(12-04-2019 12:47 PM)HyperDuke Wrote:  Almost universally, these are the biggest sports fans in HS & college. I get your point, but you should have gone with member of the International Thespian Society if you wanted to be more accurate.

I will concede the point but holy hell was my HS band different from what you're describing. Not only did most members have no interest in football but a large portion were openly antagonistic towards the team for having to perform at all rather than focus on competitions.

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(12-04-2019 12:52 PM)zablenoise Wrote:  

(12-04-2019 12:47 PM)HyperDuke Wrote:  Almost universally, these are the biggest sports fans in HS & college. I get your point, but you should have gone with member of the International Thespian Society if you wanted to be more accurate.

I will concede the point but holy hell was my HS band different from what you're describing. Not only did most members have no interest in football but a large portion were openly antagonistic towards the team for having to perform at all rather than focus on competitions.

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Hyper is a world-renowned musician so you may've hit a nerve. Just play the Titanic instrumental and he'll settle down.

Oboe specialist...I have proof.

https://youtu.be/tWxOCC3yPn8

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(12-04-2019 12:52 PM)zablenoise Wrote:  

(12-04-2019 12:47 PM)HyperDuke Wrote:  Almost universally, these are the biggest sports fans in HS & college. I get your point, but you should have gone with member of the International Thespian Society if you wanted to be more accurate.

I will concede the point but holy hell was my HS band different from what you're describing. Not only did most members have no interest in football but a large portion were openly antagonistic towards the team for having to perform at all rather than focus on competitions.

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was the football team antagonistic toward the band? Mutually beneficial relationships are best for all and the football team is not magically entitled to support for being the football team.

Anyway, I think W&M has a lot of former HS varsity athletes in the student body, an active club sports scene, and an active intramural scene. And I generally think the students are supportive of their friends' extracurricular efforts, athletic or otherwise.

The students will support a quality product on the field. Which there has not been in years.

Bonus thought: Participation in football is decreasing. I'm not sure football will be the marquee college sport in 30 years. I think the NFL is going to be taking a big hit also.

(12-04-2019 12:52 PM)zablenoise Wrote:  

(12-04-2019 12:47 PM)HyperDuke Wrote:  Almost universally, these are the biggest sports fans in HS & college. I get your point, but you should have gone with member of the International Thespian Society if you wanted to be more accurate.

I will concede the point but holy hell was my HS band different from what you're describing. Not only did most members have no interest in football but a large portion were openly antagonistic towards the team for having to perform at all rather than focus on competitions.

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Out of curiosity, where did you attend HS?

(12-04-2019 06:25 PM)HyperDuke Wrote:  

(12-04-2019 12:52 PM)zablenoise Wrote:  

(12-04-2019 12:47 PM)HyperDuke Wrote:  Almost universally, these are the biggest sports fans in HS & college. I get your point, but you should have gone with member of the International Thespian Society if you wanted to be more accurate.

I will concede the point but holy hell was my HS band different from what you're describing. Not only did most members have no interest in football but a large portion were openly antagonistic towards the team for having to perform at all rather than focus on competitions.

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Out of curiosity, where did you attend HS?

Fairfax County

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We are acting scandalized by this article.

I can’t be the only person on this board who remembers 1974.

(12-04-2019 07:14 PM)tribeinexile Wrote:  We are acting scandalized by this article.

I can’t be the only person on this board who remembers 1974.

What happened in 1974?

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(12-04-2019 07:14 PM)tribeinexile Wrote:  We are acting scandalized by this article.

I can’t be the only person on this board who remembers 1974.

I don't remember much. I was 12 months old.

There was a major push to de-emphasize football led by the student body President (Sharon Pandak).

The issue went all the way up to the BOV. They decided instead to increase the commitment to football (and the student fee). The decision was made right before the UR game which we proceeded to win 54-12.

I can still remember the de-emphasize Pandak signs. (Yates 1 Center was not a hotbed of progressive thinking that year.)

Two points:

1) To be upset that a Flat Hat sports editor or any other student wants to de-emphasize or eliminate is to ignore the history of the College.
2) If I don't get some others on this board recounting their memories of 1974 then I'm declaring myself the old man of the board.

(12-04-2019 08:18 PM)tribeinexile Wrote:  There was a major push to de-emphasize football led by the student body President (Sharon Pandak).

The issue went all the way up to the BOV. They decided instead to increase the commitment to football (and the student fee). The decision was made right before the UR game which we proceeded to win 54-12.

I can still remember the de-emphasize Pandak signs. (Yates 1 Center was not a hotbed of progressive thinking that year.)

Two points:

1) To be upset that a Flat Hat sports editor or any other student wants to de-emphasize or eliminate is to ignore the history of the College.
2) If I don't get some others on this board recounting their memories of 1974 then I'm declaring myself the old man of the board.

Also, as I remember, Pandak pushed the theory that dropping football would "elevate" W&M to be another Georgetown. Thankfully that didn't happen - and actually Georgetown later added football.

