(05-28-2020 11:06 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(05-28-2020 10:13 AM)tanqtonic Wrote:  

(05-28-2020 09:30 AM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(05-28-2020 09:04 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  Man, that gun control is really working

Glad I live in rural Texas, where most people have guns but rarely use them on each other.

You are surely aware of the issues in Chicago with tight Illinois gun laws and loose gun laws in close-by neighboring states. This has been discussed ad nauseum any time gun violence in Chicago is brought up so I'm going to assume that you're just trolling here.

I would surmise there are just as many guns in Houston as in Chicago -- probably more. So your 'pawning the gun violence' off on the ignorant neighbors who allow gun sales really doesnt even come close to an explanation.

According to the 2017 FBI statistics, the murder incidence of Houston was 239 in a population of 2.3 million --- a rate of 1.1 for each 10,000.

Chicago had 658 murders in a population of 2.7 million --- a rate of 2.4 for each 10,000.

It is as easy to legally obtain a handgun *in* the city limits of Houston as compared to one purchasing as a strawman in Indiana (which I assume is your boogeyman, and 170 miles from Chicago as well).

Yep, neighbors having looser gun control than Chicago's near ban *really* doesnt explain that massive disparity. Please feel free to continue with the 'blame the neighbors' canard there.

The persecution complex is so damn strong.


Also, what map are you looking at that has Chicago 170 miles from Indiana??? The Indiana border is so close to Chicago that Indiana advertises their lower cost of living on Chicago city buses. Downtown Chicago is less than 20 miles from Whiting, which is right on the Indiana side of the border. The nearest Cabella's is like 30 miles from Chicago.

I thought the same thing. Plenty of people live on the Indiana side and commute into the Chicago area for work. They are not making a 3.5 hour drive each way.

Tanq, I'm curious as to your opinion about the reasons for the murder rate of Chicago to be twice that of Houston. Do you think it involves different approaches to gun laws?

(05-28-2020 11:12 AM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(05-28-2020 11:06 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(05-28-2020 10:13 AM)tanqtonic Wrote:  

(05-28-2020 09:30 AM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(05-28-2020 09:04 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  Man, that gun control is really working

Glad I live in rural Texas, where most people have guns but rarely use them on each other.

You are surely aware of the issues in Chicago with tight Illinois gun laws and loose gun laws in close-by neighboring states. This has been discussed ad nauseum any time gun violence in Chicago is brought up so I'm going to assume that you're just trolling here.

I would surmise there are just as many guns in Houston as in Chicago -- probably more. So your 'pawning the gun violence' off on the ignorant neighbors who allow gun sales really doesnt even come close to an explanation.

According to the 2017 FBI statistics, the murder incidence of Houston was 239 in a population of 2.3 million --- a rate of 1.1 for each 10,000.

Chicago had 658 murders in a population of 2.7 million --- a rate of 2.4 for each 10,000.

It is as easy to legally obtain a handgun *in* the city limits of Houston as compared to one purchasing as a strawman in Indiana (which I assume is your boogeyman, and 170 miles from Chicago as well).

Yep, neighbors having looser gun control than Chicago's near ban *really* doesnt explain that massive disparity. Please feel free to continue with the 'blame the neighbors' canard there.

The persecution complex is so damn strong.


Also, what map are you looking at that has Chicago 170 miles from Indiana??? The Indiana border is so close to Chicago that Indiana advertises their lower cost of living on Chicago city buses. Downtown Chicago is less than 20 miles from Whiting, which is right on the Indiana side of the border. The nearest Cabella's is like 30 miles from Chicago.

I thought the same thing. Plenty of people live on the Indiana side and commute into the Chicago area for work. They are not making a 3.5 hour drive each way.

Tanq, I'm curious as to your opinion about the reasons for the murder rate of Chicago to be twice that of Houston. Do you think it involves different approaches to gun laws?

In terms of my thoughts on the topic... I think this passage from the Chicago Tribune makes sense:

“One of the ways Chicago is different is that our social conditions are not anything like those now in New York City and Los Angeles,” Jens Ludwig, director of the Crime Lab, told a City Club audience early this year. “We are not just the most segregated city in America, but the level of concentrated poverty we have in our neighborhoods is unlike anything in Los Angeles or New York. You would not find an Englewood or Garfield Park anywhere in Los Angeles and New York.”

