, I can admit that my likely vote for Biden inherently means I endorse his baggage.

If I felt like Biden's baggage was too great, and my state was in play, I would either sit it out, or vote third party. So far, I don't feel like Biden's baggage is too great to do that.

Isn't that the same position you guys have been bitching at me about? Just replace "Biden" with "Trump".

No, I’ve been bitching that people haven’t been honest by trying to say this isn’t the same thing as what Trump said about shooting someone on 5th Ave and still being supported.

If Biden shot someone on 5th Ave, I wouldn’t vote for Trump, but I sure as heck wouldn’t vote for Biden.

Y’all missed the boat clearly. My comments started because AE was spot on, but posters kept trying to say he wasn’t.

Funny, I have yet to see anyone here say they would vote for Trump if he shot someone. Nor have I seen that for the great, great, great..... (repeat 1000 times) part.

Yet according to you 'AE was spot on'. Yeah, there is *zero* pre-judgement of Trump voters in that statement.

The funny thing is that you seemingly say that seriously, commenting in terms of how ignorant Trump voters must be; too bad you cant turn that critical eye of all knowing discernment back towards yourself when you say "My comments started because AE was spot on". Funny that statement, isnt it, without any iota of self-reflection in making it..... lolz....

Yep, true comedy gold.

Biden has baggage, apparently quite a bit. So, obviously, does Trump. If it were just Trump v. Biden, absent issues, I might well vote for Biden in the end.

But it's not Trump v. Biden, absent issues. It's Trump with his baggage v. Biden with his baggage, plus wealth taxes, plus the Green New Deal, plus single-payer health care, plus strict gun controls. If government controls your health care and takes away your guns, you are basically a slave. And Trump can't have enough baggage to make me vote for Biden with all those things. Trump can have enough baggage to make me not vote for Trump. But that means I just vote for Jo Jorgensen (even though her VP running mate is a nutcase).

(07-02-2020 05:58 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(07-02-2020 05:51 PM)mrbig Wrote:  I don’t want some secret-Bernie coming in as a Trojan horse.

It won't be Bernie, because Bernie's not a woman. And whoever it is won't come in as a Trojan horse, that's Biden's job. She'll be the cargo the Trojan horse is carrying.

And you can protest all day that you don't want it, but I'd infer from your other comments that you'd be just fine if it happened.

This seems to be a speciality of yours, OO, and to a lesser extent Hambone. I don't think Tanq has been as bad about this. The other conservative posters (most of whom post less frequently) have not done it to my memory. Sometimes it feels like you and OO and think you know me better than I know myself, which is pretty impressive for two guys who have never met me in person or interacted with me outside of the written word!

(07-02-2020 11:58 PM)mrbig Wrote:  

(07-02-2020 05:58 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(07-02-2020 05:51 PM)mrbig Wrote:  I don’t want some secret-Bernie coming in as a Trojan horse.

It won't be Bernie, because Bernie's not a woman. And whoever it is won't come in as a Trojan horse, that's Biden's job. She'll be the cargo the Trojan horse is carrying.

And you can protest all day that you don't want it, but I'd infer from your other comments that you'd be just fine if it happened.

This seems to be a speciality of yours, OO, and to a lesser extent Hambone. I don't think Tanq has been as bad about this. The other conservative posters (most of whom post less frequently) have not done it to my memory. Sometimes it feels like you and OO and think you know me better than I know myself, which is pretty impressive for two guys who have never met me in person or interacted with me outside of the written word!

It's just amazing that so many diverse people have the same problem with you. Everybody is out of step but you. Must be a conspiracy. Maybe Russians. Or Trump aides. Or little green Trumpbots.

Sorry to burst your self-pity bubble, but my problem is with the party you support and their policies. You may have been splashed with a little guilt by association, but so have we all. Glad to know you are listening to me. Maybe someday you will hear me.

(07-02-2020 11:58 PM)mrbig Wrote:  

(07-02-2020 05:58 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(07-02-2020 05:51 PM)mrbig Wrote:  I don’t want some secret-Bernie coming in as a Trojan horse.

It won't be Bernie, because Bernie's not a woman. And whoever it is won't come in as a Trojan horse, that's Biden's job. She'll be the cargo the Trojan horse is carrying.
And you can protest all day that you don't want it, but I'd infer from your other comments that you'd be just fine if it happened.

This seems to be a speciality of yours, OO, and to a lesser extent Hambone. I don't think Tanq has been as bad about this. The other conservative posters (most of whom post less frequently) have not done it to my memory. Sometimes it feels like you and OO and think you know me better than I know myself, which is pretty impressive for two guys who have never met me in person or interacted with me outside of the written word!

If you want to refute my comment, the correct way to do so is to state that you would not be fine with that, and then to post comments elsewhere that are consistent with that statement, not to engage in ad hominem deflection.

