(03-12-2018 09:15 AM)Seahawkhoops Wrote:  Hell, you all know besides UNCW, Cuse is my allegiance, and IMO they had no business getting in.
Oklahoma lost 9 of it's last 12 games and got in, that's unheard of!

Oklahoma's last road win was December 30th, too. They won a total of 2 road games all season long.

That's a great predictor of success in a tournament setting. Because we all know Oklahoma is hosting the entire tournament, right?

(03-12-2018 09:32 AM)dan10 Wrote:  Eh I am not up in arms about oklahoma getting in. The fact was they built their resume strong enough that despite sucking late, it was enough.

Why, exactly, are early games all of a sudden weighted the same as late season games?

Coaches aren't allowed to have practices with their team until the Fall. They don't even know what they have on their roster until late December. Yet we're supposed to buy it's equally vital to win games in November as it is in February? I don't.

(03-12-2018 09:41 AM)Seahawkhoops Wrote:  No, i didn't but i thought NIT for sure. IF on the road, at a team that has a good following it wouldn't matter.

The problem was all the automatic NIT qualifiers, due to # 1 seeds in other mid-major tournaments going down.

Since nearly all of those mid-major automatic qualifiers had to hit the road in the NIT, there wasn't a spot for Northeastern to be yet another road team.

(03-12-2018 10:07 AM)solohawks Wrote:  Honestly in hindsight, I think Coach Keatts scheduling was smart. 1, maybe 2, marquee non conference games and then a bunch of scrubs you can crush. The committee is not going to reward a mid major so pad your win total.

I would respectfully disagree. Had we not won the championship last year we would have not gotten at at large bid even with what would have been a 28 win season.

It was only in the last decade ago that the CAA had risen to a 3 bids league. And they didn't get their by crushing DIII teams. In fact, the league wouldn't LET you even schedule them.

(03-12-2018 10:20 AM)Seahawk Nation 08 Wrote:  

(03-12-2018 09:32 AM)dan10 Wrote:  Eh I am not up in arms about oklahoma getting in. The fact was they built their resume strong enough that despite sucking late, it was enough.

Why, exactly, are early games all of a sudden weighted the same as late season games?

Coaches aren't allowed to have practices with their team until the Fall. They don't even know what they have on their roster until late December. Yet we're supposed to buy it's equally vital to win games in November as it is in February? I don't.

I could understand weighting the early season in favor of the Mids, because later in the season when the ACC, Big10, Big12, PAC12, SEC are all playing each other and automatically in "big games" the Mids are left playing each other and only hurting their RPIs. There needs to be some sort of system where P5 teams are rewarded for playing tougher Mid Major games in OOC, vs scheduling an absolute cupcake as many of them actually do while avoiding a Mid that has any chance at beating them.

I mean, that's what always makes the NCAA so enjoyable is that you get to see underdog teams take down the big boys. Yet, the NCAA after "too much" underdog success deemed it's not in their economic best interest to have Mids in the Final Four. So they've tried a "slight of hand" punishment over the last several years in order to keep Mids out and/or match them up to guarantee the big money markets make the Four. Allowing a team like OK in is just an embarrassment and an example of them going so far on this garbage to make money that they're gonna lose out eventually. The same way the NFL has become a bastion of public angst... the NCAA is working on it. Especially given their high profile investigations ongoing. The hammer is gonna end up falling.

My bad. Went on a little rant there.

I just think this year's tournament looks a bit boring.

Good luck Charleston.

(03-12-2018 11:23 AM)70shawk Wrote:  

(03-12-2018 10:07 AM)solohawks Wrote:  Honestly in hindsight, I think Coach Keatts scheduling was smart. 1, maybe 2, marquee non conference games and then a bunch of scrubs you can crush. The committee is not going to reward a mid major so pad your win total.

I would respectfully disagree. Had we not won the championship last year we would have not gotten at at large bid even with what would have been a 28 win season.

It was only in the last decade ago that the CAA had risen to a 3 bids league. And they didn't get their by crushing DIII teams. In fact, the league wouldn't LET you even schedule them.

We are not going to get an at large the MTSU way, tough non conference, so why not pad your wins? If you're not getting an at large either way, pad your wins and place are your chips on the 1 marquee non conference P5 game.

