Interesting that Trump is to blame (according to the lad) for the El Paso shooter doing what he did, and the proof according to the lad is his stating some congruencies between the 'manifesto' and Trump statements.

If the lad ever bothered to read the manifesto, he would also see in the 'manifesto' the rambling about the destruction of the environment, an anti-capitalist, and anti-people radical green ideology. He specifically rails against farming, oil drilling, plastic, paper towels and “consumer culture.”

On the environment and corporatism:

Quote:“My whole life, I have been preparing for a future that currently doesn’t exist.”

He then proceeds to justify his murderous rampage as “the logical step … to decrease the number of people in America using resources.”

So, since the lad is all over playing the 'blame game', how about all those climate alarmist Democrats on the debate stage last week warning of a looming environmental Armageddon any chance they get? How about those bevy of Democratic candidates screaming about evil corporatism? If I were to take the lad's tack in assigning blame, my comment would be that the truly odd thing is that the shooter's not running for the Democrat nomination.

(08-06-2019 06:16 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(08-06-2019 12:42 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(08-06-2019 12:25 AM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(08-06-2019 12:16 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(08-05-2019 11:37 PM)Rice93 Wrote:  Wait... the problem is that liberals are calling out right wing rhetoric when it comes to immigration/minorities (and not the rhetoric itself)? Is that what you think set off the gunman?

Nope, but I am not surprised you want to see it that way.

It the the people on the left gloating publicly that immigration and Hispanic population growth will turn Texas blue who run the risk of setting off the nuttiest nuts on the right. Not a thing to do with right wing rhetoric.

I don't think right wing rhetoric sets off ALL mass shooters. I think it contributes to some of these recent ones, though. Quite a bit more so than liberals saying that Texas is going to turn blue.

Quote:I have heard the Dayton shooter was a self-described leftist and Elizabeth Warren supporter. If true, then we have competing ideologies leading to the same violence. Might make it tough to make it a one-sided thing.

leftist Warren supporter

Yeah... I've never said that all mass shooters are right wingers (have you heard anybody make that claim?). All sorts of people snap and way too many of these people have weapons capable of high carnage readily available.

OTOH... the El Paso shooter made his motivations crystal clear.

Yes, I have heard that claim. Not from you, of course. Also heard that all the shooters are white males.

The rhetoric on those websites might prime the pump, but the actual trigger may well come from a simple statement by a person of other convictions. Hundreds, maybe thousands post on those websites. If one goes wacko now and then, it fits the definition of lone gunman. Were there support troops in El Paso? Was there a small army doing the shooting? How many cars did they travel to EP in? It's not a vast, right-wing conspiracy.

Same could be said of the Dayton guy. Lots of hate on left wing sites. Hate towards conservatives, Republicans, and Trump. Maybe a right-winger said something to set him off, after the leftist sites set him up. Doesn't mean it was a vast left-wing conspiracy.

Damn, now the left is debating the definition of "one". Is that what they call fuzzy math?

You’re right that it could have been thousands of posts that helped twist this man’s mind.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguar...t-invasion

This ONE man. And we don't know what posts, and by whom, triggered him to action.

Same for the Dayton guy, just different posts.

(08-06-2019 06:36 AM)tanqtonic Wrote:  

(08-06-2019 06:27 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(08-06-2019 06:19 AM)tanqtonic Wrote:  

(08-06-2019 06:16 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(08-06-2019 12:42 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  Yes, I have heard that claim. Not from you, of course. Also heard that all the shooters are white males.

The rhetoric on those websites might prime the pump, but the actual trigger may well come from a simple statement by a person of other convictions. Hundreds, maybe thousands post on those websites. If one goes wacko now and then, it fits the definition of lone gunman. Were there support troops in El Paso? Was there a small army doing the shooting? How many cars did they travel to EP in? It's not a vast, right-wing conspiracy.

Same could be said of the Dayton guy. Lots of hate on left wing sites. Hate towards conservatives, Republicans, and Trump. Maybe a right-winger said something to set him off, after the leftist sites set him up. Doesn't mean it was a vast left-wing conspiracy.

Damn, now the left is debating the definition of "one". Is that what they call fuzzy math?

You’re right that it could have been thousands of posts that helped twist this man’s mind.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguar...t-invasion

Or maybe it was the constant fking love for 'open borders' by a whole swath of people?

