(04-12-2018 08:35 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(04-12-2018 12:53 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  I mean, I do think you’ll be eating the bag of corn - there’s a lot of connections between Trump’s organization and organized crime that extend past the 1980s.

Prove it.

hard to believe if these connections exist, the Clinton Campaign would not have exposed and used them in 2016. If they are real, you have to wonder why the CC and DNC stayed their hands on this, unless they too had something to hide.

https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/...ime-213910

That was easy. Just Googlr “Trump mob connections”

(04-12-2018 08:33 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(04-12-2018 12:53 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(04-12-2018 12:11 AM)flash3200 Wrote:  Lad, you are either the most naive adult ever or you are hiding behind your ideology as are others.

I will eat a bag of deer corn if I am wrong, but Michael Cohen is not a mob lawyer. Donald Trump is not a mob boss (he probably had some interaction in the 1980s because you couldn't build a building in NYC without paying the mob). This search warrant was pure political theater. Trump's sex life has nothing to do with collusion or any other perceived crime that could have improperly engineered the election. Michael Cohen taking care of Trump's various personal business does not constitute a criminal enterprise. These search warrants are only used on criminal enterprises. The search warrant was a massive overreach of prosecutor discretion and that is obvious. But yet here we are.

Every honest person has to sit here and think two things 1) Trump is a scummy individual but he is the first person to have a chance to inject classical liberalism into national politics 2) perhaps someone in the Trump org. committed a felony. Maybe it was Trump. There is zero evidence. Let's wait until there is a single byte of evidence before we give a pubic hair of benefit of doubt to the investigative bodies and the mass media in their hysterical prosecution of a man where the crime has yet to be identified.

Or perhaps I just have a different perspective? In my mind, there is no way that Mueller, Rosenstein, and the magistrate who signed off on the search warrant didn’t know, for multiple reasons, that the searching and seizing of documents held by Michael Cohen would cause an epic uproar for reasons that have been discussed. There’s no way those three individuals, and any others associated with the act, were not that naive. And they would be aware that their efforts would be heavily, heavily scrutinized.

And because of that, I am apt to believe that the warrant was just and executed correctly. Neither of our perspectives have any proof at the moment to back up our opinions, but outnumbered obvious biases do cause us to give the benefit of the doubt to different parties in this situation.

Following this logic, there is no way that highly trained cop would have shot that black man in the alley, knowing the uproar it would cause, unless he felt it was fully justified. Therefore, it must have been a good and legal shooting.

Yes, you have a different perspective - the perspective of one defending the witch hunt at any cost.

And you don’t have the opposite perspective?

I won’t even go into why that’s a faulty comparison.

(04-12-2018 11:24 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(04-12-2018 08:35 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(04-12-2018 12:53 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  I mean, I do think you’ll be eating the bag of corn - there’s a lot of connections between Trump’s organization and organized crime that extend past the 1980s.

Prove it.

hard to believe if these connections exist, the Clinton Campaign would not have exposed and used them in 2016. If they are real, you have to wonder why the CC and DNC stayed their hands on this, unless they too had something to hide.

https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/...ime-213910

That was easy. Just Googlr “Trump mob connections”

Right....you can't be successful in NYC real estate without ties to the mob, especially in the 1980s and probably even today albeit on a much smaller scale. That said, the ties are likely only related to what was necessary to complete real estate transactions. Was fraud/bid rigging likely utilized at some point where DJT was straddling the edge of plausible deniability? I would guess that happened several times. Did DJT ever participate in or enable prototypical mob activities such as killing people, dealing drugs, money laundering and the like? I seriously doubt he ever saw any of that, just merely what was required to complete real estate transactions. You might say, "Flash...why was he involved with the mob at all? That sounds like bad ****." I would answer "I don't think anyone has ever been successful in NYC real estate without having either political connections (direct corruption) or mob connections (outsourcing the corruption)." DJT was always a political outsider in NYC so he had to outsource the paying off of government officials. It was literally impossible to buy/sell land or arrange for labor in NYC without paying off no less than 5 groups of people both legitimate and illegitimate.

(04-12-2018 11:24 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(04-12-2018 08:35 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(04-12-2018 12:53 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  I mean, I do think you’ll be eating the bag of corn - there’s a lot of connections between Trump’s organization and organized crime that extend past the 1980s.