The dynamics at play, the ones Chicagoans want to understand to end the bloodshed, are complex. Gang life is a substitute for hope in isolated neighborhoods. Every shooting invites a retaliatory attack. In a city of 2.7 million people, a relatively small number of criminals — perhaps 5,000 to 10,000 thugs and drug dealers — are driving a large share of the violence. “It’s the same individuals that continuously commit these crimes,” Chicago Police Department Superintendent Eddie Johnson said

https://www.chicagotribune.com/opinion/e...story.html

(05-28-2020 11:06 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(05-28-2020 10:13 AM)tanqtonic Wrote:  

(05-28-2020 09:30 AM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(05-28-2020 09:04 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  Man, that gun control is really working

Glad I live in rural Texas, where most people have guns but rarely use them on each other.

You are surely aware of the issues in Chicago with tight Illinois gun laws and loose gun laws in close-by neighboring states. This has been discussed ad nauseum any time gun violence in Chicago is brought up so I'm going to assume that you're just trolling here.

I would surmise there are just as many guns in Houston as in Chicago -- probably more. So your 'pawning the gun violence' off on the ignorant neighbors who allow gun sales really doesnt even come close to an explanation.

According to the 2017 FBI statistics, the murder incidence of Houston was 239 in a population of 2.3 million --- a rate of 1.1 for each 10,000.

Chicago had 658 murders in a population of 2.7 million --- a rate of 2.4 for each 10,000.

It is as easy to legally obtain a handgun *in* the city limits of Houston as compared to one purchasing as a strawman in Indiana (which I assume is your boogeyman, and 170 miles from Chicago as well).

Yep, neighbors having looser gun control than Chicago's near ban *really* doesnt explain that massive disparity. Please feel free to continue with the 'blame the neighbors' canard there.

The persecution complex is so damn strong.

Because I mad an assumption and stated it? Either 93 made the point about 'purchasing firearms elsewhere --- either to place blame, or he did it for pure ***** and giggles. Although I dont agree with 93 most of the time, I assume the former. Should I assume the latter?

Quote:Also, what map are you looking at that has Chicago 170 miles from Indiana??? The Indiana border is so close to Chicago that Indiana advertises their lower cost of living on Chicago city buses. Downtown Chicago is less than 20 miles from Whiting, which is right on the Indiana side of the border. The nearest Cabella's is like 30 miles from Chicago.

I googled 'how far is indiana from chicago' -- the answer it returned is below:

2 h 54 min (167.3 mi) via I-65 S

Looking at the map now, it appears google assumes that to be 'the middle of indiana' -- thanks for the correction.

heh.

(05-28-2020 11:12 AM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(05-28-2020 11:06 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  Also, what map are you looking at that has Chicago 170 miles from Indiana??? The Indiana border is so close to Chicago that Indiana advertises their lower cost of living on Chicago city buses. Downtown Chicago is less than 20 miles from Whiting, which is right on the Indiana side of the border. The nearest Cabella's is like 30 miles from Chicago.

I thought the same thing. Plenty of people live on the Indiana side and commute into the Chicago area for work. They are not making a 3.5 hour drive each way.

Tanq, I'm curious as to your opinion about the reasons for the murder rate of Chicago to be twice that of Houston. Do you think it involves different approaches to gun laws?

Not Tanq, but I started this thnig.

Why is the cost of living lower in Indiana, only 30 miles away? What are the murder rates in Indianapolis vs. Chicago, more of an apples to apples comparison. What is the
COL in Indianapolis vs. Chicago? I don't know, but I bet it is higher in Chicago in both stats.

I think the murder rate is Chicago is closely tied to gang activity, which the gun laws in either state have zero to do with. Just pointing out that all these background checks, permits, waiting periods, etc., that are the darlings of the left, are doing nothing to cut down on gun violence in Chicago. Unless you are lobbying for national laws - is that what you are wanting?

(05-28-2020 11:18 AM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(05-28-2020 11:12 AM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(05-28-2020 11:06 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(05-28-2020 10:13 AM)tanqtonic Wrote:  

(05-28-2020 09:30 AM)Rice93 Wrote:  You are surely aware of the issues in Chicago with tight Illinois gun laws and loose gun laws in close-by neighboring states. This has been discussed ad nauseum any time gun violence in Chicago is brought up so I'm going to assume that you're just trolling here.

