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(02-20-2019 07:08 PM)Bronco14 Wrote:  Kill isn’t wrong. Fleck is a very “your entire program was trash before I got here” kind of guy. Rubbed a lot of WMU fans and former players the wrong way, especially when he proceeded to have a 1-11 season his first year. Unsurprising it's rubbing Minnesota program alumni the wrong way too.

That being said, I see an SEC team hiring Fleck from Minnesota in a few years, especially with the Big 10 West being so blah. All it takes is a down year by Wisconsin or Iowa, like we saw this year with Northwestern winning the division. A couple years of that, and Fleck will bolt from his “dream school”.

Kill did the same thing. He talked about rebuilding NIU, just because NIU had a bad record the prior year. But that was due to a boatload of injuries. He didn't rebuild anything. And he didn't win any bowl games or win the MACC either.

(02-21-2019 01:36 PM)Rasser Wrote:  If his formula works so well why hasn’t that translated at Minnesota? He’s proving himself to be a fluke, in all facets including recruiting. He’s finishing the middle of the pack in 247 team rankings every year. I’m thinking there was more to the story with his blowing up here. His model sure doesn’t scale.

It takes time to build a program.

But anyways, regarding our Minnesota/Fleck vs Nebraska/Frost discussion, I guess we will see. Maybe both coaches do well!

In regards to 'blowing up here', few things:
1.) I do think he's a decent coach; however he benefitted HIGHLY from an easy schedule in 2016. Illinois's a joke and would struggle even in the MAC, Georgia Southern took a step back, and Northwestern - while decent - isn't your usual Top 25 Big 10 team MAC teams tend to open with. WMU's best win in 2016 was probably a 9-3 Toledo team, not your Top 25 2-loss Power 5 team other 13-1 G5 teams tend to knock off.

2.) MAC teams share a similar budget, similar facilites, similar program brand recognition, and similar academics. If you can figure out how to separate your program from the others on a recruiting level, it'll give you a massive leg-up. Fleck was able to solve this, and WMU experienced it's best recruiting classes in program history AND MAC history under him. Fleck may not be a good coach, he may have benefitted from an easy schedule in 2016, but one thing was clear: he know how to recruit at a Group of 5 level. I guess I still think he can duplicate this at the P5 level -> All it takes is a couple upsets, and you can flip the recruiting to you.

Minnesota was floundering mid-season last year, resurrected it by beating an injured-slumping Wisconsin in finale and Georgia Tech with a lame duck HC in bowl game.

Those two wins did give Gophers some momentum for '19.

(02-23-2019 08:51 AM)Bronco14 Wrote:  

(02-21-2019 01:36 PM)Rasser Wrote:  If his formula works so well why hasn’t that translated at Minnesota? He’s proving himself to be a fluke, in all facets including recruiting. He’s finishing the middle of the pack in 247 team rankings every year. I’m thinking there was more to the story with his blowing up here. His model sure doesn’t scale.

It takes time to build a program.

But anyways, regarding our Minnesota/Fleck vs Nebraska/Frost discussion, I guess we will see. Maybe both coaches do well!

In regards to 'blowing up here', few things:
1.) I do think he's a decent coach; however he benefitted HIGHLY from an easy schedule in 2016. Illinois's a joke and would struggle even in the MAC, Georgia Southern took a step back, and Northwestern - while decent - isn't your usual Top 25 Big 10 team MAC teams tend to open with. WMU's best win in 2016 was probably a 9-3 Toledo team, not your Top 25 2-loss Power 5 team other 13-1 G5 teams tend to knock off.

2.) MAC teams share a similar budget, similar facilites, similar program brand recognition, and similar academics. If you can figure out how to separate your program from the others on a recruiting level, it'll give you a massive leg-up. Fleck was able to solve this, and WMU experienced it's best recruiting classes in program history AND MAC history under him. Fleck may not be a good coach, he may have benefitted from an easy schedule in 2016, but one thing was clear: he know how to recruit at a Group of 5 level. I guess I still think he can duplicate this at the P5 level -> All it takes is a couple upsets, and you can flip the recruiting to you.

