Problem: There are too many mass murders. Some by gun. Some by bomb. Some by car. What is to be done?

Solution: ?

Some of the issues from my armchair coaching position:

1) Technology will continue to drive down and democratize power. Including the power to be lethal. This problem will not go away but only get worse. Now that 3D CAD files are openly available on the internet to make your own production quality milled firearm from metal with no knowledge necessary on your part ... we're nearing the death of feasible gun control if we haven't already crossed it. So to me, this is kind of a non-starter. It's a ham fisted attempt to address only part of the problem, and mostly by trying to use overwhelming government force to make the problem go away. And any time a government wants to round up and confiscate arms and is serious about it .... you have pretty damn good historical reason to be uneasy about that.

2) When will mental health be taken seriously? There seems to be, based on the data available, a correlation between higher IQ and higher risk of mental health issues. It kind of makes sense ... in biology there is no such thing as a free lunch. Ask a mom how high the cost is for having a baby with a huge brain. Well now we're seeing costs on the back end too. And so far in this country our approach to mental health, as far as I can ascertain, is to jam a fistful of SSRIs into your gaping craw and tell you to go away and be happy.

3) We are without question the wealthiest country in human history. It's kinda depressing how far we have to go when this is the best system ever devised for generating wealth ... and yet we're still pretty damn unhappy about things collectively speaking. There's probably some real biting criticism of American society in there, but I haven't mined further. Because there are other countries where the average citizen is demonstrably happier, despite being demonstrably poorer and with lesser average health outcomes. But is being happy even the right goal? I'm sure you can find loads of stupid but very happy critters in a zoo. Maybe eternal discontent is the price for having a species constantly willing to improve and go further.

(03-02-2018 11:57 AM)georgia_tech_swagger Wrote:  Some of the issues from my armchair coaching position:

1) Technology will continue to drive down and democratize power. Including the power to be lethal. This problem will not go away but only get worse. Now that 3D CAD files are openly available on the internet to make your own production quality milled firearm from metal with no knowledge necessary on your part ... we're nearing the death of feasible gun control if we haven't already crossed it. So to me, this is kind of a non-starter. It's a ham fisted attempt to address only part of the problem, and mostly by trying to use overwhelming government force to make the problem go away. And any time a government wants to round up and confiscate arms and is serious about it .... you have pretty damn good historical reason to be uneasy about that.

2) When will mental health be taken seriously? There seems to be, based on the data available, a correlation between higher IQ and higher risk of mental health issues. It kind of makes sense ... in biology there is no such thing as a free lunch. Ask a mom how high the cost is for having a baby with a huge brain. Well now we're seeing costs on the back end too. And so far in this country our approach to mental health, as far as I can ascertain, is to jam a fistful of SSRIs into your gaping craw and tell you to go away and be happy.

3) We are without question the wealthiest country in human history. It's kinda depressing how far we have to go when this is the best system ever devised for generating wealth ... and yet we're still pretty damn unhappy about things collectively speaking. There's probably some real biting criticism of American society in there, but I haven't mined further. Because there are other countries where the average citizen is demonstrably happier, despite being demonstrably poorer and with lesser average health outcomes. But is being happy even the right goal? I'm sure you can find loads of stupid but very happy critters in a zoo. Maybe eternal discontent is the price for having a species constantly willing to improve and go further.

On #1, in addition to the internet and 3D printers, there are already 300 million guns and porous borders.

The real question is why, which you touch on in #2 and #3.

On #2, while we don't want to go back to mass incarceration of the mentally ill, we should have some very small increase.

And instead of fretting about guns, we need some serious discussion of #3. What is it about our society that causes people to do these things? We have a history of being more violent than Europe without their social structures and stability and our frontier, but things are getting worse, not getting better. I have some theories, but no definitive answers.