Not changing by stance on Non D1 games, but I understand the logic behind have 1 marquee non conference game

(03-12-2018 11:29 AM)solohawks Wrote:  

(03-12-2018 11:23 AM)70shawk Wrote:  

(03-12-2018 10:07 AM)solohawks Wrote:  Honestly in hindsight, I think Coach Keatts scheduling was smart. 1, maybe 2, marquee non conference games and then a bunch of scrubs you can crush. The committee is not going to reward a mid major so pad your win total.

I would respectfully disagree. Had we not won the championship last year we would have not gotten at at large bid even with what would have been a 28 win season.

It was only in the last decade ago that the CAA had risen to a 3 bids league. And they didn't get their by crushing DIII teams. In fact, the league wouldn't LET you even schedule them.

We are not going to get an at large the MTSU way, tough non conference, so why not pad your wins? If you're not getting an at large either way, pad your wins and place are your chips on the 1 marquee non conference P5 game.

Not changing by stance on Non D1 games, but I understand the logic behind have 1 marquee non conference game

The NCAA should be absolutely ashamed of itself for punishing MTSU like that. That to me is the barometer reading that says, "We don't care, you don't belong here."

(03-12-2018 11:29 AM)solohawks Wrote:  

(03-12-2018 11:23 AM)70shawk Wrote:  

(03-12-2018 10:07 AM)solohawks Wrote:  Honestly in hindsight, I think Coach Keatts scheduling was smart. 1, maybe 2, marquee non conference games and then a bunch of scrubs you can crush. The committee is not going to reward a mid major so pad your win total.

I would respectfully disagree. Had we not won the championship last year we would have not gotten at at large bid even with what would have been a 28 win season.

It was only in the last decade ago that the CAA had risen to a 3 bids league. And they didn't get their by crushing DIII teams. In fact, the league wouldn't LET you even schedule them.

We are not going to get an at large the MTSU way, tough non conference, so why not pad your wins? If you're not getting an at large either way, pad your wins and place are your chips on the 1 marquee non conference P5 game.

Not changing by stance on Non D1 games, but I understand the logic behind have 1 marquee non conference game

I will agree to this extent: we won't get an at large bid through non conference wins if we don't play anybody.

I don't see any benefit of having a "great" record if you get there by beating up the Little Sisters of The Poor's Junior Varsity Team, and then that "great" record leads you exactly no place post-season.

Heck, if one wants to concede that the only way to get to the NCAA's is to win the CAA tournament, your non-conference record doesn't matter at all. You may as well go on the road for a bunch of money games and make as much coin as you can, rather than run up a better out of conference record that helps you not at all in getting someplace.

(03-12-2018 11:39 AM)70shawk Wrote:  Heck, if one wants to concede that the only way to get to the NCAA's is to win the CAA tournament, your non-conference record doesn't matter at all. You may as well go on the road for a bunch of money games and make as much coin as you can, rather than run up a better out of conference record that helps you not at all in getting someplace.

LBSU has done that approach in recent years. The worst part for MTSU this year was all 3 of those top tier losses in their preseason tournament were close. None of those teams beat MTSU soundly (lost by 6 to Auburn, 5 to USC, and 3 to Miami).

(03-12-2018 12:05 PM)dan10 Wrote:  

(03-12-2018 11:39 AM)70shawk Wrote:  Heck, if one wants to concede that the only way to get to the NCAA's is to win the CAA tournament, your non-conference record doesn't matter at all. You may as well go on the road for a bunch of money games and make as much coin as you can, rather than run up a better out of conference record that helps you not at all in getting someplace.

LBSU has done that approach in recent years. The worst part for MTSU this year was all 3 of those top tier losses in their preseason tournament were close. None of those teams beat MTSU soundly (lost by 6 to Auburn, 5 to USC, and 3 to Miami).

Mike Davis did that with Texas Southern this year. Started 0-13 and his team is dancing. I'm sure he made some good money for his program while doing it.

(03-12-2018 12:20 PM)Gary Miller Wrote:  

(03-12-2018 12:05 PM)dan10 Wrote:  

(03-12-2018 11:39 AM)70shawk Wrote:  Heck, if one wants to concede that the only way to get to the NCAA's is to win the CAA tournament, your non-conference record doesn't matter at all. You may as well go on the road for a bunch of money games and make as much coin as you can, rather than run up a better out of conference record that helps you not at all in getting someplace.