Prove it.

hard to believe if these connections exist, the Clinton Campaign would not have exposed and used them in 2016. If they are real, you have to wonder why the CC and DNC stayed their hands on this, unless they too had something to hide.

https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/...ime-213910

That was easy. Just Googlr “Trump mob connections”

Well, that proves it.

What do you getmwhen you google "Clinton mob connections" or "Clinton influence peddling"?

(04-12-2018 11:25 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(04-12-2018 08:33 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(04-12-2018 12:53 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(04-12-2018 12:11 AM)flash3200 Wrote:  Lad, you are either the most naive adult ever or you are hiding behind your ideology as are others.

I will eat a bag of deer corn if I am wrong, but Michael Cohen is not a mob lawyer. Donald Trump is not a mob boss (he probably had some interaction in the 1980s because you couldn't build a building in NYC without paying the mob). This search warrant was pure political theater. Trump's sex life has nothing to do with collusion or any other perceived crime that could have improperly engineered the election. Michael Cohen taking care of Trump's various personal business does not constitute a criminal enterprise. These search warrants are only used on criminal enterprises. The search warrant was a massive overreach of prosecutor discretion and that is obvious. But yet here we are.

Every honest person has to sit here and think two things 1) Trump is a scummy individual but he is the first person to have a chance to inject classical liberalism into national politics 2) perhaps someone in the Trump org. committed a felony. Maybe it was Trump. There is zero evidence. Let's wait until there is a single byte of evidence before we give a pubic hair of benefit of doubt to the investigative bodies and the mass media in their hysterical prosecution of a man where the crime has yet to be identified.

Or perhaps I just have a different perspective? In my mind, there is no way that Mueller, Rosenstein, and the magistrate who signed off on the search warrant didn’t know, for multiple reasons, that the searching and seizing of documents held by Michael Cohen would cause an epic uproar for reasons that have been discussed. There’s no way those three individuals, and any others associated with the act, were not that naive. And they would be aware that their efforts would be heavily, heavily scrutinized.

And because of that, I am apt to believe that the warrant was just and executed correctly. Neither of our perspectives have any proof at the moment to back up our opinions, but outnumbered obvious biases do cause us to give the benefit of the doubt to different parties in this situation.

Following this logic, there is no way that highly trained cop would have shot that black man in the alley, knowing the uproar it would cause, unless he felt it was fully justified. Therefore, it must have been a good and legal shooting.

Yes, you have a different perspective - the perspective of one defending the witch hunt at any cost.

And you don’t have the opposite perspective?

I won’t even go into why that’s a faulty comparison.

No, Lad, I don't have the opposite perspective. I tmay seem that way to you, since you are so invested in defending the witch hunt,. my perspective is that something unfair and probably illegal is happening. i am against that.

(04-12-2018 11:25 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  Or perhaps I just have a different perspective? In my mind, there is no way that Mueller, Rosenstein, and the magistrate who signed off on the search warrant didn’t know, for multiple reasons, that the searching and seizing of documents held by Michael Cohen would cause an epic uproar for reasons that have been discussed. There’s no way those three individuals, and any others associated with the act, were not that naive. And they would be aware that their efforts would be heavily, heavily scrutinized.

Who exactly are Mueller and Rosenstein accountable to? Answer: no one! Sessions has recused himself from doing anything, and Trump presumably opens himself up to impeachment if he fires any of the three of Sessions, Rosenstein, or Mueller. Do you think Rosenstein or Mueller care about public opinion? They aren't politicians running for races, they are career bureaucrats just looking to extend their career and by them attacking the person who wants to drain the swamp they very well will extend their bureaucratic careers by decades if they wish. At this point, it is almost a game to see how much they can get away with before they do get fired because them getting fired might achieve the end goal of the entire investigation (Which isn't stopping Russian interference, it is to remove DJT from office by any means necessary)...it is a big game of chicken.

The only person here who has any shred of accountability is the so-called magistrate.
They might stay anonymous (thus shedding accountability), so we might be left with an empty set among "who is accountable for their unethical actions". Also, we don't know if Mueller & Co. has been magistrate shopping or if they have been trying to green light a raid in the past and have failed to get final approval (things we will never know).

