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(05-16-2018 03:33 PM)MajorHoople Wrote:  One of the things that I liked best during Fleck's tenure here was his commitment to the running game on offense (even though he was not-is not a big X and O guy, by his own admission).

That was a weakness of his predecessor.

Do you mean his commitment to running and throwing equally, and without predictably, taking advantage of what defenses are giving? If so, you are spot on.

(05-16-2018 06:10 PM)brovol Wrote:  

(05-16-2018 03:33 PM)MajorHoople Wrote:  One of the things that I liked best during Fleck's tenure here was his commitment to the running game on offense (even though he was not-is not a big X and O guy, by his own admission).

That was a weakness of his predecessor.

Do you mean his commitment to running and throwing equally, and without predictably, taking advantage of what defenses are giving? If so, you are spot on.

In 2016 we ran the ball on 63% of plays. In 2017 we ran on 66% of plays.

For some reason the 2012 statistics on the website cut off after 7 games—of the 2013 season. Weird. In 2011, we ran 41% of the time.

For comparison purposes.

We got it - Fleck is the Next Great Thing in football coaching; Lester sucks because he played-coached for Cubit.

(05-16-2018 06:39 PM)MajorHoople Wrote:  We got it - Fleck is the Next Great Thing in football coaching; Lester sucks because he played-coached for Cubit.

I liked Cubit, and thought he was a great coach for WMU. I had very mixed feelings when he was let go. I like Lester, and would LOVE for him to have great success. I didnt think he was the best choice for our head coach, but so what. I support the guy and root like he11 for him to have success.

Before fleck coached a game you, with all that coaching wisdom, knew he wouldn't win here, and after he did win only begrudgingly conceded he did a few things right. Now you want to convince everyone that your original predictions were correct because in his first season at Minnesota he did lousy. WE WENT UNDEFEATED IN THE REGULAR SEASON, WON THE MAC, AND STAYED COMPETITIVE IN THE COTTON BOWL, but you still begrudge those of us who appreciated that. Even with all his goofy sayings, Fleck delivered on his big talk in the end and didn't leave before giving us a very majical season. If you and yours wish to call that appreciation a "man crush", then consider me in love brother.

I honestly think the anti-Fleck folks are that way, not because of how the guy actually did his job, or even his personality, but rather because they laughed and mocked him so much for the RTB stuff, and insisted he was the dumbest hire since Matt Millen, then when he proved that his methodology worked it made them look so silly, and resentment controls at this point.

Coaches get judged in the end on wins and losses. And that is perfectly fair and the way it should be. Lesters methods and philosophies need to work. Flecks did work.

(05-16-2018 07:06 PM)brovol Wrote:  

(05-16-2018 06:39 PM)MajorHoople Wrote:  We got it - Fleck is the Next Great Thing in football coaching; Lester sucks because he played-coached for Cubit.

I liked Cubit, and thought he was a great coach for WMU. I had very mixed feelings when he was let go. I like Lester, and would LOVE for him to have great success. I didnt think he was the best choice for our head coach, but so what. I support the guy and root like he11 for him to have success.

Before fleck coached a game you, with all that coaching wisdom, knew he wouldn't win here, and after he did win only begrudgingly conceded he did a few things right. Now you want to convince everyone that your original predictions were correct because in his first season at Minnesota he did lousy. WE WENT UNDEFEATED IN THE REGULAR SEASON, WON THE MAC, AND STAYED COMPETITIVE IN THE COTTON BOWL, but you still begrudge those of us who appreciated that. Even with all his goofy sayings, Fleck delivered on his big talk in the end and didn't leave before giving us a very majical season. If you and yours wish to call that appreciation a "man crush", then consider me in love brother.

I honestly think the anti-Fleck folks are that way, not because of how the guy actually did his job, or even his personality, but rather because they laughed and mocked him so much for the RTB stuff, and insisted he was the dumbest hire since Matt Millen, then when he proved that his methodology worked it made them look so silly, and resentment controls at this point.

Coaches get judged in the end on wins and losses. And that is perfectly fair and the way it should be. Lesters methods and philosophies need to work. Flecks did work.

Couldn’t have said it better.

i was never a fan of peejay. I watched his first season. 1-11, inexcusable. I thought his best year coaching was 2014. Got more out of the team than was reasonable to expect. 2015, under performed. Arguably a good coach could have eked out 2 more wins. Then that "magical" 2016 team.

