(05-07-2019 09:38 AM)tanqtonic Wrote:  

(05-07-2019 05:40 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  And as I have said before, there are plenty of people on the right who denounce the KKK/Nazi/white supremacist element. I don't see many on the left denouncing Antifa. I see far more defending or excusing them.

Maybe not 'defending' them -- I don't think I have seen anyone in mainstream liberal/progressive side (even as far as the left has moved and the 'mainstream' has correspondingly tracked to what was once 'radical left' territory) say "Yay, go Antifa, knock some heads".
And I don't see a full excuse in that vein either.
I do see a full court press that seems to say 'our thugs who knock the fk out the other side are coming from a better place and thus relatively 'better' than those others'.

I pretty much see that as excusing them, at minimum, if not defending them.

(05-07-2019 09:35 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  Are you following all candidates that closely? The only comments I remember hearing were Pelosi bashing Antifa.

You mean the grudging statement that had to be dragged out of her several days after the Berkeley violence, after other statements that may very well have inspired violence?

And I agree with you, I haven't heard anything from anyone else on the left.

(05-07-2019 09:43 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(05-07-2019 09:38 AM)tanqtonic Wrote:  

(05-07-2019 05:40 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  And as I have said before, there are plenty of people on the right who denounce the KKK/Nazi/white supremacist element. I don't see many on the left denouncing Antifa. I see far more defending or excusing them.

Maybe not 'defending' them -- I don't think I have seen anyone in mainstream liberal/progressive side (even as far as the left has moved and the 'mainstream' has correspondingly tracked to what was once 'radical left' territory) say "Yay, go Antifa, knock some heads".
And I don't see a full excuse in that vein either.
I do see a full court press that seems to say 'our thugs who knock the fk out the other side are coming from a better place and thus relatively 'better' than those others'.

I pretty much see that as excusing them, at minimum, if not defending them.

I would label it as a relative partial justification. Perhaps that is me parsing linguistic hairs as I am accused of occasionally(?).

(05-07-2019 09:53 AM)tanqtonic Wrote:  

(05-07-2019 09:43 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(05-07-2019 09:38 AM)tanqtonic Wrote:  

(05-07-2019 05:40 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  And as I have said before, there are plenty of people on the right who denounce the KKK/Nazi/white supremacist element. I don't see many on the left denouncing Antifa. I see far more defending or excusing them.

Maybe not 'defending' them -- I don't think I have seen anyone in mainstream liberal/progressive side (even as far as the left has moved and the 'mainstream' has correspondingly tracked to what was once 'radical left' territory) say "Yay, go Antifa, knock some heads".
And I don't see a full excuse in that vein either.
I do see a full court press that seems to say 'our thugs who knock the fk out the other side are coming from a better place and thus relatively 'better' than those others'.

I pretty much see that as excusing them, at minimum, if not defending them.

I would label it as a relative partial justification. Perhaps that is me parsing linguistic hairs as I am accused of occasionally(?).

And I would say look for relative partial justification in the dictionary and you'll see a picture of excusing.

Regardless, I think we agree that democrats get a lot more leeway with Antifa than republicans do with the far right.

(05-07-2019 09:53 AM)tanqtonic Wrote:  

(05-07-2019 09:43 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(05-07-2019 09:38 AM)tanqtonic Wrote:  

(05-07-2019 05:40 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  And as I have said before, there are plenty of people on the right who denounce the KKK/Nazi/white supremacist element. I don't see many on the left denouncing Antifa. I see far more defending or excusing them.

Maybe not 'defending' them -- I don't think I have seen anyone in mainstream liberal/progressive side (even as far as the left has moved and the 'mainstream' has correspondingly tracked to what was once 'radical left' territory) say "Yay, go Antifa, knock some heads".
And I don't see a full excuse in that vein either.
I do see a full court press that seems to say 'our thugs who knock the fk out the other side are coming from a better place and thus relatively 'better' than those others'.

I pretty much see that as excusing them, at minimum, if not defending them.

I would label it as a relative partial justification. Perhaps that is me parsing linguistic hairs as I am accused of occasionally(?).

And I would say look for relative partial justification in the dictionary and you'll see a picture of excusing.

Regardless, I think we agree that democrats get a lot more leeway with Antifa than republicans do with the far right.

My bottom line. My father and his generation fought a world war against the swastika. My generation and I fought a cold war against the hammer and sickle. We won both. Now is no time to give in to either. I reject both.

(05-07-2019 08:07 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(05-07-2019 08:01 AM)Rice93 Wrote:  This is due to the fact that (correctly or incorrectly) the general view of antifa is "a bunch of silly young people fighting Nazis". I don't believe that the view of them is that they are primarily composed of violent Marxists. You can argue if this is willful ignorance or not...

I think it is intentional misleading.

Quote:Therefore it certainly doesn't seem to rise anywhere near the level of the KKK/white separatists/etc.

Wow.

Sorry... quick typing before work. I meant that the general perception is that it doesn't rise to the level (based on my first paragraph)... not that I am agreeing with that notion.

