If we're patient, we'll come out of this in the best financial shape since post WW II.

Quote:Canada retaliated Sunday for U.S. tariffs on steel and aluminum by inaugurating tariffs on $12.6 billion in U.S. goods.

The Associated Press reported: “Some U.S. products, mostly steel and iron, face 25 percent tariffs, the same penalty the United States slapped on imported steel at the end of May. Other U.S. imports, from ketchup to pizza to dishwasher detergent, will face a 10 percent tariff at the Canadian border, the same as America’s tax on imported aluminum.”

UPI added: “The new tariffs place a 25 percent tax on more than 40 U.S. steel products and a tax of 10 percent on more than 80 other items such as toffee, maple syrup, coffee beans and strawberry jam.”

Read more here....

That's gonna leave a mark.

(07-01-2018 07:46 PM)BuffaloTN Wrote:  That's gonna leave a mark.

On them....all the more reason for us to kick the illegals out.

America for Americans.

Let's be honest, if we had free trade, there would be NO "special taxes" on US goods going to Canada and NO government subsidies to make Canadian goods cheaper in the US. Canada has been stacking the deck against US businesses for the benefit of Canadian businesses.

(07-01-2018 07:55 PM)THE NC Herd Fan Wrote:  Let's be honest, if we had free trade, there would be NO "special taxes" on US goods going to Canada and NO government subsidies to make Canadian goods cheaper in the US. Canada has been stacking the deck against US businesses for the benefit of Canadian businesses.

Free Trade = screw the blue collar American worker

30 years of destroying American manufacturing has left a mark.

If we can't win a trade war it won't be long before we can't win a shooting war.

Good!

(07-01-2018 07:55 PM)THE NC Herd Fan Wrote:  Let's be honest, if we had free trade, there would be NO "special taxes" on US goods going to Canada and NO government subsidies to make Canadian goods cheaper in the US. Canada has been stacking the deck against US businesses for the benefit of Canadian businesses.

This. Sovereign countries do what is in the best interests of their people and companies. Generally, since WW2, the US has bent over and taken it. It's time we have a government that protects its people and businesses.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nd8uiIpAy8E

Summarized:

Go back to 1944, Bretton Woods. Everybody knows about the currency agreement. But there was more to it than that. WWII was ending. Western Europe was virtually destroyed. But we needed them on our side to fight the Cold War. So we bribed them. We'll let you have a bunch of trade deals that are very favorable to you, so you can get your economies back up and running. And we will provide security for your trade routes, so you don't have to spend much on defense. In return, you'll follow our lead in the Cold War.

Problem is, it worked. And nobody had figured out what to do if we did win. I remember Ross Perot said what I was thinking, "In the post-Cold-War era, economic strength will matter more than military strength." But we didn't shift gears. We are still living with tax and trade policies that favor them over us. We're still spending way more than they are to defend their trade routes. And our world policeman label has led lots of groups like al-Qaeda to hate us.

We tied one hand behind our back from an economic competitiveness standpoint in order to win the Cold War. Trade policy gave in to defense policy. But that's not where we are any more.

So what to do? Here's my idea. Do a consumption tax. That levels a lot of the playing field by itself. It also lets us lower income taxes and take the burden of health care off employers by implementing Bismarck, making us way more attractive to investment. It also gives us enough to replace the welfare plantation with a guaranteed minimum income, which reduces inequality dramatically over time. And we balance the budget which frees up capital markets. And since it's not a tariff, it's not subject to WTO regulation, and there's no real way to retaliate. Then tell everybody they have to pick up more of the defense load, and we will help them do it.

I'm sick and tired of blue collar Americans being screwed over and having a lower and lower standard of living.

Whatever helps them make more money and have a nicer standard of living, I support.

Simple as that.

(07-01-2018 08:28 PM)thespiritof1976 Wrote:  I'm sick and tired of blue collar Americans being screwed over and having a lower and lower standard of living.
Whatever helps them make more money and have a nicer standard of living, I support.
Simple as that.

See my post above you for one idea of how to go.

Here's a more recent Zeihan presentation:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u0eJK4Avk2M

Not much change, just updated.

