(06-03-2020 09:23 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:  I guess you certainly went completely out of your way to distinguish the effects of pepper balls and tear gas. You were completely clear that the effects were completely different. Got it.

I dont find your conduct 'offensive', just evasive.

Here is what is said:

Me: the proof that tear gas was not used is that the authorities didnt use gas masks as they should.

You: some of them used gas masks (ohh, you werent talking about tear gas in that response to a comment about tear gas, completely clear now. You just made that response for ***** giggles I guess, just because it is some random thought about gas masks and not about the rationale in my comment. But, lets continue....)

Me: if you use tear gas, everyone on the deploying side will use a mask. Glad that some of them did. You dont even address that tear gas will totally screw up everyone that is unprotected.

The only reason that I pointed out the gas mask photos is that you said that there weren't any photos of policemen wearing them in the park. There were, however, National Guard members wearing them and that fact seemed to be relevent to our discussion. I figure if they are deploying these Skat Shells (https://www.defense-technology.com/on/de..._Shell.pdf) then it would make sense to use gas masks. I didn't think that masks were ONLY used in the event of tear gas. I figured that they were used for various chemicals. Is that wrong?

Quote:You: but, but, but, but, PERHAPS the military fked up......

but, but, but, but, PERHAPS there wasn't time for adequate coordination among all units providing security?

but, but, but, but, PERHAPS why were the National Guard wearing masks?

but, but, but, but, PERHAPS shouldn't the park police have been using masks as well?

To quote a previous poster... is there actually somebody in your life that gives you positive reinforcement for behavior like this?

Quote:Otay, Got it. All those comments *again* had zero to do with your stance that tear gas *could have been used*. All those protestations were again for ***** and giggles.

Is that enough of a synopsis for you?

On the issue of pepper balls, you adamantly *tried* to show the effect was like tear gas. Criminy you even bolded a section that you thought was proof positive. The problem is that you were pulling stuff out of your ass. Or, were you just pulling random articles about pepper balls out for the thrill of it? Were you highlighting items that you thought important for just strange random reasons?

From what I've read, the effect of those shells is, in fact, "like" tear gas. Based on what you say it probably not as severe as tear gas (the definition of tear gas seems a bit vague when you look it up TBH). I was once in a situation where I got a whiff of what you would probably consider a pepper ball and it was pretty awful.

Quote:Taking you at your word that you were never defending the position that tear gas was used, given all those random as crap actions (since they are not defenses of that position in the slightest, nor meant to be), next time just preface your post with a disclaimer. Something like, "I am not responding to the comment copied in my reply in the slightest, and I am posting 'what abouts' by the bushel, and pulling random articles and highlighting items that, while they appear a defense for a position, are actually just for ***** and giggles and purely random reasons." That will save us a lot of time there. Just saying.

--------

Edited to add: Honestly I would prefer that you expand on your grandiose comment about the systemic problems that you have yelped about, to be frank. Again. Actually for the third time.

But I see your response is that you are maddy poo, and you just wont do that. Predictable you would run away from that comment with that type of move.

I'm not even a little bit mad, Tanq. I'm not going to get mad over what somebody writes on an internet forum. It's simply not that enjoyable to interact with people who behave like you do. The others can disagree with me and imply that I'm a dumbs*** without all the tiresome histrionics and the name-calling. Again... I blame myself for engaging you despite my better judgement sometimes.

(06-03-2020 09:56 PM)Rice93 Wrote:  I'm not even a little bit mad, Tanq. I'm not going to get mad over what somebody writes on an internet forum. It's simply not that enjoyable to interact with people who behave like you do. The others can disagree with me and imply that I'm a dumbs*** without all the tiresome histrionics and the name-calling. Again... I blame myself for engaging you despite my better judgement sometimes.

Got it. Then you are simply refusing to answer a question on your comment simply because. Sounds like a plan.

And also got the other point. You simply pulled up all those other tangent issues and asked a series of rhetorical off point questions for ***** and giggles. Awesome. Glad we cleared up that misunderstanding.

Quote:“Donald Trump is the first president in my lifetime who does not try to unite the American people—does not even pretend to try. Instead, he tries to divide us,” Mattis writes. “We are witnessing the consequences of three years of this deliberate effort. We are witnessing the consequences of three years without mature leadership. We can unite without him, drawing on the strengths inherent in our civil society. This will not be easy, as the past few days have shown, but we owe it to our fellow citizens; to past generations that bled to defend our promise; and to our children.”

He goes on to contrast the American ethos of unity with Nazi ideology. “Instructions given by the military departments to our troops before the Normandy invasion reminded soldiers that ‘The Nazi slogan for destroying us … was “Divide and Conquer.” Our American answer is “In Union there is Strength.”’ We must summon that unity to surmount this crisis—confident that we are better than our politics.”

Mattis today on Trump.

(06-03-2020 09:56 PM)Rice93 Wrote:  

Quote:You: but, but, but, but, PERHAPS the military fked up......

but, but, but, but, PERHAPS there wasn't time for adequate coordination among all units providing security?

but, but, but, but, PERHAPS why were the National Guard wearing masks?

but, but, but, but, PERHAPS shouldn't the park police have been using masks as well?

To quote a previous poster... is there actually somebody in your life that gives you positive reinforcement for behavior like this?

'Behavior like this'? All I did was to, for the absolute most part, repeat *your* questions in that section that you pull out for that chastisement.

Funny thing to go on a tear about.

(06-03-2020 10:57 PM)At Ease Wrote:  

Quote:“Donald Trump is the first president in my lifetime who does not try to unite the American people—does not even pretend to try. Instead, he tries to divide us,” Mattis writes. “We are witnessing the consequences of three years of this deliberate effort. We are witnessing the consequences of three years without mature leadership. We can unite without him, drawing on the strengths inherent in our civil society. This will not be easy, as the past few days have shown, but we owe it to our fellow citizens; to past generations that bled to defend our promise; and to our children.”

He goes on to contrast the American ethos of unity with Nazi ideology. “Instructions given by the military departments to our troops before the Normandy invasion reminded soldiers that ‘The Nazi slogan for destroying us … was “Divide and Conquer.” Our American answer is “In Union there is Strength.”’ We must summon that unity to surmount this crisis—confident that we are better than our politics.”

Mattis today on Trump.

I can agree with the first sentence and the general point that Trump hasn't ever even come close to fulfilling his pre-election promise to be "so presidential" it would be boring. If only.

But to say that an unprecedented nationwide orgy of rioting and looting stems solely from Trump's poor leadership is ludicrous. It doesn't stem from it even partially. When every Republican president in memory has literally been equated with Hitler, how can Trump be some sort of special case?

