I don't really follow Big Ten basketball that closely, but to me Michigan State jumps out as the class of that conference and it isn't particularly close.

(07-25-2018 11:56 PM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  

(07-25-2018 08:28 PM)gosports1 Wrote:  MSU is a top program but I doubt the average fan realizes they haven't played in the gavitt games yet.(except of course some MSU fans. if the even know the Gavitt games are a thing)

I follow this stuff as closely as anyone and had no idea that Michigan State hasn't played in the Gavitt Games until I saw this thread. My general overarching thought: IDGAF. It's a good early season event that has already put together several non-conference matchups that wouldn't have occurred otherwise (e.g. Maryland-Georgetown, Illinois-DePaul, etc.). The fact that Michigan State hasn't played in it yet is completely and utterly meaningless to the success of the event. This wasn't ever intended to be a comprehensive challenge like the Big Ten/ACC Challenge.

Exactly. Stever20 is desperate to find an angle where the Big East is somehow denigrated or disrespected in the eyes of the college hoops community.

Truth is, it's astonishing that the Big East gets almost-total respect, even though it is not in fact a P5 league.

(07-25-2018 10:19 PM)stever20 Wrote:  

(07-25-2018 04:02 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(07-25-2018 12:15 PM)stever20 Wrote:  

(07-25-2018 12:06 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(07-25-2018 11:45 AM)johnbragg Wrote:  Michigan State? Magic Johnson ain't walking through that door.

Yes, Stever20's posts have reminded us that MSU has actually been slipping lately. E.g., we all think MSU has "made the Final 4 a billion times" under Izzo, but that was last decade not this decade.

1999 - 2010, MSU made the Final 4 six times in those 12 years.

2011 - 2018, MSU has made the Final 4 one time in those 8 years.

Slip ....

ahh yes- the dumb **** fudging of numbers. Why would you go 12 and 8? Oh that's right in 2009 and 2010 Michigan St made the final 4. I could see that even before I looked it up to confirm. So it's 1999-2008 4 times. 2009-18 3 times.

There's no fudging, my numbers are accurate:

MSU had a 12-year period where they want to 6 Final 4s, but since then, they have fallen off pretty dramatically, only one F4 in the past 8 seasons.

Here's another number: Since winning the title in 2000, 18 long years ago, Izzo has only won a single Final 4 game. Two of the three wins he's had in the Final 4 came during the Clinton Administration. He's 1-5 since then.

Like it or not, that's the way it has been.

yeah and in the middle 2 years of the period they went to the final 4 both years. So of course you want to put that in the earlier section when they make your case look better- even though it makes it 12/8 in years. When if you do it 10-10- it looks a whole hell of a lot different. The final 4 years are 99, 00, 01, 05, 09, 10, and 15.

He had a period from 2009-15 where he made the final 4 in 3 of the 7 years.

Michigan St to the casual fan is the Big Ten, even over Michigan. Indiana right now isn't even a thought You can make the case that Michigan St shouldn't be. But the fact is with Izzo they are. You see more stuff about Izzo and Michigan St than the rest of the Big Ten.

You're correct in that depending on how we divide the data, we can paint different pictures. So the best way is to not "divide" anything but just look at it continuously, as via a trend line.

And if we did that, we'd see that MSU's trips to the F4 have in fact sloped dramatically downward since 2010.

Beyond that, though, isn't it pretty stunning that MSU has won just one F4 game since the Clinton administration? I was shocked by that.

Why is it every time I see a thread on the Big East this Stever guy is trying to argue that the conference isn't good or isn't respected?

Im not really asking for answers but, without looking it up how many of us can say which teams our school played in this challenge?. I do know this will be 1st year PC doesn't take part. im not totally sure which schools they played other than Minnesota. I want to say Illinois and ohio st but the 4th I do not remember. Michigan maybe?

I don't think Michigan State will play in next year's Gavitt Games as they're playing in Maui in addition to the Champions Classic. And no, the importance of the Gavitt Games isn't diminished without the presence of the Spartans.

(07-26-2018 03:59 PM)RutgersGuy Wrote:  Why is it every time I see a thread on the Big East this Stever guy is trying to argue that the conference isn't good or isn't respected?

