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georgewebb Offline
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Post: #8761
RE: Trump Administration
(08-23-2019 06:46 PM)Fort Bend Owl Wrote:  The U.S. should be leading the fight to try to squash the destruction of the rainforest.

But I thought that imposing American values on other countries was racist/imperialist/sexist/other forms of bad. Is it not?

In any case, it would seem more logical, more legal, and more effective for rain forest countries to lead that particular fight.
08-24-2019 10:18 AM
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Owl 69/70/75 Offline
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Post: #8762
RE: Trump Administration
(08-24-2019 09:39 AM)ausowl Wrote:  
(08-23-2019 10:14 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(08-23-2019 06:46 PM)Fort Bend Owl Wrote:  I don't remember your drop-dead issues. But as you know, my biggest issue is climate change. It stuns me that no one is talking about the fires in the Amazon. The Amazon produces 20 percent of our planet's oxygen. Have we had one single comment from Trump on the fires? The U.S. should be leading the fight to try to squash the destruction of the rainforest.
I'm reading now that the vast majority of the fires are simply farmers burning off already cleared fields. The Amazon doesn't get a winter, so fields are burned off to kill bugs and pests. I've also seen statistics that show the rate of deforestation has risen slightly in the last few years, but is still well short of where it was a few decades ago.
I've also read something to the effect that this is a Brazilian/Chinese plot to increase their soybean production to replace the beans from the US. Good luck with that one. The economics of Amazon farming don't really support that--poor soil, poor transportation infrastructure, and no winter to kill off bugs makes the Amazon one of the most expensive places in the world to farm.
My cattle raising relatives think it's for grazing land. Variation on the soybean conspiracy theory.

The Amazon is not a great place for either. Poor soil, not great transportation infrastructure (you have the river, but you have to get it to the river first), no winter to kill of bugs and pests. Some of the highest production costs in the world, all-in.
08-24-2019 10:49 AM
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Owl 69/70/75 Offline
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Post: #8763
RE: Trump Administration
(08-24-2019 10:18 AM)georgewebb Wrote:  
(08-23-2019 06:46 PM)Fort Bend Owl Wrote:  The U.S. should be leading the fight to try to squash the destruction of the rainforest.
But I thought that imposing American values on other countries was racist/imperialist/sexist/other forms of bad. Is it not?
In any case, it would seem more logical, more legal, and more effective for rain forest countries to lead that particular fight.

Environmentalism is a rich man's game. When you are starving, your primary concern is never going to be the temperature of the planet 100 years from now. The people there are going to do what they have to do in order to be able to have food, clothing, and shelter.

Exactly how would you go about "leading the fight to squash the destruction of the rainforest"?
(This post was last modified: 08-24-2019 11:30 AM by Owl 69/70/75.)
08-24-2019 10:53 AM
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Post: #8764
RE: Trump Administration
(08-24-2019 10:53 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(08-24-2019 10:18 AM)georgewebb Wrote:  
(08-23-2019 06:46 PM)Fort Bend Owl Wrote:  The U.S. should be leading the fight to try to squash the destruction of the rainforest.
But I thought that imposing American values on other countries was racist/imperialist/sexist/other forms of bad. Is it not?
In any case, it would seem more logical, more legal, and more effective for rain forest countries to lead that particular fight.

Environmentalism is a rich man's game. When you are starving, your primary concern is never going to be the temperature of the planet 100 years from now. The people there are going to do what they have to do in order to be able to have food, clothing, and shelter.

Exactly how would you go about "leading the fight to squat the destruction of the rainforest"?