(07-01-2018 08:33 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(07-01-2018 08:28 PM)thespiritof1976 Wrote:  I'm sick and tired of blue collar Americans being screwed over and having a lower and lower standard of living.
Whatever helps them make more money and have a nicer standard of living, I support.
Simple as that.

See my post above you for one idea of how to go.

i AGREE,.

A consumption/federal tax would have to be in the 12 to 15% range to work. So lets start at 12% and a person in Tenn is now paying 22% of their income just on consumption.

But lets not kid ourself....that tax will increase every few years and would be no different than in the UK where the tax stared out at 10% in 1973 and its double that. Not only doubled but taxes just about everything.

So what is not taxed? Is anyone exempted? So now a person living on $1700 a month from SS is going to lose another 12% (without any state tax) on everything they buy? Are we going to tax homes? That 25,000 dollar new car is now cost $28,000. I wonder what that does for new car sales?

So do we tax second hand sales, like used cars, or clothes, or any number of items? If not you will see a slow down in spending on new items. Lot cheaper buying used. How about food is that going to be taxed? I would think so on eating out. So now your family goes out and eats at $15 a plate dinner and that $60 is $67 and you still get to add in another 15 to 20% for the tip. So now that $15 a plate ends up costing almost $80.

I understand 12% is lower than what most of middle America is paying in income tax....but now you are paying 12% on ALL money spent which today is almost all income...very little savings. The working class gets poorer.

Then you will create a large black market on resales. Hell if something is taxed everytime its sold by the time its no longer worth anything taxes collected on it will be in the 24 to 36% range...resold 2 to 3


Without exemptions for the old and the poor it just makes both groups relying on government help.

(07-01-2018 10:24 PM)WKUYG Wrote:  A consumption/federal tax would have to be in the 12 to 15% range to work. So lets start at 12% and a person in Tenn is now paying 22% of their income just on consumption.

But lets not kid ourself....that tax will increase every few years and would be no different than in the UK where the tax stared out at 10% in 1973 and its double that. Not only doubled but taxes just about everything.

So what is not taxed? Is anyone exempted? So now a person living on $1700 a month from SS is going to lose another 12% (without any state tax) on everything they buy? Are we going to tax homes? That 25,000 dollar new car is now cost $28,000. I wonder what that does for new car sales?

So do we tax second hand sales, like used cars, or clothes, or any number of items? If not you will see a slow down in spending on new items. Lot cheaper buying used. How about food is that going to be taxed? I would think so on eating out. So now your family goes out and eats at $15 a plate dinner and that $60 is $67 and you still get to add in another 15 to 20% for the tip. So now that $15 a plate ends up costing almost $80.

I understand 12% is lower than what most of middle America is paying in income tax....but now you are paying 12% on ALL money spent which today is almost all income...very little savings. The working class gets poorer.

Then you will create a large black market on resales. Hell if something is taxed everytime its sold by the time its no longer worth anything taxes collected on it will be in the 24 to 36% range...resold 2 to 3


Without exemptions for the old and the poor it just makes both groups relying on government help.

Then a flat tax/fair tax.

15% across the board.

Nothing more.

No sales tax, no this, no that.

(07-01-2018 10:24 PM)WKUYG Wrote:  A consumption/federal tax would have to be in the 12 to 15% range to work. So lets start at 12% and a person in Tenn is now paying 22% of their income just on consumption.
But lets not kid ourself....that tax will increase every few years and would be no different than in the UK where the tax stared out at 10% in 1973 and its double that. Not only doubled but taxes just about everything.
So what is not taxed? Is anyone exempted? So now a person living on $1700 a month from SS is going to lose another 12% (without any state tax) on everything they buy? Are we going to tax homes? That 25,000 dollar new car is now cost $28,000. I wonder what that does for new car sales?
So do we tax second hand sales, like used cars, or clothes, or any number of items? If not you will see a slow down in spending on new items. Lot cheaper buying used. How about food is that going to be taxed? I would think so on eating out. So now your family goes out and eats at $15 a plate dinner and that $60 is $67 and you still get to add in another 15 to 20% for the tip. So now that $15 a plate ends up costing almost $80.
I understand 12% is lower than what most of middle America is paying in income tax....but now you are paying 12% on ALL money spent which today is almost all income...very little savings. The working class gets poorer.
Then you will create a large black market on resales. Hell if something is taxed everytime its sold by the time its no longer worth anything taxes collected on it will be in the 24 to 36% range...resold 2 to 3
Without exemptions for the old and the poor it just makes both groups relying on government help.