(04-12-2018 11:50 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(04-12-2018 11:25 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(04-12-2018 08:33 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(04-12-2018 12:53 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(04-12-2018 12:11 AM)flash3200 Wrote:  Lad, you are either the most naive adult ever or you are hiding behind your ideology as are others.

I will eat a bag of deer corn if I am wrong, but Michael Cohen is not a mob lawyer. Donald Trump is not a mob boss (he probably had some interaction in the 1980s because you couldn't build a building in NYC without paying the mob). This search warrant was pure political theater. Trump's sex life has nothing to do with collusion or any other perceived crime that could have improperly engineered the election. Michael Cohen taking care of Trump's various personal business does not constitute a criminal enterprise. These search warrants are only used on criminal enterprises. The search warrant was a massive overreach of prosecutor discretion and that is obvious. But yet here we are.

Every honest person has to sit here and think two things 1) Trump is a scummy individual but he is the first person to have a chance to inject classical liberalism into national politics 2) perhaps someone in the Trump org. committed a felony. Maybe it was Trump. There is zero evidence. Let's wait until there is a single byte of evidence before we give a pubic hair of benefit of doubt to the investigative bodies and the mass media in their hysterical prosecution of a man where the crime has yet to be identified.

Or perhaps I just have a different perspective? In my mind, there is no way that Mueller, Rosenstein, and the magistrate who signed off on the search warrant didn’t know, for multiple reasons, that the searching and seizing of documents held by Michael Cohen would cause an epic uproar for reasons that have been discussed. There’s no way those three individuals, and any others associated with the act, were not that naive. And they would be aware that their efforts would be heavily, heavily scrutinized.

And because of that, I am apt to believe that the warrant was just and executed correctly. Neither of our perspectives have any proof at the moment to back up our opinions, but outnumbered obvious biases do cause us to give the benefit of the doubt to different parties in this situation.

Following this logic, there is no way that highly trained cop would have shot that black man in the alley, knowing the uproar it would cause, unless he felt it was fully justified. Therefore, it must have been a good and legal shooting.

Yes, you have a different perspective - the perspective of one defending the witch hunt at any cost.

And you don’t have the opposite perspective?

I won’t even go into why that’s a faulty comparison.

No, Lad, I don't have the opposite perspective. I tmay seem that way to you, since you are so invested in defending the witch hunt,. my perspective is that something unfair and probably illegal is happening. i am against that.

Care to explain that logic? You are yelling witch hunt (literally) and refuting every single thing the opposing view has put forth. How is that not the exact opposite perspective?

(04-12-2018 11:45 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(04-12-2018 11:24 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(04-12-2018 08:35 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(04-12-2018 12:53 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  I mean, I do think you’ll be eating the bag of corn - there’s a lot of connections between Trump’s organization and organized crime that extend past the 1980s.

Prove it.

hard to believe if these connections exist, the Clinton Campaign would not have exposed and used them in 2016. If they are real, you have to wonder why the CC and DNC stayed their hands on this, unless they too had something to hide.

https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/...ime-213910

That was easy. Just Googlr “Trump mob connections”

Well, that proves it.

What do you getmwhen you google "Clinton mob connections" or "Clinton influence peddling"?

Not sure - but have I refused to believe or suggested those connections don’t exist?

(04-12-2018 11:24 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(04-12-2018 08:35 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(04-12-2018 12:53 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  I mean, I do think you’ll be eating the bag of corn - there’s a lot of connections between Trump’s organization and organized crime that extend past the 1980s.

Prove it.

hard to believe if these connections exist, the Clinton Campaign would not have exposed and used them in 2016. If they are real, you have to wonder why the CC and DNC stayed their hands on this, unless they too had something to hide.

https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/...ime-213910

That was easy. Just Googlr “Trump mob connections”

Using the logic exhibited in the Politico piece I have "ties to international drug cartels". Or better yet I have "ties to the Enron scandal" *and* I have "ties to the Solyndra scandal." Lad, you better check to see if there isnt a reward posted for the obvious scalliwag that I am.....

And a Google search of "ancient astronauts maya indians" 'proves' (in your methodology) that the Mayan Indians are actually the genetic offspring of ancient extraterrestrial astronauts. Who woulda thunk?