Literally the only thing that Mr. Futbol is right about is that we should have a men’s lacrosse team YESTERDAY! Other than that, he is frankly clueless. Pretty sure we didn’t build the Laycock Center and the new stadium to shut down football. Maybe we should admit more students that go to games/drink at the Dellys/frats afterwards instead of ones that never leave Swem. Bottom line...if the team starts winning, the students will start showing up. Everybody loves a winner!

(12-04-2019 08:25 PM)Sitting bull Wrote:  

(12-04-2019 08:18 PM)tribeinexile Wrote:  There was a major push to de-emphasize football led by the student body President (Sharon Pandak).

The issue went all the way up to the BOV. They decided instead to increase the commitment to football (and the student fee). The decision was made right before the UR game which we proceeded to win 54-12.

I can still remember the de-emphasize Pandak signs. (Yates 1 Center was not a hotbed of progressive thinking that year.)

Two points:

1) To be upset that a Flat Hat sports editor or any other student wants to de-emphasize or eliminate is to ignore the history of the College.
2) If I don't get some others on this board recounting their memories of 1974 then I'm declaring myself the old man of the board.

Also, as I remember, Pandak pushed the theory that dropping football would "elevate" W&M to be another Georgetown. Thankfully that didn't happen - and actually Georgetown later added football.

Seriously. Look at any list of top universities in the US and the overwhelming majority (9 or so out of ten) of them field football programs...most of them FBS or FCS programs. Bring on lacrosse though!! Love me some toxic masculinity.

Going to repost my comment from the Sports Blog link to the article - apologies for not realizing that it was already being discussed on this thread. Anyways...

I won't say I agree with every part of this article - I thought parts of it had an inappropriately flippant tone (though I appreciate the support of the players themselves), and there's a key argument that the author missed (more on that below), but I agree with the general premise 100%. William & Mary should not have a football team. I'm not saying that President Rowe should wake up tomorrow and immediately cancel next season or the season after that, but I fully support a gradual wind-down of the program.

The Flat Hat's sports editor laid out a lot of the same points I would - first, I truly believe the money is better spent on basketball (wanna make the Big Dance?) and other sports (possibly including expansion in to men's lacrosse, women's softball, crew, etc.) second, W&M (and all of the FCS, and probably some FBS schools) don't have a real competitive future in football as the gap between the Alabamas & the rest continues to widen. But I'm actually a little disappointed that the Flat Hat missed what I think is the biggest argument against football - CTE.

CTE causes lasting harm to football players, and the evidence indicating just how widespread and damaging it is grows higher by the year. How any university, especially one that prizes education so much like W&M does, can risk the wellbeing of dozens of its students brains annually is, in my opinion, a shameful hypocrisy. Monday through Friday the College works to develop those young minds, and then football comes on Saturday and literally bashes it out. What is the point of a scholarship if you risk forgetting what you learned (not to mention severe mental illness) within a few decades of graduating?

So yes, as a devout Tribe fan who played in the pep band, attended every football game and a ton of other athletic events, hasn't missed a homecoming since graduating (6 for 6!), contributes to the Athletic Dept. every year, and so on - I think we need to eventually wind down the football program.

(12-04-2019 07:14 PM)tribeinexile Wrote:  We are acting scandalized by this article.

I can’t be the only person on this board who remembers 1974.

I remember 1974, but as I wasn't a student then I'm not aware of Ms. Pandak's role. I recall a number of the liberal arts faculty pushing the idea, though.

(12-04-2019 07:14 PM)tribeinexile Wrote:  I can’t be the only person on this board who remembers 1974.

(12-04-2019 08:18 PM)tribeinexile Wrote:  .....
2) If I don't get some others on this board recounting their memories of 1974 then I'm declaring myself the old man of the board.

I got there in 1975. I do remember, though, a bunch of protests in 1979 where some students sought to de-emphasize football. The discussion was really about whether the college would provide the resources to keep W&M at the 1-A level (as an independent) or lower the commitment and play at the 1-AA level (also as an independent). I think the College finally went 1-AA in 1982 or so.

(12-04-2019 10:26 PM)TheBigBass Wrote:  Going to repost my comment from the Sports Blog link to the article - apologies for not realizing that it was already being discussed on this thread. Anyways...

I won't say I agree with every part of this article - I thought parts of it had an inappropriately flippant tone (though I appreciate the support of the players themselves), and there's a key argument that the author missed (more on that below), but I agree with the general premise 100%. William & Mary should not have a football team. I'm not saying that President Rowe should wake up tomorrow and immediately cancel next season or the season after that, but I fully support a gradual wind-down of the program.

The Flat Hat's sports editor laid out a lot of the same points I would - first, I truly believe the money is better spent on basketball (wanna make the Big Dance?) and other sports (possibly including expansion in to men's lacrosse, women's softball, crew, etc.) second, W&M (and all of the FCS, and probably some FBS schools) don't have a real competitive future in football as the gap between the Alabamas & the rest continues to widen. But I'm actually a little disappointed that the Flat Hat missed what I think is the biggest argument against football - CTE.

