(08-28-2018 05:19 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  Lad, this is the 10,000 meter run, not the 60 meter sprint. There will be changes in pace, in who is leading, in everything, before we reach the finish line. But we can cheer a good start. In fact, we can cheer that we have even made a start. The final outcome is a long way off, and may or may not be as we wish. But it is a damn good start that we are even trying to get to that finish line. Don't dismiss the race because we are not yet at the finish line.

I'm not dismissing anything - I've said multiple times that it is good that Trump was willing to start a dialogue.

But your analogy is perfect - we're maybe 0.6% of the way there, as we've finished the first 60 meters. No one should be congratulating or lauding anyone for that.

And we're in a similar position with Mexico regarding a revised trade agreement. It's news that we've started talking, and that's a good position to be in. But we're so far off from tangible results that no one is deserving of praise yet.

As a millennial, I found a very apt comparison. These situations, where you and Tanq want to pass out awards for just getting into the race is just like how my parent's generation decided to give every kid on the soccer team a participation trophy.

My next door neighbor rented to a bunch of dumfk twentiers ---- gave them the benefit of the doubt for two parties. The third was a pool party that lasted to 4.45 with a lot of loud music and racous pool activity.

I went over at 7.00 am and said that if I hear a fing peep from them again cops will be called and they will face a suit for public nuisance and diminishment of value. I havent heard anything beyond 11.00 pm since then.

I guess by Lad's standards that is a complete failure, there is no 'binding agreement', and I am 'back to square one'. Funny how reality doesnt intrude and I think I have a 'tangible' improvement.

Lucky for me I have Lad to tell me that it is still the same situation. I have seen regression since my neighbors stretched that to 11.30 one Saturday night. No tangible benefits to me *at all*. Thanks for the education there Lad.

Next time I wont be so flippant and go over there with a binding contract in hand. That'll show them....

(08-28-2018 07:08 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:  My next door neighbor rented to a bunch of dumfk twentiers ---- gave them the benefit of the doubt for two parties. The third was a pool party that lasted to 4.45 with a lot of loud music and racous pool activity.

I went over at 7.00 am and said that if I hear a fing peep from them again cops will be called and they will face a suit for public nuisance and diminishment of value. I havent heard anything beyond 11.00 pm since then.

I guess by Lad's standards that is a complete failure, there is no 'binding agreement', and I am 'back to square one'. Funny how reality doesnt intrude and I think I have a 'tangible' improvement.

Lucky for me I have Lad to tell me that it is still the same situation. I have seen regression since my neighbors stretched that to 11.30 one Saturday night. No tangible benefits to me *at all*. Thanks for the education there Lad.

Next time I wont be so flippant and go over there with a binding contract in hand. That'll show them....

Yep, the US-NK relations can be easily exemplified by your relationship with rowdy neighbors. Perfect analogy!

In your case, your neighbors know what will happen if they throw another party. What are we going to do if NK launches another ballistic missile? Hm, I don't know because we haven't publicly communicated an agreement that was made between us and NK.

And let me respond to a comment you slipped in that is the perfect example of how far your posts stretch what I say sometimes. I'm constantly amazed at the reality you live in based on how you characterize my comments.

I never said anything about Trump's work being a complete failure. I wouldn't characterize it that way at all. I do think they've failed at achieving anything sustained, so far. But they have been able to get NK to the table (even if they've now regressed back to their hole), and we have seen a ceasing of ballistic tests. What I've said is that this isn't tangible progress, and that's because there is nothing to indicate that the change in NK's character will stick.

Going back to your overly simplistic example, there is also nothing to make you believe the changes will stick - as you said, they're a bunch of idiots, so how long do you think idiots will listen to you?

Lad, I'm simply enjoying the 'non-tangible', 'non-legally binding' improvement, as opposed to bitching and saying its 'back to square one' and further bitching that I dont have a 'legal agreement' to that effect.

The 'binding contract' that is seemingly your sine qua non of notice of that achievement of any 'tangibility' (made up word -- but fits.....) and the sole difference that stands between your supposed 'back to square one' and any improvement. Got it. Loud and clear.

(08-28-2018 08:01 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:  Lad, I'm simply enjoying the 'non-tangible', 'non-legally binding' improvement, as opposed to bitching and saying its 'back to square one' and further bitching that I dont have a 'legal agreement' to that effect.