You can read the thread entitled Stever's Thoughts on the Big East forum, but to save you some time, here is the summary:

(07-26-2018 05:45 PM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote:  

(07-26-2018 03:59 PM)RutgersGuy Wrote:  Why is it every time I see a thread on the Big East this Stever guy is trying to argue that the conference isn't good or isn't respected?

You can read the thread entitled Stever's Thoughts on the Big East forum, but to save you some time, here is the summary:

Wait, stever is a NBE fan? For the past 4 years, I honest to God thought he was a UConn OBE/AAC fan.

(07-26-2018 05:50 PM)IWokeUpLikeThis Wrote:  

(07-26-2018 05:45 PM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote:  

(07-26-2018 03:59 PM)RutgersGuy Wrote:  Why is it every time I see a thread on the Big East this Stever guy is trying to argue that the conference isn't good or isn't respected?

You can read the thread entitled Stever's Thoughts on the Big East forum, but to save you some time, here is the summary:

Wait, stever is a NBE fan? For the past 4 years, I honest to God thought he was a UConn OBE/AAC fan.

You know that fan of your team who is always convinced that you're screwed because (reasons)? The quarterback is a game manager, isn't a 4th quarter gunslinger type--or is a 4th quarter gunslinger who will lose more games with interceptions than he wins you with deep strikes. The bench is thin and the flashy penetrating guard can't shoot the three reliably--or the lead guard is a pedestrian distance shooter who can't create when he drives to the basket.

That guy often sees his own side more clearly than the average fan who always wants to believe the best. But sometimes it curdles into nothing ever being any good. (Stever may come around a bit if Georgetown recovers under Ewing and hangs some new Final Four banners).

(07-26-2018 07:52 PM)johnbragg Wrote:  

(07-26-2018 05:50 PM)IWokeUpLikeThis Wrote:  

(07-26-2018 05:45 PM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote:  

(07-26-2018 03:59 PM)RutgersGuy Wrote:  Why is it every time I see a thread on the Big East this Stever guy is trying to argue that the conference isn't good or isn't respected?

You can read the thread entitled Stever's Thoughts on the Big East forum, but to save you some time, here is the summary:

Wait, stever is a NBE fan? For the past 4 years, I honest to God thought he was a UConn OBE/AAC fan.

You know that fan of your team who is always convinced that you're screwed because (reasons)? The quarterback is a game manager, isn't a 4th quarter gunslinger type--or is a 4th quarter gunslinger who will lose more games with interceptions than he wins you with deep strikes. The bench is thin and the flashy penetrating guard can't shoot the three reliably--or the lead guard is a pedestrian distance shooter who can't create when he drives to the basket.

That guy often sees his own side more clearly than the average fan who always wants to believe the best. But sometimes it curdles into nothing ever being any good. (Stever may come around a bit if Georgetown recovers under Ewing and hangs some new Final Four banners).

Stever is an AAC (American Athletic) fan. He admitted this on the other site this past Spring. We all knew this anyway over 3 years ago. He's hidden bogusly behind Georgetown. He hates the Big East. A very odd duck to put so much energy every day over several years into trying to insult and troll the conference. He even set up an alternate second account at the other site at one point in order to troll.

This helps make the non-conference season fun.

(07-26-2018 07:36 AM)Gamecock Wrote:  I don't really follow Big Ten basketball that closely, but to me Michigan State jumps out as the class of that conference and it isn't particularly close.

And you would be correct. I suspect most in this thread don't even know that Wisconsin is actually the second best program in the Big Ten over the past 20 years. And as big of a gap as there is between the Spartans and the Badgers, there is almost as big a gap between the Badgers and the third best program, the Buckeyes.

Michigan basically went the entire 00s without doing a thing, but have been doing well the past 6 years.

Cheers,
Neil

(10-15-2018 07:56 PM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote:  

Great News!

This is a testament to Big East strength - P5 leagues like the B1G and Big 12 know that their conference SOS will improve with games versus Big East schools. Great for everyone!

(10-16-2018 09:52 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(10-15-2018 07:56 PM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote:  

Great News!