Luck. Not skill. Not coaching. Luck gave us the win at Northwestern.
Luck. Not skill. Not coaching. Luck gave us the MACC. WMU had superior players, had the better team but Frank Solich had the better game plan, used his inferior players better and if not for a fumble recovery very likely would have won the championship. He was clearly the better coach that night.

All great teams have a bit of luck and the ball bounces their way when they need it. I often questioned his coaching decisions. Not the least of which is why Flacco didn't get mop up duty to help prepare him for the following season. We can argue all you want about whether he had the ability, but we blew so many teams out it was the perfect opportunity to prepare younger players for the following season. Help the program, help the team, not the coach.

No point raking the ex-coach over the coals. He had flaws. He had major flaws. I can also tell you his players would have tried to run through a brick wall for him. Great motivator, but perhaps not a great coach.

At the end of the day you are entitled to your opinion and I to mine. Neither of us is right or wrong. That's why it's just an opinion.

You can look at 1-11 as inexcusable, but given the context it was necessary to tear everything down to ground zero essentially and rebuild into the program we became in 2016. So... I guess it definitely depends on your perspective. Contrary to what some people think, our football program was in a bad place culturally in 2012 and needed a major overhaul.

I don't account it to much luck. Maybe some (that's always a factor when going undefeated) but teams don't go 13-0 because they're "lucky"... I think a little more credit is due than that.

(05-16-2018 07:47 PM)Aimless1 Wrote:  i was never a fan of peejay. I watched his first season. 1-11, inexcusable. I thought his best year coaching was 2014. Got more out of the team than was reasonable to expect. 2015, under performed. Arguably a good coach could have eked out 2 more wins. Then that "magical" 2016 team.

Luck. Not skill. Not coaching. Luck gave us the win at Northwestern.
Luck. Not skill. Not coaching. Luck gave us the MACC. WMU had superior players, had the better team but Frank Solich had the better game plan, used his inferior players better and if not for a fumble recovery very likely would have won the championship. He was clearly the better coach that night.

All great teams have a bit of luck and the ball bounces their way when they need it. I often questioned his coaching decisions. Not the least of which is why Flacco didn't get mop up duty to help prepare him for the following season. We can argue all you want about whether he had the ability, but we blew so many teams out it was the perfect opportunity to prepare younger players for the following season. Help the program, help the team, not the coach.

No point raking the ex-coach over the coals. He had flaws. He had major flaws. I can also tell you his players would have tried to run through a brick wall for him. Great motivator, but perhaps not a great coach.

At the end of the day you are entitled to your opinion and I to mine. Neither of us is right or wrong. That's why it's just an opinion.

Man.

So I don't particularly agree that 1-11 was "necessary", but I would trade one 1-11 year for the first MACC in 25 years and a Cotton Bowl berth in a heartbeat and I think 99% of people would agree. In context that 1-11 year is damn near irrelevant.

Saying the NW and OU wins were luck is just amazing to me. The premise is that we got outcoached. Sure, OK. But the bottom line is that part of coaching is recruiting so if we beat these teams because of superior talent, well..

Mop up duty is for avoiding injuries. There were a few times that I definitely felt we should have been playing backups instead of Terrell taking hits or Ferguson blowing out his knee, etc. But Flacco taking a few snaps and handing the ball off is not particularly meaningful. That's a dumb narrative that people who disliked the coach cling to to justify underachieving last year.

I really feel sorry for people who couldn't actually enjoy 2016 and constantly.try to tear down the accomplishments. There's a very real chance that its the best season we'll ever see in our lifetimes and its painfully obvious that some of you spent the whole time coming up with reasons that it wasn't really that impressive because you didn't personally like the coach. Sucks for you.

We won at NW and against OU because Roberts Spillane played 100% through the final second.

(05-16-2018 07:47 PM)Aimless1 Wrote:  Luck. Not skill. Not coaching. Luck gave us the MACC. WMU had superior players, had the better team but Frank Solich had the better game plan, used his inferior players better and if not for a fumble recovery very likely would have won the championship. He was clearly the better coach that night.

I glanced at the Ford Field sidelines in the 3rd quarter of the MACC. The Ohio players were loose and dancing around, our players were stiff as boards. I said, "uh oh." Shoot, as a fan, I don't think I've ever been quite so nervous during a game than when Ohio had the momentum in the fourth quarter.

The huge spotlight building throughout the season put the kids in a pressure cooker. Terrell, usually cool, made uncharacteristically bad throws after halftime when Ohio was keeping the score close. Bobcats had zero pressure and had nothing to lose, and it showed. It made Solich's job really easy.

I suppose we can "fault" Fleck for not calming the guys' nerves, but easier said than done.