You are honestly suggesting that your personal interpretation of one party’s policy position (the Dem Party is not actually advocating for open, unchecked, immigration no matter how frequently you say they are) influenced someone to commit mass murder, as opposed to a highly visible public figure talking about a “invasion” from the southern border, which the murderer echoed in his manifesto?

Really?

I guess by that logic Bernie is the cause of Hodgkinson. Glad you cleared that one up for us son.

And Elizabeth Warren is responsible for Dayton.

(08-06-2019 09:01 AM)tanqtonic Wrote:  Interesting that Trump is to blame (according to the lad) for the El Paso shooter doing what he did, and the proof according to the lad is his stating some congruencies between the 'manifesto' and Trump statements.

If the lad ever bothered to read the manifesto, he would also see in the 'manifesto' the rambling about the destruction of the environment, an anti-capitalist, and anti-people radical green ideology. He specifically rails against farming, oil drilling, plastic, paper towels and “consumer culture.”

On the environment and corporatism:

Quote:“My whole life, I have been preparing for a future that currently doesn’t exist.”

He then proceeds to justify his murderous rampage as “the logical step … to decrease the number of people in America using resources.”

So, since the lad is all over playing the 'blame game', how about all those climate alarmist Democrats on the debate stage last week warning of a looming environmental Armageddon any chance they get? How about those bevy of Democratic candidates screaming about evil corporatism? If I were to take the lad's tack in assigning blame, my comment would be that the truly odd thing is that the shooter's not running for the Democrat nomination.

Trump is to blame for everything. If it rains. If it doesn't rain. Whatever.

Your last sentence is spot on. This shooter was a microcosm of the Democratic candidates. The only difference is, he took direct action while they would have the police, army, thought police, and FBI do it for them.

Serious question - did WalMart have security in the El Paso store? On a day when there were a reported 3000 people in the store it seems that would have been prudent. If security was in the store, did they engage the shooter?

Another serious question - in Dayton, police neutralized the shooter reportedly in less than 1 minute. How long did it take the police in El Paso to engage the shooter.

These questions were likely answered in the aftermath of these incidents, but I missed them. Thanks!

(08-06-2019 11:33 AM)Tomball Owl Wrote:  Serious question - did WalMart have security in the El Paso store? On a day when there were a reported 3000 people in the store it seems that would have been prudent. If security was in the store, did they engage the shooter?

Another serious question - in Dayton, police neutralized the shooter reportedly in less than 1 minute. How long did it take the police in El Paso to engage the shooter.

These questions were likely answered in the aftermath of these incidents, but I missed them. Thanks!

El Paso shooting was at one of the busiest Walmarts in U.S. — but it lacked security

Quote:“There were 3,000 shoppers in the store when the shooting occurred, which is more than you would typically have at a Black Friday,” said Burt P. Flickinger III, a retail consultant who has studied the Walmart. “Of any of the hundreds of thousands of retail stores in the country, it’s in the top five for all Walmarts.”

Despite the large crowd, there wasn’t any security guarding the store, according to a Walmart spokesman.

Quote:Randy Hargrove, a Walmart spokesman at its Bentonville, Ark., headquarters, confirmed the Walmart didn't have a security guard on duty at the time of the attack.

(08-06-2019 12:08 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:  

(08-06-2019 11:33 AM)Tomball Owl Wrote:  Serious question - did WalMart have security in the El Paso store? On a day when there were a reported 3000 people in the store it seems that would have been prudent. If security was in the store, did they engage the shooter?

Another serious question - in Dayton, police neutralized the shooter reportedly in less than 1 minute. How long did it take the police in El Paso to engage the shooter.

These questions were likely answered in the aftermath of these incidents, but I missed them. Thanks!

El Paso shooting was at one of the busiest Walmarts in U.S. — but it lacked security

Quote:“There were 3,000 shoppers in the store when the shooting occurred, which is more than you would typically have at a Black Friday,” said Burt P. Flickinger III, a retail consultant who has studied the Walmart. “Of any of the hundreds of thousands of retail stores in the country, it’s in the top five for all Walmarts.”

Despite the large crowd, there wasn’t any security guarding the store, according to a Walmart spokesman.