(04-12-2018 11:58 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(04-12-2018 11:45 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(04-12-2018 11:24 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(04-12-2018 08:35 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(04-12-2018 12:53 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  I mean, I do think you’ll be eating the bag of corn - there’s a lot of connections between Trump’s organization and organized crime that extend past the 1980s.

Prove it.

hard to believe if these connections exist, the Clinton Campaign would not have exposed and used them in 2016. If they are real, you have to wonder why the CC and DNC stayed their hands on this, unless they too had something to hide.

https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/...ime-213910

That was easy. Just Googlr “Trump mob connections”

Well, that proves it.

What do you getmwhen you google "Clinton mob connections" or "Clinton influence peddling"?

Not sure - but have I refused to believe or suggested those connections don’t exist?

I guess you havent googled "Clinton commited crime rogue server" then, have you? (based upon a certain intransigence to believe a crime was committed....)

(04-12-2018 11:52 AM)flash3200 Wrote:  

(04-12-2018 11:25 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  Or perhaps I just have a different perspective? In my mind, there is no way that Mueller, Rosenstein, and the magistrate who signed off on the search warrant didn’t know, for multiple reasons, that the searching and seizing of documents held by Michael Cohen would cause an epic uproar for reasons that have been discussed. There’s no way those three individuals, and any others associated with the act, were not that naive. And they would be aware that their efforts would be heavily, heavily scrutinized.

Who exactly are Mueller and Rosenstein accountable to? Answer: no one! Sessions has recused himself from doing anything, and Trump presumably opens himself up to impeachment if he fires any of the three of Sessions, Rosenstein, or Mueller. Do you think Rosenstein or Mueller care about public opinion? They aren't politicians running for races, they are career bureaucrats just looking to extend their career and by them attacking the person who wants to drain the swamp they very well will extend their bureaucratic careers by decades if they wish. At this point, it is almost a game to see how much they can get away with before they do get fired because them getting fired might achieve the end goal of the entire investigation (Which isn't stopping Russian interference, it is to remove DJT from office by any means necessary)...it is a big game of chicken.

The only person here who has any shred of accountability is the so-called magistrate.
They might stay anonymous (thus shedding accountability), so we might be left with an empty set among "who is accountable for their unethical actions". Also, we don't know if Mueller & Co. has been magistrate shopping or if they have been trying to green light a raid in the past and have failed to get final approval (things we will never know).

The magistrate doesnt prepare the warrant, nor investigates the backing of it, they only sign off on it and what is presented to them. Riddle me this: who prepares the warrant to present to the magistrate?

And gee willikers, I have *never* heard of a warrant basis prepared by the authorities that might 'stretch' the bounds in any slight manner whatsoever? That is unthinkable!!!

[Claude Rains mode] I'm shocked! Shocked to find that authorities stretch the allegations and background in warrant applications.... [/Claude Rains mode]

(04-12-2018 12:09 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:  

(04-12-2018 11:24 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(04-12-2018 08:35 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(04-12-2018 12:53 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  I mean, I do think you’ll be eating the bag of corn - there’s a lot of connections between Trump’s organization and organized crime that extend past the 1980s.

Prove it.

hard to believe if these connections exist, the Clinton Campaign would not have exposed and used them in 2016. If they are real, you have to wonder why the CC and DNC stayed their hands on this, unless they too had something to hide.

https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/...ime-213910

That was easy. Just Googlr “Trump mob connections”

Using the logic exhibited in the Politico piece I have "ties to international drug cartels". Or better yet I have "ties to the Enron scandal" *and* I have "ties to the Solyndra scandal." Lad, you better check to see if there isnt a reward posted for the obvious scalliwag that I am.....

And a Google search of "ancient astronauts maya indians" 'proves' (in your methodology) that the Mayan Indians are actually the genetic offspring of ancient extraterrestrial astronauts. Who woulda thunk?

Ok pal

The Politico piece is pretty dumb and it doesn't provide evidence for any of your supposed points.

It highlights all the reasons that Trump would have gained an advantage by overpaying for construction services, apparently all of which in NYC were controlled by the mob. Shocker...you pay more to the mob and your project actually gets done on time and on budget. What was he supposed to do? Not build a building? Poor boy his projects only to see the union guys picket his projects when the inevitable shakedown comes up?

