(08-19-2019 02:23 PM)Redwingtom Wrote:  

(08-19-2019 02:17 PM)Claw Wrote:  

(08-19-2019 02:14 PM)Redwingtom Wrote:  Eric, the problem is that gays don't see themselves as having a problem and many probably don't see their sex as a sin as you do.

And for the most part, the pray the gay away camps and such were setup for parents to send their children to. And these were shown in many studies to do nothing but harm to the children.

But yes, gay folks who may be Christian and want to stop all homosexual sex either before or after any marriage, can surely pray to not do so. I don't see that as a controversial issue whatsoever. But again to them, being gay is not a choice like smoking would be to your or me.

Yes gay away camps were set up parents to utilize. In a free country, they should have that right.

Of course, but they were shown to pretty much make things worse and hurt the children in the process.

All I recall was the passage of laws against them.

(08-19-2019 02:14 PM)Redwingtom Wrote:  Eric, the problem is that gays don't see themselves as having a problem and many probably don't see their sex as a sin as you do.

Thanks, captain obvious.

That is not at all unique to gays, most non-believers do not see fornication or lust as sin.

(08-19-2019 02:14 PM)Redwingtom Wrote:  And for the most part, the pray the gay away camps and such were setup for parents to send their children to. And these were shown in many studies to do nothing but harm to the children.

I think you know full well that is not what I was talking about here. What we are referring to is the new extreme laws being pushed in California that ban ALL gay conversion "camps". The idea that group therapy for gays seeking conversion is somehow harmful for consenting adults is absurd.

(08-19-2019 02:14 PM)Redwingtom Wrote:  But yes, gay folks who may be Christian and want to stop all homosexual sex either before or after any marriage, can surely pray to not do so. I don't see that as a controversial issue whatsoever. But again to them, being gay is not a choice like smoking would be to your or me.

Sexual sin is sexual sin. Gays dealing with sexual desire is not unique to being gay. Heterosexuals also deal with sexual sin and struggle with sexual desires and lust.

Men lusting for women is not akin to smoking cigarettes, and that is a downright silly comparison. Those lusts and desires are far deeper.

(08-19-2019 02:57 PM)ericsrevenge76 Wrote:  Sexual sin is sexual sin. Gays dealing with sexual desire is not unique to being gay. Heterosexuals also deal with sex sin and struggle with sexual desires and lust.

Men lusting for women is not akin to smoking cigarettes, and that is a downright silly comparison. Those lusts and desires are far deeper.

Eric, homosexuality is not the same thing as dealing with lustful desires for the opposite sex that could lead to the sins of adultery or fornication. Even with the examples provided of successfully overcoming sexual desire for other men's wives, at the end of the day you don't have to squash your sexuality. You can still act on these urges provided you marry a woman.

For those who feel those same sex attractions - and there is nothing that can explain away why these same sex attractions exist (sexual abuse, experimenting due to peer pressure, etc) - what is their recourse? If there is a percentage of the homosexual community that is genetically predisposed to same sex attractions, they would have no alternative to allow them to live sexually fulfilling lives.

Here is the best scenario I can think of that may drive it home. You are man. However, if you think lustful thoughts about a woman or engage in any sexual activities with ANY woman - then you are damned to hell. The only religiously approved relationship you are allowed to have is with another man. The church endorses you having sex with a man; however, if you so much as touch a woman sexually, you are a sinner that must repent. This is the challenge a homosexual man or a lesbian faces if he/she is to live a life according to the more conservative Christian denominations.

(08-19-2019 03:31 PM)miko33 Wrote:  

(08-19-2019 02:57 PM)ericsrevenge76 Wrote:  Sexual sin is sexual sin. Gays dealing with sexual desire is not unique to being gay. Heterosexuals also deal with sex sin and struggle with sexual desires and lust.

Men lusting for women is not akin to smoking cigarettes, and that is a downright silly comparison. Those lusts and desires are far deeper.