I would surmise there are just as many guns in Houston as in Chicago -- probably more. So your 'pawning the gun violence' off on the ignorant neighbors who allow gun sales really doesnt even come close to an explanation.

According to the 2017 FBI statistics, the murder incidence of Houston was 239 in a population of 2.3 million --- a rate of 1.1 for each 10,000.

Chicago had 658 murders in a population of 2.7 million --- a rate of 2.4 for each 10,000.

It is as easy to legally obtain a handgun *in* the city limits of Houston as compared to one purchasing as a strawman in Indiana (which I assume is your boogeyman, and 170 miles from Chicago as well).

Yep, neighbors having looser gun control than Chicago's near ban *really* doesnt explain that massive disparity. Please feel free to continue with the 'blame the neighbors' canard there.

The persecution complex is so damn strong.


Also, what map are you looking at that has Chicago 170 miles from Indiana??? The Indiana border is so close to Chicago that Indiana advertises their lower cost of living on Chicago city buses. Downtown Chicago is less than 20 miles from Whiting, which is right on the Indiana side of the border. The nearest Cabella's is like 30 miles from Chicago.

I thought the same thing. Plenty of people live on the Indiana side and commute into the Chicago area for work. They are not making a 3.5 hour drive each way.

Tanq, I'm curious as to your opinion about the reasons for the murder rate of Chicago to be twice that of Houston. Do you think it involves different approaches to gun laws?

In terms of my thoughts on the topic... I think this passage from the Chicago Tribune makes sense:

“One of the ways Chicago is different is that our social conditions are not anything like those now in New York City and Los Angeles,” Jens Ludwig, director of the Crime Lab, told a City Club audience early this year. “We are not just the most segregated city in America, but the level of concentrated poverty we have in our neighborhoods is unlike anything in Los Angeles or New York. You would not find an Englewood or Garfield Park anywhere in Los Angeles and New York.”

The dynamics at play, the ones Chicagoans want to understand to end the bloodshed, are complex. Gang life is a substitute for hope in isolated neighborhoods. Every shooting invites a retaliatory attack. In a city of 2.7 million people, a relatively small number of criminals — perhaps 5,000 to 10,000 thugs and drug dealers — are driving a large share of the violence. “It’s the same individuals that continuously commit these crimes,” Chicago Police Department Superintendent Eddie Johnson said

https://www.chicagotribune.com/opinion/e...story.html

\
How did progressive Chicago become the most segregated city in America?

(05-28-2020 11:12 AM)Rice93 Wrote:  Tanq, I'm curious as to your opinion about the reasons for the murder rate of Chicago to be twice that of Houston. Do you think it involves different approaches to gun laws?

The difference in gun laws is that in Houston, even in the city limits, it is relatively easier to get a handgun that in Chicago. For your information, Chicago has effectively a near abn on the sales of firearms in the city --- partly legal in nature, partly the aftereffects of the decades long legal issues that were put into exile by SCOTUS in McDonald. Currently, there are no (as in zero, zilch, null, nada) gun stores in Chicago proper. IIRC the current batch of applicants to do so have run smack into the thicket of *extra* ordinances that Chi-town government swears up, down, and sideways are not intended to ban firearm sales.

Houston rules default to the Texas rules --- which default to the almost bare Federal mandated minimums on firearm transactions and prohibitions.

And the default Illinois rules *are* much stricter than Texas, and Chicago adds 'extra spice' to those rules locally.

If you want to champion that restrictive to the point of banning fireamr sales is a causation of that doubling -- feel free to do so. I cannot see that logic.

But your initial statement that the 'loose sales' of Indiana are causation of that doubling are simply not supported with the Houston example. So, when I hear that canard on 'blaming those Hoosiers', I find it rather ill-informed and somewhat contrary to the examples of loose sales restriction large cities.

So no, I dont think a near ban on guns causes a doubling in the murder rate. Nor do I think the 'loose laws' of the neighbor are the major boogeyman either, based on the numbers of large cities where loose sales are the framework.

(05-28-2020 11:09 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(05-28-2020 10:34 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(05-28-2020 09:30 AM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(05-28-2020 09:04 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  Man, that gun control is really working
Glad I live in rural Texas, where most people have guns but rarely use them on each other.