In Atlantic City, he kept known mob contacts on payroll. Trump Tower was not the only building he has built in Manhattan...I am guessing that providing these no show jobs and inflated parking lot deals etc. allowed him to enjoy a friction free relationship with the 100% mob owned NYC construction industry. This is the back story to literally 100% of any NYC real estate developer like it or not. He went above and beyond to make sure he had a good relationship with these guys, but I am not sure why you should hold it against him when that sort of relationship is required to be successful in that industry.

I kept waiting for the punchline in this story, but it never came. All we get is this:

“Why’d Donald do it?” Barrett said when I put the question to him. “Because he saw these mob guys as pathways to money, and Donald is all about money.”

Did Trump get the money from the mob? Uh, no. The intentional misdirection in the article is not influenced by bias in anyway, I am sure. In fact, he got money from running a legitimate business:

"From a $400 million tax giveaway on his first big project, to getting a casino license, to collecting fees for putting his name on everything from bottled water and buildings to neckties and steaks, Trump’s life has been dedicated to the next big score."

Plus, this article only covers the dark days on the 1980s (like I said earlier) and doesn't say anything about present day dealings (now that the mob has been largely forced out of their old schemes). If anything, this article is exonerating as it is thoroughly researched but only points to evidence that Trump was affiliated with the mob only to secure otherwise unobtainable real estate deals and construction services.

(04-12-2018 01:29 PM)flash3200 Wrote:  The Politico piece is pretty dumb and it doesn't provide evidence for any of your supposed points.

It highlights all the reasons that Trump would have gained an advantage by overpaying for construction services, apparently all of which in NYC were controlled by the mob. Shocker...you pay more to the mob and your project actually gets done on time and on budget. What was he supposed to do? Not build a building? Poor boy his projects only to see the union guys picket his projects when the inevitable shakedown comes up?

In Atlantic City, he kept known mob contacts on payroll. Trump Tower was not the only building he has built in Manhattan...I am guessing that providing these no show jobs and inflated parking lot deals etc. allowed him to enjoy a friction free relationship with the 100% mob owned NYC construction industry. This is the back story to literally 100% of any NYC real estate developer like it or not. He went above and beyond to make sure he had a good relationship with these guys, but I am not sure why you should hold it against him when that sort of relationship is required to be successful in that industry.

I kept waiting for the punchline in this story, but it never came. All we get is this:

“Why’d Donald do it?” Barrett said when I put the question to him. “Because he saw these mob guys as pathways to money, and Donald is all about money.”

Did Trump get the money from the mob? Uh, no. The intentional misdirection in the article is not influenced by bias in anyway, I am sure. In fact, he got money from running a legitimate business:

"From a $400 million tax giveaway on his first big project, to getting a casino license, to collecting fees for putting his name on everything from bottled water and buildings to neckties and steaks, Trump’s life has been dedicated to the next big score."

Plus, this article only covers the dark days on the 1980s (like I said earlier) and doesn't say anything about present day dealings (now that the mob has been largely forced out of their old schemes). If anything, this article is exonerating as it is thoroughly researched but only points to evidence that Trump was affiliated with the mob only to secure otherwise unobtainable real estate deals and construction services.

I was asked for evidence of connections to the mob, not evidence of illegal and corrupt activities. If that latter existed in the public record, wouldn’t Trump be in jail?

(04-12-2018 12:58 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(04-12-2018 12:09 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:  

(04-12-2018 11:24 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(04-12-2018 08:35 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(04-12-2018 12:53 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  I mean, I do think you’ll be eating the bag of corn - there’s a lot of connections between Trump’s organization and organized crime that extend past the 1980s.

Prove it.

hard to believe if these connections exist, the Clinton Campaign would not have exposed and used them in 2016. If they are real, you have to wonder why the CC and DNC stayed their hands on this, unless they too had something to hide.

https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/...ime-213910

That was easy. Just Googlr “Trump mob connections”

Using the logic exhibited in the Politico piece I have "ties to international drug cartels". Or better yet I have "ties to the Enron scandal" *and* I have "ties to the Solyndra scandal." Lad, you better check to see if there isnt a reward posted for the obvious scalliwag that I am.....

And a Google search of "ancient astronauts maya indians" 'proves' (in your methodology) that the Mayan Indians are actually the genetic offspring of ancient extraterrestrial astronauts. Who woulda thunk?