Eric, homosexuality is not the same thing as dealing with lustful desires for the opposite sex that could lead to the sins of adultery or fornication. Even with the examples provided of successfully overcoming sexual desire for other men's wives, at the end of the day you don't have to squash your sexuality. You can still act on these urges provided you marry a woman.

For those who feel those same sex attractions - and there is nothing that can explain away why these same sex attractions exist (sexual abuse, experimenting due to peer pressure, etc) - what is their recourse? If there is a percentage of the homosexual community that is genetically predisposed to same sex attractions, they would have no alternative to allow them to live sexually fulfilling lives.

Here is the best scenario I can think of that may drive it home. You are man. However, if you think lustful thoughts about a woman or engage in any sexual activities with ANY woman - then you are damned to hell. The only religiously approved relationship you are allowed to have is with another man. The church endorses you having sex with a man; however, if you so much as touch a woman sexually, you are a sinner that must repent. This is the challenge a homosexual man or a lesbian faces if he/she is to live a life according to the more conservative Christian denominations.

That's not anything unique about sin. Murder and theft come to mind. If you were obsessed with either you would be in the same situation.

(08-19-2019 03:31 PM)miko33 Wrote:  

(08-19-2019 02:57 PM)ericsrevenge76 Wrote:  Sexual sin is sexual sin. Gays dealing with sexual desire is not unique to being gay. Heterosexuals also deal with sex sin and struggle with sexual desires and lust.

Men lusting for women is not akin to smoking cigarettes, and that is a downright silly comparison. Those lusts and desires are far deeper.

Eric, homosexuality is not the same thing as dealing with lustful desires for the opposite sex that could lead to the sins of adultery or fornication. Even with the examples provided of successfully overcoming sexual desire for other men's wives, at the end of the day you don't have to squash your sexuality. You can still act on these urges provided you marry a woman.

For those who feel those same sex attractions - and there is nothing that can explain away why these same sex attractions exist (sexual abuse, experimenting due to peer pressure, etc) - what is their recourse? If there is a percentage of the homosexual community that is genetically predisposed to same sex attractions, they would have no alternative to allow them to live sexually fulfilling lives.

Here is the best scenario I can think of that may drive it home. You are man. However, if you think lustful thoughts about a woman or engage in any sexual activities with ANY woman - then you are damned to hell. The only religiously approved relationship you are allowed to have is with another man. The church endorses you having sex with a man; however, if you so much as touch a woman sexually, you are a sinner that must repent. This is the challenge a homosexual man or a lesbian faces if he/she is to live a life according to the more conservative Christian denominations.

Maybe you don't understand but we are talking about sin and desire in the eyes of God, not man. Your entire response is predicated on man's view of these issues, not God's. That misses the mark on the core subject here completely.

You are placing the value of a persons sexual desires and lust over all things, including God Himself.

For example you claim there is no way to explain away same sex attraction, but the very core issue here is sin and salvation, which tells us exactly where these lusts and desires originate from. You actually tried to frame it as totally genetic, and not a sin issue.

You framed the issue completely void of God, sin and salvation when you try to pretend same sex attraction is a totally natural and acceptable activity, when the entire concept is a serious sexual sin against God and His creation. You literally frame it as the most important thing of all, something that MUST be fulfilled and quenched or some terrible crime has been committed against that person.

You also try to frame the issue as if heterosexuals are totally fulfilled and satisfied with only one sexual partner all their life, therefore marriage fixes and removes their problems complement and forever. But this is the TOTAL OPPOSITE of reality. In fact most married men struggle badly with lust for women outside of marriage, and many others struggle with living in adultery throughout their lives.

So not only did you completely remove Sin, God and salvation from the equation and reframe it in a context totally separate from the Bible, you also mischaracterized the sexual issues and sin most married men struggle with today.

(08-19-2019 04:02 PM)Claw Wrote:  

(08-19-2019 03:31 PM)miko33 Wrote:  

(08-19-2019 02:57 PM)ericsrevenge76 Wrote:  Sexual sin is sexual sin. Gays dealing with sexual desire is not unique to being gay. Heterosexuals also deal with sex sin and struggle with sexual desires and lust.