The 'binding contract' that is seemingly your sine qua non of notice of that achievement of any 'tangibility' (made up word -- but fits.....) and the sole difference that stands between your supposed 'back to square one' and any improvement. Got it. Loud and clear.

K -I'll enjoy them too. But as I said to OO, just like with the Mexico deal, there isn't anything real to celebrate yet. But that doesn't mean the news isn't good.

As I've asked before do you have any reason to believe that you're going to continue enjoying those benefits into the future? And if so, what supports that belief?

(08-28-2018 05:47 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(08-28-2018 05:19 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  Lad, this is the 10,000 meter run, not the 60 meter sprint. There will be changes in pace, in who is leading, in everything, before we reach the finish line. But we can cheer a good start. In fact, we can cheer that we have even made a start. The final outcome is a long way off, and may or may not be as we wish. But it is a damn good start that we are even trying to get to that finish line. Don't dismiss the race because we are not yet at the finish line.

I'm not dismissing anything - I've said multiple times that it is good that Trump was willing to start a dialogue.

But your analogy is perfect - we're maybe 0.6% of the way there, as we've finished the first 60 meters. No one should be congratulating or lauding anyone for that.

And we're in a similar position with Mexico regarding a revised trade agreement. It's news that we've started talking, and that's a good position to be in. But we're so far off from tangible results that no one is deserving of praise yet.

As a millennial, I found a very apt comparison. These situations, where you and Tanq want to pass out awards for just getting into the race is just like how my parent's generation decided to give every kid on the soccer team a participation trophy.

Gee, I would have said it was my son's generation.

We don't know yet if it is .6% of the way there. Certainly closer than it has been in decades. But I know when my son ran track, I would cheer for him every step of the way. I cheered the start, the middle, and of course the last push to the wire (He was a miler). I guess this implies that when you have a son, you will say to him, "call me when its done, and tell me you won, otherwise, I'm not interested." I hope this attitude is just because he is Trump, I cannot imagine you would ever do your kid like that.

I have often said here that foreign policy is important to me, and also that I wanted a change from our do-nothing, back out of the room foreign policy under Obama. Whatever Trump is doing, it is having an effect, an effect we didn't see under the studied indifference of his predecessors. In only two years, I have learned not to judge Trump's initiative by how they start, but how they finish. He approaches these things differently from any previous President, I guess because he has been a businessman, not a politician, and so far, so good. A year ago people on your side where saying he would start WW III. So far, I think we are closer to denuclearization than we are to Armegeddon. Still could go either way, but for this first time since the 50's, maybe, just maybe, there is a real chance of defusing the NK situation. If Obama had done this, I would be be applauding him. But he didn't. Trump is.

As for the Mexico agreement, all it needs is Congressional approval. I guess the Democrats will find some reason to say no. They are the party of No. But the real reason is because Trump did it, and we all know that.

Of course, this one we can liken to the Texas Two-step. Step one is Mexico. Step two is Canada. And soon we will have a tri-country trade agreement better than NAFTA. And I liked NAFTA.

We are getting results from this President, despite the many and unneeded obstacles the Democrats throw at him. I hope the Democrats are unsuccessful in their efforts to make things worse.

Sure, the NK problem is a marathon not a sprint - and that marathon began in the 1960s. Every president of both parties up to now has worked to put pressure on NK, to isolate them as a pariah internationally, and generally keep the vise grips on. *That's* been the marathon, and while I don't know exactly what mile marker we were at when Trump got the baton, I do know that the free world was far better trained and equipped to win that race eventually. What Trump did, in granting a symbolic meeting that NK had long and dearly coveted, was to slow the pace, give our tiring competitor a breather, and let him use our water bottle.

Nevertheless the sanctions implemented by previous administrations are still in place and slowly but inexorably doing their thing, so maybe in some sense we are "closer" to denuclearization and an end to horrific prison camps than when Trump started running his leg. But giving Trump credit seems to me about as strained as giving Obama credit for "getting" Bin Laden.

(08-29-2018 11:15 AM)illiniowl Wrote:  Sure, the NK problem is a marathon not a sprint - and that marathon began in the 1960s. Every president of both parties up to now has worked to put pressure on NK, to isolate them as a pariah internationally, and generally keep the vise grips on. *That's* been the marathon, and while I don't know exactly what mile marker we were at when Trump got the baton, I do know that the free world was far better trained and equipped to win that race eventually. What Trump did, in granting a symbolic meeting that NK had long and dearly coveted, was to slow the pace, give our tiring competitor a breather, and let him use our water bottle.