And why do we seem to have more problems with #2? Clearly there are issues with our veterans and PTSD or maybe even CTE is a factor. We owe it to our veterans to try to figure out what is going on. But its not confined to veterans as students and other people are doing these things. In addition, there is no doubt there is mass mental illness in the Democratic Party. Not trying to be partisan, but the extremity of the anti-Trump feeling and the actions people take in contradiction to their normal behavior is a clear sign of mental instability. Its concerning that so many people can be triggered over the edge so easily. Maybe people aren't as good as I assume they are (we do have Nazi Germany as an example of what normal people can do).

1. Permit and train every school administrator, teacher and coach who wants to, to carry a concealed firearm into administrative offices, classes, and after school events.

2. Improve control of access to school properties by using locked, pass-coded doors or other discriminating entry systems.

3. Empowered citizen CCP holders to carry on school property. Armed citizens have ended three school shootings (Pearl Mississippi, Edinboro Pennsylvania and the Appalachian Law School)

4. Refute, dispute and debunk the stampede gun-ban mentality everywhere its encountered. Spree shooters have no clear mind; they only obeys laws of physics, not morality or ethics. And by being an evil human, the spree shooter has no mercy and no moral scruples. As a gun owner I'm no more responsible for a mental patient with guns than I am for eight immigrants with boxcutters or two kids with home-made pressure cooker bombs.

(I think that we’re all pretending to have a debate about gun control but we’re really having a debate about mental illness and whether big enough government can control it.)

Control of assault rifles may save a few lives, but the impact would be minimal. The deadliest school killing was a bombing in 1927. Columbine was supposed to be a bombing and ended up being handguns.

Controlling handguns too would definitely save some lives. But then you are getting into a issue with a police state. The tradeoff is too high. Police states have killed and intellectually strangled millions. And some mass killings would be worse because without guns, people would turn to bombs. Its not like getting rid of guns, would eliminate the problem.

Plus as you mention, 3D printing will make it more difficult to control anything. And its not even remotely realistic to believe the government could confiscate the vast majority of the guns already here, even if there was political will. So that makes gun control even more of a waste of time for dealing with the issues.

(03-02-2018 12:18 PM)Lord Stanley Wrote:  1. Permit and train every school administrator, teacher and coach who wants to, to carry a concealed firearm into administrative offices, classes, and after school events.

2. Improve control of access to school properties by using locked, pass-coded doors or other discriminating entry systems.

3. Empowered citizen CCP holders to carry on school property. Armed citizens have ended three school shootings (Pearl Mississippi, Edinboro Pennsylvania and the Appalachian Law School)

4. Refute, dispute and debunk the stampede gun-ban mentality everywhere its encountered. Spree shooters have no clear mind; they only obeys laws of physics, not morality or ethics. And by being an evil human, the spree shooter has no mercy and no moral scruples. As a gun owner I'm no more responsible for a mental patient with guns than I am for eight immigrants with boxcutters or two kids with home-made pressure cooker bombs.

(I think that we’re all pretending to have a debate about gun control but we’re really having a debate about mental illness and whether big enough government can control it.)

1) I don't really like the idea of more guns on school campuses. They will get stolen like everything else.

2) On new construction, yes, but a lot of our schools just are not designed to make that easy. My first high school had 3 parallel buildings. The two on the ends had entries on both ends and one in the middle. The middle one had a cafeteria on the south and west side with glassed in sides and with multiple entrances and exits, along with an exit on the east and north side. That basic design was used in a number of schools built in the 60s in Houston. And in addition to doors, there are windows everywhere. You obviously could put up a fence around the property, but fences are easy to get over. We had a serial rapist attack a woman in our fenced in townhome property in Houston. I suspect I saw him a month or so before the attack. I did see someone who fit the description, thin 5'6"-5'8", sandy haired, who walked through our parking lot and went over a 5 foot wooden fence without breaking stride.