Quote:Randy Hargrove, a Walmart spokesman at its Bentonville, Ark., headquarters, confirmed the Walmart didn't have a security guard on duty at the time of the attack.

Wow. That’s not good.

I found this on police response time.

“Allen said his department received initial reports of the shooting at 10:39 a.m. and first responders arrived six minutes later. Police asked people to stay away from the area and to look for missing family members at a school being used as a reunification area. El Paso Police Sgt. Enrique Carrillo told reporters shortly before 1 p.m. that one person was in custody and there was no longer an "imminent threat" to the area.”

https://www.foxnews.com/us/el-paso-walma...-allen.amp

Less than a minute in Dayton, 6 minutes later in El Paso. Even a minute would seem like an eternity in such a situation.

(08-06-2019 01:37 PM)Tomball Owl Wrote:  

(08-06-2019 12:08 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:  

(08-06-2019 11:33 AM)Tomball Owl Wrote:  Serious question - did WalMart have security in the El Paso store? On a day when there were a reported 3000 people in the store it seems that would have been prudent. If security was in the store, did they engage the shooter?

Another serious question - in Dayton, police neutralized the shooter reportedly in less than 1 minute. How long did it take the police in El Paso to engage the shooter.

These questions were likely answered in the aftermath of these incidents, but I missed them. Thanks!

El Paso shooting was at one of the busiest Walmarts in U.S. — but it lacked security

Quote:“There were 3,000 shoppers in the store when the shooting occurred, which is more than you would typically have at a Black Friday,” said Burt P. Flickinger III, a retail consultant who has studied the Walmart. “Of any of the hundreds of thousands of retail stores in the country, it’s in the top five for all Walmarts.”

Despite the large crowd, there wasn’t any security guarding the store, according to a Walmart spokesman.

Quote:Randy Hargrove, a Walmart spokesman at its Bentonville, Ark., headquarters, confirmed the Walmart didn't have a security guard on duty at the time of the attack.

Wow. That’s not good.

I found this on police response time.

“Allen said his department received initial reports of the shooting at 10:39 a.m. and first responders arrived six minutes later. Police asked people to stay away from the area and to look for missing family members at a school being used as a reunification area. El Paso Police Sgt. Enrique Carrillo told reporters shortly before 1 p.m. that one person was in custody and there was no longer an "imminent threat" to the area.”

https://www.foxnews.com/us/el-paso-walma...-allen.amp

Less than a minute in Dayton, 6 minutes later in El Paso. Even a minute would seem like an eternity in such a situation.

I believe the Dayton shooting happened in a popular going out area, at night, where bouncers and cops were numerous.

So I wouldn't use the response times to compare the quality of the two departments given the circumstances of places/times.

(08-06-2019 01:55 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(08-06-2019 01:37 PM)Tomball Owl Wrote:  

(08-06-2019 12:08 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:  

(08-06-2019 11:33 AM)Tomball Owl Wrote:  Serious question - did WalMart have security in the El Paso store? On a day when there were a reported 3000 people in the store it seems that would have been prudent. If security was in the store, did they engage the shooter?

Another serious question - in Dayton, police neutralized the shooter reportedly in less than 1 minute. How long did it take the police in El Paso to engage the shooter.

These questions were likely answered in the aftermath of these incidents, but I missed them. Thanks!

El Paso shooting was at one of the busiest Walmarts in U.S. — but it lacked security

Quote:“There were 3,000 shoppers in the store when the shooting occurred, which is more than you would typically have at a Black Friday,” said Burt P. Flickinger III, a retail consultant who has studied the Walmart. “Of any of the hundreds of thousands of retail stores in the country, it’s in the top five for all Walmarts.”

Despite the large crowd, there wasn’t any security guarding the store, according to a Walmart spokesman.

Quote:Randy Hargrove, a Walmart spokesman at its Bentonville, Ark., headquarters, confirmed the Walmart didn't have a security guard on duty at the time of the attack.

Wow. That’s not good.

I found this on police response time.

“Allen said his department received initial reports of the shooting at 10:39 a.m. and first responders arrived six minutes later. Police asked people to stay away from the area and to look for missing family members at a school being used as a reunification area. El Paso Police Sgt. Enrique Carrillo told reporters shortly before 1 p.m. that one person was in custody and there was no longer an "imminent threat" to the area.”

https://www.foxnews.com/us/el-paso-walma...-allen.amp

Less than a minute in Dayton, 6 minutes later in El Paso. Even a minute would seem like an eternity in such a situation.