Nevertheless the sanctions implemented by previous administrations are still in place and slowly but inexorably doing their thing, so maybe in some sense we are "closer" to denuclearization and an end to horrific prison camps than when Trump started running his leg. But giving Trump credit seems to me about as strained as giving Obama credit for "getting" Bin Laden.

As you describe it, the closest thing I can think of is the Olympic Torch
Relay.

Lad said he could give Trump no credit because he has reached the goal yet. I guess similarly, he can give no credit to Eisenhower, Kennedy, Johnson, Nixon, Ford, Carter, Reagan, Bush 41, Clinton, Bush 43, and Obama, because none of them ever reached the goal.

I think Trump is running his leg better than any of them did. JMHO. I wonder what it will look like when he finishes his leg. Hope they don't take the baton from him for an old affair and go back to the same ol', same ol'.

(08-29-2018 04:56 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(08-29-2018 11:15 AM)illiniowl Wrote:  Sure, the NK problem is a marathon not a sprint - and that marathon began in the 1960s. Every president of both parties up to now has worked to put pressure on NK, to isolate them as a pariah internationally, and generally keep the vise grips on. *That's* been the marathon, and while I don't know exactly what mile marker we were at when Trump got the baton, I do know that the free world was far better trained and equipped to win that race eventually. What Trump did, in granting a symbolic meeting that NK had long and dearly coveted, was to slow the pace, give our tiring competitor a breather, and let him use our water bottle.

Nevertheless the sanctions implemented by previous administrations are still in place and slowly but inexorably doing their thing, so maybe in some sense we are "closer" to denuclearization and an end to horrific prison camps than when Trump started running his leg. But giving Trump credit seems to me about as strained as giving Obama credit for "getting" Bin Laden.

As you describe it, the closest thing I can think of is the Olympic Torch
Relay.

Lad said he could give Trump no credit because he has reached the goal yet. I guess similarly, he can give no credit to Eisenhower, Kennedy, Johnson, Nixon, Ford, Carter, Reagan, Bush 41, Clinton, Bush 43, and Obama, because none of them ever reached the goal.

I think Trump is running his leg better than any of them did. JMHO. I wonder what it will look like when he finishes his leg. Hope they don't take the baton from him for an old affair and go back to the same ol', same ol'.

According to Lad we are *already* back at square one....

Quote:This week the Inspector General (IG) of the General Services Investigation (GSA) issued a report which found that, despite previous denials, President Trump was personally involved in the decision to overturn years of planning for the relocation of the FBI headquarters. That decision has a significant impact on Trump’s financial interests, given the proximity of the current headquarters to the Trump International Hotel.

The report also found that Administration officials misled Congress and refused to reveal to investigators the nature of Trump’s involvement in that decision. Rep. Don Beyer issued the following statement:

“Last year, the Trump Administration inexplicably overturned years of work to move the FBI out of its structurally deficient headquarters and into a new location, wasting thousands of staff hours and millions of taxpayer dollars. The Inspector General’s report makes it clear that Trump was personally involved in this decision, raising the specter of major mismanagement of a multi-billion-dollar federal procurement project motivated by the President’s business interests.

The report also revealed that officials who were present or aware of these discussions repeatedly misled Members of Congress about the President’s involvement. Further, Administration officials say they were told by the White House Counsel’s office ‘not to disclose any statements made by the President.’ This looks like a cover-up.

Given the findings in the IG’s report and the President’s conflicts of interest, evidence of Trump’s culture of corruption is staring us in the face. Congress must immediately launch a full investigation to establish what happened with the FBI headquarters project and what influence the President exerted. Given the IG report’s finding that Administration officials lowballed Congress on the costs of the project and the President’s conflicts of interest, GSA and FBI should return to the original plan to build a fully consolidated FBI headquarters in the region.”

The IG report, requested and subsequently released by Congressman Gerry Connolly (D-VA), reviewed GSA’s sudden decision to overturn years of planning for a suburban location and instead demolish the current FBI headquarters on Pennsylvania Avenue in Washington, D.C., and build a new headquarters at the same location.