CTE causes lasting harm to football players, and the evidence indicating just how widespread and damaging it is grows higher by the year. How any university, especially one that prizes education so much like W&M does, can risk the wellbeing of dozens of its students brains annually is, in my opinion, a shameful hypocrisy. Monday through Friday the College works to develop those young minds, and then football comes on Saturday and literally bashes it out. What is the point of a scholarship if you risk forgetting what you learned (not to mention severe mental illness) within a few decades of graduating?

So yes, as a devout Tribe fan who played in the pep band, attended every football game and a ton of other athletic events, hasn't missed a homecoming since graduating (6 for 6!), contributes to the Athletic Dept. every year, and so on - I think we need to eventually wind down the football program.

I do agree that CTE will be the death knell of football at all levels. I give it 20 years (max) at levels below FBS. It might take another 10 after that to finally kill FBS and Pro Football, simply because of the enormous profits involved. It won't be until the payouts from thousands of lawsuits exceeds the profits that it will finally go the way of other dangerous sports like jousting or alligator wrestling.

(12-04-2019 10:26 PM)TheBigBass Wrote:  Going to repost my comment from the Sports Blog link to the article - apologies for not realizing that it was already being discussed on this thread. Anyways...

I won't say I agree with every part of this article - I thought parts of it had an inappropriately flippant tone (though I appreciate the support of the players themselves), and there's a key argument that the author missed (more on that below), but I agree with the general premise 100%. William & Mary should not have a football team. I'm not saying that President Rowe should wake up tomorrow and immediately cancel next season or the season after that, but I fully support a gradual wind-down of the program.

The Flat Hat's sports editor laid out a lot of the same points I would - first, I truly believe the money is better spent on basketball (wanna make the Big Dance?) and other sports (possibly including expansion in to men's lacrosse, women's softball, crew, etc.) second, W&M (and all of the FCS, and probably some FBS schools) don't have a real competitive future in football as the gap between the Alabamas & the rest continues to widen. But I'm actually a little disappointed that the Flat Hat missed what I think is the biggest argument against football - CTE.

CTE causes lasting harm to football players, and the evidence indicating just how widespread and damaging it is grows higher by the year. How any university, especially one that prizes education so much like W&M does, can risk the wellbeing of dozens of its students brains annually is, in my opinion, a shameful hypocrisy. Monday through Friday the College works to develop those young minds, and then football comes on Saturday and literally bashes it out. What is the point of a scholarship if you risk forgetting what you learned (not to mention severe mental illness) within a few decades of graduating?

So yes, as a devout Tribe fan who played in the pep band, attended every football game and a ton of other athletic events, hasn't missed a homecoming since graduating (6 for 6!), contributes to the Athletic Dept. every year, and so on - I think we need to eventually wind down the football program.

The research on CTE is alarming, but it is far too early to make that assessment. We dont know if modern helmets and other preventative measures will decrease the risk significantly. Further, many other sports' athletes also have been shown to exhibit significant concussion rates and therefore have the potential for CTE, notably hockey, soccer and yes, even basketball. Im sure lacrosse is also in there. The old "hard-hitting" rock-em-sock-em days of football are over, but there are many potential ways to improve the sport. With the amount of $$$ at stake, youd better believe they are working hard to do it. Lastly, why should W&M take the lead on this? When the IVY's, Stanford, Duke, Vandy etc all drop football for this reason, then yes, I foresee us following. We dont have to be the first.

Some valid points have been brought up, but the reality is we are more likely to increase our spending levels than drop football. There is too much of a rich history established over our 127 years of sponsoring football. I'd argue that if a W&M AD suggested dropping football here, they would be asked to resign soon after. Conversely, I'd say a big reason Huge was hired was her desire to elevate the football profile. How she goes about it and her results are debatable. I don't think her pro-football stance is though.
Only way football goes away is if their is some sort of NCAA mandate. Do we really see that on the horizon? I'm sure numbers can be thrown back at me, but is there a more popular US sport if you combine the viewership of college and pro football? It is a big business. I think high priced lawyers can bob and weave their way through the legal challenges brought against them. I get that these aren't college supported sports, but If sports like boxing and MMA where blows to the head are encouraged can continue to exist, there is zero chance that football is going anywhere in our lifetime. Too much money, too many lawyers. As long as football at the various levels can show that they are doing everything they can to protect the athletes, I think they survive. Negligent behavior by trainers or coaches is one thing, but litigating potential risk is a different animal.

(12-04-2019 06:28 PM)zablenoise Wrote:  

(12-04-2019 06:25 PM)HyperDuke Wrote:  

(12-04-2019 12:52 PM)zablenoise Wrote:  

(12-04-2019 12:47 PM)HyperDuke Wrote:  Almost universally, these are the biggest sports fans in HS & college. I get your point, but you should have gone with member of the International Thespian Society if you wanted to be more accurate.

I will concede the point but holy hell was my HS band different from what you're describing. Not only did most members have no interest in football but a large portion were openly antagonistic towards the team for having to perform at all rather than focus on competitions.

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Out of curiosity, where did you attend HS?

Fairfax County

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Haha well that narrows it down to like 30 schools.

Bottom line to this is that football continues and will continue at W&M.