I believe the Dayton shooting happened in a popular going out area, at night, where bouncers and cops were numerous.

So I wouldn't use the response times to compare the quality of the two departments given the circumstances of places/times.

And Walmart in El Paso on tax-free day was obviously a "popular going out area" where security and cops should have been present and numerous.

(08-06-2019 02:01 PM)Tomball Owl Wrote:  

(08-06-2019 01:55 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(08-06-2019 01:37 PM)Tomball Owl Wrote:  

(08-06-2019 12:08 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:  

(08-06-2019 11:33 AM)Tomball Owl Wrote:  Serious question - did WalMart have security in the El Paso store? On a day when there were a reported 3000 people in the store it seems that would have been prudent. If security was in the store, did they engage the shooter?

Another serious question - in Dayton, police neutralized the shooter reportedly in less than 1 minute. How long did it take the police in El Paso to engage the shooter.

These questions were likely answered in the aftermath of these incidents, but I missed them. Thanks!

El Paso shooting was at one of the busiest Walmarts in U.S. — but it lacked security

Quote:“There were 3,000 shoppers in the store when the shooting occurred, which is more than you would typically have at a Black Friday,” said Burt P. Flickinger III, a retail consultant who has studied the Walmart. “Of any of the hundreds of thousands of retail stores in the country, it’s in the top five for all Walmarts.”

Despite the large crowd, there wasn’t any security guarding the store, according to a Walmart spokesman.

Quote:Randy Hargrove, a Walmart spokesman at its Bentonville, Ark., headquarters, confirmed the Walmart didn't have a security guard on duty at the time of the attack.

Wow. That’s not good.

I found this on police response time.

“Allen said his department received initial reports of the shooting at 10:39 a.m. and first responders arrived six minutes later. Police asked people to stay away from the area and to look for missing family members at a school being used as a reunification area. El Paso Police Sgt. Enrique Carrillo told reporters shortly before 1 p.m. that one person was in custody and there was no longer an "imminent threat" to the area.”

https://www.foxnews.com/us/el-paso-walma...-allen.amp

Less than a minute in Dayton, 6 minutes later in El Paso. Even a minute would seem like an eternity in such a situation.

I believe the Dayton shooting happened in a popular going out area, at night, where bouncers and cops were numerous.

So I wouldn't use the response times to compare the quality of the two departments given the circumstances of places/times.

And Walmart in El Paso on tax-free day was obviously a "popular going out area" where security and cops should have been present and numerous.

Wow. That seems pretty problematic. I wonder if Walmart will be subject to any lawsuits for what seems like incredibly inadequate (? zero) security.

(08-06-2019 02:08 PM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(08-06-2019 02:01 PM)Tomball Owl Wrote:  

(08-06-2019 01:55 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(08-06-2019 01:37 PM)Tomball Owl Wrote:  

(08-06-2019 12:08 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:  El Paso shooting was at one of the busiest Walmarts in U.S. — but it lacked security

Wow. That’s not good.

I found this on police response time.

“Allen said his department received initial reports of the shooting at 10:39 a.m. and first responders arrived six minutes later. Police asked people to stay away from the area and to look for missing family members at a school being used as a reunification area. El Paso Police Sgt. Enrique Carrillo told reporters shortly before 1 p.m. that one person was in custody and there was no longer an "imminent threat" to the area.”

https://www.foxnews.com/us/el-paso-walma...-allen.amp

Less than a minute in Dayton, 6 minutes later in El Paso. Even a minute would seem like an eternity in such a situation.

I believe the Dayton shooting happened in a popular going out area, at night, where bouncers and cops were numerous.

So I wouldn't use the response times to compare the quality of the two departments given the circumstances of places/times.

And Walmart in El Paso on tax-free day was obviously a "popular going out area" where security and cops should have been present and numerous.

Wow. That seems pretty problematic. I wonder if Walmart will be subject to any lawsuits for what seems like incredibly inadequate (? zero) security.

I dont think there is any question over suits -- anyone can sue anyone else for anything.

The issue is whether Walmart is liable. Do you think they were negligent in not having armed security? If so, what size of company is 'required' to provide armed security? In your mind, is, say, an establishment the size of a Luby's cafeteria required to have armed security?