That decision was made, according to the report, after two meetings at the White House on January 24, 2018, one of which involved President Trump. Officials who took part in or were aware of those meetings were asked several times in House and Senate hearings whether the President had been a party to any discussions regarding the future of the FBI headquarters, and gave what the IG report repeatedly characterizes as a “misleading impression” by failing to answer in the affirmative.

The report also found that the GSA had significantly underestimated the cost of the rebuilding project to Congress by excluding key considerations in its analysis, which allowed the Administration to project that its plan would be less costly than the previous plan to build a new headquarters, when the opposite was true.

https://beyer.house.gov/news/documentsin...entID=1019

(08-29-2018 04:56 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(08-29-2018 11:15 AM)illiniowl Wrote:  Sure, the NK problem is a marathon not a sprint - and that marathon began in the 1960s. Every president of both parties up to now has worked to put pressure on NK, to isolate them as a pariah internationally, and generally keep the vise grips on. *That's* been the marathon, and while I don't know exactly what mile marker we were at when Trump got the baton, I do know that the free world was far better trained and equipped to win that race eventually. What Trump did, in granting a symbolic meeting that NK had long and dearly coveted, was to slow the pace, give our tiring competitor a breather, and let him use our water bottle.

Nevertheless the sanctions implemented by previous administrations are still in place and slowly but inexorably doing their thing, so maybe in some sense we are "closer" to denuclearization and an end to horrific prison camps than when Trump started running his leg. But giving Trump credit seems to me about as strained as giving Obama credit for "getting" Bin Laden.

As you describe it, the closest thing I can think of is the Olympic Torch
Relay.

Lad said he could give Trump no credit because he has reached the goal yet. I guess similarly, he can give no credit to Eisenhower, Kennedy, Johnson, Nixon, Ford, Carter, Reagan, Bush 41, Clinton, Bush 43, and Obama, because none of them ever reached the goal.

I think Trump is running his leg better than any of them did. JMHO. I wonder what it will look like when he finishes his leg. Hope they don't take the baton from him for an old affair and go back to the same ol', same ol'.

I didn’t say that. I said he doesn’t deserve credit because there has been no tangible change. If there had been say an agreement made between the US and NK to permanently dismantle a test site and we could inspect it, I would give him credit. That is a tangible step forward.

All we have is the hope that NK doesn’t start testing the new balistic missile they’re developing. Sorry, in international politics, I’m not sure why hope and good faith passes as progress.

(08-29-2018 06:27 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:  

(08-29-2018 04:56 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(08-29-2018 11:15 AM)illiniowl Wrote:  Sure, the NK problem is a marathon not a sprint - and that marathon began in the 1960s. Every president of both parties up to now has worked to put pressure on NK, to isolate them as a pariah internationally, and generally keep the vise grips on. *That's* been the marathon, and while I don't know exactly what mile marker we were at when Trump got the baton, I do know that the free world was far better trained and equipped to win that race eventually. What Trump did, in granting a symbolic meeting that NK had long and dearly coveted, was to slow the pace, give our tiring competitor a breather, and let him use our water bottle.

Nevertheless the sanctions implemented by previous administrations are still in place and slowly but inexorably doing their thing, so maybe in some sense we are "closer" to denuclearization and an end to horrific prison camps than when Trump started running his leg. But giving Trump credit seems to me about as strained as giving Obama credit for "getting" Bin Laden.

As you describe it, the closest thing I can think of is the Olympic Torch
Relay.

Lad said he could give Trump no credit because he has reached the goal yet. I guess similarly, he can give no credit to Eisenhower, Kennedy, Johnson, Nixon, Ford, Carter, Reagan, Bush 41, Clinton, Bush 43, and Obama, because none of them ever reached the goal.

I think Trump is running his leg better than any of them did. JMHO. I wonder what it will look like when he finishes his leg. Hope they don't take the baton from him for an old affair and go back to the same ol', same ol'.

According to Lad we are *already* back at square one....

Heck, Illini thinks we’re even further back.

I’ve seen similar thoughts on the damage that an in person meeting has done, by basically removing a significant piece of leverage the North Koreans pined for, and not getting concrete concessions in return. But I’m not sure I buy that.

