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OptimisticOwl Offline
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Post: #7781
RE: Trump Administration
https://www.foxnews.com/politics/officia...the-public

“They are not drinking out of the toilet—no Border Patrol agent is going to make anyone drink out of the toilet,” former U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) director Tom Homan said on Fox News' “America’s Newsroom” Tuesday. “It’s just ridiculous on its face.”
07-02-2019 10:20 PM
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OptimisticOwl Offline
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Post: #7782
RE: Trump Administration
If Trumps wins re-election in 2020, can you imagine the level of violence that will spark?

All that worrying about right-wingers with guns, and it is going to be left-wingers with concrete milkshakes that will end our democracy.
(This post was last modified: 07-02-2019 10:30 PM by OptimisticOwl.)
07-02-2019 10:29 PM
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westsidewolf1989 Offline
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Post: #7783
RE: Trump Administration
(07-02-2019 10:20 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  https://www.foxnews.com/politics/officia...the-public

“They are not drinking out of the toilet—no Border Patrol agent is going to make anyone drink out of the toilet,” former U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) director Tom Homan said on Fox News' “America’s Newsroom” Tuesday. “It’s just ridiculous on its face.”

One of my favorite parts of the article was the Twitter post from Joaquin Castro of a video of the shower at one of the detention facilities. I’m assuming his point was to act like this shower was somehow inhumane, but all it looked like to me was a shower in an RV I once stayed in. Not roomy, but assuming the water flows properly, it gets the job done. I’ve seen more cramped showers in European apartments on HGTV’s International Househunters.

At this point, I just assume that at least 50 percent of things that come out of AOC’s mouth, like Trump’s, are just fabrications or misinformation.
07-02-2019 11:14 PM
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OptimisticOwl Offline
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Post: #7784
RE: Trump Administration
(07-02-2019 11:14 PM)westsidewolf1989 Wrote:  
(07-02-2019 10:20 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  https://www.foxnews.com/politics/officia...the-public

“They are not drinking out of the toilet—no Border Patrol agent is going to make anyone drink out of the toilet,” former U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) director Tom Homan said on Fox News' “America’s Newsroom” Tuesday. “It’s just ridiculous on its face.”

One of my favorite parts of the article was the Twitter post from Joaquin Castro of a video of the shower at one of the detention facilities. I’m assuming his point was to act like this shower was somehow inhumane, but all it looked like to me was a shower in an RV I once stayed in. Not roomy, but assuming the water flows properly, it gets the job done. I’ve seen more cramped showers in European apartments on HGTV’s International Househunters.

At this point, I just assume that at least 50 percent of things that come out of AOC’s mouth, like Trump’s, are just fabrications or misinformation.

Ah, but the difference is in the other 50%. Hers is the Green New Deal and the world ending in 12 years. His: tax cuts, trade deals, and border security.

When I saw Castro's picture of the shower, three words went through my mind: "Oh, the humanity!"

In 30+ years of traveling in Mexico, I often saw much worse in the motels at which I stayed. And the poor people, the ones who are trying to relocate, often had much worse.
(This post was last modified: 07-03-2019 09:48 AM by OptimisticOwl.)
07-03-2019 09:46 AM
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tanqtonic Offline
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Post: #7785
RE: Trump Administration
A friend of mine noted this last night, and I found it amusing:

Trump now has the left protesting the 4th of July.
(This post was last modified: 07-04-2019 10:38 AM by tanqtonic.)
07-04-2019 10:30 AM
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OptimisticOwl Offline
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Post: #7786
RE: Trump Administration
(07-04-2019 10:30 AM)tanqtonic Wrote:  A friend of mine noted this last night, and I found it amusing:

Trump now has the left protesting the 4th of July.

And disrespecting the Betsy Ross flag.

When did it become unAmerican for Americans to find out how many Americans were living in America?
(This post was last modified: 07-04-2019 10:57 AM by OptimisticOwl.)
07-04-2019 10:56 AM
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OptimisticOwl Offline
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Post: #7787
RE: Trump Administration
A poem by Cowboy Poet Mike Querner:

Thirteen stripes of Red and White,
Fifty stars on a field of blue.
Just strips of cloth,
sewn together,
Is that all I mean to You?
Thirteen stripes,
seven of red and six of white,
Seven of red for the blood
that was shed
To set our country free.
Six of white for the loss of life
That purchased freedom for you and me.


