(11-30-2018 03:19 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(11-30-2018 02:56 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(11-30-2018 02:49 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  I know many of the illegals don't give a damn about being citizens. Their priorities are #1, making some money, and #2, not getting sent back. A guest worker program satisfies those two needs.
In addition, it frees employers to use these people without legal worries of their own.
But it will not get you bunches of votes in elections, if you cannot call the other side racists. Maybe that is why the democrats don't do it.

Why don’t the Republicans do it?

Number one, they can't do it by themselves, and haven't been able to do it by themselves for generations. That takes a majority in both houses, including a filibuster-proof majority in the senate, plus the white house. If every republican voted to make it happen today, it wouldn't happen.

And I think that democrats would rather have the problem to leverage for political purposes than to solve it. Keep 'em dumb, keep 'em poor' keep 'em dependent on handouts, and you'll keep 'em voting democrat. And republicans are too dumb to counter that.

It's still a good question. What I don't understand is why republicans don't stand up for some things. Take my approach--or any reasonable approach--bring it to the floor and have a vote. And tell every republican you better vote yes or else you'll get primaried next time. I have little doubt that Pelosi will do that on a bunch of stuff in the next two years. Republicans don't have that kind of leadership.

Agree with pretty much all of this. I was mainly calling out the silly comment that specifically called out the Dems, when Reps are equally to blame.

I do wonder why Reps have been rather bad at pushing policy out while they're held the House. I too don't doubt that Pelosi will try and push as much legislation to the Senate as possible to force Reps to take a stand on positions. Dems would be smart to do that so they can run on how much work they tried to accomplish when they held control of the House.

(11-30-2018 04:39 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(11-30-2018 04:14 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(11-30-2018 02:56 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(11-30-2018 02:49 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  I know many of the illegals don't give a damn about being citizens. Their priorities are #1, making some money, and #2, not getting sent back. A guest worker program satisfies those two needs.
In addition, it frees employers to use these people without legal worries of their own.
But it will not get you bunches of votes in elections, if you cannot call the other side racists. Maybe that is why the democrats don't do it.

Why don’t the Republicans do it?

over the obstructionist
Dems?
The Dems can paint the Republicans as mean(tear gassing kids) and lacking compassion (they just want a better life for their family) and as racist for enforcing the law.
What is the upside for the Democratic Party to solve this problem? When they had both houses of Congress and the WH in 2009-10, why didn't they address it? No political plus, that's why.

So the Republicans not publicly supporting these types of immigration reform is the Dems fault? Right.
Your original comment is obtuse, to say the least. This is a bipartisan problem, to say the least.

I've told you what I would do if I were the republicans. I don't know why they don't. That's all I can do or say.

I'm very afraid that republican lack of initiative on this and many issues is slowly but surely handing the country to the socialist/communist (yes, I use those terms intentionally) democrat far left. And it irritates the crap out of me.

Stupid party versus evil party. I just wish stupid were not so stupid.

(11-30-2018 04:52 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  Agree with pretty much all of this. I was mainly calling out the silly comment that specifically called out the Dems, when Reps are equally to blame.
I do wonder why Reps have been rather bad at pushing policy out while they're held the House. I too don't doubt that Pelosi will try and push as much legislation to the Senate as possible to force Reps to take a stand on positions. Dems would be smart to do that so they can run on how much work they tried to accomplish when they held control of the House.

I don't see that calling out the D's is any sillier than the comment calling out the R's that it was responding to.

As I've said many times, there are a number of things that I would have pushed if I were leading the republicans. I think the real problem is a lack of leadership. I'll give Ryan a pass, since he clearly got drafted into a job that the did not want. But I don't think McConnell or Boehner could lead a sex addict to a whorehouse.

Democrats have had the perfect situation. They can obstruct everything and blame republicans for not getting anything done. They'd rather have an issue to piss and moan about than let anything be solved. And republicans have failed to hold their feet to the fire. I find it all very disturbing.

(11-30-2018 04:39 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(11-30-2018 04:14 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(11-30-2018 02:56 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(11-30-2018 02:49 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  I know many of the illegals don't give a damn about being citizens. Their priorities are #1, making some money, and #2, not getting sent back. A guest worker program satisfies those two needs.

In addition, it frees employers to use these people without legal worries of their own.

But it will not get you bunches of votes in elections, if you cannot call the other side racists. Maybe that is why the democrats don't do it.