(08-29-2018 07:41 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(08-29-2018 04:56 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(08-29-2018 11:15 AM)illiniowl Wrote:  Sure, the NK problem is a marathon not a sprint - and that marathon began in the 1960s. Every president of both parties up to now has worked to put pressure on NK, to isolate them as a pariah internationally, and generally keep the vise grips on. *That's* been the marathon, and while I don't know exactly what mile marker we were at when Trump got the baton, I do know that the free world was far better trained and equipped to win that race eventually. What Trump did, in granting a symbolic meeting that NK had long and dearly coveted, was to slow the pace, give our tiring competitor a breather, and let him use our water bottle.

Nevertheless the sanctions implemented by previous administrations are still in place and slowly but inexorably doing their thing, so maybe in some sense we are "closer" to denuclearization and an end to horrific prison camps than when Trump started running his leg. But giving Trump credit seems to me about as strained as giving Obama credit for "getting" Bin Laden.

As you describe it, the closest thing I can think of is the Olympic Torch
Relay.

Lad said he could give Trump no credit because he has reached the goal yet. I guess similarly, he can give no credit to Eisenhower, Kennedy, Johnson, Nixon, Ford, Carter, Reagan, Bush 41, Clinton, Bush 43, and Obama, because none of them ever reached the goal.

I think Trump is running his leg better than any of them did. JMHO. I wonder what it will look like when he finishes his leg. Hope they don't take the baton from him for an old affair and go back to the same ol', same ol'.

I didn’t say that. I said he doesn’t deserve credit because there has been no tangible change. If there had been say an agreement made between the US and NK to permanently dismantle a test site and we could inspect it, I would give him credit. That is a tangible step forward.

All we have is the hope that NK doesn’t start testing the new balistic missile they’re developing. Sorry, in international politics, I’m not sure why hope and good faith passes as progress.

So the *only* potential positive step for you is a signed, embossed, piece of happy paper.

Im glad to hear that I am in the throes of 'no tangible' betterment on my backdoor neighbor front. My wife is gonna be upset at that.

(08-29-2018 08:30 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:  

(08-29-2018 07:41 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(08-29-2018 04:56 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(08-29-2018 11:15 AM)illiniowl Wrote:  Sure, the NK problem is a marathon not a sprint - and that marathon began in the 1960s. Every president of both parties up to now has worked to put pressure on NK, to isolate them as a pariah internationally, and generally keep the vise grips on. *That's* been the marathon, and while I don't know exactly what mile marker we were at when Trump got the baton, I do know that the free world was far better trained and equipped to win that race eventually. What Trump did, in granting a symbolic meeting that NK had long and dearly coveted, was to slow the pace, give our tiring competitor a breather, and let him use our water bottle.

Nevertheless the sanctions implemented by previous administrations are still in place and slowly but inexorably doing their thing, so maybe in some sense we are "closer" to denuclearization and an end to horrific prison camps than when Trump started running his leg. But giving Trump credit seems to me about as strained as giving Obama credit for "getting" Bin Laden.

As you describe it, the closest thing I can think of is the Olympic Torch
Relay.

Lad said he could give Trump no credit because he has reached the goal yet. I guess similarly, he can give no credit to Eisenhower, Kennedy, Johnson, Nixon, Ford, Carter, Reagan, Bush 41, Clinton, Bush 43, and Obama, because none of them ever reached the goal.

I think Trump is running his leg better than any of them did. JMHO. I wonder what it will look like when he finishes his leg. Hope they don't take the baton from him for an old affair and go back to the same ol', same ol'.

I didn’t say that. I said he doesn’t deserve credit because there has been no tangible change. If there had been say an agreement made between the US and NK to permanently dismantle a test site and we could inspect it, I would give him credit. That is a tangible step forward.

All we have is the hope that NK doesn’t start testing the new balistic missile they’re developing. Sorry, in international politics, I’m not sure why hope and good faith passes as progress.

So the *only* potential positive step for you is a signed, embossed, piece of happy paper.

Im glad to hear that I am in the throes of 'no tangible' betterment on my backdoor neighbor front. My wife is gonna be upset at that.

I'd be happy with a verbal agreement as well.

I'll ask for the third time, what makes you hopeful that the current lack of missile tests will be permanent?

(08-29-2018 07:41 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(08-29-2018 04:56 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(08-29-2018 11:15 AM)illiniowl Wrote:  Sure, the NK problem is a marathon not a sprint - and that marathon began in the 1960s. Every president of both parties up to now has worked to put pressure on NK, to isolate them as a pariah internationally, and generally keep the vise grips on. *That's* been the marathon, and while I don't know exactly what mile marker we were at when Trump got the baton, I do know that the free world was far better trained and equipped to win that race eventually. What Trump did, in granting a symbolic meeting that NK had long and dearly coveted, was to slow the pace, give our tiring competitor a breather, and let him use our water bottle.