Throwing other people’s money at it?
08-24-2019 11:02 AM
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OptimisticOwl Offline
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Post: #8765
RE: Trump Administration
(08-24-2019 10:49 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(08-24-2019 09:39 AM)ausowl Wrote:  
(08-23-2019 10:14 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(08-23-2019 06:46 PM)Fort Bend Owl Wrote:  I don't remember your drop-dead issues. But as you know, my biggest issue is climate change. It stuns me that no one is talking about the fires in the Amazon. The Amazon produces 20 percent of our planet's oxygen. Have we had one single comment from Trump on the fires? The U.S. should be leading the fight to try to squash the destruction of the rainforest.
I'm reading now that the vast majority of the fires are simply farmers burning off already cleared fields. The Amazon doesn't get a winter, so fields are burned off to kill bugs and pests. I've also seen statistics that show the rate of deforestation has risen slightly in the last few years, but is still well short of where it was a few decades ago.
I've also read something to the effect that this is a Brazilian/Chinese plot to increase their soybean production to replace the beans from the US. Good luck with that one. The economics of Amazon farming don't really support that--poor soil, poor transportation infrastructure, and no winter to kill off bugs makes the Amazon one of the most expensive places in the world to farm.
My cattle raising relatives think it's for grazing land. Variation on the soybean conspiracy theory.

The Amazon is not a great place for either. Poor soil, not great transportation infrastructure (you have the river, but you have to get it to the river first), no winter to kill of bugs and pests. Some of the highest production costs in the world, all-in.


Sugar cane for ethanol to power autos. So in a way, the burning is environmentally responsible. FBO should be in favor of it.
08-24-2019 11:27 AM
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Owl 69/70/75 Offline
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Post: #8766
RE: Trump Administration
(08-24-2019 11:27 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  
(08-24-2019 10:49 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(08-24-2019 09:39 AM)ausowl Wrote:  
(08-23-2019 10:14 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(08-23-2019 06:46 PM)Fort Bend Owl Wrote:  I don't remember your drop-dead issues. But as you know, my biggest issue is climate change. It stuns me that no one is talking about the fires in the Amazon. The Amazon produces 20 percent of our planet's oxygen. Have we had one single comment from Trump on the fires? The U.S. should be leading the fight to try to squash the destruction of the rainforest.
I'm reading now that the vast majority of the fires are simply farmers burning off already cleared fields. The Amazon doesn't get a winter, so fields are burned off to kill bugs and pests. I've also seen statistics that show the rate of deforestation has risen slightly in the last few years, but is still well short of where it was a few decades ago.
I've also read something to the effect that this is a Brazilian/Chinese plot to increase their soybean production to replace the beans from the US. Good luck with that one. The economics of Amazon farming don't really support that--poor soil, poor transportation infrastructure, and no winter to kill off bugs makes the Amazon one of the most expensive places in the world to farm.
My cattle raising relatives think it's for grazing land. Variation on the soybean conspiracy theory.
The Amazon is not a great place for either. Poor soil, not great transportation infrastructure (you have the river, but you have to get it to the river first), no winter to kill of bugs and pests. Some of the highest production costs in the world, all-in.
Sugar cane for ethanol to power autos. So in a way, the burning is environmentally responsible. FBO should be in favor of it.

Sugar cane does not do well in the Amazon. That's mostly in Mato Grosso, along with the biggest cattle producers. The transportation problem is even bigger in Mato Grosso, because they don't have the river. Everything they export has to come out by one road through a mountain pass to Sao Paulo. They have 100 mile traffic jams during the harvest season.

The biggest problem in Brazil is poverty. As I said above, environmentalism is a rich man's game. When you are worried about food, clothing, and shelter, you really don't give a damn what the temperature of the planet is going to be 100 years from now.
(This post was last modified: 08-24-2019 11:35 AM by Owl 69/70/75.)
08-24-2019 11:33 AM
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Post: #8767
RE: Trump Administration
Greenland, again

Despite the kneejerk reaction on the part of the Democrats to be against anything Trump, some people think the idea has some merit.