Sorry I dont think the answer to that is so cut and dried as you might make it out to be at first blush.

(08-06-2019 02:33 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:  

(08-06-2019 02:08 PM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(08-06-2019 02:01 PM)Tomball Owl Wrote:  

(08-06-2019 01:55 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(08-06-2019 01:37 PM)Tomball Owl Wrote:  Wow. That’s not good.

I found this on police response time.

“Allen said his department received initial reports of the shooting at 10:39 a.m. and first responders arrived six minutes later. Police asked people to stay away from the area and to look for missing family members at a school being used as a reunification area. El Paso Police Sgt. Enrique Carrillo told reporters shortly before 1 p.m. that one person was in custody and there was no longer an "imminent threat" to the area.”

https://www.foxnews.com/us/el-paso-walma...-allen.amp

Less than a minute in Dayton, 6 minutes later in El Paso. Even a minute would seem like an eternity in such a situation.

I believe the Dayton shooting happened in a popular going out area, at night, where bouncers and cops were numerous.

So I wouldn't use the response times to compare the quality of the two departments given the circumstances of places/times.

And Walmart in El Paso on tax-free day was obviously a "popular going out area" where security and cops should have been present and numerous.

Wow. That seems pretty problematic. I wonder if Walmart will be subject to any lawsuits for what seems like incredibly inadequate (? zero) security.

I dont think there is any question over suits -- anyone can sue anyone else for anything.

The issue is whether Walmart is liable. Do you think they were negligent in not having armed security? If so, what size of company is 'required' to provide armed security? In your mind, is, say, an establishment the size of a Luby's cafeteria required to have armed security?

Sorry I dont think the answer to that is so cut and dried as you might make it out to be at first blush.

Cut and dried? I was openly wondering if this was going to be an issue. Per my tone I would have thought it clear that I DON'T KNOW what the standard is for providing security.

(08-06-2019 02:33 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:  

(08-06-2019 02:08 PM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(08-06-2019 02:01 PM)Tomball Owl Wrote:  

(08-06-2019 01:55 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(08-06-2019 01:37 PM)Tomball Owl Wrote:  Wow. That’s not good.

I found this on police response time.

“Allen said his department received initial reports of the shooting at 10:39 a.m. and first responders arrived six minutes later. Police asked people to stay away from the area and to look for missing family members at a school being used as a reunification area. El Paso Police Sgt. Enrique Carrillo told reporters shortly before 1 p.m. that one person was in custody and there was no longer an "imminent threat" to the area.”

https://www.foxnews.com/us/el-paso-walma...-allen.amp

Less than a minute in Dayton, 6 minutes later in El Paso. Even a minute would seem like an eternity in such a situation.

I believe the Dayton shooting happened in a popular going out area, at night, where bouncers and cops were numerous.

So I wouldn't use the response times to compare the quality of the two departments given the circumstances of places/times.

And Walmart in El Paso on tax-free day was obviously a "popular going out area" where security and cops should have been present and numerous.

Wow. That seems pretty problematic. I wonder if Walmart will be subject to any lawsuits for what seems like incredibly inadequate (? zero) security.

I dont think there is any question over suits -- anyone can sue anyone else for anything.

The issue is whether Walmart is liable. Do you think they were negligent in not having armed security? If so, what size of company is 'required' to provide armed security? In your mind, is, say, an establishment the size of a Luby's cafeteria required to have armed security?

Sorry I dont think the answer to that is so cut and dried as you might make it out to be at first blush.

I'm in the same boat. Not sure why Tomball thinks a Wal-Mart on tax free day needs the same type of security presence as a popular bar area on a Saturday night. The key isn't that it was an area where a lot of people congregate, but an area where a lot of drunk/under the influence people congregate.

I would understand if Wal-Mart positioned a security guard to deter thefts on a busy day. But I wouldn't expect that security guard to be armed.

(08-06-2019 03:38 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(08-06-2019 02:33 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:  

(08-06-2019 02:08 PM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(08-06-2019 02:01 PM)Tomball Owl Wrote:  

(08-06-2019 01:55 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  I believe the Dayton shooting happened in a popular going out area, at night, where bouncers and cops were numerous.

So I wouldn't use the response times to compare the quality of the two departments given the circumstances of places/times.