From "I am the flag" by Mike Querner
(This post was last modified: 07-04-2019 11:05 AM by OptimisticOwl.)
07-04-2019 11:03 AM
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Rice93 Offline
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Post: #7788
RE: Trump Administration
(07-04-2019 10:56 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  
(07-04-2019 10:30 AM)tanqtonic Wrote:  A friend of mine noted this last night, and I found it amusing:

Trump now has the left protesting the 4th of July.

And disrespecting the Betsy Ross flag.

When did it become unAmerican for Americans to find out how many Americans were living in America?

What is your view as to why adding this citizenship question to the census is so important to the Trump administration?
07-06-2019 07:25 AM
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tanqtonic Offline
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Post: #7789
RE: Trump Administration
(07-06-2019 07:25 AM)Rice93 Wrote:  
(07-04-2019 10:56 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  
(07-04-2019 10:30 AM)tanqtonic Wrote:  A friend of mine noted this last night, and I found it amusing:

Trump now has the left protesting the 4th of July.

And disrespecting the Betsy Ross flag.

When did it become unAmerican for Americans to find out how many Americans were living in America?

What is your view as to why adding this citizenship question to the census is so important to the Trump administration?

What do you think the mission and job of the census is?

Seems to be kind of one of those 'basic questions', does it not?

Kind of like the question 'how far is Mars from the Earth' would be for NASA, right?
07-06-2019 08:07 AM
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Rice93 Offline
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Post: #7790
RE: Trump Administration
(07-06-2019 08:07 AM)tanqtonic Wrote:  
(07-06-2019 07:25 AM)Rice93 Wrote:  
(07-04-2019 10:56 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  
(07-04-2019 10:30 AM)tanqtonic Wrote:  A friend of mine noted this last night, and I found it amusing:

Trump now has the left protesting the 4th of July.

And disrespecting the Betsy Ross flag.

When did it become unAmerican for Americans to find out how many Americans were living in America?

What is your view as to why adding this citizenship question to the census is so important to the Trump administration?

What do you think the mission and job of the census is?

Seems to be kind of one of those 'basic questions', does it not?

Kind of like the question 'how far is Mars from the Earth' would be for NASA, right?

The Supreme Court did not seem to look at it as the no-brainer that your post suggests.
07-06-2019 08:12 AM
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Post: #7791
RE: Trump Administration
(07-06-2019 08:12 AM)Rice93 Wrote:  
(07-06-2019 08:07 AM)tanqtonic Wrote:  
(07-06-2019 07:25 AM)Rice93 Wrote:  
(07-04-2019 10:56 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  
(07-04-2019 10:30 AM)tanqtonic Wrote:  A friend of mine noted this last night, and I found it amusing:

Trump now has the left protesting the 4th of July.

And disrespecting the Betsy Ross flag.

When did it become unAmerican for Americans to find out how many Americans were living in America?

What is your view as to why adding this citizenship question to the census is so important to the Trump administration?

What do you think the mission and job of the census is?

Seems to be kind of one of those 'basic questions', does it not?

Kind of like the question 'how far is Mars from the Earth' would be for NASA, right?

The Supreme Court did not seem to look at it as the no-brainer that your post suggests.

It's an interesting and unusual case. From my admittedly hasty read of it, the gist of the opinion seemed to be not that the citizenship question is improper in itself, but that the government's stated reason for it was simply not credible to the Justices, and that they were unwilling to uphold an act that would require them to give even pro forma credit to a reason they pretty much knew to be untrue.

My hunch is that the identical census question, instituted by a different administration, could well be upheld.
07-06-2019 08:24 AM
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Post: #7792
RE: Trump Administration
(07-06-2019 08:12 AM)Rice93 Wrote:  
(07-06-2019 08:07 AM)tanqtonic Wrote:  
(07-06-2019 07:25 AM)Rice93 Wrote:  
(07-04-2019 10:56 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  
(07-04-2019 10:30 AM)tanqtonic Wrote:  A friend of mine noted this last night, and I found it amusing:
Trump now has the left protesting the 4th of July.
And disrespecting the Betsy Ross flag.
When did it become unAmerican for Americans to find out how many Americans were living in America?
What is your view as to why adding this citizenship question to the census is so important to the Trump administration?
What do you think the mission and job of the census is?
Seems to be kind of one of those 'basic questions', does it not?
Kind of like the question 'how far is Mars from the Earth' would be for NASA, right?
The Supreme Court did not seem to look at it as the no-brainer that your post suggests.