Why don’t the Republicans do it?

over the obstructionist
Dems?

The Dems can paint the Republicans as mean(tear gassing kids) and lacking compassion (they just want a better life for their family) and as racist for enforcing the law.

What is the upside for the Democratic Party to solve this problem? When they had both houses of Congress and the WH in 2009-10, why didn't they address it? No political plus, that's why.

So the Republicans not publicly supporting these types of immigration reform is the Dems fault? Right.

Your original comment is obtuse, to say the least. This is a bipartisan problem, to say the least.

It's bipartisan only in the sense it affects the entire country.

But the Dems are not trying to solve it, because all the angst works in their favor politically.

Why do you think the Republican have not solved this? How does it benefit them to not solve it?

(11-30-2018 05:05 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  .

Democrats have had the perfect situation. They can obstruct everything and blame republicans for not getting anything done. They'd rather have an issue to piss and moan about than let anything be solved.

Democrats don't WANT to solve the problem. They want to use it to run on.

I guess that starting in January. the Democrats in the house will pass guest worker legislation, right? Call me when that happens.

(11-30-2018 06:48 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(11-30-2018 04:39 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(11-30-2018 04:14 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(11-30-2018 02:56 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(11-30-2018 02:49 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  I know many of the illegals don't give a damn about being citizens. Their priorities are #1, making some money, and #2, not getting sent back. A guest worker program satisfies those two needs.

In addition, it frees employers to use these people without legal worries of their own.

But it will not get you bunches of votes in elections, if you cannot call the other side racists. Maybe that is why the democrats don't do it.

Why don’t the Republicans do it?

over the obstructionist
Dems?

The Dems can paint the Republicans as mean(tear gassing kids) and lacking compassion (they just want a better life for their family) and as racist for enforcing the law.

What is the upside for the Democratic Party to solve this problem? When they had both houses of Congress and the WH in 2009-10, why didn't they address it? No political plus, that's why.

So the Republicans not publicly supporting these types of immigration reform is the Dems fault? Right.

Your original comment is obtuse, to say the least. This is a bipartisan problem, to say the least.

It's bipartisan only in the sense it affects the entire country.

But the Dems are not trying to solve it, because all the angst works in their favor politically.

Why do you think the Republican have not solved this? How does it benefit them to not solve it?

It benefits them to solve the problem because it’s a problem. And people who are elected into office are done so to govern. Crazy concept, huh?

But sure, put all the blame on the Dems. Lol.

(11-30-2018 07:14 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  It benefits them to solve the problem because it’s a problem. And people who are elected into office are done so to govern. Crazy concept, huh?
But sure, put all the blame on the Dems. Lol.

No it does not benefit them to solve the problem because they depend on keeping people unhappy to get their votes. Keep 'em dumb, keep 'em poor, keep 'em dependent on handouts, and you'll keep 'em voting democrat.

I truly believe that the democrat leadership would rather keep the ability to run on the problem than solve the problem. I don't think the rank and file believe that, and I would put you in that latter category. I think you would really like to solve it because, as you say, it's a problem. But I think you are being used as useful idiot.

(11-30-2018 07:14 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(11-30-2018 06:48 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(11-30-2018 04:39 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(11-30-2018 04:14 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(11-30-2018 02:56 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  Why don’t the Republicans do it?

over the obstructionist
Dems?

The Dems can paint the Republicans as mean(tear gassing kids) and lacking compassion (they just want a better life for their family) and as racist for enforcing the law.

What is the upside for the Democratic Party to solve this problem? When they had both houses of Congress and the WH in 2009-10, why didn't they address it? No political plus, that's why.

So the Republicans not publicly supporting these types of immigration reform is the Dems fault? Right.

Your original comment is obtuse, to say the least. This is a bipartisan problem, to say the least.

It's bipartisan only in the sense it affects the entire country.

But the Dems are not trying to solve it, because all the angst works in their favor politically.

Why do you think the Republican have not solved this? How does it benefit them to not solve it?

It benefits them to solve the problem because it’s a problem. And people who are elected into office are done so to govern. Crazy concept, huh?

But sure, put all the blame on the Dems. Lol.

What a wonderfully ideal world you live in.

The political equivalent of “follow the money” is who does it benefit to solve the problem?

The Republicans of course. They would love to no longer be vilified as uncaring racists with pictures of crying children.

How does solving the problem help the Democrats? It doesn’t help them a t all.