I am surprised the Dems don't see Greenland as the 52nd state, with two Dem Senators and a Dem representative.
08-24-2019 12:34 PM
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Post: #8768
RE: Trump Administration
(08-23-2019 06:46 PM)Fort Bend Owl Wrote:  The U.S. should be leading the fight to try to squash the destruction of the rainforest.

What do you suggest?

All Trump did was tell the leader of another sovereign nation that we were willing to help if they needed it. That's about all he can do at this point

What if they don't ask for it? What if they refuse to stop the conversion of rain forest into something else, whatever it is? It seems pretty obvious to me that the best place to protest the destruction of the rain forest is on the steps of the governments doing so/allowing it... and not on ones that have no legal standing in the conversation, unless you're willing to 'go to war' with nations that are peaceful/allies over it.
(This post was last modified: 08-24-2019 12:41 PM by Hambone10.)
08-24-2019 12:39 PM
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Post: #8769
RE: Trump Administration
08-24-2019 12:56 PM
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Post: #8770
RE: Trump Administration
(08-23-2019 07:02 PM)Fort Bend Owl Wrote:  In terms of climate change, Biden will absolutely get us back in the Paris Agreement.

Which is an absolutely worthless piece of paper, perhaps even more worthless than the Iran deal. A bunch of self-important people spent a few days in Paris on healthy expense accounts, and adopted an "agreement" that means absolutely nothing. Nobody actually agreed to do anything, save perhaps we agreed to write a bunch of checks in the end.

The problem is that very simply, environmentalism is a rich man's game. When you are worried about food, clothing, and shelter, you really don't give a damn about what will be the temperature of the planet 100 years from now. And when all the proposals that the green crowd can come up with result in significant harm to the economy with little or no meaningful reduction in greenhouse gases, selling that to the third world is going to be impossible. The greens keep saying that if we take a leadership position, the rest of the world will follow. No, they won't. Their primary concerns are getting fed, clothed, and housed. Until those needs are met, and particularly if green looks like setting them back on those goals, we aren't going to lead them anywhere.

Speaking of leadership, despite our withdrawal from Paris, we still seem to be leading the world in reducing greenhouse gases. We never ratified Kyoto, but I believe that while it was in effect we reduced our greenhouse gases more than anybody else, and may very well have been the only country to achieve our Kyoto goals. The same thing appears to be happening with Paris, from what I have been able to find. I think a reasonable policy is to say, "Hey, instead of signing feel-good sham agreements, we are going to go out and actually reduce our greenhouse gases. How about the rest of you joining in?"
08-24-2019 01:00 PM
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Post: #8771
RE: Trump Administration
(08-24-2019 01:00 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(08-23-2019 07:02 PM)Fort Bend Owl Wrote:  In terms of climate change, Biden will absolutely get us back in the Paris Agreement.



Speaking of leadership, despite our withdrawal from Paris, we still seem to be leading the world in reducing greenhouse gases. We never ratified Kyoto, but I believe that while it was in effect we reduced our greenhouse gases more than anybody else, and may very well have been the only country to achieve our Kyoto goals. The same thing appears to be happening with Paris, from what I have been able to find. I think a reasonable policy is to say, "Hey, instead of signing feel-good sham agreements, we are going to go out and actually reduce our greenhouse gases. How about the rest of you joining in?"

You keep saying that but you're wrong. You're using old data. We did have a 3-year decline from 2015-17 and led in overall emission decline but not percentage. But sadly, we went up 3.4 percent in 2018 (our 2nd largest increase in 20 years) and are projected to have another increase in 2019. And this link shows that transportation is a bigger cause of emissions than power, so we're going to have to figure out a way to get people to drive less. And that's not going to be easy to do in this country.