Ok pal

Sorry that your basis for your comment (supposition, that is) falls well short.

Considering that you are the poster boy for definite sourcing instead of supposition I would hope that you would notice that. Or do you truly mean the most ethereal form 'connections' which means 'they might have met at one point, but it is very unknown what transpired'. Which, mind you, describes childhood relationships with families of drug traffickers.

So which is it Lad, the 'they did business' version, or is it the 'they may have met, may have done something, but what exactly we do not know and are pulling out of our ass' version of 'connection'?

(04-12-2018 03:08 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(04-12-2018 01:29 PM)flash3200 Wrote:  The Politico piece is pretty dumb and it doesn't provide evidence for any of your supposed points.

It highlights all the reasons that Trump would have gained an advantage by overpaying for construction services, apparently all of which in NYC were controlled by the mob. Shocker...you pay more to the mob and your project actually gets done on time and on budget. What was he supposed to do? Not build a building? Poor boy his projects only to see the union guys picket his projects when the inevitable shakedown comes up?

In Atlantic City, he kept known mob contacts on payroll. Trump Tower was not the only building he has built in Manhattan...I am guessing that providing these no show jobs and inflated parking lot deals etc. allowed him to enjoy a friction free relationship with the 100% mob owned NYC construction industry. This is the back story to literally 100% of any NYC real estate developer like it or not. He went above and beyond to make sure he had a good relationship with these guys, but I am not sure why you should hold it against him when that sort of relationship is required to be successful in that industry.

I kept waiting for the punchline in this story, but it never came. All we get is this:

“Why’d Donald do it?” Barrett said when I put the question to him. “Because he saw these mob guys as pathways to money, and Donald is all about money.”

Did Trump get the money from the mob? Uh, no. The intentional misdirection in the article is not influenced by bias in anyway, I am sure. In fact, he got money from running a legitimate business:

"From a $400 million tax giveaway on his first big project, to getting a casino license, to collecting fees for putting his name on everything from bottled water and buildings to neckties and steaks, Trump’s life has been dedicated to the next big score."

Plus, this article only covers the dark days on the 1980s (like I said earlier) and doesn't say anything about present day dealings (now that the mob has been largely forced out of their old schemes). If anything, this article is exonerating as it is thoroughly researched but only points to evidence that Trump was affiliated with the mob only to secure otherwise unobtainable real estate deals and construction services.

I was asked for evidence of connections to the mob, not evidence of illegal and corrupt activities. If that latter existed in the public record, wouldn’t Trump be in jail?

Again, since you are in the previous response clinging to the very ethereal extreme of the word 'connections' here in your own defense, I guess I *do* have 'connections' to international drug traffickers.

Why the snark response when that was pointed out?

Or should we say the word 'connections' in a the darkly ominous tone that is the hallmark of Giorgio A. Tsoukalos (the Search for Ancient Aliens dude...), when referring to nebulous and unsubstiantiated items?

Just admit it Lad, your comment on hinting at dark relationships with the mob is pretty much overblown given those 'cites', except the most nebulous form, which, is just a quarter step above mere supposition.

(04-12-2018 03:08 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(04-12-2018 01:29 PM)flash3200 Wrote:  The Politico piece is pretty dumb and it doesn't provide evidence for any of your supposed points.

It highlights all the reasons that Trump would have gained an advantage by overpaying for construction services, apparently all of which in NYC were controlled by the mob. Shocker...you pay more to the mob and your project actually gets done on time and on budget. What was he supposed to do? Not build a building? Poor boy his projects only to see the union guys picket his projects when the inevitable shakedown comes up?

In Atlantic City, he kept known mob contacts on payroll. Trump Tower was not the only building he has built in Manhattan...I am guessing that providing these no show jobs and inflated parking lot deals etc. allowed him to enjoy a friction free relationship with the 100% mob owned NYC construction industry. This is the back story to literally 100% of any NYC real estate developer like it or not. He went above and beyond to make sure he had a good relationship with these guys, but I am not sure why you should hold it against him when that sort of relationship is required to be successful in that industry.

I kept waiting for the punchline in this story, but it never came. All we get is this:

“Why’d Donald do it?” Barrett said when I put the question to him. “Because he saw these mob guys as pathways to money, and Donald is all about money.”