No, it stems from pathology in modern liberal thought that promotes unhinged, sophomoric ideas like "defund the police" and that a country that elected a black president and has thousands upon thousands of black leaders -- and cops -- is actually a racist, oppressive hell where it is state policy to kill unarmed black men. And from 40 million people suddenly finding themselves out of work because liberals were only too eager to believe incompetent doctors who told them that stopping capitalism was necessary to stop a virus that far and away affects only people who have long since retired from work. Those were all the ingredients needed in this powder keg.

(06-04-2020 02:32 AM)illiniowl Wrote:  

(06-03-2020 10:57 PM)At Ease Wrote:  

Quote:“Donald Trump is the first president in my lifetime who does not try to unite the American people—does not even pretend to try. Instead, he tries to divide us,” Mattis writes. “We are witnessing the consequences of three years of this deliberate effort. We are witnessing the consequences of three years without mature leadership. We can unite without him, drawing on the strengths inherent in our civil society. This will not be easy, as the past few days have shown, but we owe it to our fellow citizens; to past generations that bled to defend our promise; and to our children.”

He goes on to contrast the American ethos of unity with Nazi ideology. “Instructions given by the military departments to our troops before the Normandy invasion reminded soldiers that ‘The Nazi slogan for destroying us … was “Divide and Conquer.” Our American answer is “In Union there is Strength.”’ We must summon that unity to surmount this crisis—confident that we are better than our politics.”

Mattis today on Trump.

I can agree with the first sentence and the general point that Trump hasn't ever even come close to fulfilling his pre-election promise to be "so presidential" it would be boring. If only.

But to say that an unprecedented nationwide orgy of rioting and looting stems solely from Trump's poor leadership is ludicrous. It doesn't stem from it even partially. When every Republican president in memory has literally been equated with Hitler, how can Trump be some sort of special case?

No, it stems from pathology in modern liberal thought that promotes unhinged, sophomoric ideas like "defund the police" and that a country that elected a black president and has thousands upon thousands of black leaders -- and cops -- is actually a racist, oppressive hell where it is state policy to kill unarmed black men. And from 40 million people suddenly finding themselves out of work because liberals were only too eager to believe incompetent doctors who told them that stopping capitalism was necessary to stop a virus that far and away affects only people who have long since retired from work. Those were all the ingredients needed in this powder keg.

Boil this post down and it’s a tribalistic “Liberals bad, conservatives good.” It’s pretty impressive how all the blame is shifted to liberals, as opposed to evenly spread, as it should be.

Your post ignores that plenty of conservatives also believe “incompetent doctors” and who implemented severe economic restrictions to stem the coronavirus tide. So it hasn’t just been liberals who were willing to listen to experts and make hard choices. It also ignores that people would have curtailed economic activity without sever lockdown, since transmission of the virus was not well known at the start of this pandemic, so the exact magnitude of the extra economic depression isn’t exactly clear. It also ignores that hospital systems in hard hit areas were overrun (and many currently have ICUs operating near max capacity). It also ignores that we do not know the exact extent to which no economic restriction would have resulted in more hot spots in areas that have not been hard hit - just look at Sweden, where GDP is expected to shrink significantly, without the same level of restrictions. In short, there was no perfect answer, and it certainly isn’t the liberals’ fault for that.

This also ignores that liberals had been protesting the exact same issue of police brutality, but had been told that peacefully kneeling during the national anthem wasn’t appropriate. The grievance isn’t new, and the grievance has legitimacy about the structural issues that result in biased outcomes in policing.

This also ignores that Trump, while obviously not the cause of these protests, has done nothing but throw kerosene into the fire by trying to do exactly what this post does, and make this a tribalistic issue, which doesn’t actually discuss the legitimacy of the grievances.

Mattis seems like a really reasonable guy, one who is patriotic, intelligent, and thoughtful.

(06-04-2020 06:13 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(06-04-2020 02:32 AM)illiniowl Wrote:  I can agree with the first sentence and the general point that Trump hasn't ever even come close to fulfilling his pre-election promise to be "so presidential" it would be boring. If only.

But to say that an unprecedented nationwide orgy of rioting and looting stems solely from Trump's poor leadership is ludicrous. It doesn't stem from it even partially. When every Republican president in memory has literally been equated with Hitler, how can Trump be some sort of special case?

No, it stems from pathology in modern liberal thought that promotes unhinged, sophomoric ideas like "defund the police" and that a country that elected a black president and has thousands upon thousands of black leaders -- and cops -- is actually a racist, oppressive hell where it is state policy to kill unarmed black men. And from 40 million people suddenly finding themselves out of work because liberals were only too eager to believe incompetent doctors who told them that stopping capitalism was necessary to stop a virus that far and away affects only people who have long since retired from work. Those were all the ingredients needed in this powder keg.

Boil this post down and it’s a tribalistic “Liberals bad, conservatives good.” It’s pretty impressive how all the blame is shifted to liberals, as opposed to evenly spread, as it should be.

Your post ignores that plenty of conservatives also believe “incompetent doctors” and who implemented severe economic restrictions to stem the coronavirus tide. So it hasn’t just been liberals who were willing to listen to experts and make hard choices. It also ignores that people would have curtailed economic activity without sever lockdown, since transmission of the virus was not well known at the start of this pandemic, so the exact magnitude of the extra economic depression isn’t exactly clear. It also ignores that hospital systems in hard hit areas were overrun (and many currently have ICUs operating near max capacity). It also ignores that we do not know the exact extent to which no economic restriction would have resulted in more hot spots in areas that have not been hard hit - just look at Sweden, where GDP is expected to shrink significantly, without the same level of restrictions. In short, there was no perfect answer, and it certainly isn’t the liberals’ fault for that.

This also ignores that liberals had been protesting the exact same issue of police brutality, but had been told that peacefully kneeling during the national anthem wasn’t appropriate. The grievance isn’t new, and the grievance has legitimacy about the structural issues that result in biased outcomes in policing.

This also ignores that Trump, while obviously not the cause of these protests, has done nothing but throw kerosene into the fire by trying to do exactly what this post does, and make this a tribalistic issue, which doesn’t actually discuss the legitimacy of the grievances.

Mattis seems like a really reasonable guy, one who is patriotic, intelligent, and thoughtful.

First, I very much will agree with you that the implementation of the severe economic freeze has support from both sides of the ideological spectrum. But, one has to say that the severest and most confusing array or lockdowns seemingly has occurred under progressive guidance.

So I would agree with you that while both sides have their hand 'dirty' in the lockdowns, one also has to agree that it is not the left that is racing in equal effort as the right to address the equally as important economic issues that the lockdowns present. Just note the Illinois governor, Witmer, and bevy of other progressive administrations that show on a much greater scale their lack of reticence to play the heavy hand of government in this.

Second, I doubt very seriously that you can ascribe *any* of the rioting, looting, and torching of large swaths of our nation to the support of *any* form of conservative or libertarian ideology or cause. That is excepting the weird segment of libertarian branch that seemingly calls for 'near anarchy'. If not, please name one.