LBSU has done that approach in recent years. The worst part for MTSU this year was all 3 of those top tier losses in their preseason tournament were close. None of those teams beat MTSU soundly (lost by 6 to Auburn, 5 to USC, and 3 to Miami).

Mike Davis did that with Texas Southern this year. Started 0-13 and his team is dancing. I'm sure he made some good money for his program while doing it.

True, but SWAC teams and those really low majors do it routinely. I think LBSU was the only team I can recall in recent memory do it while having a decent squad themselves. I think think they still lost most of them, but they were competitive doing so in some.

The problem you have is the criteria is always a moving target. So even if you load up and win several, they will change what is important and find a new way to keep a mid out. 06-07 for Drexel was the epitome of that. Most road wins in the NCAA including some over highly ranked teams (Nova and Syracuse) so they made sure that bad losses to conference mates was the deciding factor.

The problem for mids is that if you beef up your schedule and have success, the only way to be considered is to run roughshod on the conference. There is no room to make even a single mistake to a lowly ranked team or else it is a reason to keep you out. The other way to do it, is to as a conference collude into forcing inflated RPI's. So that as a collective group, by the time everyone plays each other your SOS will be high (like majors) just by playing each other. Though the risk is then poor NCSOS which would then be held against you like OK St

Outside auto bids, what is it the NCAA would like in a participant? If you're talking mid majors, it's PROOF they can beat a good P5 team if given the chance. Then they get the "Cinderella" audience opportunity. Otherwise, they'll take the money with a larger audience watching Alabama over UNCW and the fact they have a national presence that will fill a stadium. In the end, it's about the money.

You can't show you can beat a P5 team if you don't play them. Yes it will be on the road, and you won't have a great shot. But it IS a shot. Plus, you can bank some coin while you're at it. And if you have a really good team you can get the upset. Also, there isn't a huge RPI knock if you lose an away game anyhow.

If we can get an agreement, i'd take at least two P5 shots either in a tournament or at an away game and shelve the DII games. Take the cash and a shot at an upset. Be strategic in who you target. You can get a lot of bang for your buck against a Georgia, Alabama, Georgia Tech, Arkansas, Miss. St.. Big names who aren't basketball powerhouses, but look good on paper.

2011 VCU got an at-large with a 20-12 record, 11-6 conference. But, they beat UCLA on the road and Wake Forest. Both in the NIT tipoff. That was it. No other big OOC wins and losses to Tennessee, South Florida, Richmond, Tulane, UAB. So, they were 2-7 in those games, but they played 9 decent OOC teams.

The problem you can have is finding the right teams. If everyone knows you are good or going to be good, your options for buy games becomes severely limited, and that is because a buy game is meant to be a victory. They want a victory so if there is a chance at an upset it is hard to get biters. We saw that side as well when we gave Louisville their first loss in the Yum! Center. We knew that season was building into 2011-2012. But by upsetting them a year early, our options became limited because teams knew we were going to be good. We were told by quite a few teams who were looking for buy games "no thanks". So the big guys are still picky on who they pick, they do not just give an open date and accept just anyone who comes calling.

(03-12-2018 11:39 AM)70shawk Wrote:  

(03-12-2018 11:29 AM)solohawks Wrote:  

(03-12-2018 11:23 AM)70shawk Wrote:  

(03-12-2018 10:07 AM)solohawks Wrote:  Honestly in hindsight, I think Coach Keatts scheduling was smart. 1, maybe 2, marquee non conference games and then a bunch of scrubs you can crush. The committee is not going to reward a mid major so pad your win total.

I would respectfully disagree. Had we not won the championship last year we would have not gotten at at large bid even with what would have been a 28 win season.

It was only in the last decade ago that the CAA had risen to a 3 bids league. And they didn't get their by crushing DIII teams. In fact, the league wouldn't LET you even schedule them.

We are not going to get an at large the MTSU way, tough non conference, so why not pad your wins? If you're not getting an at large either way, pad your wins and place are your chips on the 1 marquee non conference P5 game.

Not changing by stance on Non D1 games, but I understand the logic behind have 1 marquee non conference game

I will agree to this extent: we won't get an at large bid through non conference wins if we don't play anybody.

I don't see any benefit of having a "great" record if you get there by beating up the Little Sisters of The Poor's Junior Varsity Team, and then that "great" record leads you exactly no place post-season.