And Walmart in El Paso on tax-free day was obviously a "popular going out area" where security and cops should have been present and numerous.

Wow. That seems pretty problematic. I wonder if Walmart will be subject to any lawsuits for what seems like incredibly inadequate (? zero) security.

I dont think there is any question over suits -- anyone can sue anyone else for anything.

The issue is whether Walmart is liable. Do you think they were negligent in not having armed security? If so, what size of company is 'required' to provide armed security? In your mind, is, say, an establishment the size of a Luby's cafeteria required to have armed security?

Sorry I dont think the answer to that is so cut and dried as you might make it out to be at first blush.

I'm in the same boat. Not sure why Tomball thinks a Wal-Mart on tax free day needs the same type of security presence as a popular bar area on a Saturday night. The key isn't that it was an area where a lot of people congregate, but an area where a lot of drunk/under the influence people congregate.

I would understand if Wal-Mart positioned a security guard to deter thefts on a busy day. But I wouldn't expect that security guard to be armed.

Umm, because there are more people in a confined area?

So I guess you ate saying security should only be provided inareas that serve alcohol? Got it! Ban alcohol.

Oh wait....we tried that with less than outstanding results.

(08-06-2019 03:32 PM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(08-06-2019 02:33 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:  

(08-06-2019 02:08 PM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(08-06-2019 02:01 PM)Tomball Owl Wrote:  

(08-06-2019 01:55 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  I believe the Dayton shooting happened in a popular going out area, at night, where bouncers and cops were numerous.

So I wouldn't use the response times to compare the quality of the two departments given the circumstances of places/times.

And Walmart in El Paso on tax-free day was obviously a "popular going out area" where security and cops should have been present and numerous.

Wow. That seems pretty problematic. I wonder if Walmart will be subject to any lawsuits for what seems like incredibly inadequate (? zero) security.

I dont think there is any question over suits -- anyone can sue anyone else for anything.

The issue is whether Walmart is liable. Do you think they were negligent in not having armed security? If so, what size of company is 'required' to provide armed security? In your mind, is, say, an establishment the size of a Luby's cafeteria required to have armed security?

Sorry I dont think the answer to that is so cut and dried as you might make it out to be at first blush.

Cut and dried? I was openly wondering if this was going to be an issue. Per my tone I would have thought it clear that I DON'T KNOW what the standard is for providing security.

Fair enough. I keyed off the "what seems like incredibly inadequate" --- even with the (?) you still state that in your mind it "seems ... incredibly inadequate" and it seemed that you are looking for justification for that preliminary stance.

-----------------

Here is the outline for liability:

1. Does Walmart have a duty to its customers to provide for their safety against lone-wolf deranged gunmen?

2. Did Walmart breach their duty, or did they exercise reasonable care in that duty?

3. Is the breach of that duty a 'but for' reason the lone deranged gunman stormed the store?

4. Is it reasonably foreseeable to Walmart that a lone wolf deranged gunman would storm a store? That store?

Given the paucity of lone wold deranged gunmen assaulting large stores, then 1) may not exist. If that duty existed, would one armed guard been sufficient to stop the invasion? If not, then 3) fails.

The strongest one is 4); to my knowledge such attacks have taken place at ICE offices, Republican baseball practices, schools, and nightclubs. I think it is reasonably foreseeable for any owner of a night club over 200 guests that such an event could take place. Perhaps not for a retail superstore prior to the this event.

One cannot argue that going forward, 4) will exist for big box store owners. But that is an after the fact determination. Negligence is based on an 'at the time' standard, so to speak.

But the rule of Monty Python should be adhered to: "No one *expects* the Spanish Inquisition"

To me, the difference between one minute and six minutes is this: five minutes the shooter was unimpeded. The shootings in both cases stopped when other guns arrived.

I just wonder how many would have been saved if somebody in the (gun free zone) Wal-Mart had a gun and engaged the shooter.

(08-06-2019 04:02 PM)Tomball Owl Wrote:  

(08-06-2019 03:38 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(08-06-2019 02:33 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:  

(08-06-2019 02:08 PM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(08-06-2019 02:01 PM)Tomball Owl Wrote:  And Walmart in El Paso on tax-free day was obviously a "popular going out area" where security and cops should have been present and numerous.