Quote:This also ignores that liberals had been protesting the exact same issue of police brutality,

No, you all are *not* protesting, and rioting over, not the issue of 'police brutality'. Had than been the case where were the marches (and riots) over *any* Caucasian deaths or shootings at the hands of police. Please stop with that over general canard.

The reason the protesting and rioting is occurring is because of the belief, stated above, that the progressive cause is to preach 'that a country that elected a black president and has thousands upon thousands of black leaders -- and cops -- is actually a racist, oppressive hell where it is state policy to kill unarmed black men.'
Maybe not 'state policy', which is an exaggeration but from what I see emanating from the mouths of every progressive politician is that the issue is endemic *solely* to the non-whites of this nation, and no one else.

So *that* isnt amazing divisive in and of itself to a massive extent? I mean, you completely fail to note that, then run the spin move when you reserve that polemic to Trump. To whom you note hasnt just aided divisive behavior, you note that he "has done NOTHING BUT add kerosene to that fire" (direct quote).

You also note "The grievance isn’t new" -- correct, you all keep preaching what a holy hell this nation is to anyone of color, pretty much in every topic in existence, mind you. In this manner you seriously overlook that the subject of race and bias is slung about like confetti on *every* topic in existence and under the sun by progressives. Voting -- check; police force -- check; incarceration rates -- check; bail -- check; housing -- check; I mean Christ sakes you all even make COVID rates subject to your extra special 'discrimination de jure under every subject under the sun (and in the microbiome for that matter).

Then you wax poetic about "the structural issues that result in biased outcomes in policing". If anything, the issue should be about the usage of force by police in general. The progressives dutifully make the first comment it is (like you just went down that merry path), then always return to 'the BIASED outcome in policing' (again, which you dutifully return to like a bee to an empty bottle of Dr Pepper.)

I guess throwing that race card in full force at every fing opportunity has *zero* divisive effect.

In closing, let's assume that the 'systemic issues" (which have been bandied about in huge generalities and colorful, rhetorical language, but never denoted specifically to enable an objective disussion) are as what progressives teach to their bones bleach white. Let's assume that in all instances, and all efforts, the America is holy hell that is unable to be lived in by minorities. Given that, let us assume that specifically the use of police force is such a pervasive and endemic issue wholly borne by blacks, chicanos, aleuts, or whatever the favored minority de jour is today. Let is take that as a given.

If so then this cite sums up a powerful point in light of that vision of hell on earth:

Quote:Minneapolis, Minn. has been under Democratic control since 1978. Chicago has been under Democratic control for 89 years; its present mayor is a black woman. Philadelphia has had Democratic mayors for 68 years; three of its last five mayors have been black men. Six of the last seven Atlanta, Ga., mayoral administrations were led by black Democratic mayors, and the present mayor is a black woman.

A city runs its police department and other services; therefore, if there is so much ‘systemic racism’ in these organizations, why hasn’t it been corrected over so many years under Democratic leaders?

Why aren’t these cities garden spots of racial tolerance, understanding, and virtue?

The exact same construct can be applied to NYC, Baltimore, and literally jsut about every jurisdiction that has become the haute couture of racistn police use of force in the last 30 years.

Hate to tell you Frank Rizzo and Mayor Daley have been dead for scores of years.

Amazing that, isnt it?

(06-04-2020 08:12 AM)tanqtonic Wrote:  

(06-04-2020 06:13 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(06-04-2020 02:32 AM)illiniowl Wrote:  

(06-03-2020 10:57 PM)At Ease Wrote:  

Quote:“Donald Trump is the first president in my lifetime who does not try to unite the American people—does not even pretend to try. Instead, he tries to divide us,” Mattis writes. “We are witnessing the consequences of three years of this deliberate effort. We are witnessing the consequences of three years without mature leadership. We can unite without him, drawing on the strengths inherent in our civil society. This will not be easy, as the past few days have shown, but we owe it to our fellow citizens; to past generations that bled to defend our promise; and to our children.”

He goes on to contrast the American ethos of unity with Nazi ideology. “Instructions given by the military departments to our troops before the Normandy invasion reminded soldiers that ‘The Nazi slogan for destroying us … was “Divide and Conquer.” Our American answer is “In Union there is Strength.”’ We must summon that unity to surmount this crisis—confident that we are better than our politics.”

Mattis today on Trump.

I can agree with the first sentence and the general point that Trump hasn't ever even come close to fulfilling his pre-election promise to be "so presidential" it would be boring. If only.

But to say that an unprecedented nationwide orgy of rioting and looting stems solely from Trump's poor leadership is ludicrous. It doesn't stem from it even partially. When every Republican president in memory has literally been equated with Hitler, how can Trump be some sort of special case?

No, it stems from pathology in modern liberal thought that promotes unhinged, sophomoric ideas like "defund the police" and that a country that elected a black president and has thousands upon thousands of black leaders -- and cops -- is actually a racist, oppressive hell where it is state policy to kill unarmed black men. And from 40 million people suddenly finding themselves out of work because liberals were only too eager to believe incompetent doctors who told them that stopping capitalism was necessary to stop a virus that far and away affects only people who have long since retired from work. Those were all the ingredients needed in this powder keg.

Boil this post down and it’s a tribalistic “Liberals bad, conservatives good.” It’s pretty impressive how all the blame is shifted to liberals, as opposed to evenly spread, as it should be.

Your post ignores that plenty of conservatives also believe “incompetent doctors” and who implemented severe economic restrictions to stem the coronavirus tide. So it hasn’t just been liberals who were willing to listen to experts and make hard choices. It also ignores that people would have curtailed economic activity without sever lockdown, since transmission of the virus was not well known at the start of this pandemic, so the exact magnitude of the extra economic depression isn’t exactly clear. It also ignores that hospital systems in hard hit areas were overrun (and many currently have ICUs operating near max capacity). It also ignores that we do not know the exact extent to which no economic restriction would have resulted in more hot spots in areas that have not been hard hit - just look at Sweden, where GDP is expected to shrink significantly, without the same level of restrictions. In short, there was no perfect answer, and it certainly isn’t the liberals’ fault for that.

This also ignores that liberals had been protesting the exact same issue of police brutality, but had been told that peacefully kneeling during the national anthem wasn’t appropriate. The grievance isn’t new, and the grievance has legitimacy about the structural issues that result in biased outcomes in policing.

This also ignores that Trump, while obviously not the cause of these protests, has done nothing but throw kerosene into the fire by trying to do exactly what this post does, and make this a tribalistic issue, which doesn’t actually discuss the legitimacy of the grievances.

Mattis seems like a really reasonable guy, one who is patriotic, intelligent, and thoughtful.