https://www.vox.com/2019/1/8/18174082/us...sions-2018
08-24-2019 02:16 PM
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Post: #8772
RE: Trump Administration
(08-24-2019 02:16 PM)Fort Bend Owl Wrote:  
(08-24-2019 01:00 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(08-23-2019 07:02 PM)Fort Bend Owl Wrote:  In terms of climate change, Biden will absolutely get us back in the Paris Agreement.
Speaking of leadership, despite our withdrawal from Paris, we still seem to be leading the world in reducing greenhouse gases. We never ratified Kyoto, but I believe that while it was in effect we reduced our greenhouse gases more than anybody else, and may very well have been the only country to achieve our Kyoto goals. The same thing appears to be happening with Paris, from what I have been able to find. I think a reasonable policy is to say, "Hey, instead of signing feel-good sham agreements, we are going to go out and actually reduce our greenhouse gases. How about the rest of you joining in?"
You keep saying that but you're wrong. You're using old data. We did have a 3-year decline from 2015-17 and led in overall emission decline but not percentage. But sadly, we went up 3.4 percent in 2018 (our 2nd largest increase in 20 years) and are projected to have another increase in 2019. And this link shows that transportation is a bigger cause of emissions than power, so we're going to have to figure out a way to get people to drive less. And that's not going to be easy to do in this country.
https://www.vox.com/2019/1/8/18174082/us...sions-2018

That's one group's opinion. I've seen others that say the opposite, not so much about 2018 and 2019, but primarily that the reduction since 1990 has been greater than that states. It's an uncertain target, and slight variations in methodology can produce differing results.

ETA: For example, this chart from EPA shows significant decline since 2005, and current levels back at about 1990 levels, which I think was the goal of either Kyoto or Paris (not going to look it up, you can and will correct me if I'm wrong).

https://cfpub.epa.gov/ghgdata/inventorye...onsect/all
(This post was last modified: 08-24-2019 02:55 PM by Owl 69/70/75.)
08-24-2019 02:32 PM
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Post: #8773
RE: Trump Administration
(08-24-2019 12:39 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  
(08-23-2019 06:46 PM)Fort Bend Owl Wrote:  The U.S. should be leading the fight to try to squash the destruction of the rainforest.

What do you suggest?

All Trump did was tell the leader of another sovereign nation that we were willing to help if they needed it. That's about all he can do at this point

What if they don't ask for it? What if they refuse to stop the conversion of rain forest into something else, whatever it is? It seems pretty obvious to me that the best place to protest the destruction of the rain forest is on the steps of the governments doing so/allowing it... and not on ones that have no legal standing in the conversation, unless you're willing to 'go to war' with nations that are peaceful/allies over it.

He can threaten Brazil with economic sanctions. That would be pretty extreme but if Brazil is burning down the rainforest in order to plant more soy, then that's going to have significant economic repercussions on our farmers' financials. I'd prefer him not to do that, but it's one thing he could certainly threaten behind the scenes if he was truly concerned about the environmental impact.

He could also go the other route and offer up some financial assistance of some type or another, under the condition that they put an end to the deforestation.
08-24-2019 02:52 PM
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Post: #8774
RE: Trump Administration
No question we should be trying to reduce emissions overall. Of course, the biggest impact would be to go with more nuclear, but nobody on the green side wants to do that.
08-24-2019 02:57 PM
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Post: #8775
RE: Trump Administration
(08-24-2019 02:32 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(08-24-2019 02:16 PM)Fort Bend Owl Wrote:  
(08-24-2019 01:00 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(08-23-2019 07:02 PM)Fort Bend Owl Wrote:  In terms of climate change, Biden will absolutely get us back in the Paris Agreement.
Speaking of leadership, despite our withdrawal from Paris, we still seem to be leading the world in reducing greenhouse gases. We never ratified Kyoto, but I believe that while it was in effect we reduced our greenhouse gases more than anybody else, and may very well have been the only country to achieve our Kyoto goals. The same thing appears to be happening with Paris, from what I have been able to find. I think a reasonable policy is to say, "Hey, instead of signing feel-good sham agreements, we are going to go out and actually reduce our greenhouse gases. How about the rest of you joining in?"
You keep saying that but you're wrong. You're using old data. We did have a 3-year decline from 2015-17 and led in overall emission decline but not percentage. But sadly, we went up 3.4 percent in 2018 (our 2nd largest increase in 20 years) and are projected to have another increase in 2019. And this link shows that transportation is a bigger cause of emissions than power, so we're going to have to figure out a way to get people to drive less. And that's not going to be easy to do in this country.
https://www.vox.com/2019/1/8/18174082/us...sions-2018