Nevertheless the sanctions implemented by previous administrations are still in place and slowly but inexorably doing their thing, so maybe in some sense we are "closer" to denuclearization and an end to horrific prison camps than when Trump started running his leg. But giving Trump credit seems to me about as strained as giving Obama credit for "getting" Bin Laden.

As you describe it, the closest thing I can think of is the Olympic Torch
Relay.

Lad said he could give Trump no credit because he has reached the goal yet. I guess similarly, he can give no credit to Eisenhower, Kennedy, Johnson, Nixon, Ford, Carter, Reagan, Bush 41, Clinton, Bush 43, and Obama, because none of them ever reached the goal.

I think Trump is running his leg better than any of them did. JMHO. I wonder what it will look like when he finishes his leg. Hope they don't take the baton from him for an old affair and go back to the same ol', same ol'.

I didn’t say that. I said he doesn’t deserve credit because there has been no tangible change. If there had been say an agreement made between the US and NK to permanently dismantle a test site and we could inspect it, I would give him credit. That is a tangible step forward.

All we have is the hope that NK doesn’t start testing the new balistic missile they’re developing. Sorry, in international politics, I’m not sure why hope and good faith passes as progress.

Hope and good faith passed for progress with the Iran agreement, didn't it? So there is precedent.

Your "tangible change" sounds a lot like the finish line. Back to the track analogy, every step forward toward the finish line is a tangible change. It may take 10,000 steps though.

JMHO, but I think if President Hillary was doing the same, you would be happy with the progress.

(08-29-2018 09:51 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(08-29-2018 07:41 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(08-29-2018 04:56 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(08-29-2018 11:15 AM)illiniowl Wrote:  Sure, the NK problem is a marathon not a sprint - and that marathon began in the 1960s. Every president of both parties up to now has worked to put pressure on NK, to isolate them as a pariah internationally, and generally keep the vise grips on. *That's* been the marathon, and while I don't know exactly what mile marker we were at when Trump got the baton, I do know that the free world was far better trained and equipped to win that race eventually. What Trump did, in granting a symbolic meeting that NK had long and dearly coveted, was to slow the pace, give our tiring competitor a breather, and let him use our water bottle.

Nevertheless the sanctions implemented by previous administrations are still in place and slowly but inexorably doing their thing, so maybe in some sense we are "closer" to denuclearization and an end to horrific prison camps than when Trump started running his leg. But giving Trump credit seems to me about as strained as giving Obama credit for "getting" Bin Laden.

As you describe it, the closest thing I can think of is the Olympic Torch
Relay.

Lad said he could give Trump no credit because he has reached the goal yet. I guess similarly, he can give no credit to Eisenhower, Kennedy, Johnson, Nixon, Ford, Carter, Reagan, Bush 41, Clinton, Bush 43, and Obama, because none of them ever reached the goal.

I think Trump is running his leg better than any of them did. JMHO. I wonder what it will look like when he finishes his leg. Hope they don't take the baton from him for an old affair and go back to the same ol', same ol'.

I didn’t say that. I said he doesn’t deserve credit because there has been no tangible change. If there had been say an agreement made between the US and NK to permanently dismantle a test site and we could inspect it, I would give him credit. That is a tangible step forward.

All we have is the hope that NK doesn’t start testing the new balistic missile they’re developing. Sorry, in international politics, I’m not sure why hope and good faith passes as progress.

Hope and good faith passed for progress with the Iran agreement, didn't it? So there is precedent.

Your "tangible change" sounds a lot like the finish line. Back to the track analogy, every step forward toward the finish line is a tangible change. It may take 10,000 steps though.

JMHO, but I think if President Hillary was doing the same, you would be happy with the progress.

I just dont know how Im gonna break it to Mrs Tanq that in fact there is no tangible change with the neighbors.

Gonna be a tough sell there.

Either she's gonna demand that I get a signed, embossed, notarized, legal agreement, or she's gonna tell me I have my head up my ass about no tangible change.