First, I very much will agree with you that the implementation of the severe economic freeze has support from both sides of the ideological spectrum. But, one has to say that the severest and most confusing array or lockdowns seemingly has occurred under progressive guidance.

So I would agree with you that while both sides have their hand 'dirty' in the lockdowns, one also has to agree that it is not the left that is racing in equal effort as the right to address the equally as important economic issues that the lockdowns present. Just note the Illinois governor, Witmer, and bevy of other progressive administrations that show on a much greater scale their lack of reticence to play the heavy hand of government in this.

Second, I doubt very seriously that you can ascribe *any* of the rioting, looting, and torching of large swaths of our nation to the support of *any* form of conservative or libertarian ideology or cause. That is excepting the weird segment of libertarian branch that seemingly calls for 'near anarchy'. If not, please name one.

Quote:This also ignores that liberals had been protesting the exact same issue of police brutality,

No, you all are *not* protesting, and rioting over, not the issue of 'police brutality'. Had than been the case where were the marches (and riots) over *any* Caucasian deaths or shootings at the hands of police. Please stop with that over general canard.

The reason the protesting and rioting is occurring is because of the belief, stated above, that the progressive cause is to preach 'that a country that elected a black president and has thousands upon thousands of black leaders -- and cops -- is actually a racist, oppressive hell where it is state policy to kill unarmed black men.'
Maybe not 'state policy', which is an exaggeration but from what I see emanating from the mouths of every progressive politician is that the issue is endemic *solely* to the non-whites of this nation, and no one else.

So *that* isnt amazing divisive in and of itself to a massive extent? I mean, you completely fail to note that, then run the spin move when you reserve that polemic to Trump. To whom you note hasnt just aided divisive behavior, you note that he "has done NOTHING BUT add kerosene to that fire" (direct quote).

You also note "The grievance isn’t new" -- correct, you all keep preaching what a holy hell this nation is to anyone of color, pretty much in every topic in existence, mind you. In this manner you seriously overlook that the subject of race and bias is slung about like confetti on *every* topic in existence and under the sun by progressives. Voting -- check; police force -- check; incarceration rates -- check; bail -- check; housing -- check; I mean Christ sakes you all even make COVID rates subject to your extra special 'discrimination de jure under every subject under the sun (and in the microbiome for that matter).

Then you wax poetic about "the structural issues that result in biased outcomes in policing". If anything, the issue should be about the usage of force by police in general. The progressives dutifully make the first comment it is (like you just went down that merry path), then always return to 'the BIASED outcome in policing' (again, which you dutifully return to like a bee to an empty bottle of Dr Pepper.)

I guess throwing that race card in full force at every fing opportunity has *zero* divisive effect.

In closing, let's assume that the 'systemic issues" (which have been bandied about in huge generalities and colorful, rhetorical language, but never denoted specifically to enable an objective disussion) are as what progressives teach to their bones bleach white. Let's assume that in all instances, and all efforts, the America is holy hell that is unable to be lived in by minorities. Given that, let us assume that specifically the use of police force is such a pervasive and endemic issue wholly borne by blacks, chicanos, aleuts, or whatever the favored minority de jour is today. Let is take that as a given.

If so then this cite sums up a powerful point in light of that vision of hell on earth:

Quote:Minneapolis, Minn. has been under Democratic control since 1978. Chicago has been under Democratic control for 89 years; its present mayor is a black woman. Philadelphia has had Democratic mayors for 68 years; three of its last five mayors have been black men. Six of the last seven Atlanta, Ga., mayoral administrations were led by black Democratic mayors, and the present mayor is a black woman.

A city runs its police department and other services; therefore, if there is so much ‘systemic racism’ in these organizations, why hasn’t it been corrected over so many years under Democratic leaders?

Why aren’t these cities garden spots of racial tolerance, understanding, and virtue?

Amazing that, isnt it?

Your final comment is why I, and others, identify this as a systemic issue.

Notice how I didn’t say it was a conservative/Republican issue? Or that it was a liberal/Democratic issue?

(06-04-2020 08:26 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(06-04-2020 08:12 AM)tanqtonic Wrote:  

(06-04-2020 06:13 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(06-04-2020 02:32 AM)illiniowl Wrote:  I can agree with the first sentence and the general point that Trump hasn't ever even come close to fulfilling his pre-election promise to be "so presidential" it would be boring. If only.

But to say that an unprecedented nationwide orgy of rioting and looting stems solely from Trump's poor leadership is ludicrous. It doesn't stem from it even partially. When every Republican president in memory has literally been equated with Hitler, how can Trump be some sort of special case?

No, it stems from pathology in modern liberal thought that promotes unhinged, sophomoric ideas like "defund the police" and that a country that elected a black president and has thousands upon thousands of black leaders -- and cops -- is actually a racist, oppressive hell where it is state policy to kill unarmed black men. And from 40 million people suddenly finding themselves out of work because liberals were only too eager to believe incompetent doctors who told them that stopping capitalism was necessary to stop a virus that far and away affects only people who have long since retired from work. Those were all the ingredients needed in this powder keg.

Boil this post down and it’s a tribalistic “Liberals bad, conservatives good.” It’s pretty impressive how all the blame is shifted to liberals, as opposed to evenly spread, as it should be.

Your post ignores that plenty of conservatives also believe “incompetent doctors” and who implemented severe economic restrictions to stem the coronavirus tide. So it hasn’t just been liberals who were willing to listen to experts and make hard choices. It also ignores that people would have curtailed economic activity without sever lockdown, since transmission of the virus was not well known at the start of this pandemic, so the exact magnitude of the extra economic depression isn’t exactly clear. It also ignores that hospital systems in hard hit areas were overrun (and many currently have ICUs operating near max capacity). It also ignores that we do not know the exact extent to which no economic restriction would have resulted in more hot spots in areas that have not been hard hit - just look at Sweden, where GDP is expected to shrink significantly, without the same level of restrictions. In short, there was no perfect answer, and it certainly isn’t the liberals’ fault for that.

This also ignores that liberals had been protesting the exact same issue of police brutality, but had been told that peacefully kneeling during the national anthem wasn’t appropriate. The grievance isn’t new, and the grievance has legitimacy about the structural issues that result in biased outcomes in policing.

This also ignores that Trump, while obviously not the cause of these protests, has done nothing but throw kerosene into the fire by trying to do exactly what this post does, and make this a tribalistic issue, which doesn’t actually discuss the legitimacy of the grievances.

Mattis seems like a really reasonable guy, one who is patriotic, intelligent, and thoughtful.

First, I very much will agree with you that the implementation of the severe economic freeze has support from both sides of the ideological spectrum. But, one has to say that the severest and most confusing array or lockdowns seemingly has occurred under progressive guidance.