The Supreme Court gets things wrong sometimes. Ever hear of Dred Scott?
07-06-2019 09:03 AM
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Rice93 Offline
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Post: #7793
RE: Trump Administration
(07-06-2019 09:03 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(07-06-2019 08:12 AM)Rice93 Wrote:  
(07-06-2019 08:07 AM)tanqtonic Wrote:  
(07-06-2019 07:25 AM)Rice93 Wrote:  
(07-04-2019 10:56 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  And disrespecting the Betsy Ross flag.
When did it become unAmerican for Americans to find out how many Americans were living in America?
What is your view as to why adding this citizenship question to the census is so important to the Trump administration?
What do you think the mission and job of the census is?
Seems to be kind of one of those 'basic questions', does it not?
Kind of like the question 'how far is Mars from the Earth' would be for NASA, right?
The Supreme Court did not seem to look at it as the no-brainer that your post suggests.

The Supreme Court gets things wrong sometimes. Ever hear of Dred Scott?

Yes and I have a feeling that I am going to think that they are getting a bunch of things wrong over the next few years.
07-06-2019 10:11 AM
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tanqtonic Offline
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Post: #7794
RE: Trump Administration
(07-06-2019 08:12 AM)Rice93 Wrote:  
(07-06-2019 08:07 AM)tanqtonic Wrote:  
(07-06-2019 07:25 AM)Rice93 Wrote:  
(07-04-2019 10:56 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  
(07-04-2019 10:30 AM)tanqtonic Wrote:  A friend of mine noted this last night, and I found it amusing:

Trump now has the left protesting the 4th of July.

And disrespecting the Betsy Ross flag.

When did it become unAmerican for Americans to find out how many Americans were living in America?

What is your view as to why adding this citizenship question to the census is so important to the Trump administration?

What do you think the mission and job of the census is?

Seems to be kind of one of those 'basic questions', does it not?

Kind of like the question 'how far is Mars from the Earth' would be for NASA, right?

The Supreme Court did not seem to look at it as the no-brainer that your post suggests.

Perhaps you should actually read the base materials before your rhetorical reply.

The section of the Roberts opinion regarding the power to ask the question, the section being unanimously agreed to, concluded
Quote: [the enumeration clause] “permits Congress, and by extension the Secretary, to inquire about citizenship on the census questionnaire.”

Six justices – all but Alito and Gorsuch – joined the next subsection of Roberts’ opinion, in which the court rejected the government’s contention that the Census Act gives Commerce Secretary Ross carte blanche – not subject to review by courts – to decide what questions to include on the census questionnaire. Which in turn set the stage for the final outcome of remanding the case in light of insufficient administrative background and activity.

Thomas, Alito, Gorsuch and Kavanaugh signed on to the next two parts of Roberts’ opinion. In the first, the court reversed two parts of the district court’s ruling that overturned Ross’ decision to add the citizenship question. Roberts and his conservative colleagues also reversed the district court’s ruling that Ross’ decision violated provisions of the Census Act that require the Secretary of Commerce to use administrative records, rather than questions on the census, whenever possible.

The final portion of the Roberts opinion, having 5 votes, said that the process to include the question deviated from the normal administrative procedures. SCOTUS sent the case back not as 'rendered', but as 'remanded', upholding the district court decision to send the case back to the Department of Commerce for it to provide a better explanation.
Quote:“Reasoned decisionmaking calls for an explanation for agency action. What was provided here was more of a distraction.”

Again, I dont suggest Vox or Mother Jones for much of an in-depth explanation.

So actually, it does seem to be as 'much as a no-brainer', especially considering the portions of the decision that stated the Census was not just a headcount function, but emphasized the ability and freedom to use it in an information gathering process.
(This post was last modified: 07-06-2019 10:23 AM by tanqtonic.)
07-06-2019 10:20 AM
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OptimisticOwl Offline
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Post: #7795
RE: Trump Administration
(07-06-2019 07:25 AM)Rice93 Wrote:  
(07-04-2019 10:56 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  
(07-04-2019 10:30 AM)tanqtonic Wrote:  A friend of mine noted this last night, and I found it amusing:

Trump now has the left protesting the 4th of July.

And disrespecting the Betsy Ross flag.

When did it become unAmerican for Americans to find out how many Americans were living in America?

What is your view as to why adding this citizenship question to the census is so important to the Trump administration?

It is important to the Trump Admin/republicans for exactly the same reason NOT having it is important to the DNC/Democrats - supposed electoral advantage.

for example, a higher count in California would result in more seats under Democratic control. a lower count would result in less seats. thats what is being fought over. Neither side is pure in their goals.