Funny, also I dont know how to put in effect a legal agreement for them to 'continue not to party like rockstars every weekend.' I mean, since there is no 'legal agreement', they can revert back to the Bon Jovi lifestyle at 4.45 am. That uncertainty definitely dashes any upside change I have seen.

Funny thing, even with some fancy pants legal agreement with a big fing seal on it, nothing prevents them from breaching that big ol' fancy pants agreement complete with genuine embossed wax and stuff. So I guess I am back to 'square one' (haha) no matter how I do that.

But I guess I gotta do it that way to say there is tangible change. Quite the conundrum. Im pissed. Thought things were actually better when, in fact, Im too stupid to notice it is really all the same as before.

(08-29-2018 11:15 AM)illiniowl Wrote:  What Trump did, in granting a symbolic meeting that NK had long and dearly coveted, was to slow the pace, give our tiring competitor a breather, and let him use our water bottle.

I guess that symbolic meeting counts as something tangible. Right, Lad?

(08-29-2018 10:12 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:  

(08-29-2018 09:51 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(08-29-2018 07:41 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(08-29-2018 04:56 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(08-29-2018 11:15 AM)illiniowl Wrote:  Sure, the NK problem is a marathon not a sprint - and that marathon began in the 1960s. Every president of both parties up to now has worked to put pressure on NK, to isolate them as a pariah internationally, and generally keep the vise grips on. *That's* been the marathon, and while I don't know exactly what mile marker we were at when Trump got the baton, I do know that the free world was far better trained and equipped to win that race eventually. What Trump did, in granting a symbolic meeting that NK had long and dearly coveted, was to slow the pace, give our tiring competitor a breather, and let him use our water bottle.

Nevertheless the sanctions implemented by previous administrations are still in place and slowly but inexorably doing their thing, so maybe in some sense we are "closer" to denuclearization and an end to horrific prison camps than when Trump started running his leg. But giving Trump credit seems to me about as strained as giving Obama credit for "getting" Bin Laden.

As you describe it, the closest thing I can think of is the Olympic Torch
Relay.

Lad said he could give Trump no credit because he has reached the goal yet. I guess similarly, he can give no credit to Eisenhower, Kennedy, Johnson, Nixon, Ford, Carter, Reagan, Bush 41, Clinton, Bush 43, and Obama, because none of them ever reached the goal.

I think Trump is running his leg better than any of them did. JMHO. I wonder what it will look like when he finishes his leg. Hope they don't take the baton from him for an old affair and go back to the same ol', same ol'.

I didn’t say that. I said he doesn’t deserve credit because there has been no tangible change. If there had been say an agreement made between the US and NK to permanently dismantle a test site and we could inspect it, I would give him credit. That is a tangible step forward.

All we have is the hope that NK doesn’t start testing the new balistic missile they’re developing. Sorry, in international politics, I’m not sure why hope and good faith passes as progress.

Hope and good faith passed for progress with the Iran agreement, didn't it? So there is precedent.

Your "tangible change" sounds a lot like the finish line. Back to the track analogy, every step forward toward the finish line is a tangible change. It may take 10,000 steps though.

JMHO, but I think if President Hillary was doing the same, you would be happy with the progress.

I just dont know how Im gonna break it to Mrs Tanq that in fact there is no tangible change with the neighbors.

Gonna be a tough sell there.

Either she's gonna demand that I get a signed, embossed, notarized, legal agreement, or she's gonna tell me I have my head up my ass about no tangible change.

Funny, also I dont know how to put in effect a legal agreement for them to 'continue not to party like rockstars every weekend.' I mean, since there is no 'legal agreement', they can revert back to the Bon Jovi lifestyle at 4.45 am. That uncertainty definitely dashes any upside change I have seen.

Funny thing, even with some fancy pants legal agreement with a big fing seal on it, nothing prevents them from breaching that big ol' fancy pants agreement complete with genuine embossed wax and stuff. So I guess I am back to 'square one' (haha) no matter how I do that.

But I guess I gotta do it that way to say there is tangible change. Quite the conundrum. Im pissed. Thought things were actually better when, in fact, Im too stupid to notice it is really all the same as before.

For the fourth time, what makes you think that NK will continue to not test missiles?