Heck, if one wants to concede that the only way to get to the NCAA's is to win the CAA tournament, your non-conference record doesn't matter at all. You may as well go on the road for a bunch of money games and make as much coin as you can, rather than run up a better out of conference record that helps you not at all in getting someplace.

I see that point too. ST Mary's got left out b/c their OOC sucked despite a gaudy record. But MTSU also got left out despite being competitive in virtually all of their games and having a great record as well.

That is literally a lose lose situation. Do what St Mary's did, no bid. Do what MTSU did, no bid.

What would MTSU have had to do differently to get an at large bid? 1,2, or 3 of the those 3 non P5 games? We are pretty close to requiring mid majors to be perfect, minus a conference tournament championship, to get an at large bid

(03-12-2018 12:42 PM)82hawk Wrote:  Outside auto bids, what is it the NCAA would like in a participant? If you're talking mid majors, it's PROOF they can beat a good P5 team if given the chance. Then they get the "Cinderella" audience opportunity. Otherwise, they'll take the money with a larger audience watching Alabama over UNCW and the fact they have a national presence that will fill a stadium. In the end, it's about the money.

You can't show you can beat a P5 team if you don't play them. Yes it will be on the road, and you won't have a great shot. But it IS a shot. Plus, you can bank some coin while you're at it. And if you have a really good team you can get the upset. Also, there isn't a huge RPI knock if you lose an away game anyhow.

If we can get an agreement, i'd take at least two P5 shots either in a tournament or at an away game and shelve the DII games. Take the cash and a shot at an upset. Be strategic in who you target. You can get a lot of bang for your buck against a Georgia, Alabama, Georgia Tech, Arkansas, Miss. St.. Big names who aren't basketball powerhouses, but look good on paper.

2011 VCU got an at-large with a 20-12 record, 11-6 conference. But, they beat UCLA on the road and Wake Forest. Both in the NIT tipoff. That was it. No other big OOC wins and losses to Tennessee, South Florida, Richmond, Tulane, UAB. So, they were 2-7 in those games, but they played 9 decent OOC teams.

Sure, you can possibly pull that off. However, VCU was still sneaking up on teams without national recognition up until their cinderella run. The CAA knew they were decent/good, but that's about it.

Think about the teams we had the last couple years. I doubt too many majors would have thought that juice was worth the squeeze to schedule us. That's the real predicament the Mids are in. Even if they want to have a schedule like MTSU's... you have to find the P5's that would agree to it. Most P5 teams with Top 25 hopes are going to deny all day, because they know they have enough P5 recognition within their own conference to where they can win and get it done internally. They're not forced to look at 7-9 games a season and pin their post-season hopes on that short span of games at the beginning of the season.

(03-12-2018 03:08 PM)CG_Hawk06 Wrote:  

(03-12-2018 12:42 PM)82hawk Wrote:  Outside auto bids, what is it the NCAA would like in a participant? If you're talking mid majors, it's PROOF they can beat a good P5 team if given the chance. Then they get the "Cinderella" audience opportunity. Otherwise, they'll take the money with a larger audience watching Alabama over UNCW and the fact they have a national presence that will fill a stadium. In the end, it's about the money.

You can't show you can beat a P5 team if you don't play them. Yes it will be on the road, and you won't have a great shot. But it IS a shot. Plus, you can bank some coin while you're at it. And if you have a really good team you can get the upset. Also, there isn't a huge RPI knock if you lose an away game anyhow.

If we can get an agreement, i'd take at least two P5 shots either in a tournament or at an away game and shelve the DII games. Take the cash and a shot at an upset. Be strategic in who you target. You can get a lot of bang for your buck against a Georgia, Alabama, Georgia Tech, Arkansas, Miss. St.. Big names who aren't basketball powerhouses, but look good on paper.

2011 VCU got an at-large with a 20-12 record, 11-6 conference. But, they beat UCLA on the road and Wake Forest. Both in the NIT tipoff. That was it. No other big OOC wins and losses to Tennessee, South Florida, Richmond, Tulane, UAB. So, they were 2-7 in those games, but they played 9 decent OOC teams.

Sure, you can possibly pull that off. However, VCU was still sneaking up on teams without national recognition up until their cinderella run. The CAA knew they were decent/good, but that's about it.