Men lusting for women is not akin to smoking cigarettes, and that is a downright silly comparison. Those lusts and desires are far deeper.

Eric, homosexuality is not the same thing as dealing with lustful desires for the opposite sex that could lead to the sins of adultery or fornication. Even with the examples provided of successfully overcoming sexual desire for other men's wives, at the end of the day you don't have to squash your sexuality. You can still act on these urges provided you marry a woman.

For those who feel those same sex attractions - and there is nothing that can explain away why these same sex attractions exist (sexual abuse, experimenting due to peer pressure, etc) - what is their recourse? If there is a percentage of the homosexual community that is genetically predisposed to same sex attractions, they would have no alternative to allow them to live sexually fulfilling lives.

Here is the best scenario I can think of that may drive it home. You are man. However, if you think lustful thoughts about a woman or engage in any sexual activities with ANY woman - then you are damned to hell. The only religiously approved relationship you are allowed to have is with another man. The church endorses you having sex with a man; however, if you so much as touch a woman sexually, you are a sinner that must repent. This is the challenge a homosexual man or a lesbian faces if he/she is to live a life according to the more conservative Christian denominations.

That's not anything unique about sin. Murder and theft come to mind. If you were obsessed with either you would be in the same situation.

Isn't it remarkable how even non gays try so hard to frame these issues as being totally unique to gays?

Its a product of our modern society. People have literally been trained and brainwash to always frame these issues like this. Its virtuous and "woke" to frame and perceive them in such a manner. LGBTers are very, very, very special people who have their own special set of rules and special circumstances in all aspects, including sin, salvation and God.

Yet homosexuality and other sexual sins have been around since before the flood, and God has been dealing with these issues since back in Genesis. Yet people are always trying to frame it as a new "modern" issue almost as if God did not conceive of these things thousands of years ago or plan ahead for today societies and "woke" progressiveness.

(08-19-2019 02:14 PM)Redwingtom Wrote:  Eric, the problem is that gays don't see themselves as having a problem and many probably don't see their sex as a sin as you do.

And for the most part, the pray the gay away camps and such were setup for parents to send their children to. And these were shown in many studies to do nothing but harm to the children.

But yes, gay folks who may be Christian and want to stop all homosexual sex either before or after any marriage, can surely pray to not do so. I don't see that as a controversial issue whatsoever. But again to them, being gay is not a choice like smoking would be to your or me.

Some people are prone to alcohol addiction. For those who don't want to follow that path, they may have a harder time.

(08-19-2019 02:14 PM)Redwingtom Wrote:  Eric, the problem is that gays don't see themselves as having a problem and many probably don't see their sex as a sin as you do.

And for the most part, the pray the gay away camps and such were setup for parents to send their children to. And these were shown in many studies to do nothing but harm to the children.

But yes, gay folks who may be Christian and want to stop all homosexual sex either before or after any marriage, can surely pray to not do so. I don't see that as a controversial issue whatsoever. But again to them, being gay is not a choice like smoking would be to your or me.

So it's in their DNA is what you're saying. Except how to explain two identical twins who share the same DNA with one being gay and the other straight? If it's genetically coded to be gay or straight how does one explain that?

(08-19-2019 07:06 PM)bullet Wrote:  

(08-19-2019 02:14 PM)Redwingtom Wrote:  Eric, the problem is that gays don't see themselves as having a problem and many probably don't see their sex as a sin as you do.

And for the most part, the pray the gay away camps and such were setup for parents to send their children to. And these were shown in many studies to do nothing but harm to the children.

But yes, gay folks who may be Christian and want to stop all homosexual sex either before or after any marriage, can surely pray to not do so. I don't see that as a controversial issue whatsoever. But again to them, being gay is not a choice like smoking would be to your or me.

Some people are prone to alcohol addiction. For those who don't want to follow that path, they may have a harder time.

Not exactly sure what you're trying to say here, but I just wanted to point out that drug and alcohol addictions are a disease, they're not a "choice."