That's one group's opinion. I've seen others that say the opposite, not so much about 2018 and 2019, but primarily that the reduction since 1990 has been greater than that states. It's an uncertain target, and slight variations in methodology can produce differing results.

ETA: For example, this chart from EPA shows significant decline since 2005, and current levels back at about 1990 levels, which I think was the goal of either Kyoto or Paris (not going to look it up, you can and will correct me if I'm wrong).

https://cfpub.epa.gov/ghgdata/inventorye...onsect/all

That graph (which again stops at 2017) shows we're doing well in reducing the electricity and industry emissions, but horrible in transportation (+22 pct.) and agriculture (+9 pct). I think we need to work harder on trying to get employees working at home and getting incentives to use mass transit where available.
08-24-2019 03:03 PM
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Owl 69/70/75 Offline
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Post: #8776
RE: Trump Administration
(08-24-2019 03:03 PM)Fort Bend Owl Wrote:  
(08-24-2019 02:32 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(08-24-2019 02:16 PM)Fort Bend Owl Wrote:  
(08-24-2019 01:00 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(08-23-2019 07:02 PM)Fort Bend Owl Wrote:  In terms of climate change, Biden will absolutely get us back in the Paris Agreement.
Speaking of leadership, despite our withdrawal from Paris, we still seem to be leading the world in reducing greenhouse gases. We never ratified Kyoto, but I believe that while it was in effect we reduced our greenhouse gases more than anybody else, and may very well have been the only country to achieve our Kyoto goals. The same thing appears to be happening with Paris, from what I have been able to find. I think a reasonable policy is to say, "Hey, instead of signing feel-good sham agreements, we are going to go out and actually reduce our greenhouse gases. How about the rest of you joining in?"
You keep saying that but you're wrong. You're using old data. We did have a 3-year decline from 2015-17 and led in overall emission decline but not percentage. But sadly, we went up 3.4 percent in 2018 (our 2nd largest increase in 20 years) and are projected to have another increase in 2019. And this link shows that transportation is a bigger cause of emissions than power, so we're going to have to figure out a way to get people to drive less. And that's not going to be easy to do in this country.
https://www.vox.com/2019/1/8/18174082/us...sions-2018
That's one group's opinion. I've seen others that say the opposite, not so much about 2018 and 2019, but primarily that the reduction since 1990 has been greater than that states. It's an uncertain target, and slight variations in methodology can produce differing results.
ETA: For example, this chart from EPA shows significant decline since 2005, and current levels back at about 1990 levels, which I think was the goal of either Kyoto or Paris (not going to look it up, you can and will correct me if I'm wrong).
https://cfpub.epa.gov/ghgdata/inventorye...onsect/all
That graph (which again stops at 2017) shows we're doing well in reducing the electricity and industry emissions, but horrible in transportation (+22 pct.) and agriculture (+9 pct). I think we need to work harder on trying to get employees working at home and getting incentives to use mass transit where available.

But we are doing well in total, which is what really matters. Of course, the big reason is that fracking has produced a lot of cheap natural gas which is replacing coal. There is also a lot more wind in places like Texas that have deregulated electric utilities. Deregulation is absolutely essential for the economics of renewable energies to work. Texas now leads the US in wind generation.
08-24-2019 03:09 PM
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Post: #8777
RE: Trump Administration
(08-24-2019 02:52 PM)Fort Bend Owl Wrote:  
(08-24-2019 12:39 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  
(08-23-2019 06:46 PM)Fort Bend Owl Wrote:  The U.S. should be leading the fight to try to squash the destruction of the rainforest.