So I would agree with you that while both sides have their hand 'dirty' in the lockdowns, one also has to agree that it is not the left that is racing in equal effort as the right to address the equally as important economic issues that the lockdowns present. Just note the Illinois governor, Witmer, and bevy of other progressive administrations that show on a much greater scale their lack of reticence to play the heavy hand of government in this.

Second, I doubt very seriously that you can ascribe *any* of the rioting, looting, and torching of large swaths of our nation to the support of *any* form of conservative or libertarian ideology or cause. That is excepting the weird segment of libertarian branch that seemingly calls for 'near anarchy'. If not, please name one.

Quote:This also ignores that liberals had been protesting the exact same issue of police brutality,

No, you all are *not* protesting, and rioting over, not the issue of 'police brutality'. Had than been the case where were the marches (and riots) over *any* Caucasian deaths or shootings at the hands of police. Please stop with that over general canard.

The reason the protesting and rioting is occurring is because of the belief, stated above, that the progressive cause is to preach 'that a country that elected a black president and has thousands upon thousands of black leaders -- and cops -- is actually a racist, oppressive hell where it is state policy to kill unarmed black men.'
Maybe not 'state policy', which is an exaggeration but from what I see emanating from the mouths of every progressive politician is that the issue is endemic *solely* to the non-whites of this nation, and no one else.

So *that* isnt amazing divisive in and of itself to a massive extent? I mean, you completely fail to note that, then run the spin move when you reserve that polemic to Trump. To whom you note hasnt just aided divisive behavior, you note that he "has done NOTHING BUT add kerosene to that fire" (direct quote).

You also note "The grievance isn’t new" -- correct, you all keep preaching what a holy hell this nation is to anyone of color, pretty much in every topic in existence, mind you. In this manner you seriously overlook that the subject of race and bias is slung about like confetti on *every* topic in existence and under the sun by progressives. Voting -- check; police force -- check; incarceration rates -- check; bail -- check; housing -- check; I mean Christ sakes you all even make COVID rates subject to your extra special 'discrimination de jure under every subject under the sun (and in the microbiome for that matter).

Then you wax poetic about "the structural issues that result in biased outcomes in policing". If anything, the issue should be about the usage of force by police in general. The progressives dutifully make the first comment it is (like you just went down that merry path), then always return to 'the BIASED outcome in policing' (again, which you dutifully return to like a bee to an empty bottle of Dr Pepper.)

I guess throwing that race card in full force at every fing opportunity has *zero* divisive effect.

In closing, let's assume that the 'systemic issues" (which have been bandied about in huge generalities and colorful, rhetorical language, but never denoted specifically to enable an objective disussion) are as what progressives teach to their bones bleach white. Let's assume that in all instances, and all efforts, the America is holy hell that is unable to be lived in by minorities. Given that, let us assume that specifically the use of police force is such a pervasive and endemic issue wholly borne by blacks, chicanos, aleuts, or whatever the favored minority de jour is today. Let is take that as a given.

If so then this cite sums up a powerful point in light of that vision of hell on earth:

Quote:Minneapolis, Minn. has been under Democratic control since 1978. Chicago has been under Democratic control for 89 years; its present mayor is a black woman. Philadelphia has had Democratic mayors for 68 years; three of its last five mayors have been black men. Six of the last seven Atlanta, Ga., mayoral administrations were led by black Democratic mayors, and the present mayor is a black woman.

A city runs its police department and other services; therefore, if there is so much ‘systemic racism’ in these organizations, why hasn’t it been corrected over so many years under Democratic leaders?

Why aren’t these cities garden spots of racial tolerance, understanding, and virtue?

Amazing that, isnt it?

Your final comment is why I, and others, identify this as a systemic issue.

Notice how I didn’t say it was a conservative/Republican issue? Or that it was a liberal/Democratic issue?

And you still do not address the almost constant war chant that the US is a literal hellhole for anyone in a minority in the present day.

And you still do not address the source of that constant war chant as well.

And you havent even denoted your falling into the trap of noting that "Trump has done NOTHING BUT blah blah blahbity blah".

Is the use of police force a systemic issue? The numbers overall in the arrest rate are exceedingly rare.

Which brings us to the next point, and is best summed up by this question: If stating Black Lives Matter is good, why is stating All Lives Matter bad in the context of police use of force? I think that underlies the polemic that the progressives have stoked for now on thirty years -- the results of which we are now seeing play out in our cities.

(06-04-2020 08:26 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  Your final comment is why I, and others, identify this as a systemic issue.

Notice how I didn’t say it was a conservative/Republican issue? Or that it was a liberal/Democratic issue?

I see the magic words 'systemic issue' raised as the generalized answer to life, the world, and everything once again. Amazing.

I do enjoy how the leftists on this board keep using that magical combination of words to wave their hands as if invoking them is an ancient talisman to ward off evil incarnate (maybe even on a good day it will ward of Orange Man).

Hopefully you have noted my (repeated) previous requests to you all to specifically identify exactly what you mean when you invoke that grouping of ostensibly magic words that are the seeming end of discussion for anything in your mind.

Count this as the fifth fing time I am asking any one of you to do that.

Class?

Class?

Bueller?

(06-04-2020 06:13 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  Boil this post down and it’s a tribalistic “Liberals bad, conservatives good.” It’s pretty impressive how all the blame is shifted to liberals, as opposed to evenly spread, as it should be.

Yet it is your tribe that calls us 'deplorables". it is your tribe that riots and attacks us.

But the most intriguing this is the 50/50 split of blame you propose. where is the evidence for that?

I think in the case of the rioting and civil unrest across the country, we can rightfully put the lion's share of blame on the left.

On the matter of the Covid shutdown, I don't know where to put the blame. But I do know one tribe wants to re-open more than the other, and the other tribe wants to to extend the closings at any economic cost.

Quote:

This also ignores that liberals had been protesting the exact same issue of police brutality, but had been told that peacefully kneeling during the national anthem wasn’t appropriate. The grievance isn’t new, and the grievance has legitimacy about the structural issues that result in biased outcomes in policing.

Police brutality is rare these days. I remember when it wasn't. Take my word for it, things have changed. But in any case, it is not limited to white cops/black citizens. Why do you think it is? Because of the vague charge of "systemic" racism? How do you prove that? But in any case, why hasn't it been addressed and rooted out by the legions of black/Democratic police officials and city and county officials over the last 40-60 years? How can we blame that on the conservatives, when it is the liberals in power where the "brutality" and 'systemic racism" occurs?

IMO, this is not an oppressive country, which is what Kaepernick said was his opinion when he sat for the anthem that first time. Countless followers and copiers of his acts have no idea of what they are following and copying.

I oppose police brutality. In fact, I oppose all brutality. What sensible person doesn't? I have yet to hear anybody say they are for brutality. But I do not follow Kaepernick in despising our country. I don't accept the made up crap about police brutality, since I prefer to believe my own eyes and brain. Let the lemmings follow kaep.