All of the issues you raise have been dealt with in every country that has imposed a consumption tax--and they have been answered satisfactorily.

The Boortz-Linder prepare/prefund takes care of the poor and elderly.

And here's the thing about the rate increases that you note. In most of those countries, as the consumption tax rates went up, the income tax rates went down. They needed so much in tax revenues to run their government, and they found that a consumption tax had a less harmful impact on their economy than other taxes, so they shifted that direction. They were able simultaneously to offer a more comprehensive safety net and a more tax-efficient ROI for investors. With our relatively smaller government sector, we could adopt their taxing strategy at substantially lower rates. I've run numbers suggesting that with a 15% consumption tax, we could reduce the tax on business and investment income to a flat 15% and eliminate the individual income tax, and balance the budget.

It's not perfect, but I think it's better than what we have now.

Boycott the whole dang country. I'll bet if they start losing the tourists dollars they'll reconsider. That's what drives a lot of countries, our money by way of tourists. No. Really.

(07-01-2018 10:37 PM)thespiritof1976 Wrote:  

(07-01-2018 10:24 PM)WKUYG Wrote:  A consumption/federal tax would have to be in the 12 to 15% range to work. So lets start at 12% and a person in Tenn is now paying 22% of their income just on consumption.

But lets not kid ourself....that tax will increase every few years and would be no different than in the UK where the tax stared out at 10% in 1973 and its double that. Not only doubled but taxes just about everything.

So what is not taxed? Is anyone exempted? So now a person living on $1700 a month from SS is going to lose another 12% (without any state tax) on everything they buy? Are we going to tax homes? That 25,000 dollar new car is now cost $28,000. I wonder what that does for new car sales?

So do we tax second hand sales, like used cars, or clothes, or any number of items? If not you will see a slow down in spending on new items. Lot cheaper buying used. How about food is that going to be taxed? I would think so on eating out. So now your family goes out and eats at $15 a plate dinner and that $60 is $67 and you still get to add in another 15 to 20% for the tip. So now that $15 a plate ends up costing almost $80.

I understand 12% is lower than what most of middle America is paying in income tax....but now you are paying 12% on ALL money spent which today is almost all income...very little savings. The working class gets poorer.

Then you will create a large black market on resales. Hell if something is taxed everytime its sold by the time its no longer worth anything taxes collected on it will be in the 24 to 36% range...resold 2 to 3


Without exemptions for the old and the poor it just makes both groups relying on government help.

Then a flat tax/fair tax.

15% across the board.

Nothing more.

No sales tax, no this, no that.

The old and the poor will be exempted for any flatrate tax will pass. There's no ifs ans or buts to it.

I thought you were for blue collar workers? On 80k a flat rate would be $12,000. According to this calculator your federal taxes would be 5,259.00. That is for filing jointly with 2 children and putting $8,000 into your 401k

I did not use any other deductions

I'm not a tax person so I don't know if that's correct or not .......http://us.icalculator.info/tax-calculator/annual.html

I put the following into it and again I dont have a clue if its correct but assume it is

(07-01-2018 11:08 PM)WKUYG Wrote:  

(07-01-2018 10:37 PM)thespiritof1976 Wrote:  

(07-01-2018 10:24 PM)WKUYG Wrote:  A consumption/federal tax would have to be in the 12 to 15% range to work. So lets start at 12% and a person in Tenn is now paying 22% of their income just on consumption.

But lets not kid ourself....that tax will increase every few years and would be no different than in the UK where the tax stared out at 10% in 1973 and its double that. Not only doubled but taxes just about everything.