What do you suggest?

All Trump did was tell the leader of another sovereign nation that we were willing to help if they needed it. That's about all he can do at this point

What if they don't ask for it? What if they refuse to stop the conversion of rain forest into something else, whatever it is? It seems pretty obvious to me that the best place to protest the destruction of the rain forest is on the steps of the governments doing so/allowing it... and not on ones that have no legal standing in the conversation, unless you're willing to 'go to war' with nations that are peaceful/allies over it.

He can threaten Brazil with economic sanctions. That would be pretty extreme but if Brazil is burning down the rainforest in order to plant more soy, then that's going to have significant economic repercussions on our farmers' financials. I'd prefer him not to do that, but it's one thing he could certainly threaten behind the scenes if he was truly concerned about the environmental impact.

He could also go the other route and offer up some financial assistance of some type or another, under the condition that they put an end to the deforestation.


This is sort of my point though FBO...

This is your number one issue, and YOU aren't willing to put much pressure on Brazil. You're willing to write them a check, but why should WE be writing them a check? Aren't THEY citizens of this same world? Isn't the devastation happening THERE? All they need to do is stop doing it.

Seems to me that all the countries that signed on to Kyoto should be writing them a check, no?
08-24-2019 04:54 PM
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Post: #8778
RE: Trump Administration
(08-24-2019 02:52 PM)Fort Bend Owl Wrote:  
(08-24-2019 12:39 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  
(08-23-2019 06:46 PM)Fort Bend Owl Wrote:  The U.S. should be leading the fight to try to squash the destruction of the rainforest.

What do you suggest?

All Trump did was tell the leader of another sovereign nation that we were willing to help if they needed it. That's about all he can do at this point

What if they don't ask for it? What if they refuse to stop the conversion of rain forest into something else, whatever it is? It seems pretty obvious to me that the best place to protest the destruction of the rain forest is on the steps of the governments doing so/allowing it... and not on ones that have no legal standing in the conversation, unless you're willing to 'go to war' with nations that are peaceful/allies over it.

He can threaten Brazil with economic sanctions. That would be pretty extreme but if Brazil is burning down the rainforest in order to plant more soy, then that's going to have significant economic repercussions on our farmers' financials. I'd prefer him not to do that, but it's one thing he could certainly threaten behind the scenes if he was truly concerned about the environmental impact.

He could also go the other route and offer up some financial assistance of some type or another, under the condition that they put an end to the deforestation.

If Obama was still President, would you still be in favor of him threatening Brazil with economic sanctions? Or if Biden or Warren or Sanders were president?
08-24-2019 05:51 PM
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Post: #8779
RE: Trump Administration
Probably, since Democratic politicians have already threatened Brazil with economic sanctions since news of the fires broke. I'm guessing Trump won't do anything of note (we have apparently given Brazil some aid in fire-prevention planes) and the fires will burn themselves out shortly. Hopefully the publicity will help prevent too much more deforestation.

But like most issues in the news these days, climate and environmental issues will be one of the dividing lines in the 2020 election.
08-24-2019 06:10 PM
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Post: #8780
RE: Trump Administration
(08-24-2019 06:10 PM)Fort Bend Owl Wrote:  Probably, since Democratic politicians have already threatened Brazil with economic sanctions since news of the fires broke. I'm guessing Trump won't do anything of note (we have apparently given Brazil some aid in fire-prevention planes) and the fires will burn themselves out shortly. Hopefully the publicity will help prevent too much more deforestation.

But like most issues in the news these days, climate and environmental issues will be one of the dividing lines in the 2020 election.
If they were not dividing lines, they would not be in the news.

Ever see a story in the news that says “everybody is in agreement?
(This post was last modified: 08-24-2019 06:59 PM by OptimisticOwl.)
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