Quote:This also ignores that Trump, while obviously not the cause of these protests, has done nothing but throw kerosene into the fire by trying to do exactly what this post does, and make this a tribalistic issue, which doesn’t actually discuss the legitimacy of the grievances.

I question the legitimacy of the issues. As for Trump I see a president trying to restore law and order (NOT! suppress dissent or the right to assemble, as the MSM would have you believe), and liberals see him as pouring kerosene on the perfectly legitimate rioting, and I think this points up the differences between the tribes, as you put it.

Quote:Mattis seems like a really reasonable guy, one who is patriotic, intelligent, and thoughtful.

Changed your mind, huh?

(06-04-2020 09:17 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(06-04-2020 06:13 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  Boil this post down and it’s a tribalistic “Liberals bad, conservatives good.” It’s pretty impressive how all the blame is shifted to liberals, as opposed to evenly spread, as it should be.

Yet it is your tribe that calls us 'deplorables". it is your tribe that riots and attacks us.

But the most intriguing this is the 50/50 split of blame you propose. where is the evidence for that?

I think in the case of the rioting and civil unrest across the country, we can rightfully put the lion's share of blame on the left.

On the matter of the Covid shutdown, I don't know where to put the blame. But I do know one tribe wants to re-open more than the other, and the other tribe wants to to extend the closings at any economic cost.

Quote:

This also ignores that liberals had been protesting the exact same issue of police brutality, but had been told that peacefully kneeling during the national anthem wasn’t appropriate. The grievance isn’t new, and the grievance has legitimacy about the structural issues that result in biased outcomes in policing.

Police brutality is rare these days. I remember when it wasn't. Take my word for it, things have changed. But in any case, it is not limited to white cops/black citizens. Why do you think it is? Because of the vague charge of "systemic" racism? How do you prove that? But in any case, why hasn't it been addressed and rooted out by the legions of black/Democratic police officials and city and county officials over the last 40-60 years? How can we blame that on the conservatives, when it is the liberals in power where the "brutality" and 'systemic racism" occurs?

IMO, this is not an oppressive country, which is what Kaepernick said was his opinion when he sat for the anthem that first time. Countless followers and copiers of his acts have no idea of what they are following and copying.

I oppose police brutality. In fact, I oppose all brutality. What sensible person doesn't? I have yet to hear anybody say they are for brutality. But I do not follow Kaepernick in despising our country. I don't accept the made up crap about police brutality, since I prefer to believe my own eyes and brain. Let the lemmings follow kaep.

Quote:This also ignores that Trump, while obviously not the cause of these protests, has done nothing but throw kerosene into the fire by trying to do exactly what this post does, and make this a tribalistic issue, which doesn’t actually discuss the legitimacy of the grievances.

I question the legitimacy of the issues. As for Trump I see a president trying to restore law and orde(NOT! suppress dissent or the right to assemble, as the MSM would have you believe), and liberals see him as pouring kerosene on the perfectly legitimate rioting, and I think this points up the differences between the tribes, as you put it.

Quote:Mattis seems like a really reasonable guy, one who is patriotic, intelligent, and thoughtful.

Changed your mind, huh?

Changed my mind on Mattis? I’m impressed you have such a good memory for my posts about the guy - I don’t remember posting about him before.

Can you pull up that post so I can at least know what I said previously?

(06-04-2020 06:13 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  Boil this post down and it’s a tribalistic “Liberals bad, conservatives good.” It’s pretty impressive how all the blame is shifted to liberals, as opposed to evenly spread, as it should be.

Yet it is your tribe that calls us 'deplorables". it is your tribe that riots and attacks us.

But the most intriguing this is the 50/50 split of blame you propose. where is the evidence for that?

I think in the case of the rioting and civil unrest across the country, we can rightfully put the lion's share of blame on the left.

On the matter of the Covid shutdown, I don't know where to put the blame. But I do know one tribe wants to re-open more than the other, and the other tribe wants to to extend the closings at any economic cost.

Quote:

This also ignores that liberals had been protesting the exact same issue of police brutality, but had been told that peacefully kneeling during the national anthem wasn’t appropriate. The grievance isn’t new, and the grievance has legitimacy about the structural issues that result in biased outcomes in policing.

Police brutality is rare these days. I remember when it wasn't. Take my word for it, things have changed. But in any case, it is not limited to white cops/black citizens. Why do you think it is? Because of the vague charge of "systemic" racism? How do you prove that? But in any case, why hasn't it been addressed and rooted out by the legions of black/Democratic police officials and city and county officials over the last 40-60 years? How can we blame that on the conservatives, when it is the liberals in power where the "brutality" and 'systemic racism" occurs?

IMO, this is not an oppressive country, which is what Kaepernick said was his opinion when he sat for the anthem that first time. Countless followers and copiers of his acts have no idea of what they are following and copying.

Quote:This also ignores that Trump, while obviously not the cause of these protests, has done nothing but throw kerosene into the fire by trying to do exactly what this post does, and make this a tribalistic issue, which doesn’t actually discuss the legitimacy of the grievances.

I question the legitimacy of the issues. As for Trump I see a president trying to restore law and order, and liberals see him as pouring kerosene on the perfectly legitimate rioting, and I think this points up the differences between the tribes, as you put it.

Quote:Mattis seems like a really reasonable guy, one who is patriotic, intelligent, and thoughtful.

Changed your mind, huh?

(06-04-2020 09:28 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(06-04-2020 06:13 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  Boil this post down and it’s a tribalistic “Liberals bad, conservatives good.” It’s pretty impressive how all the blame is shifted to liberals, as opposed to evenly spread, as it should be.

Yet it is your tribe that calls us 'deplorables". it is your tribe that riots and attacks us.

But the most intriguing this is the 50/50 split of blame you propose. where is the evidence for that?

I think in the case of the rioting and civil unrest across the country, we can rightfully put the lion's share of blame on the left.

On the matter of the Covid shutdown, I don't know where to put the blame. But I do know one tribe wants to re-open more than the other, and the other tribe wants to to extend the closings at any economic cost.

Quote:

This also ignores that liberals had been protesting the exact same issue of police brutality, but had been told that peacefully kneeling during the national anthem wasn’t appropriate. The grievance isn’t new, and the grievance has legitimacy about the structural issues that result in biased outcomes in policing.

Police brutality is rare these days. I remember when it wasn't. Take my word for it, things have changed. But in any case, it is not limited to white cops/black citizens. Why do you think it is? Because of the vague charge of "systemic" racism? How do you prove that? But in any case, why hasn't it been addressed and rooted out by the legions of black/Democratic police officials and city and county officials over the last 40-60 years? How can we blame that on the conservatives, when it is the liberals in power where the "brutality" and 'systemic racism" occurs?