You are surely aware of the issues in Chicago with tight Illinois gun laws and loose gun laws in close-by neighboring states. This has been discussed ad nauseum any time gun violence in Chicago is brought up so I'm going to assume that you're just trolling here.

So, hypothetically the USA enacts strict gun control laws but Mexico doesn't (or is at least lax in enforcing them). How does your analogy apply?

You'd have a problem with people trying to smuggle guns in across the border, similar to drugs. The size of the problem would be the question, and if demand would be similar to what it is with drugs.

So what's the reason for Chicago to blame its problems on Indiana? Seems to me that if Indiana were the problem, then Indiana would be having even higher rates of gun crimes. The bottom line is that strict gun controls don't work and have never worked.

And don't give me UK or Australia for counter-examples. Both of them had extremely low rates of gun crime before their gun control laws. So low in UK that Bobbies were historically unarmed. Their rates have actually gone up slightly since they passed strict gun controls, and at least some Bobbies are now armed as a result. As for Australia, yes their rates went down in the 20-odd years since they passed the law--at exactly the same rate that they declined in the 20-odd years before the passed the law. In other words, the law appears to have had zero effect.

The bottom line is that the worldwide trend has been pretty clear. Places with low rates of gun crime before passing gun controls kept those low rates after passing such laws. Places with high rates of gun crime before passing gun control laws kept those high rates after passing such laws, or saw them increase. There is no instance of a cliff fall off as a result of passing gun control laws. There just isn't.

(05-28-2020 12:22 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(05-28-2020 11:09 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(05-28-2020 10:34 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(05-28-2020 09:30 AM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(05-28-2020 09:04 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  Man, that gun control is really working
Glad I live in rural Texas, where most people have guns but rarely use them on each other.

You are surely aware of the issues in Chicago with tight Illinois gun laws and loose gun laws in close-by neighboring states. This has been discussed ad nauseum any time gun violence in Chicago is brought up so I'm going to assume that you're just trolling here.

So, hypothetically the USA enacts strict gun control laws but Mexico doesn't (or is at least lax in enforcing them). How does your analogy apply?

You'd have a problem with people trying to smuggle guns in across the border, similar to drugs. The size of the problem would be the question, and if demand would be similar to what it is with drugs.

So what's the reason for Chicago to blame its problems on Indiana. Seems to me that if Indiana were the problem, then Indiana would be having even higher rates of gun crimes. The bottom line is that strict gun controls don't work and have never worked.

And don't give me UK or Australia for counter-examples. Both of them had extremely low rates of gun crime before their gun control laws. So low in UK that Bobbies were historically unarmed. Their rates have actually gone up slightly since they passed strict gun controls, and at least some Bobbies are now armed as a result. As for Australia, yes their rates went down in the 20-odd years since they passed the law--at exactly the same rate that they declined in the 20-odd years before the passed the law. In other words, the law appears to have had zero effect.

The bottom line is that the worldwide trend has been pretty clear. Places with low rates of gun crime before passing gun controls kept those low rates after passing such laws. Places with high rates of gun crime before passing gun control laws kept those high rates after passing such laws, or saw them increase. There is no instance of a cliff fall off as a result of passing gun control laws. There just isn't.

Gosh, it's almost as if violent criminals do what they do irrespective of whether their actions are illegal.

(05-28-2020 11:51 AM)tanqtonic Wrote:  

(05-28-2020 11:12 AM)Rice93 Wrote:  Tanq, I'm curious as to your opinion about the reasons for the murder rate of Chicago to be twice that of Houston. Do you think it involves different approaches to gun laws?

The difference in gun laws is that in Houston, even in the city limits, it is relatively easier to get a handgun that in Chicago. For your information, Chicago has effectively a near abn on the sales of firearms in the city --- partly legal in nature, partly the aftereffects of the decades long legal issues that were put into exile by SCOTUS in McDonald. Currently, there are no (as in zero, zilch, null, nada) gun stores in Chicago proper. IIRC the current batch of applicants to do so have run smack into the thicket of *extra* ordinances that Chi-town government swears up, down, and sideways are not intended to ban firearm sales.