Whether or not the 2016 schedule was "easy" is irrelevant. Bottom-line, WMU won.

Bronco teams have had "easy" schedules in the past and choked. No championships in 30 years (should have won at least one between 2006 and 2008)?! Losing 5 straight to CMU?!

Fleck's Broncos did not choke in 2016, easy schedule or not. Can't say the same about teams - with solid talent - coached by Darnell and Cubit.

Leadership matters.

Fleckmwas here 4 years and our schedules have a tendency to go up and down in terms of difficulty; very tough some years and much more reasonable the next. Fleck got both, and so has Lester. For a while we have been on a cycle where on alternating years we eithe have both NIU and Toledo at home, or both on the road. Because those two teams have consistently been the best programs in the West, that had kind of dictated whether our conference schedule has been hard or reasonable.

Having P5s on the schedule is always going to be a thing, and I think everyone would prefer having Illinois and another marginal B10 or other P5 school every year, but UM and MSU have become a bit of a staple, which provides both opportunity for us to make a mark and set the stage for a big year if we can win, but also it makes sense in terms of having a game so close for fans to attend and keeping travel costs down for the university, while still getting a big payday. Other MAC teams find ways to win these games, and we need to do that too. I still think Syracuse was winnable, and frankly, I don't think that UM is nearly as good advertised.

I watcher Army last year go on the road and take Oklahoma to overtime. WMU should be able to be more competitive against excellent teams too. Difference? Those Army players and coaches truly expected to be more than just competitive against Oklahoma, and frankly I think Fleck and his players believed that when he was here. I honestly think Lester gets too in awe of P5 teams, and that reflects to players.

I like having these big games, but we need to win our share.

(02-23-2019 09:26 AM)MajorHoople Wrote:  Minnesota was floundering mid-season last year, resurrected it by beating an injured-slumping Wisconsin in finale and Georgia Tech with a lame duck HC in bowl game.

Those two wins did give Gophers some momentum for '19.

He’s a one hit wonder. His recruiting is even less than par. 2019 class was 10th.

I’d say his “leadership” if it were so great would be translating at Minnesota like Kills did there. Kill and Claeys left an established program,

Claeys got crossed up backing his players and had to leave, but it was far from in turmoil and they won 9 games and beat WSU in a bowl game. Since then they’re digressing.

(02-23-2019 12:20 PM)Rasser Wrote:  

(02-23-2019 09:26 AM)MajorHoople Wrote:  Minnesota was floundering mid-season last year, resurrected it by beating an injured-slumping Wisconsin in finale and Georgia Tech with a lame duck HC in bowl game.

Those two wins did give Gophers some momentum for '19.

He’s a one hit wonder. His recruiting is even less than par. 2019 class was 10th.

I’d say his “leadership” if it were so great would be translating at Minnesota like Kills did there. Kill and Claeys left an established program,

Claeys got crossed up backing his players and had to leave, but it was far from in turmoil and they won 9 games and beat WSU in a bowl game. Since then they’re digressing.

Still haven't figured out digress vs. regress Randy?

(02-23-2019 12:40 PM)wmubroncopilot Wrote:  

(02-23-2019 12:20 PM)Rasser Wrote:  

(02-23-2019 09:26 AM)MajorHoople Wrote:  Minnesota was floundering mid-season last year, resurrected it by beating an injured-slumping Wisconsin in finale and Georgia Tech with a lame duck HC in bowl game.

Those two wins did give Gophers some momentum for '19.

He’s a one hit wonder. His recruiting is even less than par. 2019 class was 10th.

I’d say his “leadership” if it were so great would be translating at Minnesota like Kills did there. Kill and Claeys left an established program,

Claeys got crossed up backing his players and had to leave, but it was far from in turmoil and they won 9 games and beat WSU in a bowl game. Since then they’re digressing.

Still haven't figured out digress vs. regress Randy?