Did Trump get the money from the mob? Uh, no. The intentional misdirection in the article is not influenced by bias in anyway, I am sure. In fact, he got money from running a legitimate business:

"From a $400 million tax giveaway on his first big project, to getting a casino license, to collecting fees for putting his name on everything from bottled water and buildings to neckties and steaks, Trump’s life has been dedicated to the next big score."

Plus, this article only covers the dark days on the 1980s (like I said earlier) and doesn't say anything about present day dealings (now that the mob has been largely forced out of their old schemes). If anything, this article is exonerating as it is thoroughly researched but only points to evidence that Trump was affiliated with the mob only to secure otherwise unobtainable real estate deals and construction services.

I was asked for evidence of connections to the mob, not evidence of illegal and corrupt activities. If that latter existed in the public record, wouldn’t Trump be in jail?

And Obama had connections to serial bombers, right?

(04-12-2018 03:28 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:  

(04-12-2018 03:08 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(04-12-2018 01:29 PM)flash3200 Wrote:  The Politico piece is pretty dumb and it doesn't provide evidence for any of your supposed points.
It highlights all the reasons that Trump would have gained an advantage by overpaying for construction services, apparently all of which in NYC were controlled by the mob. Shocker...you pay more to the mob and your project actually gets done on time and on budget. What was he supposed to do? Not build a building? Poor boy his projects only to see the union guys picket his projects when the inevitable shakedown comes up?
In Atlantic City, he kept known mob contacts on payroll. Trump Tower was not the only building he has built in Manhattan...I am guessing that providing these no show jobs and inflated parking lot deals etc. allowed him to enjoy a friction free relationship with the 100% mob owned NYC construction industry. This is the back story to literally 100% of any NYC real estate developer like it or not. He went above and beyond to make sure he had a good relationship with these guys, but I am not sure why you should hold it against him when that sort of relationship is required to be successful in that industry.
I kept waiting for the punchline in this story, but it never came. All we get is this:
“Why’d Donald do it?” Barrett said when I put the question to him. “Because he saw these mob guys as pathways to money, and Donald is all about money.”
Did Trump get the money from the mob? Uh, no. The intentional misdirection in the article is not influenced by bias in anyway, I am sure. In fact, he got money from running a legitimate business:
"From a $400 million tax giveaway on his first big project, to getting a casino license, to collecting fees for putting his name on everything from bottled water and buildings to neckties and steaks, Trump’s life has been dedicated to the next big score."
Plus, this article only covers the dark days on the 1980s (like I said earlier) and doesn't say anything about present day dealings (now that the mob has been largely forced out of their old schemes). If anything, this article is exonerating as it is thoroughly researched but only points to evidence that Trump was affiliated with the mob only to secure otherwise unobtainable real estate deals and construction services.

I was asked for evidence of connections to the mob, not evidence of illegal and corrupt activities. If that latter existed in the public record, wouldn’t Trump be in jail?

And Obama had connections to serial bombers, right?

Trump clearly had connections to the mob to get deals done. You don't do a casino in Atlantic City without mob connections. You just don't.

Whether those rise to a level of culpable behviour is another matter. When a mobster buys a Big Mac, does that make McDonald's a mob operation?

Lad, you are so upside down on this. You might have legitimately been born last night.

I can safely say that 100% of congressmen are actively involved in practices that are unethical by way of enriching themselves at the cost of providing public service to the citizens of the United States. Even ole Bernie Sanders, who probably ranks as least likely to commit fraud (on account of his being potentially the only pure ideologue in Congress), being the poor boy socialist from Vermont has been able to engulf his wife in a shady land deal with a local college. Congressmen typically see a minimum of a 10x increase in net worth once they set foot on capital hill, and its not the federal government that is paying them. The Clintons were dead broke when they were elected in 1992 but are now worth 8-9 figures. Washington DC has an astonishing amount of rich people and the growth rate is sickening considering they are doing nothing but siphoning funds from the national treasury and not providing benefit to the economy. That is real corruption and fraud that is actively taking place by elected officials.