(08-20-2019 04:32 AM)TigerBlue4Ever Wrote:  

(08-19-2019 02:14 PM)Redwingtom Wrote:  Eric, the problem is that gays don't see themselves as having a problem and many probably don't see their sex as a sin as you do.

And for the most part, the pray the gay away camps and such were setup for parents to send their children to. And these were shown in many studies to do nothing but harm to the children.

But yes, gay folks who may be Christian and want to stop all homosexual sex either before or after any marriage, can surely pray to not do so. I don't see that as a controversial issue whatsoever. But again to them, being gay is not a choice like smoking would be to your or me.

So it's in their DNA is what you're saying. Except how to explain two identical twins who share the same DNA with one being gay and the other straight? If it's genetically coded to be gay or straight how does one explain that?

Not getting into the rest of this thread because I've already provided Eric with plenty of information, science literature, peer reviewed studies, and documentaries to refute many of his points and his only response was: don't care, Trust in God. So not worth my time.

I will respond to this however. DNA expression isn't black and white. Yes twins can have identical DNA, but they themselves can be quite different can they not? One contributor is HOW that DNA is expressed and when. There is a field called epigenetics, how the environment can shape DNA expression. For simplicity sake: DNA can be silenced or readily expressed through a multitude of factors (acetylation, methylation for example). Your sex, environment (food/toxins/social exposure/weather/etc.) can all play a role in how DNA, and thus protein production, is expressed throughout the body. Making us all more unique :).

Links for information (wikipedias for simplicity):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epigenetics
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methylation
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acetylation


As for sexuality and genetics:

No there is no 1 gay gene. Sexuality is likely polygenic and contributed to by a multitude of factors including genetics, fetal environment, hormone exposure, and early life development. So no, scientists cannot point to one gene and say "that makes you gay!" because life and biology isn't that simple.

To further complicate things, the brain develops and organizes itself most during critical periods of development where hormone shifts are more varied: fetal development, puberty, menopause/andropause. This is why a healthy environment for a baby is so important as it leads to lifelong structural changes. So MAYBE there's a critical window for things like sexuality and identity to be fostered, likely perinatal, but science has not illustrated how this is the case.

More links for brain organization (vs. activation, ex. being a woman's cycle).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Critical_period



Here are more complex review articles:

Epigenetics - https://www.nature.com/articles/nrg.2016.59 (NATURE)

Organization/Activation hypothesis: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/article...122591.pdf (Hormones and Behavior)

And here's a very specific paper discussing the topic: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25172350 (Advances in Genetics)

I haven't read this review but it's a discussion on methylation and acetylation (Acetylation- and Methylation-Related Epigenetic Proteins in the Context of Their Targets): https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5575660/ (Genes)


And since we've now fallen down the journal rabbity hole:
A very comprehensive review-
https://www.smr.jsexmed.org/article/S205...5/fulltext
Genetics of Human Sexual Behavior: Where We Are, Where We Are Going

(08-20-2019 09:30 AM)JDTulane Wrote:  

(08-20-2019 04:32 AM)TigerBlue4Ever Wrote:  

(08-19-2019 02:14 PM)Redwingtom Wrote:  Eric, the problem is that gays don't see themselves as having a problem and many probably don't see their sex as a sin as you do.

And for the most part, the pray the gay away camps and such were setup for parents to send their children to. And these were shown in many studies to do nothing but harm to the children.

But yes, gay folks who may be Christian and want to stop all homosexual sex either before or after any marriage, can surely pray to not do so. I don't see that as a controversial issue whatsoever. But again to them, being gay is not a choice like smoking would be to your or me.

So it's in their DNA is what you're saying. Except how to explain two identical twins who share the same DNA with one being gay and the other straight? If it's genetically coded to be gay or straight how does one explain that?

Not getting into the rest of this thread because I've already provided Eric with plenty of information, science literature, peer reviewed studies, and documentaries to refute many of his points and his only response was: don't care, Trust in God. So not worth my time.