Right I used the wrong word to describe that Minnesota is getting worse. Who is this Randy, fitz?

Q. How do we know when Fleck is digressing?

A. His lips are moving.

(02-23-2019 08:51 AM)Bronco14 Wrote:  In regards to 'blowing up here', few things:
1.) I do think he's a decent coach; however he benefitted HIGHLY from an easy schedule in 2016. Illinois's a joke and would struggle even in the MAC, Georgia Southern took a step back, and Northwestern - while decent - isn't your usual Top 25 Big 10 team MAC teams tend to open with. WMU's best win in 2016 was probably a 9-3 Toledo team, not your Top 25 2-loss Power 5 team other 13-1 G5 teams tend to knock off.

True, it wasn't murderers row. Although the most remarkable aspect of 2016 was going a whole season without stubbing your toe, even if most of the competition was "meh." Superbowl champs couldn't get by the Lions. Ranked Buffalo Bulls hoops lost a stinker to NIU. Even sweeping the 'creampuffs' is hard to do.

Especially for MAC players whose routines get jacked up once November hits and you have to adjust to oddball and distracting Tuesdays and Wednesdays (one of them a POTUS election night).

We could see the season's pressure building - the rankings, the spotlight, the Cotton Bowl chatter - and it all nearly coming to a head in the MACC. Ohio dancing around loose on the sideline. Our guys stiff as boards. Thank god for Spillane's INT.

(02-23-2019 12:40 PM)wmubroncopilot Wrote:  

(02-23-2019 12:20 PM)Rasser Wrote:  

(02-23-2019 09:26 AM)MajorHoople Wrote:  Minnesota was floundering mid-season last year, resurrected it by beating an injured-slumping Wisconsin in finale and Georgia Tech with a lame duck HC in bowl game.

Those two wins did give Gophers some momentum for '19.

He’s a one hit wonder. His recruiting is even less than par. 2019 class was 10th.

I’d say his “leadership” if it were so great would be translating at Minnesota like Kills did there. Kill and Claeys left an established program,

Claeys got crossed up backing his players and had to leave, but it was far from in turmoil and they won 9 games and beat WSU in a bowl game. Since then they’re digressing.

Still haven't figured out digress vs. regress Randy?

As much as you would like it to be, that's not DB. Trust me.

(02-23-2019 02:09 PM)WMU2013 Wrote:  

(02-23-2019 12:40 PM)wmubroncopilot Wrote:  

(02-23-2019 12:20 PM)Rasser Wrote:  

(02-23-2019 09:26 AM)MajorHoople Wrote:  Minnesota was floundering mid-season last year, resurrected it by beating an injured-slumping Wisconsin in finale and Georgia Tech with a lame duck HC in bowl game.

Those two wins did give Gophers some momentum for '19.

He’s a one hit wonder. His recruiting is even less than par. 2019 class was 10th.

I’d say his “leadership” if it were so great would be translating at Minnesota like Kills did there. Kill and Claeys left an established program,

Claeys got crossed up backing his players and had to leave, but it was far from in turmoil and they won 9 games and beat WSU in a bowl game. Since then they’re digressing.

Still haven't figured out digress vs. regress Randy?

As much as you would like it to be, that's not DB. Trust me.

OK bud

(02-23-2019 02:09 PM)WMU2013 Wrote:  

(02-23-2019 12:40 PM)wmubroncopilot Wrote:  

(02-23-2019 12:20 PM)Rasser Wrote:  

(02-23-2019 09:26 AM)MajorHoople Wrote:  Minnesota was floundering mid-season last year, resurrected it by beating an injured-slumping Wisconsin in finale and Georgia Tech with a lame duck HC in bowl game.

Those two wins did give Gophers some momentum for '19.

He’s a one hit wonder. His recruiting is even less than par. 2019 class was 10th.

I’d say his “leadership” if it were so great would be translating at Minnesota like Kills did there. Kill and Claeys left an established program,

Claeys got crossed up backing his players and had to leave, but it was far from in turmoil and they won 9 games and beat WSU in a bowl game. Since then they’re digressing.