This is a testament to Big East strength - P5 leagues like the B1G and Big 12 know that their conference SOS will improve with games versus Big East schools. Great for everyone!

At this point, I'm not sure this doesn't come off as a little bit insecure.
"Yay the cool kids like us!" Yeah, we're a major basketball conference. This is the status quo at this point--announcing a Big 12-Big East challenge isn't bigger news than a challenge between any 2 BCS conferences.

(10-16-2018 09:55 AM)johnbragg Wrote:  At this point, I'm not sure this doesn't come off as a little bit insecure.
"Yay the cool kids like us!" Yeah, we're a major basketball conference. This is the status quo at this point--announcing a Big 12-Big East challenge isn't bigger news than a challenge between any 2 BCS conferences.

I think that is an excellent point. After five years, the Big East has clearly established itself as one of the top basketball conferences. The point of fighting to stay among the best has clearly passed, both in the eyes of the public and via the results on the court.

(10-16-2018 09:55 AM)johnbragg Wrote:  

(10-16-2018 09:52 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(10-15-2018 07:56 PM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote:  

Great News!

This is a testament to Big East strength - P5 leagues like the B1G and Big 12 know that their conference SOS will improve with games versus Big East schools. Great for everyone!

At this point, I'm not sure this doesn't come off as a little bit insecure.
"Yay the cool kids like us!" Yeah, we're a major basketball conference. This is the status quo at this point--announcing a Big 12-Big East challenge isn't bigger news than a challenge between any 2 BCS conferences.

Well, FWIW, if the PAC and SEC announced a challenge, i think it would merit about the same amount of news as this one does.

Also, let's face it: Some amount of 'insecurity' is warranted. The Big East is clearly in the Big Boy hoops club now, but we don't have a "lifetime membership" like the P5 conferences do. We have to continue to earn it, or we could slip down to AAC/A10 status, or worse. So we can't let our guard down the way the P5 conferences can.

(10-16-2018 11:32 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(10-16-2018 09:55 AM)johnbragg Wrote:  

(10-16-2018 09:52 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(10-15-2018 07:56 PM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote:  

Great News!

This is a testament to Big East strength - P5 leagues like the B1G and Big 12 know that their conference SOS will improve with games versus Big East schools. Great for everyone!

At this point, I'm not sure this doesn't come off as a little bit insecure.
"Yay the cool kids like us!" Yeah, we're a major basketball conference. This is the status quo at this point--announcing a Big 12-Big East challenge isn't bigger news than a challenge between any 2 BCS conferences.

Well, FWIW, if the PAC and SEC announced a challenge, i think it would merit about the same amount of news as this one does.

True. But it wouldn't be in the format of either the PAC or SEC doing a happy dance that the other conference had recognized them as an equal.

Quote:Also, let's face it: Some amount of 'insecurity' is warranted. The Big East is clearly in the Big Boy hoops club now, but we don't have a "lifetime membership" like the P5 conferences do. We have to continue to earn it, or we could slip down to AAC/A10 status, or worse. So we can't let our guard down the way the P5 conferences can.

True. The PAC or SEC could go 10 years without a Final Four or 2-3 years without a Sweet 16 before anybody really noticed.

EDIT: Anybody outside Kentucky, anyway.

I'd like to see the AAC sign into a challenge with the MWC or the A10. As a Cincinnati fan, I would rather play P5 schools; but I must admit a challenge with these conferences will help boost the RPI of schools like USF and ECU that continue to negatively impact the stronger basketball schools in the conference.

(10-17-2018 09:25 AM)CliftonAve Wrote:  I'd like to see the AAC sign into a challenge with the MWC or the A10. As a Cincinnati fan, I would rather play P5 schools; but I must admit a challenge with these conferences will help boost the RPI of schools like USF and ECU that continue to negatively impact the stronger basketball schools in the conference.

How does that help the AAC if ECU gets beat by Fresno or Fordham? It won't even boost their Strength of Schedule.

I'd rather UC just sign one-off deals with schools like Dayton, SLU, and New Mexico, sort of like we're doing this year with UNLV.