I will respond to this however. DNA expression isn't black and white. Yes twins can have identical DNA, but they themselves can be quite different can they not? One contributor is HOW that DNA is expressed and when. There is a field called epigenetics, how the environment can shape DNA expression. For simplicity sake: DNA can be silenced or readily expressed through a multitude of factors (acetylation, methylation for example). Your sex, environment (food/toxins/social exposure/weather/etc.) can all play a role in how DNA, and thus protein production, is expressed throughout the body. Making us all more unique :).

Links for information (wikipedias for simplicity):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epigenetics
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methylation
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acetylation


As for sexuality and genetics:

No there is no 1 gay gene. Sexuality is likely polygenic and contributed to by a multitude of factors including genetics, fetal environment, hormone exposure, and early life development. So no, scientists cannot point to one gene and say "that makes you gay!" because life and biology isn't that simple.

To further complicate things, the brain develops and organizes itself most during critical periods of development where hormone shifts are more varied: fetal development, puberty, menopause/andropause. This is why a healthy environment for a baby is so important as it leads to lifelong structural changes. So MAYBE there's a critical window for things like sexuality and identity to be fostered, likely perinatal, but science has not illustrated how this is the case.

More links for brain organization (vs. activation, ex. being a woman's cycle).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Critical_period

JDT for some reason I believed you to be neuro something or another, but to literally use wikipedia, a source that any swinging d*ck can edit, shows me that either you don't have a true medical source or this is the only source that can support your argument..

Personally I don't know if a person is born gay or it's a choice... I can't say.

(08-20-2019 09:41 AM)gdunn Wrote:  

(08-20-2019 09:30 AM)JDTulane Wrote:  

(08-20-2019 04:32 AM)TigerBlue4Ever Wrote:  

(08-19-2019 02:14 PM)Redwingtom Wrote:  Eric, the problem is that gays don't see themselves as having a problem and many probably don't see their sex as a sin as you do.

And for the most part, the pray the gay away camps and such were setup for parents to send their children to. And these were shown in many studies to do nothing but harm to the children.

But yes, gay folks who may be Christian and want to stop all homosexual sex either before or after any marriage, can surely pray to not do so. I don't see that as a controversial issue whatsoever. But again to them, being gay is not a choice like smoking would be to your or me.

So it's in their DNA is what you're saying. Except how to explain two identical twins who share the same DNA with one being gay and the other straight? If it's genetically coded to be gay or straight how does one explain that?

Not getting into the rest of this thread because I've already provided Eric with plenty of information, science literature, peer reviewed studies, and documentaries to refute many of his points and his only response was: don't care, Trust in God. So not worth my time.

I will respond to this however. DNA expression isn't black and white. Yes twins can have identical DNA, but they themselves can be quite different can they not? One contributor is HOW that DNA is expressed and when. There is a field called epigenetics, how the environment can shape DNA expression. For simplicity sake: DNA can be silenced or readily expressed through a multitude of factors (acetylation, methylation for example). Your sex, environment (food/toxins/social exposure/weather/etc.) can all play a role in how DNA, and thus protein production, is expressed throughout the body. Making us all more unique :).

Links for information (wikipedias for simplicity):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epigenetics
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methylation
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acetylation


As for sexuality and genetics:

No there is no 1 gay gene. Sexuality is likely polygenic and contributed to by a multitude of factors including genetics, fetal environment, hormone exposure, and early life development. So no, scientists cannot point to one gene and say "that makes you gay!" because life and biology isn't that simple.

To further complicate things, the brain develops and organizes itself most during critical periods of development where hormone shifts are more varied: fetal development, puberty, menopause/andropause. This is why a healthy environment for a baby is so important as it leads to lifelong structural changes. So MAYBE there's a critical window for things like sexuality and identity to be fostered, likely perinatal, but science has not illustrated how this is the case.

More links for brain organization (vs. activation, ex. being a woman's cycle).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Critical_period

JDT for some reason I believed you to be neuro something or another, but to literally use wikipedia, a source that any swinging d*ck can edit, shows me that either you don't have a true medical source or this is the only source that can support your argument..