(08-29-2018 09:51 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(08-29-2018 07:41 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(08-29-2018 04:56 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(08-29-2018 11:15 AM)illiniowl Wrote:  Sure, the NK problem is a marathon not a sprint - and that marathon began in the 1960s. Every president of both parties up to now has worked to put pressure on NK, to isolate them as a pariah internationally, and generally keep the vise grips on. *That's* been the marathon, and while I don't know exactly what mile marker we were at when Trump got the baton, I do know that the free world was far better trained and equipped to win that race eventually. What Trump did, in granting a symbolic meeting that NK had long and dearly coveted, was to slow the pace, give our tiring competitor a breather, and let him use our water bottle.

Nevertheless the sanctions implemented by previous administrations are still in place and slowly but inexorably doing their thing, so maybe in some sense we are "closer" to denuclearization and an end to horrific prison camps than when Trump started running his leg. But giving Trump credit seems to me about as strained as giving Obama credit for "getting" Bin Laden.

As you describe it, the closest thing I can think of is the Olympic Torch
Relay.

Lad said he could give Trump no credit because he has reached the goal yet. I guess similarly, he can give no credit to Eisenhower, Kennedy, Johnson, Nixon, Ford, Carter, Reagan, Bush 41, Clinton, Bush 43, and Obama, because none of them ever reached the goal.

I think Trump is running his leg better than any of them did. JMHO. I wonder what it will look like when he finishes his leg. Hope they don't take the baton from him for an old affair and go back to the same ol', same ol'.

I didn’t say that. I said he doesn’t deserve credit because there has been no tangible change. If there had been say an agreement made between the US and NK to permanently dismantle a test site and we could inspect it, I would give him credit. That is a tangible step forward.

All we have is the hope that NK doesn’t start testing the new balistic missile they’re developing. Sorry, in international politics, I’m not sure why hope and good faith passes as progress.

Hope and good faith passed for progress with the Iran agreement, didn't it? So there is precedent.

Your "tangible change" sounds a lot like the finish line. Back to the track analogy, every step forward toward the finish line is a tangible change. It may take 10,000 steps though.

JMHO, but I think if President Hillary was doing the same, you would be happy with the progress.

Please outline what was agreed to in the Iran Nuclear Deal.

(08-30-2018 07:20 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(08-29-2018 09:51 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(08-29-2018 07:41 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(08-29-2018 04:56 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(08-29-2018 11:15 AM)illiniowl Wrote:  Sure, the NK problem is a marathon not a sprint - and that marathon began in the 1960s. Every president of both parties up to now has worked to put pressure on NK, to isolate them as a pariah internationally, and generally keep the vise grips on. *That's* been the marathon, and while I don't know exactly what mile marker we were at when Trump got the baton, I do know that the free world was far better trained and equipped to win that race eventually. What Trump did, in granting a symbolic meeting that NK had long and dearly coveted, was to slow the pace, give our tiring competitor a breather, and let him use our water bottle.

Nevertheless the sanctions implemented by previous administrations are still in place and slowly but inexorably doing their thing, so maybe in some sense we are "closer" to denuclearization and an end to horrific prison camps than when Trump started running his leg. But giving Trump credit seems to me about as strained as giving Obama credit for "getting" Bin Laden.

As you describe it, the closest thing I can think of is the Olympic Torch
Relay.

Lad said he could give Trump no credit because he has reached the goal yet. I guess similarly, he can give no credit to Eisenhower, Kennedy, Johnson, Nixon, Ford, Carter, Reagan, Bush 41, Clinton, Bush 43, and Obama, because none of them ever reached the goal.

I think Trump is running his leg better than any of them did. JMHO. I wonder what it will look like when he finishes his leg. Hope they don't take the baton from him for an old affair and go back to the same ol', same ol'.

I didn’t say that. I said he doesn’t deserve credit because there has been no tangible change. If there had been say an agreement made between the US and NK to permanently dismantle a test site and we could inspect it, I would give him credit. That is a tangible step forward.

All we have is the hope that NK doesn’t start testing the new balistic missile they’re developing. Sorry, in international politics, I’m not sure why hope and good faith passes as progress.

Hope and good faith passed for progress with the Iran agreement, didn't it? So there is precedent.

Your "tangible change" sounds a lot like the finish line. Back to the track analogy, every step forward toward the finish line is a tangible change. It may take 10,000 steps though.

JMHO, but I think if President Hillary was doing the same, you would be happy with the progress.

Please outline what was agreed to in the Iran Nuclear Deal.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_nucle..._framework