(03-02-2018 12:15 PM)bullet Wrote:  And instead of fretting about guns, we need some serious discussion of #3. What is it about our society that causes people to do these things? We have a history of being more violent than Europe without their social structures and stability and our frontier, but things are getting worse, not getting better. I have some theories, but no definitive answers.

I think some of it is, and this is very very hard to communicate thoroughly and effectively, so I'll just phone in a reference here .... I see Cain in a lot of these people. And I'm an atheist. So I say Cain with total clarity to the vision of such a horrible thing to say. And some of it is media gives these people a platform they'd never otherwise have. Why quietly kill yourself when you can make a loud demonstration of just how thoroughly disgusted you were by killing innocent people along the way? Again ... very Cain-esk. And the real terrifying thing about the Cain analogy isn't the invocation of Cain ... it's the implication of a future Tubal-Cain.

(03-02-2018 12:15 PM)bullet Wrote:  Maybe people aren't as good as I assume they are (we do have Nazi Germany as an example of what normal people can do).

You sound like you're ready to devour everything Jordan Peterson says and writes. Because that's the door you're standing in front of now. I went through it. I think I'm way better for it. And yes, that means I now think most people are fundamentally BAD, not good, which is a departure from where I was particularly as an early libertarian.

And, if you head down that Peterson road, you'll find that maybe that explains the true origins of Western religion: A best effort attempt to provide a framework for the world to put the individual as champion above the group because we probably spent several million years murdering each other in the name of groups. And it probably took oceans of blood for those lessons to be codified into words.

(03-02-2018 11:49 AM)georgia_tech_swagger Wrote:  Problem: There are too many mass murders. Some by gun. Some by bomb. Some by car. What is to be done?

Solution: ?

1. Increase the level of intrusive governmental surveillance performed on citizens while limiting personal freedoms;
2. Take steps to make targets way less “soft.”
3. A combination of 1 & 2.

That’s the list, unfortunately.

(03-02-2018 11:49 AM)georgia_tech_swagger Wrote:  Problem: There are too many mass murders. Some by gun. Some by bomb. Some by car. What is to be done?

Solution: ?

Wait a minute, I took a closer look at your commnet.

Are we sure there are "Too many mass murders?" Does the level of response correspond to the number of mass murders?

Most of us don’t have to address mass murders. If we take mass murder to mean = gun violence, then outside of big cities the murder rate is comparable with that of Japan. More or less, if you avoid the children of unwed parents, the illegal drug trade, gun free zones, and domestic difficulties, your odds of being mass murdered are almost zero, and single murdered are tiny.

(03-02-2018 03:47 PM)Lord Stanley Wrote:  

(03-02-2018 11:49 AM)georgia_tech_swagger Wrote:  Problem: There are too many mass murders. Some by gun. Some by bomb. Some by car. What is to be done?

Solution: ?

Wait a minute, I took a closer look at your commnet.

Are we sure there are "Too many mass murders?" Does the level of response correspond to the number of mass murders?

Most of us don’t have to address mass murders. If we take mass murder to mean = gun violence, then outside of big cities the murder rate is comparable with that of Japan. More or less, if you avoid the children of unwed parents, the illegal drug trade, gun free zones, and domestic difficulties, your odds of being mass murdered are almost zero, and single murdered are tiny.

With politics ... perception is reality. Don't forget that the only reason we have a welfare state is because people are jealous, lazy, petty, vindictive, resentful, and bitter. Not all of them. But enough to win an election quite handily. (That is admittedly all conjecture on my part, but if somebody wants to debate further on it ...)

So unless the marching orders for a fix are "we're not going to publicize this stuff nationally anymore" ....

(03-02-2018 03:50 PM)georgia_tech_swagger Wrote:  

(03-02-2018 03:47 PM)Lord Stanley Wrote:  

(03-02-2018 11:49 AM)georgia_tech_swagger Wrote:  Problem: There are too many mass murders. Some by gun. Some by bomb. Some by car. What is to be done?