Houston rules default to the Texas rules --- which default to the almost bare Federal mandated minimums on firearm transactions and prohibitions.

And the default Illinois rules *are* much stricter than Texas, and Chicago adds 'extra spice' to those rules locally.

If you want to champion that restrictive to the point of banning fireamr sales is a causation of that doubling -- feel free to do so. I cannot see that logic.

But your initial statement that the 'loose sales' of Indiana are causation of that doubling are simply not supported with the Houston example. So, when I hear that canard on 'blaming those Hoosiers', I find it rather ill-informed and somewhat contrary to the examples of loose sales restriction large cities.

So no, I dont think a near ban on guns causes a doubling in the murder rate. Nor do I think the 'loose laws' of the neighbor are the major boogeyman either, based on the numbers of large cities where loose sales are the framework.

Yeah... I don't want to do that (and at no point did I do that). I put my thoughts about the discrepancy between murder rates of Chicago and Houston a few posts above yours.

I was just responding to the original poster's inference of "see... look at Chicago... restrictive gun laws don't work!"

(05-28-2020 01:00 PM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(05-28-2020 11:51 AM)tanqtonic Wrote:  

(05-28-2020 11:12 AM)Rice93 Wrote:  Tanq, I'm curious as to your opinion about the reasons for the murder rate of Chicago to be twice that of Houston. Do you think it involves different approaches to gun laws?

The difference in gun laws is that in Houston, even in the city limits, it is relatively easier to get a handgun that in Chicago. For your information, Chicago has effectively a near abn on the sales of firearms in the city --- partly legal in nature, partly the aftereffects of the decades long legal issues that were put into exile by SCOTUS in McDonald. Currently, there are no (as in zero, zilch, null, nada) gun stores in Chicago proper. IIRC the current batch of applicants to do so have run smack into the thicket of *extra* ordinances that Chi-town government swears up, down, and sideways are not intended to ban firearm sales.

Houston rules default to the Texas rules --- which default to the almost bare Federal mandated minimums on firearm transactions and prohibitions.

And the default Illinois rules *are* much stricter than Texas, and Chicago adds 'extra spice' to those rules locally.

If you want to champion that restrictive to the point of banning fireamr sales is a causation of that doubling -- feel free to do so. I cannot see that logic.

But your initial statement that the 'loose sales' of Indiana are causation of that doubling are simply not supported with the Houston example. So, when I hear that canard on 'blaming those Hoosiers', I find it rather ill-informed and somewhat contrary to the examples of loose sales restriction large cities.

So no, I dont think a near ban on guns causes a doubling in the murder rate. Nor do I think the 'loose laws' of the neighbor are the major boogeyman either, based on the numbers of large cities where loose sales are the framework.

Yeah... I don't want to do that (and at no point did I do that). I put my thoughts about the discrepancy between murder rates of Chicago and Houston a few posts above yours.

I was just responding to the original poster's inference of "see... look at Chicago... restrictive gun laws don't work!"

So you are saying they DO work?

(05-28-2020 01:17 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(05-28-2020 01:00 PM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(05-28-2020 11:51 AM)tanqtonic Wrote:  

(05-28-2020 11:12 AM)Rice93 Wrote:  Tanq, I'm curious as to your opinion about the reasons for the murder rate of Chicago to be twice that of Houston. Do you think it involves different approaches to gun laws?

The difference in gun laws is that in Houston, even in the city limits, it is relatively easier to get a handgun that in Chicago. For your information, Chicago has effectively a near abn on the sales of firearms in the city --- partly legal in nature, partly the aftereffects of the decades long legal issues that were put into exile by SCOTUS in McDonald. Currently, there are no (as in zero, zilch, null, nada) gun stores in Chicago proper. IIRC the current batch of applicants to do so have run smack into the thicket of *extra* ordinances that Chi-town government swears up, down, and sideways are not intended to ban firearm sales.

Houston rules default to the Texas rules --- which default to the almost bare Federal mandated minimums on firearm transactions and prohibitions.

And the default Illinois rules *are* much stricter than Texas, and Chicago adds 'extra spice' to those rules locally.

If you want to champion that restrictive to the point of banning fireamr sales is a causation of that doubling -- feel free to do so. I cannot see that logic.