Think about the teams we had the last couple years. I doubt too many majors would have thought that juice was worth the squeeze to schedule us. That's the real predicament the Mids are in. Even if they want to have a schedule like MTSU's... you have to find the P5's that would agree to it. Most P5 teams with Top 25 hopes are going to deny all day, because they know they have enough P5 recognition within their own conference to where they can win and get it done internally. They're not forced to look at 7-9 games a season and pin their post-season hopes on that short span of games at the beginning of the season.

Could UNCW could get a schedule with Tennessee, South Florida, Richmond, Tulane, and UAB on it?

(03-12-2018 03:28 PM)solohawks Wrote:  

(03-12-2018 03:08 PM)CG_Hawk06 Wrote:  

(03-12-2018 12:42 PM)82hawk Wrote:  Outside auto bids, what is it the NCAA would like in a participant? If you're talking mid majors, it's PROOF they can beat a good P5 team if given the chance. Then they get the "Cinderella" audience opportunity. Otherwise, they'll take the money with a larger audience watching Alabama over UNCW and the fact they have a national presence that will fill a stadium. In the end, it's about the money.

You can't show you can beat a P5 team if you don't play them. Yes it will be on the road, and you won't have a great shot. But it IS a shot. Plus, you can bank some coin while you're at it. And if you have a really good team you can get the upset. Also, there isn't a huge RPI knock if you lose an away game anyhow.

If we can get an agreement, i'd take at least two P5 shots either in a tournament or at an away game and shelve the DII games. Take the cash and a shot at an upset. Be strategic in who you target. You can get a lot of bang for your buck against a Georgia, Alabama, Georgia Tech, Arkansas, Miss. St.. Big names who aren't basketball powerhouses, but look good on paper.

2011 VCU got an at-large with a 20-12 record, 11-6 conference. But, they beat UCLA on the road and Wake Forest. Both in the NIT tipoff. That was it. No other big OOC wins and losses to Tennessee, South Florida, Richmond, Tulane, UAB. So, they were 2-7 in those games, but they played 9 decent OOC teams.

Sure, you can possibly pull that off. However, VCU was still sneaking up on teams without national recognition up until their cinderella run. The CAA knew they were decent/good, but that's about it.

Think about the teams we had the last couple years. I doubt too many majors would have thought that juice was worth the squeeze to schedule us. That's the real predicament the Mids are in. Even if they want to have a schedule like MTSU's... you have to find the P5's that would agree to it. Most P5 teams with Top 25 hopes are going to deny all day, because they know they have enough P5 recognition within their own conference to where they can win and get it done internally. They're not forced to look at 7-9 games a season and pin their post-season hopes on that short span of games at the beginning of the season.

Could UNCW could get a schedule with Tennessee, South Florida, Richmond, Tulane, and UAB on it?

Sounds like we already have UNC......

(03-12-2018 03:08 PM)CG_Hawk06 Wrote:  

(03-12-2018 12:42 PM)82hawk Wrote:  Outside auto bids, what is it the NCAA would like in a participant? If you're talking mid majors, it's PROOF they can beat a good P5 team if given the chance. Then they get the "Cinderella" audience opportunity. Otherwise, they'll take the money with a larger audience watching Alabama over UNCW and the fact they have a national presence that will fill a stadium. In the end, it's about the money.

You can't show you can beat a P5 team if you don't play them. Yes it will be on the road, and you won't have a great shot. But it IS a shot. Plus, you can bank some coin while you're at it. And if you have a really good team you can get the upset. Also, there isn't a huge RPI knock if you lose an away game anyhow.

If we can get an agreement, i'd take at least two P5 shots either in a tournament or at an away game and shelve the DII games. Take the cash and a shot at an upset. Be strategic in who you target. You can get a lot of bang for your buck against a Georgia, Alabama, Georgia Tech, Arkansas, Miss. St.. Big names who aren't basketball powerhouses, but look good on paper.

2011 VCU got an at-large with a 20-12 record, 11-6 conference. But, they beat UCLA on the road and Wake Forest. Both in the NIT tipoff. That was it. No other big OOC wins and losses to Tennessee, South Florida, Richmond, Tulane, UAB. So, they were 2-7 in those games, but they played 9 decent OOC teams.

Sure, you can possibly pull that off. However, VCU was still sneaking up on teams without national recognition up until their cinderella run. The CAA knew they were decent/good, but that's about it.