You have good ideas Lad. Is there some reason the Democrats in Congress could not have the same ideas? Are you smarter than every single one of them?

(11-30-2018 08:42 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(11-30-2018 07:14 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(11-30-2018 06:48 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(11-30-2018 04:39 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(11-30-2018 04:14 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  over the obstructionist
Dems?

The Dems can paint the Republicans as mean(tear gassing kids) and lacking compassion (they just want a better life for their family) and as racist for enforcing the law.

What is the upside for the Democratic Party to solve this problem? When they had both houses of Congress and the WH in 2009-10, why didn't they address it? No political plus, that's why.

So the Republicans not publicly supporting these types of immigration reform is the Dems fault? Right.

Your original comment is obtuse, to say the least. This is a bipartisan problem, to say the least.

It's bipartisan only in the sense it affects the entire country.

But the Dems are not trying to solve it, because all the angst works in their favor politically.

Why do you think the Republican have not solved this? How does it benefit them to not solve it?

It benefits them to solve the problem because it’s a problem. And people who are elected into office are done so to govern. Crazy concept, huh?

But sure, put all the blame on the Dems. Lol.

What a wonderfully ideal world you live in.

The political equivalent of “follow the money” is who does it benefit to solve the problem?

The Republicans of course. They would love to no longer be vilified as uncaring racists with pictures of crying children.

How does solving the problem help the Democrats? It doesn’t help them a t all.

You have good ideas Lad. Is there some reason the Democrats in Congress could not have the same ideas? Are you smarter than every single one of them?

Well, he did go to Rice.

(11-30-2018 08:42 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(11-30-2018 07:14 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  It benefits them to solve the problem because it’s a problem. And people who are elected into office are done so to govern. Crazy concept, huh?
But sure, put all the blame on the Dems. Lol.

What a wonderfully ideal world you live in.
The political equivalent of “follow the money” is who does it benefit to solve the problem?
The Republicans of course. They would love to no longer be vilified as uncaring racists with pictures of crying children.
How does solving the problem help the Democrats? It doesn’t help them a t all.
You have good ideas Lad. Is there some reason the Democrats in Congress could not have the same ideas? Are you smarter than every single one of them?

Lad may not be smarter than every one of them, but he is not as evil. He appears to believe you should solve problems because they are problems. Democrats, or at least their leaders, figure they can get the vote of every one of the downtrodden. So their secret for success is to keep as many downtrodden as possible.

(11-30-2018 11:02 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(11-30-2018 08:42 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(11-30-2018 07:14 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  It benefits them to solve the problem because it’s a problem. And people who are elected into office are done so to govern. Crazy concept, huh?
But sure, put all the blame on the Dems. Lol.

What a wonderfully ideal world you live in.
The political equivalent of “follow the money” is who does it benefit to solve the problem?
The Republicans of course. They would love to no longer be vilified as uncaring racists with pictures of crying children.
How does solving the problem help the Democrats? It doesn’t help them a t all.
You have good ideas Lad. Is there some reason the Democrats in Congress could not have the same ideas? Are you smarter than every single one of them?

Lad may not be smarter than every one of them, but he is not as evil. He appears to believe you should solve problems because they are problems. Democrats, or at least their leaders, figure they can get the vote of every one of the downtrodden. So their secret for success is to keep as many downtrodden as possible.

We are on the same page, Numbers. I do not consider Lad to be evil in the least. But the leaders of his party understand their power comes from winning elections, not from doing right. He likely is smarter than them, IQ wise, but they have the political street smarts. The goal is to win.

The idea of guest workers is not a hard concept to come up with. So if all they care about is helping these poor people make a better life for their families, how come they don’t propose it?

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/get...li=BBnbcA1

(11-30-2018 11:41 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  But the leaders of his party understand their power comes from winning elections, not from doing right.

This.

I guess my problem with republicans is that they can't seem to grasp that. Democrats seem perfectly willing to have the kind of democracy that exists when two wolves and a sheep vote on what's for dinner. I'm counting on republicans to protect me from being the sheep. And they're doing a piss-poor job of it.

With the sad passing of HW this weekend, I’m seeing a lot of posts about how decent of a human he was. His time in politics was before my time, but from clips of him that I’ve seen, it seems like those tales are spot on. Not sure we could see a Republican talk about illegal immigrants the way Bush (and Reagan for that matter) did back in 1980.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YsmgPp_nlok&app=desktop

(12-01-2018 06:52 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  With the sad passing of HW this weekend, I’m seeing a lot of posts about how decent of a human he was. His time in politics was before my time, but from clips of him that I’ve seen, it seems like those tales are spot on. Not sure we could see a Republican talk about illegal immigrants the way Bush (and Reagan for that matter) did back in 1980.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YsmgPp_nlok&app=desktop

yeah, there's been some water under that bridge(pun intended). Things change.