Personally I don't know if a person is born gay or it's a choice... I can't say.

I used wikipedia because not everyone on this forum has a science degree nor wants to read through science journals. Would you like additional sources?


Here are more complex review articles:

Epigenetics - https://www.nature.com/articles/nrg.2016.59 (NATURE)

Organization/Activation hypothesis: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/article...122591.pdf (Hormones and Behavior)

And here's a very specific paper discussing the topic: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25172350 (Advances in Genetics)

I haven't read this review but it's a discussion on methylation and acetylation (Acetylation- and Methylation-Related Epigenetic Proteins in the Context of Their Targets): https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5575660/ (Genes)


And since we've now fallen down the journal rabbity hole:
A very comprehensive review-
https://www.smr.jsexmed.org/article/S205...5/fulltext
Genetics of Human Sexual Behavior: Where We Are, Where We Are Going

(08-20-2019 09:42 AM)JDTulane Wrote:  

(08-20-2019 09:41 AM)gdunn Wrote:  

(08-20-2019 09:30 AM)JDTulane Wrote:  

(08-20-2019 04:32 AM)TigerBlue4Ever Wrote:  

(08-19-2019 02:14 PM)Redwingtom Wrote:  Eric, the problem is that gays don't see themselves as having a problem and many probably don't see their sex as a sin as you do.

And for the most part, the pray the gay away camps and such were setup for parents to send their children to. And these were shown in many studies to do nothing but harm to the children.

But yes, gay folks who may be Christian and want to stop all homosexual sex either before or after any marriage, can surely pray to not do so. I don't see that as a controversial issue whatsoever. But again to them, being gay is not a choice like smoking would be to your or me.

So it's in their DNA is what you're saying. Except how to explain two identical twins who share the same DNA with one being gay and the other straight? If it's genetically coded to be gay or straight how does one explain that?

Not getting into the rest of this thread because I've already provided Eric with plenty of information, science literature, peer reviewed studies, and documentaries to refute many of his points and his only response was: don't care, Trust in God. So not worth my time.

I will respond to this however. DNA expression isn't black and white. Yes twins can have identical DNA, but they themselves can be quite different can they not? One contributor is HOW that DNA is expressed and when. There is a field called epigenetics, how the environment can shape DNA expression. For simplicity sake: DNA can be silenced or readily expressed through a multitude of factors (acetylation, methylation for example). Your sex, environment (food/toxins/social exposure/weather/etc.) can all play a role in how DNA, and thus protein production, is expressed throughout the body. Making us all more unique :).

Links for information (wikipedias for simplicity):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epigenetics
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methylation
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acetylation


As for sexuality and genetics:

No there is no 1 gay gene. Sexuality is likely polygenic and contributed to by a multitude of factors including genetics, fetal environment, hormone exposure, and early life development. So no, scientists cannot point to one gene and say "that makes you gay!" because life and biology isn't that simple.

To further complicate things, the brain develops and organizes itself most during critical periods of development where hormone shifts are more varied: fetal development, puberty, menopause/andropause. This is why a healthy environment for a baby is so important as it leads to lifelong structural changes. So MAYBE there's a critical window for things like sexuality and identity to be fostered, likely perinatal, but science has not illustrated how this is the case.

More links for brain organization (vs. activation, ex. being a woman's cycle).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Critical_period

JDT for some reason I believed you to be neuro something or another, but to literally use wikipedia, a source that any swinging d*ck can edit, shows me that either you don't have a true medical source or this is the only source that can support your argument..

Personally I don't know if a person is born gay or it's a choice... I can't say.

I used wikipedia because not everyone on this forum has a science degree nor wants to read through science journals. Would you like additional sources?

No just pointing out that wikepedia may not be the best option due to the fact that anyone, even my 3 year old can go in and change it if need be. One would think that there'd be a different source to use.. I'm going to be honest, the "gay debate" is none of my concern. What one person does in their bedroom has no bearing on my life nor does it hinder my goals or hobbies...