I have inferred from your failure to refute or oppose statements by the likes of AOC and Bernie in other threads that, despite your denial here, you are fine with them.

I don't know you better than you know yourself, and make no such claim. As you state, all I know are your written words on here, and they paint a pretty clear picture.

Here's what I don't understand:

KKK makes statement supporting conservative + Conservative calls out KKK = Conservative supports KKK

but

Antifa, BLM, others make pro-communist statements + Leftist excuses or supports Antifa, BLM, others = Leftist does not support communism

Can you explain?

From your posts regarding sports, I think you are a good guy and a Rice supporter. I would like to believe that you have more moderate views than the leftist extremists, whom I view as Alinsky socialist/communist radicals. But you have to supply the data to support that. And this denial, coupled with your failure to call out the Alinsky socialist/communist radicals elsewhere, doesn't get you there.

(07-03-2020 06:20 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(07-02-2020 11:58 PM)mrbig Wrote:  

(07-02-2020 05:58 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(07-02-2020 05:51 PM)mrbig Wrote:  I don’t want some secret-Bernie coming in as a Trojan horse.

It won't be Bernie, because Bernie's not a woman. And whoever it is won't come in as a Trojan horse, that's Biden's job. She'll be the cargo the Trojan horse is carrying.
And you can protest all day that you don't want it, but I'd infer from your other comments that you'd be just fine if it happened.

This seems to be a speciality of yours, OO, and to a lesser extent Hambone. I don't think Tanq has been as bad about this. The other conservative posters (most of whom post less frequently) have not done it to my memory. Sometimes it feels like you and OO and think you know me better than I know myself, which is pretty impressive for two guys who have never met me in person or interacted with me outside of the written word!

If you want to refute my comment, the correct way to do so is to state that you would not be fine with that, and then to post comments elsewhere that are consistent with that statement, not to engage in ad hominem deflection.

I have inferred from your failure to refute or oppose statements by the likes of AOC and Bernie in other threads that, despite your denial here, you are fine with them.

I don't know you better than you know yourself, and make no such claim. As you state, all I know are your written words on here, and they paint a pretty clear picture.

Here's what I don't understand:

KKK makes statement supporting conservative + Conservative calls out KKK = Conservative supports KKK

but

Antifa, BLM, others make pro-communist statements + Leftist excuses or supports Antifa, BLM, others = Leftist does not support communism

Can you explain?

From your posts regarding sports, I think you are a good guy and a Rice supporter. I would like to believe that you have more moderate views than the leftist extremists, whom I view as Alinsky socialist/communist radicals. But you have to supply the data to support that. And this denial, coupled with your failure to call out the Alinsky socialist/communist radicals elsewhere, doesn't get you there.

Can you point to pro-Communist statements from Antifa and BLM? For the former, I don’t think I’ve ever actually read a statement from Antifa. I can’t even name a single person associated with them. And similar for the latter - I know some outspoken celebrities who have spoken for BLM (like Killer Mike), but I don’t remember any of them specifically talking about taking back the means of production or trying to implement true, central planning.

Does Antifa actually advocate for communism?

And you can even find numerous posts of liberal politicians condemning the rioting/violence around recent protests. People who use violence or intimidation to further their political goals should receive no support - those aren’t the means that should be used. The issue with widespread condemnation of either BLM protests devolving into riots or right-wing protests using weapons to intimidate others, is that the content of the protests are often supported by many people.

By the way, I can clearly point to David Duke, as an avowed racist who is established in the Republican Party, or all those Republican Party officials on Texas who recently resigned for racist social media posts. So despite some condemnations, these things keep happening and people like that keep popping up in positions of relevance. So y’all just gotta keep fighting the good fight and kicking out and condemning people like that, and those who would shout “Blood and soil” and “ the Jews will not replace us” at events called “Unite the Right.”

(07-03-2020 07:18 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  I don’t remember any of them specifically talking about taking back the means of production or trying to implement true, central planning.

Yet I do note them talking about hijacking the apparatus of government to initiate their version of economic and social regulation in the name of 'fairness.' You know, the form of socialist/collectivist/redistributionist you simply try to erase out of existence on a rather continuous basis. Imagine that. Kind of sucks when the talking point turns on an incorrect assumption in the philosophy.

But I know you dont like to even acknowledge that facet of socialism, and would prefer to ignore that pesky little issue, because it is fairly damaging. Again, imagine that.

Kind of a dishonest turn you seemingly take here in your mode of argument.

Once again, what does the term that follows the word 'National' in the name of the party that guided Germany in 1935-1945?

Perhaps you would like to tells us the major political philosophy that influenced the party that Mussolini brought into power?

Hmmm.... can you also tell us why the answers to both of the above are 'socialist' and never owned the means of production? Can you say that neither was 'socialist' with a straight face?