Trying to frame Donald Trump as some sort of mobster wannabe because he interacted with essential services wholly owned by mobsters 30 years and equating that to some travesty of character that is far below what is required for public service in Washington DC is laughable. Of course Trump doesn't want to talk about his friends Vinny and Fat Joe...everyone knows those guys are career criminals and he would be stupid to openly associate with them. Also, Trump is no boy scout...we all know this. He is a serial litigator, likes to f people over on business deals when he has leverage, and he cheats on his wives as sure as the sun comes up every day. Everyone knew this to be indisputable fact years ago.

But guess what? I, and many other people, give him the benefit of the doubt that he is in Washington solely to attack the corrupt political class and not there to enrich himself like everyone else. He has (or had) a real mandate to go drain the swamp which many people believe is necessary. However, he is going to set an all-time record for amount wealth lost during a political term for national office. Usually people hit the jackpot like the Clintons. Trump will likely see his net worth halved by the time he is done. His intentions are sincere, which you can say about precisely no one else in that hell hole on the Potomac. I don't agree with a good deal of his policy or his actions to date, but he is honestly the first and perhaps only person that has had an honest mandate to take the federal government down a notch or two which is something I strongly believe should happen.

So save your sanctimonious pearl clutching about shady business deals that happened decades ago (I really don't care if they happened 5 years ago like in Aberdeen or whatever was going on w/ Manafort) unless you are willing to hold every single one of those pond scum floating in the Potomac to your supposedly high standard of personal ethics. They would all fail your test if not score much worse than Trump. You are merely practicing selective prosecution to fit your ideology and your prosecution isn't even that good.

(04-12-2018 03:36 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(04-12-2018 03:28 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:  

(04-12-2018 03:08 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(04-12-2018 01:29 PM)flash3200 Wrote:  The Politico piece is pretty dumb and it doesn't provide evidence for any of your supposed points.
It highlights all the reasons that Trump would have gained an advantage by overpaying for construction services, apparently all of which in NYC were controlled by the mob. Shocker...you pay more to the mob and your project actually gets done on time and on budget. What was he supposed to do? Not build a building? Poor boy his projects only to see the union guys picket his projects when the inevitable shakedown comes up?
In Atlantic City, he kept known mob contacts on payroll. Trump Tower was not the only building he has built in Manhattan...I am guessing that providing these no show jobs and inflated parking lot deals etc. allowed him to enjoy a friction free relationship with the 100% mob owned NYC construction industry. This is the back story to literally 100% of any NYC real estate developer like it or not. He went above and beyond to make sure he had a good relationship with these guys, but I am not sure why you should hold it against him when that sort of relationship is required to be successful in that industry.
I kept waiting for the punchline in this story, but it never came. All we get is this:
“Why’d Donald do it?” Barrett said when I put the question to him. “Because he saw these mob guys as pathways to money, and Donald is all about money.”
Did Trump get the money from the mob? Uh, no. The intentional misdirection in the article is not influenced by bias in anyway, I am sure. In fact, he got money from running a legitimate business:
"From a $400 million tax giveaway on his first big project, to getting a casino license, to collecting fees for putting his name on everything from bottled water and buildings to neckties and steaks, Trump’s life has been dedicated to the next big score."
Plus, this article only covers the dark days on the 1980s (like I said earlier) and doesn't say anything about present day dealings (now that the mob has been largely forced out of their old schemes). If anything, this article is exonerating as it is thoroughly researched but only points to evidence that Trump was affiliated with the mob only to secure otherwise unobtainable real estate deals and construction services.

I was asked for evidence of connections to the mob, not evidence of illegal and corrupt activities. If that latter existed in the public record, wouldn’t Trump be in jail?

And Obama had connections to serial bombers, right?

Trump clearly had connections to the mob to get deals done. You don't do a casino in Atlantic City without mob connections. You just don't.

Whether those rise to a level of culpable behviour is another matter. When a mobster buys a Big Mac, does that make McDonald's a mob operation?

Hey look, a reasonable response about the situation.

Agreed about the legality of it being another matter - but if I had to bet, I would put my money on there being illegal issues. Trump regularly employed Felix Sater (a former informat to the FBI who was flipped when he plead guilty to a Russian mob fraud scheme) to work on his projects and promote them, well after the 80s. And heck, Trump was even denied a hotel casino permit in Australia because of them (http://www.newsweek.com/trumps-alleged-m...o-651352).