Quote:No just pointing out that wikepedia may not be the best option due to the fact that anyone, even my 3 year old can go in and change it if need be. One would think that there'd be a different source to use.. I'm going to be honest, the "gay debate" is none of my concern. What one person does in their bedroom has no bearing on my life nor does it hinder my goals or hobbies...

The blessing and the curse of wikipedia is that it's opensource and easily edited. For science, no one cites wikipedia. But wikipedia articles themselves are heavily cited. So it's still a great layman source for finding legit material to read off of. If anyone is editing a topic on acetylation to spread misinformation, they need to get a life. Like I said, I posted them to give people some fun reads... not to say they're 100% sound. See the above articles I dropped for more comprehensive reviews.

And yes, I have a neuro background.

(08-20-2019 09:30 AM)JDTulane Wrote:  Not getting into the rest of this thread because I've already provided Eric with plenty of information, science literature, peer reviewed studies, and documentaries to refute many of his points and his only response was: don't care, Trust in God. So not worth my time.

Uh, no, you have done no such thing. What has happened is I have given you a ton of proof and evidence that the bible is REAL, and you have never even tried to refute any of it. You already know you can't.

You can turn a blind eye and lie to yourself your entire life, but the day is quickly coming where you will stand before Christ as your judge and jury, and you will have no excuse whatsoever.

Its your choice in the end. You either want the truth, or you want a lie and deception.

You are the one who pay the eternal price in the end. No short term sexual fulfillment is worth an eternity in hell separated from your Creator.

(08-20-2019 10:57 AM)ericsrevenge76 Wrote:  

(08-20-2019 09:30 AM)JDTulane Wrote:  Not getting into the rest of this thread because I've already provided Eric with plenty of information, science literature, peer reviewed studies, and documentaries to refute many of his points and his only response was: don't care, Trust in God. So not worth my time.

Uh, no, you have done no such thing. What has happened is I have given you a ton of proof and evidence that the bible is REAL, and you have never even tried to refute any of it.
You can turn a blind eye and lie to yourself your entire life, but the day is quickly coming where you will stand before Christ as your judge and jury, and you will have no excuse whatsoever.
Its your choice in the end. You either want the truth, or you want a lie and deception.
You are the one who pay the eternal price in the end. No sexual fulfillment is worth an eternity in hell separated from your Creator.

Case and point. Long post with multiple journal articles including ones that discuss sexuality, genetics, development, and social framework and he deletes all of it to fear monger.

Good luck to you Eric.

(08-20-2019 11:01 AM)JDTulane Wrote:  

(08-20-2019 10:57 AM)ericsrevenge76 Wrote:  

(08-20-2019 09:30 AM)JDTulane Wrote:  Not getting into the rest of this thread because I've already provided Eric with plenty of information, science literature, peer reviewed studies, and documentaries to refute many of his points and his only response was: don't care, Trust in God. So not worth my time.

Uh, no, you have done no such thing. What has happened is I have given you a ton of proof and evidence that the bible is REAL, and you have never even tried to refute any of it.
You can turn a blind eye and lie to yourself your entire life, but the day is quickly coming where you will stand before Christ as your judge and jury, and you will have no excuse whatsoever.
Its your choice in the end. You either want the truth, or you want a lie and deception.
You are the one who pay the eternal price in the end. No sexual fulfillment is worth an eternity in hell separated from your Creator.

Case and point. Long post with multiple journal articles including ones that discuss sexuality, genetics, development, and social framework and he deletes all of it to fear monger.

Good luck to you Eric.

There is not a single thing in that post that even remotely debunks the Bible or the Gospel and you know it.

Stop trying to pretend otherwise.

You are only deceiving yourself.

To be clear...Unless theft,fraud,violence or destruction of property is involved...what consenting ADULTS do with each other is none of my business. I oppose any and all laws designed to limit such interaction.

Do I believe people who "think' they have an attraction for the same sex be helped by religious intervention? Yes. I think therapy would also help them with their confusion. Do I believe that truly gay men and women can be changed with prayer? Well... They might choose not to engage their sexual desires..but..that won't stop them from having them. Personally...Id rather see them be happy than tortured by self-denying their desires.