Please note that nobody is advocating that illegals should not be counted, not does it change the way seats are apportioned, as that is on population, not citizens. The democrat's case case hinges on illegals being scared to answer.

My opinion, based on 70 years of association with illegals, is balderdash.most illegals do not want to answer the door when a government man comes a-knocking. most don't want to take the time to fill and mail the form. And all of them don't care if the law requires it. so the presence of the question will have little difference. Very few will refuse to be counted who would have agreed without the question.

might as well be a question on indoor plumbing. (I believe that has been done before, with no sggestion it would make rural people less likely to answer)

even if say California or Texas gets extra seats, it just means Delaware or Nebraska gets less. moot point, IMO.

So, the only point I can see is that if the question is permitted, we will know better how many illegals we have. Republicans want to know and Democrats do not want Republicans to know. Why? you tell me.
(This post was last modified: 07-06-2019 10:34 AM by OptimisticOwl.)
07-06-2019 10:21 AM
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tanqtonic Offline
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Post: #7796
RE: Trump Administration
(07-06-2019 10:11 AM)Rice93 Wrote:  
(07-06-2019 09:03 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(07-06-2019 08:12 AM)Rice93 Wrote:  
(07-06-2019 08:07 AM)tanqtonic Wrote:  
(07-06-2019 07:25 AM)Rice93 Wrote:  What is your view as to why adding this citizenship question to the census is so important to the Trump administration?
What do you think the mission and job of the census is?
Seems to be kind of one of those 'basic questions', does it not?
Kind of like the question 'how far is Mars from the Earth' would be for NASA, right?
The Supreme Court did not seem to look at it as the no-brainer that your post suggests.

The Supreme Court gets things wrong sometimes. Ever hear of Dred Scott?

Yes and I have a feeling that I am going to think that they are getting a bunch of things wrong over the next few years.

I am sure that most progressives who pray to the demigod of the living constitution share your viewpoint.
(This post was last modified: 07-06-2019 10:33 AM by tanqtonic.)
07-06-2019 10:24 AM
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Post: #7797
RE: Trump Administration
(07-06-2019 10:21 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  
(07-06-2019 07:25 AM)Rice93 Wrote:  
(07-04-2019 10:56 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  
(07-04-2019 10:30 AM)tanqtonic Wrote:  A friend of mine noted this last night, and I found it amusing:

Trump now has the left protesting the 4th of July.

And disrespecting the Betsy Ross flag.

When did it become unAmerican for Americans to find out how many Americans were living in America?

What is your view as to why adding this citizenship question to the census is so important to the Trump administration?

It is important to the Trump Admin/republicans for exatly the same reason NOT having it is important to the DNC/Democrats - supposed electoral advantage.

for example, a higher in California would result in more seats under Democratic control. a lower count would result in less seats. thats what is being fought over. Neither side is pure in their goals.

Please note that nobody is advocating that illegals should not be counted, not does it chamge the way seats are apportioned, as that is on population, not citizens. The democrat's case case hinges on illegals being scared to answer.

My opinion, based on 70 years of association with illegals, is balderdash.most illegals do not want to answer the door when a government man comes a-knocking. most don't want to take the time to fill and mail the form. And all of them don't care if the law requires it. so the presence of the question will have little difference. Very few will refuse to be counted who would agree without the question.

might as well be a question on indoor plumbing.

even if say California or Texas gets extra seats, it just means Delaware or Nebraska gets less. moot point, IMO.

So, the only point I can see is that if the question is permitted, we will know better how many illegals we have. Republicans want to know and Democrats do not want Republicans to know.

FIFY:
Democrats do not want Republicans anyone to know.

By advocating the position that the question should not be included, they are expressly advocating the suppression of that information. Period. Full Stop. For everyone, not just Republicans.
(This post was last modified: 07-06-2019 10:32 AM by tanqtonic.)
07-06-2019 10:27 AM
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Owl 69/70/75 Offline
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Post: #7798
RE: Trump Administration
(07-06-2019 10:20 AM)tanqtonic Wrote:  
(07-06-2019 08:12 AM)Rice93 Wrote:  
(07-06-2019 08:07 AM)tanqtonic Wrote:  What do you think the mission and job of the census is?
Seems to be kind of one of those 'basic questions', does it not?
Kind of like the question 'how far is Mars from the Earth' would be for NASA, right?
The Supreme Court did not seem to look at it as the no-brainer that your post suggests.
Perhaps you should actually read the base materials before your rhetorical reply.
...
SCOTUS sent the case back not as 'rendered', but as 'remanded', upholding the district court decision to send the case back to the Department of Commerce for it to provide a better explanation.
Quote:“Reasoned decisionmaking calls for an explanation for agency action. What was provided here was more of a distraction.”
...
So actually, it does seem to be as 'much as a no-brainer', especially considering the portions of the decision that stated the Census was not just a headcount function, but emphasized the ability and freedom to use it in an information gathering process.