Wow. That seems pretty problematic. I wonder if Walmart will be subject to any lawsuits for what seems like incredibly inadequate (? zero) security.

I dont think there is any question over suits -- anyone can sue anyone else for anything.

The issue is whether Walmart is liable. Do you think they were negligent in not having armed security? If so, what size of company is 'required' to provide armed security? In your mind, is, say, an establishment the size of a Luby's cafeteria required to have armed security?

Sorry I dont think the answer to that is so cut and dried as you might make it out to be at first blush.

I'm in the same boat. Not sure why Tomball thinks a Wal-Mart on tax free day needs the same type of security presence as a popular bar area on a Saturday night. The key isn't that it was an area where a lot of people congregate, but an area where a lot of drunk/under the influence people congregate.

I would understand if Wal-Mart positioned a security guard to deter thefts on a busy day. But I wouldn't expect that security guard to be armed.

Umm, because there are more people in a confined area?

So I guess you ate saying security should only be provided in areas that serve alcohol? Got it! Ban alcohol.

Oh wait....we tried that with less than outstanding results.

Tomball, it may very well be that the 'rule for negligence' will be from this point going forward: if you have over X people in a building you need an armed guard present.

I dont think big box stores were at the top of the list for 'really really really viable targets' --- this really seemed to be isolated to schools, churches, a cinema or so, and one outlier nightclub (and the beginner episodes at Mickey Ds and Lubys 40 years ago).

In hindsight, a big box store is a big fat juicy target --- but to be honest I was somewhat somewhat floored at the 'changeup' that the gunman threw.

But looking at something through the eyes of what one just learns isnt the basis for negligence. It is that is it reasonably foreseeable that an event will occur; not that an event did occur that taught one something new.

(08-06-2019 04:49 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  To me, the difference between one minute and six minutes is this: five minutes the shooter was unimpeded. The shootings in both cases stopped when other guns arrived.

I just wonder how many would have been saved if somebody in the (gun free zone) Wal-Mart had a gun and engaged the shooter.

There were actually a couple of armed GIs in the Walmart, iirc.

I read something several months ago:

The average casualty number for cops having to get to the scene for these events is something like 13.

The average casualty number for an event stopped by 'self-help' is something like 4.

I never said Walmart was negligent. I’m just surprised, that there wasn’t security or a visible police presence in the area when officials had to know there would be large crowds. Heck, there is armed security at Rice games with fewer people.

And there have been such incidents in shopping malls to add to Tang’s list of “viable targets”, so a big box store should not have been outside the thinking of those responsible for security planning.

(08-06-2019 04:02 PM)Tomball Owl Wrote:  

(08-06-2019 03:38 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(08-06-2019 02:33 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:  

(08-06-2019 02:08 PM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(08-06-2019 02:01 PM)Tomball Owl Wrote:  And Walmart in El Paso on tax-free day was obviously a "popular going out area" where security and cops should have been present and numerous.

Wow. That seems pretty problematic. I wonder if Walmart will be subject to any lawsuits for what seems like incredibly inadequate (? zero) security.

I dont think there is any question over suits -- anyone can sue anyone else for anything.

The issue is whether Walmart is liable. Do you think they were negligent in not having armed security? If so, what size of company is 'required' to provide armed security? In your mind, is, say, an establishment the size of a Luby's cafeteria required to have armed security?

Sorry I dont think the answer to that is so cut and dried as you might make it out to be at first blush.

I'm in the same boat. Not sure why Tomball thinks a Wal-Mart on tax free day needs the same type of security presence as a popular bar area on a Saturday night. The key isn't that it was an area where a lot of people congregate, but an area where a lot of drunk/under the influence people congregate.

I would understand if Wal-Mart positioned a security guard to deter thefts on a busy day. But I wouldn't expect that security guard to be armed.

Umm, because there are more people in a confined area?

So I guess you ate saying security should only be provided inareas that serve alcohol? Got it! Ban alcohol.

Oh wait....we tried that with less than outstanding results.

You do know we severely restrict the consumption and production of alcohol, including limiting where it can be sold, when it can sold, how old you can be to buy it, when you can use it, etc, right? Not all regulations surrounding it are great (I personally believe we would benefit from a lower drinking age), but certain regulations make sense. Like how people can be held personally liable if they overserve someone.