Think about the teams we had the last couple years. I doubt too many majors would have thought that juice was worth the squeeze to schedule us. That's the real predicament the Mids are in. Even if they want to have a schedule like MTSU's... you have to find the P5's that would agree to it. Most P5 teams with Top 25 hopes are going to deny all day, because they know they have enough P5 recognition within their own conference to where they can win and get it done internally. They're not forced to look at 7-9 games a season and pin their post-season hopes on that short span of games at the beginning of the season.

Umm, VCU was 27-9 the year prior, and won the NIT. It was Shaka Smarts first year. They had beaten #17 Oklahoma and lost to ODU in the CAA finals. They didn't surprise anyone. The fact is, P5 schools want to play at home as much as they can, and they have to be careful not to have a bunch of cupcakes OOC either. As long as you aren't scheduling lambs to the slaughter games, it's a low risk high reward opportunity if you can get it. Clemson was actually a good OOC get, they just happened to be on the rise and caught us at the right time.

That's why i'd like to see a few, but not a lot, of those pay to play games. 2-3 is ideal. And UCLA and Oklahoma aren't UNC and Duke. They represent high name value but not high quality programs.

(03-12-2018 03:56 PM)82hawk Wrote:  

(03-12-2018 03:08 PM)CG_Hawk06 Wrote:  

(03-12-2018 12:42 PM)82hawk Wrote:  Outside auto bids, what is it the NCAA would like in a participant? If you're talking mid majors, it's PROOF they can beat a good P5 team if given the chance. Then they get the "Cinderella" audience opportunity. Otherwise, they'll take the money with a larger audience watching Alabama over UNCW and the fact they have a national presence that will fill a stadium. In the end, it's about the money.

You can't show you can beat a P5 team if you don't play them. Yes it will be on the road, and you won't have a great shot. But it IS a shot. Plus, you can bank some coin while you're at it. And if you have a really good team you can get the upset. Also, there isn't a huge RPI knock if you lose an away game anyhow.

If we can get an agreement, i'd take at least two P5 shots either in a tournament or at an away game and shelve the DII games. Take the cash and a shot at an upset. Be strategic in who you target. You can get a lot of bang for your buck against a Georgia, Alabama, Georgia Tech, Arkansas, Miss. St.. Big names who aren't basketball powerhouses, but look good on paper.

2011 VCU got an at-large with a 20-12 record, 11-6 conference. But, they beat UCLA on the road and Wake Forest. Both in the NIT tipoff. That was it. No other big OOC wins and losses to Tennessee, South Florida, Richmond, Tulane, UAB. So, they were 2-7 in those games, but they played 9 decent OOC teams.

Sure, you can possibly pull that off. However, VCU was still sneaking up on teams without national recognition up until their cinderella run. The CAA knew they were decent/good, but that's about it.

Think about the teams we had the last couple years. I doubt too many majors would have thought that juice was worth the squeeze to schedule us. That's the real predicament the Mids are in. Even if they want to have a schedule like MTSU's... you have to find the P5's that would agree to it. Most P5 teams with Top 25 hopes are going to deny all day, because they know they have enough P5 recognition within their own conference to where they can win and get it done internally. They're not forced to look at 7-9 games a season and pin their post-season hopes on that short span of games at the beginning of the season.

Umm, VCU was 27-9 the year prior, and won the NIT. It was Shaka Smarts first year. They had beaten #17 Oklahoma and lost to ODU in the CAA finals. They didn't surprise anyone. The fact is, P5 schools want to play at home as much as they can, and they have to be careful not to have a bunch of cupcakes OOC either. As long as you aren't scheduling lambs to the slaughter games, it's a low risk high reward opportunity if you can get it. Clemson was actually a good OOC get, they just happened to be on the rise and caught us at the right time.

That's why i'd like to see a few, but not a lot, of those pay to play games. 2-3 is ideal. And UCLA and Oklahoma aren't UNC and Duke. They represent high name value but not high quality programs.

So with UCLA a team that has gone to the tourney and had success they are not a high quality Program? Oklahoma has been up and down but has several deep runs in the last 15 or so years, Tourney almost every year since the century flip how are they not quality? When you compare most to UNC and Duke very few will measure up. But to state they are not high quality programs simply isn't true(or as you like to say "fact based")