(05-17-2018 12:36 AM)wmubroncopilot Wrote:  

(05-16-2018 07:47 PM)Aimless1 Wrote:  i was never a fan of peejay. I watched his first season. 1-11, inexcusable. I thought his best year coaching was 2014. Got more out of the team than was reasonable to expect. 2015, under performed. Arguably a good coach could have eked out 2 more wins. Then that "magical" 2016 team.

Luck. Not skill. Not coaching. Luck gave us the win at Northwestern.
Luck. Not skill. Not coaching. Luck gave us the MACC. WMU had superior players, had the better team but Frank Solich had the better game plan, used his inferior players better and if not for a fumble recovery very likely would have won the championship. He was clearly the better coach that night.

All great teams have a bit of luck and the ball bounces their way when they need it. I often questioned his coaching decisions. Not the least of which is why Flacco didn't get mop up duty to help prepare him for the following season. We can argue all you want about whether he had the ability, but we blew so many teams out it was the perfect opportunity to prepare younger players for the following season. Help the program, help the team, not the coach.

No point raking the ex-coach over the coals. He had flaws. He had major flaws. I can also tell you his players would have tried to run through a brick wall for him. Great motivator, but perhaps not a great coach.

At the end of the day you are entitled to your opinion and I to mine. Neither of us is right or wrong. That's why it's just an opinion.

Man.

So I don't particularly agree that 1-11 was "necessary", but I would trade one 1-11 year for the first MACC in 25 years and a Cotton Bowl berth in a heartbeat and I think 99% of people would agree. In context that 1-11 year is damn near irrelevant.

Saying the NW and OU wins were luck is just amazing to me. The premise is that we got outcoached. Sure, OK. But the bottom line is that part of coaching is recruiting so if we beat these teams because of superior talent, well..

Mop up duty is for avoiding injuries. There were a few times that I definitely felt we should have been playing backups instead of Terrell taking hits or Ferguson blowing out his knee, etc. But Flacco taking a few snaps and handing the ball off is not particularly meaningful. That's a dumb narrative that people who disliked the coach cling to to justify underachieving last year.

I really feel sorry for people who couldn't actually enjoy 2016 and constantly.try to tear down the accomplishments. There's a very real chance that its the best season we'll ever see in our lifetimes and its painfully obvious that some of you spent the whole time coming up with reasons that it wasn't really that impressive because you didn't personally like the coach. Sucks for you.

Well said. Will always cherish 2016. Best season of ALL TIME for Bronco Football. Those that view that run, and all the preliminary work it took to create it, as “luck” missed out on something very special. Certain folks, for whatever reason, dug their trenches early and continually fall back into them about Fleck. His ability to draw some of the regions top talent as early recruits, then utilizing those recruits to become the recruiters themselves had nothing to do with luck. His unique messaging was thankfully heard by the right people and his dream became our whole community's reality. I wish the same success to Lester, but undoubtedly, Fleck moving on changed the trajectory of the program and it’s dynamic presence on and off campus. I’m excited for year 2 for Tim... it will be telling.

Most MAC fans would kill to have 13-0, ESPN Game Day on campus, and an NY6 bowl game that, while a loss, wasn't a blowout like a lot of bowl games. Unless the NCAA changes things up, we're probably looking at one MAC team per decade getting that honor. If that.

The fact that our schedule wasn't murderers row and a few AAC & MWC outcomes went our way is irrelevant. And every championship team gets blessed with a little luck (i.e., MSU's "trouble with the punt snap" game at UM eventually enabling their playoff appearance).

Sure, the criticism of Fleck's narcissistic/car salesguy personality is 100% valid, and has been hashed out in great detail. And his recruit-poaching and 'Textgate' left a dirty stain on his legacy here. But still doesn't take away the thrill ride that was 2016, if only to co-celebrate with the 100 players.

(05-17-2018 04:02 AM)Hiller4Hyz09 Wrote:  We won at NW and against OU because Roberts Spillane played 100% through the final second.

I can't, from afar, assume what Spillane's intentions were when he decided to leave in the off-season (although I think we can guess). Or whatever he was thinking about during our disappointing 2017 season.

But, man, I fear to imagine what might've happened if he didn't pick off that pass in the MACC. That drive was building up to the biggest dagger of disappointment in our program history. Ohio was licking their chops, having fun with no pressure, and we were scared to death.

Our 1999 MACC and 2000 loss at CMU would've paled in comparison.