(05-07-2019 10:07 AM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(05-07-2019 08:07 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(05-07-2019 08:01 AM)Rice93 Wrote:  This is due to the fact that (correctly or incorrectly) the general view of antifa is "a bunch of silly young people fighting Nazis". I don't believe that the view of them is that they are primarily composed of violent Marxists. You can argue if this is willful ignorance or not...

I think it is intentional misleading.

Quote:Therefore it certainly doesn't seem to rise anywhere near the level of the KKK/white separatists/etc.

Wow.

Sorry... quick typing before work. I meant that the general perception is that it doesn't rise to the level (based on my first paragraph)... not that I am agreeing with that notion.

Understood. I'm now wow-ing at you, as you seem pretty reasonable on this issue. I'm wow-ing at the general perception. If that's truly the general perception, then we are in way deeper doo-doo than I thought.

(05-07-2019 10:22 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(05-07-2019 10:07 AM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(05-07-2019 08:07 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(05-07-2019 08:01 AM)Rice93 Wrote:  This is due to the fact that (correctly or incorrectly) the general view of antifa is "a bunch of silly young people fighting Nazis". I don't believe that the view of them is that they are primarily composed of violent Marxists. You can argue if this is willful ignorance or not...

I think it is intentional misleading.

Quote:Therefore it certainly doesn't seem to rise anywhere near the level of the KKK/white separatists/etc.

Wow.

Sorry... quick typing before work. I meant that the general perception is that it doesn't rise to the level (based on my first paragraph)... not that I am agreeing with that notion.

Understood. I'm now wow-ing at you, as you seem pretty reasonable on this issue. I'm wow-ing at the general perception. If that's truly the general perception, then we are in way deeper doo-doo than I thought.

I don't know... it seems that Antifa is very much a fringe group that people don't pay too much attention to (or take too seriously). That may turn out to be a mistake. I couldn't even hazard a guess when it comes to #'s comparing membership in Antifa vs. membership in various white nationalist groups.

Have you guys listened to the "It Could Happen Here" podcast?

Antifa leader tied to Democrats

Did they attack those two guys because they were Hispanic or because they were U. S. Marines?

Debate

Sees odd that this is even a subject for debate.

Don Lemon defends Antifa

I guess he thinks the end justifies the means.

(05-07-2019 11:52 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  Antifa leader tied to Democrats

Did they attack those two guys because they were Hispanic or because they were U. S. Marines?

Debate

Sees odd that this is even a subject for debate.

Don Lemon defends Antifa

I guess he thinks the end justifies the means.

One journalist's point of view as a "member" of antifa:

https://medium.com/s/story/what-the-medi...ef6b06b4f4

Democratic hero

Disturbing how he continually emphasizes that she is white.

(05-07-2019 04:33 PM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(05-07-2019 11:52 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  Antifa leader tied to Democrats

Did they attack those two guys because they were Hispanic or because they were U. S. Marines?

Debate

Sees odd that this is even a subject for debate.

Don Lemon defends Antifa

I guess he thinks the end justifies the means.

One journalist's point of view as a "member" of antifa:

https://medium.com/s/story/what-the-medi...ef6b06b4f4

Not a very good defense of what they are and what they do. There were, according to the author, 20-25 white nationalists. Hardly evidence of a large movement. I bet we could get more to an anti-UFO rally. But they needed 1,000 people to protect them from the protectors of the truth.

I wonder what would happen if the 20-25 had their little rally and nobody paid them any attention.

I also am anti-fascist. I oppose fascism. Who doesn't?

But I am also pro-Constitution(Freedom of speech and Freedom of assembly) and anti-violence. I guess that is where we differ. I am not going to beat you up, or knife you, or shoot you, because I don't like what you say.

I think people have a right to peaceful protest and to peacefully state their ideas. I think antifa thinks so, too, as long as antifa approves of the ideas.

I do wear all black quite a lot. But not as a uniform. I am in no army. And I show my face.

You guys can defend Antifa all you want. I have no use for them.

(05-07-2019 04:41 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  Democratic hero

Disturbing how he continually emphasizes that she is white.

Not the way I'd approach counter-protesting this protester. This country could use less of this.

But "Democratic Hero"? Really? That's a little much.

Are you more bothered by this PA State Rep's actions or the President of the United States spreading ridiculous falsehoods about doctors and mothers deciding whether or not to execute their newborn babies? I'm more bothered by the latter.

(05-07-2019 04:53 PM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(05-07-2019 04:41 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  Democratic hero
Disturbing how he continually emphasizes that she is white.

Not the way I'd approach counter-protesting this protester. This country could use less of this.
But "Democratic Hero"? Really? That's a little much.
Are you more bothered by this PA State Rep's actions or the President of the United States spreading ridiculous falsehoods about doctors and mothers deciding whether or not to execute their newborn babies? I'm more bothered by the latter.

The former. Particularly since I don't see the latter as ridiculous falsehoods, Perhaps you could clarify.

(05-07-2019 05:02 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(05-07-2019 04:53 PM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(05-07-2019 04:41 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  Democratic hero
Disturbing how he continually emphasizes that she is white.