"Remanded" rather than "rendered" is a very significant distinction that probably most non-lawyers don't understand. Commerce gets to retry with a better explanation.

I haven't done much research on the legal reasoning here, so my off-the-top-of-my-head thoughts may be off base. But it seems to me that if Commerce gets to ask all manner and sorts of other questions for information-gathering, they should be able to come up with a better justification for what seems on its face to be a reasonable and relevant question. I think some justices took offense with what appears to have been Commerce's assertion that "it's our form, we get to do what we want with it."

I have to believe that the surfacing of the Hofeller computer files played a role in the decision. I would suggest that such information is hearsay, not subject to verification by cross-examination, and would not be inclined to grant it the dying man exemption. If the district court has to make a decision without considering that information, it may be hard for opponents to get the result they want.
07-06-2019 10:39 AM
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Owl 69/70/75 Offline
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Post: #7799
RE: Trump Administration
(07-06-2019 10:27 AM)tanqtonic Wrote:  
(07-06-2019 10:21 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  So, the only point I can see is that if the question is permitted, we will know better how many illegals we have. Republicans want to know and Democrats do not want Republicans to know.
FIFY:
Democrats do not want Republicans anyone to know.
By advocating the position that the question should not be included, they are expressly advocating the suppression of that information. Period. Full Stop. For everyone, not just Republicans.

Agree with your FIFY, and with your method of communicating it.

Democrats are very clearly staking out their position on this issue. They see a steady flow of illegal aliens as a steady supply of future democrat voters. Get 'em in (catch and release), get 'em situated (sanctuary cities), get 'em hooked on welfare (adding them to welfare rolls). All that's left is giving them the vote (and in some jurisdictions that is already underway). Then you have the full realization of, "Keep 'em dumb, keep 'em poor, keep 'em dependent on handouts, and you will keep 'em voting democrat."
07-06-2019 10:43 AM
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OptimisticOwl Offline
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Post: #7800
RE: Trump Administration
(07-06-2019 10:27 AM)tanqtonic Wrote:  
(07-06-2019 10:21 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  
(07-06-2019 07:25 AM)Rice93 Wrote:  
(07-04-2019 10:56 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  
(07-04-2019 10:30 AM)tanqtonic Wrote:  A friend of mine noted this last night, and I found it amusing:

Trump now has the left protesting the 4th of July.

And disrespecting the Betsy Ross flag.

When did it become unAmerican for Americans to find out how many Americans were living in America?

What is your view as to why adding this citizenship question to the census is so important to the Trump administration?

It is important to the Trump Admin/republicans for exatly the same reason NOT having it is important to the DNC/Democrats - supposed electoral advantage.

for example, a higher in California would result in more seats under Democratic control. a lower count would result in less seats. thats what is being fought over. Neither side is pure in their goals.

Please note that nobody is advocating that illegals should not be counted, not does it chamge the way seats are apportioned, as that is on population, not citizens. The democrat's case case hinges on illegals being scared to answer.

My opinion, based on 70 years of association with illegals, is balderdash.most illegals do not want to answer the door when a government man comes a-knocking. most don't want to take the time to fill and mail the form. And all of them don't care if the law requires it. so the presence of the question will have little difference. Very few will refuse to be counted who would agree without the question.

might as well be a question on indoor plumbing.

even if say California or Texas gets extra seats, it just means Delaware or Nebraska gets less. moot point, IMO.

So, the only point I can see is that if the question is permitted, we will know better how many illegals we have. Republicans want to know and Democrats do not want Republicans to know.

FIFY:
Democrats do not want Republicans anyone to know.

By advocating the position that the question should not be included, they are expressly advocating the suppression of that information. Period. Full Stop. For everyone, not just Republicans.


For electoral advantage.


Maybe if we were to learn we have 20 million illegals instead of 11 million, some opinions would change. If we learn in 2020 we have X, and in 2030 we learn we have 2X, opinions might change.

The Dems have taken the position of the pro-illegals party. If more people became anti-illegals, that could hurt them. electorally..
07-06-2019 10:46 AM
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