Fleck had about 60 players on D1 scholarship during the 1-11 season. Many left when Cubit was fired ten minutes after the season ended. I'll give Fleck credit for bringing WMU out of the basement, still not sold his culture will work at P5 level. He admitted as much during a Bahama Bowl interview. Maybe PJ just can't stop being PJ.

(05-16-2018 07:47 PM)Aimless1 Wrote:  i was never a fan of peejay. I watched his first season. 1-11, inexcusable. I thought his best year coaching was 2014. Got more out of the team than was reasonable to expect. 2015, under performed. Arguably a good coach could have eked out 2 more wins. Then that "magical" 2016 team.

Luck. Not skill. Not coaching. Luck gave us the win at Northwestern.
Luck. Not skill. Not coaching. Luck gave us the MACC. WMU had superior players, had the better team but Frank Solich had the better game plan, used his inferior players better and if not for a fumble recovery very likely would have won the championship. He was clearly the better coach that night.

All great teams have a bit of luck and the ball bounces their way when they need it. I often questioned his coaching decisions. Not the least of which is why Flacco didn't get mop up duty to help prepare him for the following season. We can argue all you want about whether he had the ability, but we blew so many teams out it was the perfect opportunity to prepare younger players for the following season. Help the program, help the team, not the coach.

No point raking the ex-coach over the coals. He had flaws. He had major flaws. I can also tell you his players would have tried to run through a brick wall for him. Great motivator, but perhaps not a great coach.

At the end of the day you are entitled to your opinion and I to mine. Neither of us is right or wrong. That's why it's just an opinion.

By the way, it wasn't a fumble recovery that sealed the game against Ohio, it was an interception...by Spillane.

I find it amusing that discussing a coaches shortcomings somehow means I (and others) don't or didn't enjoy the 2016 season. Using marriage as a bad analogy, I believe my wife is the most beautiful woman in the world, but I can tell you (but I won't) about her many flaws. I enjoyed every minute of the ride to MACC & Cotton Bowl. I enjoyed 2014 & 2015 as well. 2011 was disappointing on many levels.

Was the ex-coach a huckster? How did his character measure up? Did he put together great game plans? How was his game management? Did the needs of the team come before his personal needs? Did he build the team for the future? Did his recruiting leave critical holes in depth? Did former Bronco players love him? Without question, a very good to great recruiter and an excellent motivator. His players would run through a brick wall if he had asked. I'm okay seeing him, and Cubit before him, and Lester now for who they are ... good & bad. How I measure coaches may or may not be the way you do. Winning matters, but it isn't the only thing that matters.

Some of you need to stop drinking the koolaid and remove your rose colored glasses. It is okay if the coach you adore isn't perfect. Who is?

(05-17-2018 08:15 AM)Aimless1 Wrote:  I find it amusing that discussing a coaches shortcomings somehow means I (and others) don't or didn't enjoy the 2016 season. Using marriage as a bad analogy, I believe my wife is the most beautiful woman in the world, but I can tell you (but I won't) about her many flaws. I enjoyed every minute of the ride to MACC & Cotton Bowl. I enjoyed 2014 & 2015 as well. 2011 was disappointing on many levels.

Was the ex-coach a huckster? How did his character measure up? Did he put together great game plans? How was his game management? Did the needs of the team come before his personal needs? Did he build the team for the future? Did his recruiting leave critical holes in depth? Did former Bronco players love him? Without question, a very good to great recruiter and an excellent motivator. His players would run through a brick wall if he had asked. I'm okay seeing him, and Cubit before him, and Lester now for who they are ... good & bad. How I measure coaches may or may not be the way you do. Winning matters, but it isn't the only thing that matters.

Some of you need to stop drinking the koolaid and remove your rose colored glasses. It is okay if the coach you adore isn't perfect. Who is?

Nice back-pedal, but no... you clearly and continually lay LUCK as the reason behind 2016. “Luck. Not skill. Not coaching.” Over and over again. You attempt to pull the rug out from not only Fleck but all those around him that believed in his vision. And you don’t remember that clearly... it’s was an interception by Spillane that sealed the MAC. Flaws, sure... but your obsession with them seems personal. #LETSRIDE #RORORO #FAMILY... all one in the same... GO BRONCOS!

(05-17-2018 08:15 AM)Aimless1 Wrote:  I find it amusing that discussing a coaches shortcomings somehow means I (and others) don't or didn't enjoy the 2016 season. Using marriage as a bad analogy, I believe my wife is the most beautiful woman in the world, but I can tell you (but I won't) about her many flaws. I enjoyed every minute of the ride to MACC & Cotton Bowl. I enjoyed 2014 & 2015 as well. 2011 was disappointing on many levels.