Not the way I'd approach counter-protesting this protester. This country could use less of this.
But "Democratic Hero"? Really? That's a little much.
Are you more bothered by this PA State Rep's actions or the President of the United States spreading ridiculous falsehoods about doctors and mothers deciding whether or not to execute their newborn babies? I'm more bothered by the latter.

The former. Particularly since I don't see the latter as ridiculous falsehoods, Perhaps you could clarify.

The former. I heard Governor Northam speak.

"So in this particular example, if a mother is in labor, I can tell you exactly what would happen,” he went on. “The infant would be delivered. The infant would be kept comfortable. The infant would be resuscitated if that’s what the mother and the family desired, and then a discussion would ensue between the physicians and the mother.”

What are they going to discuss? The prospects of the Knicks?

I grew up before RVW. I have seen the problems caused by making abortions illegal.

I also think that child is a human from the moment of conception.

So I do not come down on either the pro-abortion or anti-abortion side. I neither oppose nor defend abortion. I leave that to others. I am not on your side. Nor am I against you.

But I do come down on the side of being allowed to peaceably assemble. Harassing protesters, even if you are a state Rep., is not right.

And now, for something completely different...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K2P86C-1x3o

Have y'all given up on Russia/Trump collusion? Case closed?

Also, it seems to me that if Russia wants to sow maximum discord in 2020, they will come down on the side of the Democrat. Are y'all going to reject all that?

https://twitter.com/LilaGraceRose/status...90507.html

More from the Democratic Hero. Or would SJW fit him better, Lad?

Once again he goes straight to racism, even though one of the girls he targets is not white. Can't stop a man on a mission. The ladies seems very polite to him. Almost like they were...Christians.

Just a very angry man. Reminds me of myself about 50 years ago, when I was in the middle of my atheist period.

(05-07-2019 05:09 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(05-07-2019 05:02 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(05-07-2019 04:53 PM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(05-07-2019 04:41 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  Democratic hero
Disturbing how he continually emphasizes that she is white.

Not the way I'd approach counter-protesting this protester. This country could use less of this.
But "Democratic Hero"? Really? That's a little much.
Are you more bothered by this PA State Rep's actions or the President of the United States spreading ridiculous falsehoods about doctors and mothers deciding whether or not to execute their newborn babies? I'm more bothered by the latter.

The former. Particularly since I don't see the latter as ridiculous falsehoods, Perhaps you could clarify.

The former. I heard Governor Northam speak.

"So in this particular example, if a mother is in labor, I can tell you exactly what would happen,” he went on. “The infant would be delivered. The infant would be kept comfortable. The infant would be resuscitated if that’s what the mother and the family desired, and then a discussion would ensue between the physicians and the mother.”

What are they going to discuss? The prospects of the Knicks?

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/trump-...n-execute/

"We put this list of detailed questions to Northam’s office in order to clarify the exact meaning of his remarks to WTOP on 30 January but did not receive a response in time for publication. Vox quoted a spokesperson for Northam as saying that the governor’s comments were “absolutely not” a reference to infanticide but rather “focused on the tragic and extremely rare case in which a woman with a nonviable pregnancy or severe abnormalities went into labor.” Also, according to NBC News, a spokesperson for Northam “disputed [President Trump’s] characterization” of his comments but did not provide any further clarifying details.

It’s clear that Northam did not “state he would execute a baby after birth,” as Trump claimed he did. However, his remarks did lack precision and clarity of meaning to the extent that they raised reasonable questions about what exactly he was proposing or advocating. For those reasons, we issue a verdict of “Mostly False.”

Quote:But I do come down on the side of being allowed to peaceably assemble. Harassing protesters, even if you are a state Rep., is not right.

Agree.

(05-07-2019 05:02 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(05-07-2019 04:53 PM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(05-07-2019 04:41 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  Democratic hero
Disturbing how he continually emphasizes that she is white.

Not the way I'd approach counter-protesting this protester. This country could use less of this.
But "Democratic Hero"? Really? That's a little much.
Are you more bothered by this PA State Rep's actions or the President of the United States spreading ridiculous falsehoods about doctors and mothers deciding whether or not to execute their newborn babies? I'm more bothered by the latter.

The former. Particularly since I don't see the latter as ridiculous falsehoods, Perhaps you could clarify.

I think this former NICU nurse said it best regarding Democrat legislation "allowing execution of babies":

https://rewire.news/article/2019/04/30/i...ore-wrong/

(05-07-2019 08:23 PM)Rice93 Wrote:  It’s clear that Northam did not “state he would execute a baby after birth,” as Trump claimed he did. However, his remarks did lack precision and clarity of meaning to the extent that they raised reasonable questions about what exactly he was proposing or advocating. For those reasons, we issue a verdict of “Mostly False.”

Umm, I'd say it's pretty clear that Northam stated precisely that. Sounds to me like you're not willing to defend that, and are looking for some way around it. Now, how much he or his staff backtracks from that position in subsequent questioning, and whether that was a misspeak or what he actually intended, are issues that we can discuss. But his direct quote was pretty much stating that he would execute a baby after birth. And I didn't see or hear much imprecision.

For the record, I'm pro-choice, with limitations. But my limitations would not allow anything remotely close to what Northam described in pretty direct words.