OO, what are your circumstances that allow you to assess the state of police brutality these days? Specifically when it comes to the current experience of inner-city black males (which seems to be the main issue when these stories keep hitting the news cycle)?

(06-04-2020 10:17 AM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(06-04-2020 09:28 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(06-04-2020 06:13 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  Boil this post down and it’s a tribalistic “Liberals bad, conservatives good.” It’s pretty impressive how all the blame is shifted to liberals, as opposed to evenly spread, as it should be.

Yet it is your tribe that calls us 'deplorables". it is your tribe that riots and attacks us.

But the most intriguing this is the 50/50 split of blame you propose. where is the evidence for that?

I think in the case of the rioting and civil unrest across the country, we can rightfully put the lion's share of blame on the left.

On the matter of the Covid shutdown, I don't know where to put the blame. But I do know one tribe wants to re-open more than the other, and the other tribe wants to to extend the closings at any economic cost.

Quote:

This also ignores that liberals had been protesting the exact same issue of police brutality, but had been told that peacefully kneeling during the national anthem wasn’t appropriate. The grievance isn’t new, and the grievance has legitimacy about the structural issues that result in biased outcomes in policing.

Police brutality is rare these days. I remember when it wasn't. Take my word for it, things have changed. But in any case, it is not limited to white cops/black citizens. Why do you think it is? Because of the vague charge of "systemic" racism? How do you prove that? But in any case, why hasn't it been addressed and rooted out by the legions of black/Democratic police officials and city and county officials over the last 40-60 years? How can we blame that on the conservatives, when it is the liberals in power where the "brutality" and 'systemic racism" occurs?

OO, what are your circumstances that allow you to assess the state of police brutality these days? Specifically when it comes to the current experience of inner-city black males (which seems to be the main issue when these stories keep hitting the news cycle)?

Also, the argument that it used to be worse, isn't a strong one when there is still room to improve. Great, we went from an F to a C. Progress has been made, but progress can continue to be made.

(06-04-2020 08:26 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  Your final comment is why I, and others, identify this as a systemic issue.

Notice how I didn’t say it was a conservative/Republican issue? Or that it was a liberal/Democratic issue?

The fact that 'you' haven't said it doesn't mean that it isn't said quite regularly by the left... blaming the right... and I think you know it. When they can't blame the right in the local area, they blame the Federal 'system' (if it works for them)

I also think you're missing the other point...

If it's a systemic issue 'that can be solved', then why hasn't anyone fixed the system? Especially those who are in office, talking about the broken system, likely elected at least in part based on this argument... and now are in a position to do so?

Too often, we get this generic description of a 'systemic problem'... and that we need to 'vote this person out and that person in' to fix it, but the problem remains no matter how we vote. As some have mentioned, we can have a minority President, Governor, Mayor, Police Chief, Police Force (percentage, not total), DA and we STILL end up with police abuses.

My beliefs on this subject are pretty involved and detailed.... but they center around the ideas that people who suffer from chronic opression (like chronic depression)

and if anyone indignantly asks if I just compared racism to a 'disease', you are exhibiting what is often referred to as 'white privilege'. Chronic depression is a reality for many people, just like chronic (systemic) oppression. It's not a perfect example, but it's similar enough in that some people just don't understand why other people feel something so often, and they can't recognize most of the triggers... and although they certainly recognize the obvious drivers like perhaps a death, that simply isn't enough/the reality for many others.

But the challenge is... and the cause of 'systemic racism' seems to me to be that our system of law protects the accused, even when the accused is a state actor...

If you can't tell, I'm a big advocate for mental health and have some personal and professional experience here... and I therefore see a lot of similarities. I see systems that tell the chronically depressed to simply 'buck up'... and I see people suffering from anxiety attacks being treated differently from someone who isn't. It's not the fact that one is a diagnosed 'disease' and the other is not... that to me is relatively unimportant... neither was someone's choice, and both are people's realities.... and even lots of 'good' people, simply can't understand/appreciate/see what these people face every day.... and bullying them just discourages them from being 'good people'. I also see some mental health advocates (and maybe I'm one of them?) who act like those who 'rescue dogs' as if that makes them better people... when they're still bad dog owners.

(06-04-2020 10:17 AM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(06-04-2020 09:28 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(06-04-2020 06:13 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  Boil this post down and it’s a tribalistic “Liberals bad, conservatives good.” It’s pretty impressive how all the blame is shifted to liberals, as opposed to evenly spread, as it should be.

Yet it is your tribe that calls us 'deplorables". it is your tribe that riots and attacks us.

But the most intriguing this is the 50/50 split of blame you propose. where is the evidence for that?

I think in the case of the rioting and civil unrest across the country, we can rightfully put the lion's share of blame on the left.

On the matter of the Covid shutdown, I don't know where to put the blame. But I do know one tribe wants to re-open more than the other, and the other tribe wants to to extend the closings at any economic cost.

Quote:

This also ignores that liberals had been protesting the exact same issue of police brutality, but had been told that peacefully kneeling during the national anthem wasn’t appropriate. The grievance isn’t new, and the grievance has legitimacy about the structural issues that result in biased outcomes in policing.

Police brutality is rare these days. I remember when it wasn't. Take my word for it, things have changed. But in any case, it is not limited to white cops/black citizens. Why do you think it is? Because of the vague charge of "systemic" racism? How do you prove that? But in any case, why hasn't it been addressed and rooted out by the legions of black/Democratic police officials and city and county officials over the last 40-60 years? How can we blame that on the conservatives, when it is the liberals in power where the "brutality" and 'systemic racism" occurs?

OO, what are your circumstances that allow you to assess the state of police brutality these days? Specifically when it comes to the current experience of inner-city black males (which seems to be the main issue when these stories keep hitting the news cycle)?

I guess you are saying that if I am not an inner city black male, I cannot speak to this. I would then ask in return how you can. But I will do my best to respond to your question as if it was a real question.

We live in a post-Miranda world. I grew up pre-miranda, in a segregated society. We called it the 50's. I saw much of what was done to people then. When I was a teenager, I was pulled in on a minor possession charge. I saw a man being beaten by cops. White man, white cops. I took it as a sign I should be respectful.

I don't see how the police could carry on a reign of terror in these days. It is just not permitted anymore, even if they wanted to. Too many eyes, too many reporters, to many lawyers.

The incidents are bad, but they are rare. maybe once a month on average, in a nation of 350MM. Maybe millions of police/citizen interactions daily. One time my mother saw a herd of buffalo running down the street in front of our house. That did not make it the norm. I think these regrettable incidents like happened to George Floyd are rare, else we would have a daily report. Maybe you could tell me why you think they are common. We also see on the news reports of 6 year olds driving cars.