So what is not taxed? Is anyone exempted? So now a person living on $1700 a month from SS is going to lose another 12% (without any state tax) on everything they buy? Are we going to tax homes? That 25,000 dollar new car is now cost $28,000. I wonder what that does for new car sales?

So do we tax second hand sales, like used cars, or clothes, or any number of items? If not you will see a slow down in spending on new items. Lot cheaper buying used. How about food is that going to be taxed? I would think so on eating out. So now your family goes out and eats at $15 a plate dinner and that $60 is $67 and you still get to add in another 15 to 20% for the tip. So now that $15 a plate ends up costing almost $80.

I understand 12% is lower than what most of middle America is paying in income tax....but now you are paying 12% on ALL money spent which today is almost all income...very little savings. The working class gets poorer.

Then you will create a large black market on resales. Hell if something is taxed everytime its sold by the time its no longer worth anything taxes collected on it will be in the 24 to 36% range...resold 2 to 3


Without exemptions for the old and the poor it just makes both groups relying on government help.

Then a flat tax/fair tax.

15% across the board.

Nothing more.

No sales tax, no this, no that.

The old and the poor will be exempted for any flatrate tax will pass. There's no ifs ans or buts to it.

I thought you were for blue collar workers? On 80k a flat rate would be $12,000. According to this calculator your federal taxes would be 5,259.00. That is for filing jointly with 2 children and putting $8,000 into your 401k

I did not use any other deductions

I'm not a tax person so I don't know if that's correct or not .......http://us.icalculator.info/tax-calculator/annual.html

I put the following into it and again I dont have a clue if its correct but assume it is

Then get rid of the income tax altogether then. Wouldn't hurt my feelings.

(07-01-2018 11:15 PM)thespiritof1976 Wrote:  

(07-01-2018 11:08 PM)WKUYG Wrote:  

(07-01-2018 10:37 PM)thespiritof1976 Wrote:  

(07-01-2018 10:24 PM)WKUYG Wrote:  A consumption/federal tax would have to be in the 12 to 15% range to work. So lets start at 12% and a person in Tenn is now paying 22% of their income just on consumption.

But lets not kid ourself....that tax will increase every few years and would be no different than in the UK where the tax stared out at 10% in 1973 and its double that. Not only doubled but taxes just about everything.

So what is not taxed? Is anyone exempted? So now a person living on $1700 a month from SS is going to lose another 12% (without any state tax) on everything they buy? Are we going to tax homes? That 25,000 dollar new car is now cost $28,000. I wonder what that does for new car sales?

So do we tax second hand sales, like used cars, or clothes, or any number of items? If not you will see a slow down in spending on new items. Lot cheaper buying used. How about food is that going to be taxed? I would think so on eating out. So now your family goes out and eats at $15 a plate dinner and that $60 is $67 and you still get to add in another 15 to 20% for the tip. So now that $15 a plate ends up costing almost $80.

I understand 12% is lower than what most of middle America is paying in income tax....but now you are paying 12% on ALL money spent which today is almost all income...very little savings. The working class gets poorer.

Then you will create a large black market on resales. Hell if something is taxed everytime its sold by the time its no longer worth anything taxes collected on it will be in the 24 to 36% range...resold 2 to 3


Without exemptions for the old and the poor it just makes both groups relying on government help.

Then a flat tax/fair tax.

15% across the board.

Nothing more.

No sales tax, no this, no that.

The old and the poor will be exempted for any flatrate tax will pass. There's no ifs ans or buts to it.

I thought you were for blue collar workers? On 80k a flat rate would be $12,000. According to this calculator your federal taxes would be 5,259.00. That is for filing jointly with 2 children and putting $8,000 into your 401k

I did not use any other deductions

I'm not a tax person so I don't know if that's correct or not .......http://us.icalculator.info/tax-calculator/annual.html

I put the following into it and again I dont have a clue if its correct but assume it is

Then get rid of the income tax altogether then. Wouldn't hurt my feelings.

The socialists in the dim party would never agree to that. Got to punish the rich for being rich.

Then whatever helps the working man. I'm flexible. TBH, I don't have a favorite here. Whatever helps them do better in life is whatever I support.