But your initial statement that the 'loose sales' of Indiana are causation of that doubling are simply not supported with the Houston example. So, when I hear that canard on 'blaming those Hoosiers', I find it rather ill-informed and somewhat contrary to the examples of loose sales restriction large cities.

So no, I dont think a near ban on guns causes a doubling in the murder rate. Nor do I think the 'loose laws' of the neighbor are the major boogeyman either, based on the numbers of large cities where loose sales are the framework.

Yeah... I don't want to do that (and at no point did I do that). I put my thoughts about the discrepancy between murder rates of Chicago and Houston a few posts above yours.

I was just responding to the original poster's inference of "see... look at Chicago... restrictive gun laws don't work!"

So you are saying they DO work?

I think what he is saying is that 'they would work, but ignorant evil Indiana isnt letting us show that.' Notwithstanding the statistics on large cities with loose laws, that is.

If that is *not* what he is attempting to plead, then I dont have a clue why he would bring up the gun laws of other states.

(05-28-2020 02:38 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:  

(05-28-2020 01:17 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(05-28-2020 01:00 PM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(05-28-2020 11:51 AM)tanqtonic Wrote:  

(05-28-2020 11:12 AM)Rice93 Wrote:  Tanq, I'm curious as to your opinion about the reasons for the murder rate of Chicago to be twice that of Houston. Do you think it involves different approaches to gun laws?

The difference in gun laws is that in Houston, even in the city limits, it is relatively easier to get a handgun that in Chicago. For your information, Chicago has effectively a near abn on the sales of firearms in the city --- partly legal in nature, partly the aftereffects of the decades long legal issues that were put into exile by SCOTUS in McDonald. Currently, there are no (as in zero, zilch, null, nada) gun stores in Chicago proper. IIRC the current batch of applicants to do so have run smack into the thicket of *extra* ordinances that Chi-town government swears up, down, and sideways are not intended to ban firearm sales.

Houston rules default to the Texas rules --- which default to the almost bare Federal mandated minimums on firearm transactions and prohibitions.

And the default Illinois rules *are* much stricter than Texas, and Chicago adds 'extra spice' to those rules locally.

If you want to champion that restrictive to the point of banning fireamr sales is a causation of that doubling -- feel free to do so. I cannot see that logic.

But your initial statement that the 'loose sales' of Indiana are causation of that doubling are simply not supported with the Houston example. So, when I hear that canard on 'blaming those Hoosiers', I find it rather ill-informed and somewhat contrary to the examples of loose sales restriction large cities.

So no, I dont think a near ban on guns causes a doubling in the murder rate. Nor do I think the 'loose laws' of the neighbor are the major boogeyman either, based on the numbers of large cities where loose sales are the framework.

Yeah... I don't want to do that (and at no point did I do that). I put my thoughts about the discrepancy between murder rates of Chicago and Houston a few posts above yours.

I was just responding to the original poster's inference of "see... look at Chicago... restrictive gun laws don't work!"

So you are saying they DO work?

I think what he is saying is that 'they would work, but ignorant evil Indiana isnt letting us show that.' Notwithstanding the statistics on large cities with loose laws, that is.

If that is *not* what he is attempting to plead, then I dont have a clue why he would bring up the gun laws of other states.

You guys are trying to one-up each other when it comes to putting words in my mouth.

What I was actually saying is that (Chicago has a high murder rate) = (strict gun control laws don't work) is a really dumb argument. Like Jesse Watters level dumb. I don't think that OO is dumb (I think he is very smart) and therefore my assumption was that OO was trolling with his original post.

(05-28-2020 02:53 PM)Rice93 Wrote:  What I was actually saying is that (Chicago has a high murder rate) = (strict gun control laws don't work) is a really dumb argument. Like Jesse Watters level dumb. I don't think that OO is dumb (I think he is very smart) and therefore my assumption was that OO was trolling with his original post.

I think it's more like (Chicago has a high murder rate) =/= (strict gun control laws do work).

And you could replace Chicago with any number of places.

Now the interesting argument is (UK has a low murder rate) =/= (strict gun controls laws do work). Why? Because UK had low murder rates BEFORE it had strict gun control laws. Same for Australia. In the two places the the left likes most to cite as evidence that gun control laws work, the empirical data says no, they really don't have any material effect.