(08-20-2019 11:37 AM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  To be clear...Unless theft,fraud,violence or destruction of property is involved...what consenting ADULTS do with each other is none of my business. I oppose any and all laws designed to limit such interaction.

Do I believe people who "think' they have an attraction for the same sex be helped by religious intervention? Yes. I think therapy would also help them with their confusion. Do I believe that truly gay men and women can be changed with prayer? Well... They might choose not to engage their sexual desires..but..that won't stop them from having them. Personally...Id rather see them be happy than tortured by self-denying their desires.

I think this is the fairest and kindest avenue for conservatives to take. I hope more people on the right take your stance. Especially since studies show that gay conversion (going from homosexual --> heterosexual) doesn't work and more often is actually VERY harmful (which is why many states are banning this GCT). I provided Eric with a litany of links once on this topic. I'll try and find that post again.


Dug it up and edited a bit:

Quote:I'm gonna side with the US Surgeon General and the APA on this. Both have released statements in the recent past deeming GCT to be either ineffectual, unethical, and/or harmful.
APA
SG



"There is no peer-reviewed empirical psychological research objectively documenting the ability to 'change' an individual's sexual orientation. Furthermore, there is no peer-reviewed empirical psychological research demonstrating that homosexuality or bisexuality constitutes a disorder. In addition to the lack of empirical support for the claim that sexual orientation can be changed, empirical evidence indicates that attempts at changing sexual orientation can be harmful." APS
APS

I was curious so I did a quick search on any paper that actually did followup on those that had received this "therapy". Shidlo, A., & Schroeder, 2002, did a study and followedup with 202 men and women that had the conversion. Out of 202 people, only 8 said they were truly "converted". 7 of those 8 were actively working at or were being paid in some capacity by a gay conversion organization. The study


If you ever want a serious examination on the dangers of GCT:

https://video.vice.com/en_us/video/livin...9a33a75810

If you ever want a laugh while enjoying the ridiculous of this "therapy" watch:



Here is an update on where it is legal and also how the trend is rising for outright bans across the country (as well as stats on how many have received this "therapy"):

https://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/w...n-2018.pdf

ALL OF THIS TO SAY: This practice is more recently being viewed as dangerous, ineffective, and unethical. Medical experts agree. Science experts agree. Testimonials from survivors agree.

So I think there's an interesting debate around "praying the gay away" meaning either praying yourself straight (which ain't gonna happen) vs. using the power of prayer to remain abstinent and thus sin free (if it works for ya, power to ya but I would think to find that life a little empty). I guess that's up to the person.

(08-20-2019 01:34 PM)JDTulane Wrote:  So I think there's an interesting debate around "praying the gay away" meaning either praying yourself straight (which ain't gonna happen) vs. using the power of prayer to remain abstinent and thus sin free (if it works for ya, power to ya but I would think to find that life a little empty). I guess that's up to the person.

Imagine how empty eternal death in a lake of fire will feel. Particularly when you realize how it was your own free choice that sent you there, and all you had to do to avoid it was simply BELIEVE in Jesus and the Gospel.

And there is no such thing as a "sin free" life. ALL people are sinners and battle sin, including all Christians. Salvation has nothing to do with being a perfect sinless person, salvation comes from FAITH alone in Jesus, even though you still fail and sin at times.

I searched my whole life for fulfillment. Search it out in sin, sex, drugs, drinking, partying and all type of pleasure and sin I could imagine. I never found fulfillment, only emptiness in the end. I never even knew what fulfillment was until I found salvation and truth in the Gospel and Jesus.

As I have told you before, what you should be seeking and asking is "is the Bible true?" If the Bible is true than what a waste it is to seek pleasure in the flesh for a few measly decades, only to wind up receiving all eternity in hell of your own free will and choice.

Eternal salvation and life is such a simple thing, its literally a FREE GIFT of God. All you have to do is accept it and believe.