Also, I think a lot of it is perception rather than fact. Say police officer Joe White has been informed by his wife that she is leaving him for his best friend. He goes to work in a bad mood, and sets up a speed trap. First person he catches is me, bopping along at 60 in a 40. he asks for license and registration, is taciturn and barely civil to me. he gives me a ticket. I go on my way mad I got caught. The next driver is Joe Black, a black man. Officer White pulls him over for doing 60 in a 40. he gives him a ticket. he is taciturn and barely civil. Joe Black leaves, convinced he has, yet again, gotten a ticket for DWB. More oppression, in his mind, when in reality, none was there. Just an unfriendly cop, giving a well deserved ticket. I, a white,, don't see it as racial. Joe, a black, does.

Another thing is that the set up does not make logical sense. Why is the police the only municipal department that is racist? Don't code enforcement inspect black owned buildings? Doesn't Power and Light send out bills to everybody? But the legend is not just that the police are racist, but they are racist coast to coast, big cities and small, from East bum****, Va to West bum****, Wa., in towns run by conservatives, and in towns run by liberals. That narrative does not make logical sense to me. does it make sense to you?

I am also bothered by the evidence for this alleged racism. Usually, it rests on two items: White cop, black citizen. Other situations sometimes have bad outcomes, and they are ignored.

Growing up, I was used to seeing signs that said "colored in back" or "colored only" pr "whites only". I bet most of these rioters/protesters have never been turned away from a restaurant or motel due to their race. Times have changed.

Yeah, being poor sucks. Growing up in a 90%+ hispanic town, it was the poor who got the brunt of law enforcement. the rich mostly got away with it. But since the poor and the rich and the cops were all Hispanic, nobody tried to make a racist thing out of it.

(06-04-2020 10:17 AM)Rice93 Wrote:  OO, what are your circumstances that allow you to assess the state of police brutality these days? Specifically when it comes to the current experience of inner-city black males (which seems to be the main issue when these stories keep hitting the news cycle)?

Not OO, but do have a response. The data show that 235 black citizens and 370 white citizens were killed by police last year. Because of the relative sizes of the demographic groups, that is still a higher rate for blacks (1 in 200,000 versus 1 in 500,000 for whites), but neither of those rates support any inference of widespread killing of blacks by police. As for anecdotal instances of blacks being roughed up by police, that also happens to whites.

One factor, I believe, is that blacks see to be more inclined to resist than whites. Resistance will almost always increase the level of tension and escalate the situation.

This was brought home to me in an article by a black university professor at an urban campus. He was stopped while walking from his car park to his classroom by policemen who asserted that he resembled the description they had of a burglar in the area. He was detained, but released in time to make his class. What struck me was his statement that, while he was being detained, he determined that if they tried to get him into a police car to take him away, he would resist, because he believed that if he got into the car they would haul him somewhere and kill him. Now this is a well-educated, presumably intelligent, person. If one group cooperates and another resists, which one is more likely to escalate the situation?

I believe I read somewhere that George Floyd resisted being put int a police car. That situation surely escalated.

(06-04-2020 10:17 AM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(06-04-2020 09:28 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(06-04-2020 06:13 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  Boil this post down and it’s a tribalistic “Liberals bad, conservatives good.” It’s pretty impressive how all the blame is shifted to liberals, as opposed to evenly spread, as it should be.

Yet it is your tribe that calls us 'deplorables". it is your tribe that riots and attacks us.

But the most intriguing this is the 50/50 split of blame you propose. where is the evidence for that?

I think in the case of the rioting and civil unrest across the country, we can rightfully put the lion's share of blame on the left.

On the matter of the Covid shutdown, I don't know where to put the blame. But I do know one tribe wants to re-open more than the other, and the other tribe wants to to extend the closings at any economic cost.

Quote:

This also ignores that liberals had been protesting the exact same issue of police brutality, but had been told that peacefully kneeling during the national anthem wasn’t appropriate. The grievance isn’t new, and the grievance has legitimacy about the structural issues that result in biased outcomes in policing.

Police brutality is rare these days. I remember when it wasn't. Take my word for it, things have changed. But in any case, it is not limited to white cops/black citizens. Why do you think it is? Because of the vague charge of "systemic" racism? How do you prove that? But in any case, why hasn't it been addressed and rooted out by the legions of black/Democratic police officials and city and county officials over the last 40-60 years? How can we blame that on the conservatives, when it is the liberals in power where the "brutality" and 'systemic racism" occurs?

OO, what are your circumstances that allow you to assess the state of police brutality these days? Specifically when it comes to the current experience of inner-city black males (which seems to be the main issue when these stories keep hitting the news cycle)?

So the tactic in this post is to question OOs bona fides on opining on 'the current experience of inner city black males'.

Considering your unabashed and unqualified assertion of deep systemic issues on that very same topic, the natural qestion arises of what the hell are yours to do the same exact thing?

(06-04-2020 11:01 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(06-04-2020 10:17 AM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(06-04-2020 09:28 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(06-04-2020 06:13 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  Boil this post down and it’s a tribalistic “Liberals bad, conservatives good.” It’s pretty impressive how all the blame is shifted to liberals, as opposed to evenly spread, as it should be.

Yet it is your tribe that calls us 'deplorables". it is your tribe that riots and attacks us.

But the most intriguing this is the 50/50 split of blame you propose. where is the evidence for that?

I think in the case of the rioting and civil unrest across the country, we can rightfully put the lion's share of blame on the left.

On the matter of the Covid shutdown, I don't know where to put the blame. But I do know one tribe wants to re-open more than the other, and the other tribe wants to to extend the closings at any economic cost.

Quote:

This also ignores that liberals had been protesting the exact same issue of police brutality, but had been told that peacefully kneeling during the national anthem wasn’t appropriate. The grievance isn’t new, and the grievance has legitimacy about the structural issues that result in biased outcomes in policing.

Police brutality is rare these days. I remember when it wasn't. Take my word for it, things have changed. But in any case, it is not limited to white cops/black citizens. Why do you think it is? Because of the vague charge of "systemic" racism? How do you prove that? But in any case, why hasn't it been addressed and rooted out by the legions of black/Democratic police officials and city and county officials over the last 40-60 years? How can we blame that on the conservatives, when it is the liberals in power where the "brutality" and 'systemic racism" occurs?

OO, what are your circumstances that allow you to assess the state of police brutality these days? Specifically when it comes to the current experience of inner-city black males (which seems to be the main issue when these stories keep hitting the news cycle)?

I guess you are saying that if I am not an inner city black male, I cannot speak to this. I would then ask in return how you can. But I will do my best to respond to your question as if it was a real question.

I definitely can't. I have to rely on what I hear from the black community.

I appreciate your experience and that, in many ways, the treatment of minorities has improved since the 1950s. This doesn't mean that there are not significant issues that face POC in America. Police brutality being one of them.