(05-28-2020 02:38 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:  

(05-28-2020 01:17 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(05-28-2020 01:00 PM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(05-28-2020 11:51 AM)tanqtonic Wrote:  

(05-28-2020 11:12 AM)Rice93 Wrote:  Tanq, I'm curious as to your opinion about the reasons for the murder rate of Chicago to be twice that of Houston. Do you think it involves different approaches to gun laws?

The difference in gun laws is that in Houston, even in the city limits, it is relatively easier to get a handgun that in Chicago. For your information, Chicago has effectively a near abn on the sales of firearms in the city --- partly legal in nature, partly the aftereffects of the decades long legal issues that were put into exile by SCOTUS in McDonald. Currently, there are no (as in zero, zilch, null, nada) gun stores in Chicago proper. IIRC the current batch of applicants to do so have run smack into the thicket of *extra* ordinances that Chi-town government swears up, down, and sideways are not intended to ban firearm sales.

Houston rules default to the Texas rules --- which default to the almost bare Federal mandated minimums on firearm transactions and prohibitions.

And the default Illinois rules *are* much stricter than Texas, and Chicago adds 'extra spice' to those rules locally.

If you want to champion that restrictive to the point of banning fireamr sales is a causation of that doubling -- feel free to do so. I cannot see that logic.

But your initial statement that the 'loose sales' of Indiana are causation of that doubling are simply not supported with the Houston example. So, when I hear that canard on 'blaming those Hoosiers', I find it rather ill-informed and somewhat contrary to the examples of loose sales restriction large cities.

So no, I dont think a near ban on guns causes a doubling in the murder rate. Nor do I think the 'loose laws' of the neighbor are the major boogeyman either, based on the numbers of large cities where loose sales are the framework.

Yeah... I don't want to do that (and at no point did I do that). I put my thoughts about the discrepancy between murder rates of Chicago and Houston a few posts above yours.

I was just responding to the original poster's inference of "see... look at Chicago... restrictive gun laws don't work!"

So you are saying they DO work?

I think what he is saying is that 'they would work, but ignorant evil Indiana isnt letting us show that.' Notwithstanding the statistics on large cities with loose laws, that is.

If that is *not* what he is attempting to plead, then I dont have a clue why he would bring up the gun laws of other states.

Again, so triggered.

(05-28-2020 03:43 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(05-28-2020 02:38 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:  

(05-28-2020 01:17 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(05-28-2020 01:00 PM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(05-28-2020 11:51 AM)tanqtonic Wrote:  The difference in gun laws is that in Houston, even in the city limits, it is relatively easier to get a handgun that in Chicago. For your information, Chicago has effectively a near abn on the sales of firearms in the city --- partly legal in nature, partly the aftereffects of the decades long legal issues that were put into exile by SCOTUS in McDonald. Currently, there are no (as in zero, zilch, null, nada) gun stores in Chicago proper. IIRC the current batch of applicants to do so have run smack into the thicket of *extra* ordinances that Chi-town government swears up, down, and sideways are not intended to ban firearm sales.

Houston rules default to the Texas rules --- which default to the almost bare Federal mandated minimums on firearm transactions and prohibitions.

And the default Illinois rules *are* much stricter than Texas, and Chicago adds 'extra spice' to those rules locally.

If you want to champion that restrictive to the point of banning fireamr sales is a causation of that doubling -- feel free to do so. I cannot see that logic.

But your initial statement that the 'loose sales' of Indiana are causation of that doubling are simply not supported with the Houston example. So, when I hear that canard on 'blaming those Hoosiers', I find it rather ill-informed and somewhat contrary to the examples of loose sales restriction large cities.

So no, I dont think a near ban on guns causes a doubling in the murder rate. Nor do I think the 'loose laws' of the neighbor are the major boogeyman either, based on the numbers of large cities where loose sales are the framework.

Yeah... I don't want to do that (and at no point did I do that). I put my thoughts about the discrepancy between murder rates of Chicago and Houston a few posts above yours.

I was just responding to the original poster's inference of "see... look at Chicago... restrictive gun laws don't work!"

So you are saying they DO work?

I think what he is saying is that 'they would work, but ignorant evil Indiana isnt letting us show that.' Notwithstanding the statistics on large cities with loose laws, that is.

If that is *not* what he is attempting to plead, then I dont have a clue why he would bring up the gun laws of other states.