I wonder what the Democrats in 1980 were saying about what Bush and Reagan were saying. I don't remember there being consensus on immigration back then, and if so, why didn't we pass some laws unanimously to take care of the problem? The Democrats controlled both the House and Senate all 12 years of Reagan and Bush41, I believe.

(12-01-2018 06:52 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  With the sad passing of HW this weekend, I’m seeing a lot of posts about how decent of a human he was. His time in politics was before my time, but from clips of him that I’ve seen, it seems like those tales are spot on. Not sure we could see a Republican talk about illegal immigrants the way Bush (and Reagan for that matter) did back in 1980.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YsmgPp_nlok&app=desktop

He may have been the last decent human to be president. I mean, I think W was a decent human, but I think the power was with Cheney, who wasn't. I'm not even inclined to believe that a decent human being could be elected president any more. 2016 would stand for the proposition that a decent human being can't even get the nomination.

(12-01-2018 10:46 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(12-01-2018 06:52 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  With the sad passing of HW this weekend, I’m seeing a lot of posts about how decent of a human he was. His time in politics was before my time, but from clips of him that I’ve seen, it seems like those tales are spot on. Not sure we could see a Republican talk about illegal immigrants the way Bush (and Reagan for that matter) did back in 1980.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YsmgPp_nlok&app=desktop

yeah, there's been some water under that bridge(pun intended). Things change.

I wonder what the Democrats in 1980 were saying about what Bush and Reagan were saying. I don't remember there being consensus on immigration back then, and if so, why didn't we pass some laws unanimously to take care of the problem? The Democrats controlled both the House and Senate all 12 years of Reagan and Bush41, I believe.

You seemingly have forgotten this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigratio...ct_of_1986

(12-02-2018 10:46 AM)tanqtonic Wrote:  

(12-01-2018 10:46 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(12-01-2018 06:52 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  With the sad passing of HW this weekend, I’m seeing a lot of posts about how decent of a human he was. His time in politics was before my time, but from clips of him that I’ve seen, it seems like those tales are spot on. Not sure we could see a Republican talk about illegal immigrants the way Bush (and Reagan for that matter) did back in 1980.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YsmgPp_nlok&app=desktop

yeah, there's been some water under that bridge(pun intended). Things change.

I wonder what the Democrats in 1980 were saying about what Bush and Reagan were saying. I don't remember there being consensus on immigration back then, and if so, why didn't we pass some laws unanimously to take care of the problem? The Democrats controlled both the House and Senate all 12 years of Reagan and Bush41, I believe.

You seemingly have forgotten this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigratio...ct_of_1986

Oh yes, isn’t this the one that is so mean and I compassionate now? Not hiring illegals who just want a better life for their Family? How racist.

Mayb if the Dems would work with the Republicans like in 1986 instead of opposing everything (th3 Resistance), we could do this kind of thing again.

Thanks Lad, for bringing up memories of a time when working together meant something more than surrender.

The funny thing is that in '86, it was touted as a 'one off'. Blanket amnesty.

My guess is that in 2033 (after the new amnesty that all Democrats are pushing for) there will be another wave and furor for another amnesty due to another 'immigration crisis'.

Honestly, I have no issue whatsoever with guest worker plans. But the (left) knee jerk response since fing '82 has been been 'amnesty with a pathway to citizenship' or its more radical cousin of 'open borders with craploads of birthright citizens ensuing'.... has been since '80, and will continue out ad infinitum I guess.

Lad thinks we are horrific since what we see now has never 'ever ever ever ever ever' happened before, but some of us with a little more gray in the hair (and a couple more anecdotes than those far more wetter behind the ears) simply see this **** today as the never-ending chorus (left speaker set on mono mode) for going on forty fing years now. Funny that.

In the meantime, Mueller’s tactics come under fire.

suit filed

Mueller’s team: “Tell is what we want to hear or you will be bankrupted and sent to prison for life.”

Might explain some of the indictments and pleas.

Also, shows they are not “going where the evidence leads them” but more likely trying to make the evidence fit the conclusion they want to reach.