Was the ex-coach a huckster? How did his character measure up? Did he put together great game plans? How was his game management? Did the needs of the team come before his personal needs? Did he build the team for the future? Did his recruiting leave critical holes in depth? Did former Bronco players love him? Without question, a very good to great recruiter and an excellent motivator. His players would run through a brick wall if he had asked. I'm okay seeing him, and Cubit before him, and Lester now for who they are ... good & bad. How I measure coaches may or may not be the way you do. Winning matters, but it isn't the only thing that matters.

Some of you need to stop drinking the koolaid and remove your rose colored glasses. It is okay if the coach you adore isn't perfect. Who is?

Fair enough.

But your opening reference to the 2016 team sounded really dismissive, coupled with the added sarcasm-quotes around magical, before adding how 'lucky' we were (no skill) in two key games. I think you can see where some of that perception could've been formed.

And it's not like people have a lot of historical posts from you in which to provide context. To many, that was the first comments you've provided about 2016.

Quote:Then that "magical" 2016 team.

(05-17-2018 08:44 AM)Motown Bronco Wrote:  

(05-17-2018 08:15 AM)Aimless1 Wrote:  I find it amusing that discussing a coaches shortcomings somehow means I (and others) don't or didn't enjoy the 2016 season. Using marriage as a bad analogy, I believe my wife is the most beautiful woman in the world, but I can tell you (but I won't) about her many flaws. I enjoyed every minute of the ride to MACC & Cotton Bowl. I enjoyed 2014 & 2015 as well. 2011 was disappointing on many levels.

Was the ex-coach a huckster? How did his character measure up? Did he put together great game plans? How was his game management? Did the needs of the team come before his personal needs? Did he build the team for the future? Did his recruiting leave critical holes in depth? Did former Bronco players love him? Without question, a very good to great recruiter and an excellent motivator. His players would run through a brick wall if he had asked. I'm okay seeing him, and Cubit before him, and Lester now for who they are ... good & bad. How I measure coaches may or may not be the way you do. Winning matters, but it isn't the only thing that matters.

Some of you need to stop drinking the koolaid and remove your rose colored glasses. It is okay if the coach you adore isn't perfect. Who is?

Fair enough.

But your opening reference to the 2016 team sounded really dismissive, coupled with the added sarcasm-quotes around magical, before adding how 'lucky' we were (no skill) in two key games. I think you can see where some of that perception could've been formed.

And it's not like people have a lot of historical posts from you in which to provide context. To many, that was the first comments you've provided about 2016.

Quote:Then that "magical" 2016 team.

The joys of being a newbie. I am always a Bronco and always enjoy our success. You're right MB, I can see how that could be taken different than intended.

No back pedal from me BB. I'm hard pressed to call it coaching skill when Ohio marched down the field for what appeared to be the winning drive and we were out of position and unable to contain them. The ball bounced our way. All great teams get some lucky bounces. Just like I don't give Dantonio coaching credit for the infamous punt recovery for a touch down. Sometimes being lucky is better than being good. Being lucky does not mean unskilled. In fact, we had the best talent in the MAC in 2016. You interpreted two lucky wins as a lucky season, but that is not what I said nor implied. But I can see how you might think that.

(05-17-2018 09:46 AM)Aimless1 Wrote:  The joys of being a newbie. I am always a Bronco and always enjoy our success. You're right MB, I can see how that could be taken different than intended.

No back pedal from me BB. I'm hard pressed to call it coaching skill when Ohio marched down the field for what appeared to be the winning drive and we were out of position and unable to contain them. The ball bounced our way. All great teams get some lucky bounces. Just like I don't give Dantonio coaching credit for the infamous punt recovery for a touch down. Sometimes being lucky is better than being good. Being lucky does not mean unskilled. In fact, we had the best talent in the MAC in 2016. You interpreted two lucky wins as a lucky season, but that is not what I said nor implied. But I can see how you might think that.

I wouldn't necessarily call a clean INT as "lucky." That's the defense's job. Spillane still had to read the QB's eyes in traffic and ultimately catch the pass. This wasn't a case where an OU player just dropped the ball unforced and someone was standing right there to scoop it up.

The MACC second half was the culmination of "Cotton Bowl all depends on this" nerves vs. OU playing loose.

Our 1999 MAC squad was nowhere as good as Marshall. Darnell wasn't out-coaching Bob Pruett. Yet we went up 20-0 at halftime. It's just that the Herd players were walking around stiff and scared (or too arrogant?) until they woke up in the fourth quarter, and we pooped the bed.