Still haven't figured out digress vs. regress Randy?

As much as you would like it to be, that's not DB. Trust me.

And I'm not brovol either.

(02-23-2019 03:35 PM)brovol Wrote:  

(02-23-2019 02:09 PM)WMU2013 Wrote:  

(02-23-2019 12:40 PM)wmubroncopilot Wrote:  

(02-23-2019 12:20 PM)Rasser Wrote:  

(02-23-2019 09:26 AM)MajorHoople Wrote:  Minnesota was floundering mid-season last year, resurrected it by beating an injured-slumping Wisconsin in finale and Georgia Tech with a lame duck HC in bowl game.

Those two wins did give Gophers some momentum for '19.

He’s a one hit wonder. His recruiting is even less than par. 2019 class was 10th.

I’d say his “leadership” if it were so great would be translating at Minnesota like Kills did there. Kill and Claeys left an established program,

Claeys got crossed up backing his players and had to leave, but it was far from in turmoil and they won 9 games and beat WSU in a bowl game. Since then they’re digressing.

Still haven't figured out digress vs. regress Randy?

As much as you would like it to be, that's not DB. Trust me.

And I'm not brovol either.

NTTAWT

I think anyone thinking Minnesota becomes a 12-13 win powerhouse in the B10 West is dreaming. Minnesota would have trouble contending for a MAC championship if they actually had to play at MAC schools every season. I just don't see it given the traditional powerhouse programs in the B10.

Quote:I think Jerry comments were outrageous. He is a putrid coach himself.

You're going way too far. I think Jerry's bitter about having to leave Minnesota, upset at their AD, etc. I think Jerry's statement that PJ doesn't care about the players but Only Himself is way out there. I think PJ really does. He's obsessed and involved to a huge degree. I think PJ doesn't care about the University and the borderline rules/ethics that can get in the way of getting what he wants for HIS team. So yes, there is self-centeredness there -- No Doubt. But I don't think that involves not caring about players at all.

Quote:I think anyone thinking Minnesota becomes a 12-13 win powerhouse in the B10 West is dreaming.

I think you could WAY more easily say "Anyone thinking 9-16 WMU under Fleck will go to a BCS Bowl because they improved and made it to A bowl the 2nd year, is dreaming."

I think Fleck far underestimated the politics and dysfunction at Minnesota. I think it is a program that can be a national power, but it is more dysfunctional there than people realize.

(02-26-2019 08:30 AM)Hoekjeness Wrote:  I think Fleck far underestimated the politics and dysfunction at Minnesota. I think it is a program that can be a national power, but it is more dysfunctional there than people realize.

Amazing Claeys was able to win 9 and his bowl game amidst all that dysfunction. They should have kept him.

(02-26-2019 10:19 AM)Rasser Wrote:  

(02-26-2019 08:30 AM)Hoekjeness Wrote:  I think Fleck far underestimated the politics and dysfunction at Minnesota. I think it is a program that can be a national power, but it is more dysfunctional there than people realize.

Amazing Claeys was able to win 9 and his bowl game amidst all that dysfunction. They should have kept him.

Sure.

And then WMU would still have Fleck.

Think a little before you post.

The man is gone and is somebody else's issue. MAC Champs 2016! Enjoy and move on.

Go Broncos!

(02-27-2019 09:49 AM)GullLake Wrote:  

(02-26-2019 10:19 AM)Rasser Wrote:  

(02-26-2019 08:30 AM)Hoekjeness Wrote:  I think Fleck far underestimated the politics and dysfunction at Minnesota. I think it is a program that can be a national power, but it is more dysfunctional there than people realize.

Amazing Claeys was able to win 9 and his bowl game amidst all that dysfunction. They should have kept him.

Sure.

And then WMU would still have Fleck.

Think a little before you post.

The man is gone and is somebody else's issue. MAC Champs 2016! Enjoy and move on.

Go Broncos!

Hypothetical Phil. Duh.