Again, so triggered.

That is cute coming from the guy who cannot be bothered to put the term 'could be interpreted as' in front of the blanket indictment and comment of 'racist statements' in the discussion about Trump comments. Bravo!

(05-28-2020 02:53 PM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(05-28-2020 02:38 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:  

(05-28-2020 01:17 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(05-28-2020 01:00 PM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(05-28-2020 11:51 AM)tanqtonic Wrote:  The difference in gun laws is that in Houston, even in the city limits, it is relatively easier to get a handgun that in Chicago. For your information, Chicago has effectively a near abn on the sales of firearms in the city --- partly legal in nature, partly the aftereffects of the decades long legal issues that were put into exile by SCOTUS in McDonald. Currently, there are no (as in zero, zilch, null, nada) gun stores in Chicago proper. IIRC the current batch of applicants to do so have run smack into the thicket of *extra* ordinances that Chi-town government swears up, down, and sideways are not intended to ban firearm sales.

Houston rules default to the Texas rules --- which default to the almost bare Federal mandated minimums on firearm transactions and prohibitions.

And the default Illinois rules *are* much stricter than Texas, and Chicago adds 'extra spice' to those rules locally.

If you want to champion that restrictive to the point of banning fireamr sales is a causation of that doubling -- feel free to do so. I cannot see that logic.

But your initial statement that the 'loose sales' of Indiana are causation of that doubling are simply not supported with the Houston example. So, when I hear that canard on 'blaming those Hoosiers', I find it rather ill-informed and somewhat contrary to the examples of loose sales restriction large cities.

So no, I dont think a near ban on guns causes a doubling in the murder rate. Nor do I think the 'loose laws' of the neighbor are the major boogeyman either, based on the numbers of large cities where loose sales are the framework.

Yeah... I don't want to do that (and at no point did I do that). I put my thoughts about the discrepancy between murder rates of Chicago and Houston a few posts above yours.

I was just responding to the original poster's inference of "see... look at Chicago... restrictive gun laws don't work!"

So you are saying they DO work?

I think what he is saying is that 'they would work, but ignorant evil Indiana isnt letting us show that.' Notwithstanding the statistics on large cities with loose laws, that is.

If that is *not* what he is attempting to plead, then I dont have a clue why he would bring up the gun laws of other states.

You guys are trying to one-up each other when it comes to putting words in my mouth.

What I was actually saying is that (Chicago has a high murder rate) = (strict gun control laws don't work) is a really dumb argument. Like Jesse Watters level dumb. I don't think that OO is dumb (I think he is very smart) and therefore my assumption was that OO was trolling with his original post.

don't want to put words in your mouth, but...

are you saying I am a troll?

Well, if you say so, it must be true.

here's one I learned from Lad:

Truth is, I get tired that every time there is a shooting, the left jumps up with the solution - more of the same!!! Restrictions, that is. Tougher checks, longer waiting periods, etc, etc, etc.

Like I say, I live in an area with very high gun ownership, yet very few shootings. So if the availability of guns was the problem....

(05-28-2020 02:53 PM)Rice93 Wrote:  I don't think that OO is dumb (I think he is very smart)

All of us Rice grads can be assumed to be smart, but compared to other Rice grads I don't think I am.

(05-28-2020 05:15 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(05-28-2020 02:53 PM)Rice93 Wrote:  I don't think that OO is dumb (I think he is very smart)

All of us Rice grads can be assumed to be smart, but compared to other Rice grads I don't think I am.

(05-28-2020 11:39 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  Why is the cost of living lower in Indiana, only 30 miles away? What are the murder rates in Indianapolis vs. Chicago, more of an apples to apples comparison. What is the
COL in Indianapolis vs. Chicago? I don't know, but I bet it is higher in Chicago in both stats.

Really would not mind somebody answering my questions for once.

I wonder why Chicago is the poster city for gun violence in the face of gun control - more so than even NYC or LA, two other bastions of liberal correctness.

If Indiana gun laws are to blame, then it would follow that Indianapolis would be as bad or worse.

As for the COL, that is usually a factor of taxes and regulation - two of the Pillars of Progressiveness.

(05-28-2020 11:42 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  How did progressive Chicago become the most segregated city in America?

Another unaddressed question.