Solution: ?

Wait a minute, I took a closer look at your commnet.

Are we sure there are "Too many mass murders?" Does the level of response correspond to the number of mass murders?

Most of us don’t have to address mass murders. If we take mass murder to mean = gun violence, then outside of big cities the murder rate is comparable with that of Japan. More or less, if you avoid the children of unwed parents, the illegal drug trade, gun free zones, and domestic difficulties, your odds of being mass murdered are almost zero, and single murdered are tiny.

With politics ... perception is reality. Don't forget that the only reason we have a welfare state is because people are jealous, lazy, petty, vindictive, resentful, and bitter. Not all of them. But enough to win an election quite handily. (That is admittedly all conjecture on my part, but if somebody wants to debate further on it ...)

So unless the marching orders for a fix are "we're not going to publicize this stuff nationally anymore" ....

I'd like to see some self-limitations by the major media, but I have no optimism on that short of boycotts. And since nobody is focusing on #3 in the OP, there is no momentum for that. One editorial writer in the AJC refuses to list their name. That's at least a start. But there is no question the 24/7 for weeks on end has contributed to multiple copy cat crimes.

other than limiting entrance points, I personally see no solution that would be relevant....

the overall numbers of deaths over decades are infinitely small as the ability to obtain info only continues to grow, that it's nothing more that preying on peoples emotions when any instance occurs.....

there are so many other ways people die in relative terms, it's barely a pimple on the arse in relevance that actually matters....

there are easily more relevant topics relative to murder/death/kill that are ignored...

#topicdujourgetsthemeverytime

This is another issue where my standard complaint against our two political parties applies. Democrats have come up with a bunch of bad ideas, while republicans have pretty much come up with no ideas. So we will most likely end up with some watered down version of the democrat proposals. Which won’t work but which will move the needle closer to the left’s ultimate goal of gun confiscation, making the imposition of a totalitarian socialist/communist state easier. I’m sorry if anyone is offended, but that’s really where I see things headed. Unless, of course, republicans finally start coming up with better ideas. There are many of those, but republicans can’t seem to find them. I’m sick of both.

An “assault weapons ban” is not going to make a noticeable dent in our gun carnage, it probably won’t stop mass shootings, and it is unlikely even to get rid of “assault weapons.” A minimum age to buy a gun seems pretty useless as well. To solve the problem we need to get away from the preoccupation with guns as the problem and look at defense in depth. Reorient our mental health thinking toward identifying and responding to those who are legitimate threats to themselves and others, and away from giving people pills to make them feel better. Restrict access and strengthen security forces at “gun free zones.” Stiffer sentences for gun violators. Legalize or decriminalize marijuana and possibly other drugs to cut into gang revenues, open up prison cells, and refocus law enforcement from drugs to gangs. And I still think a shooting license would be useful.

There is one common theme I see with Eric Harris, Devon Klebold, Elliot Rodger, Adam Lanza, Seung Hui Cho, James Holmes, Devin Patrick Kelley, and Nikolas Cruz (I produced almost all of those from memory BTW, because I have read about these guys). They do have mental issues but some of them would be considered fairly mild if they occurred in most people. The big variable here is social isolation, ostracization, and sometimes bullying.

Part of it is increases in conditions with social impairments (mild autism, mutism, things like that) and part of it is so many single-father homes (the number of school shooters with little or no father figures is pretty staggering).

But rather than actually address the problem, the Michelle Obamas out there complain that we raise boys to be "entitled" and other such steaming bull****. Apparently since it's largely white and Asian males it can't be anything else because, you know, privilege and stuff. I'm not saying there aren't other things that can be done for the problem, but it's one front that if we ignore will make solving the problem impossible.

(03-03-2018 03:40 PM)EigenEagle Wrote:  There is one common theme I see with Eric Harris, Devon Klebold, Elliot Rodger, Adam Lanza, Seung Hui Cho, James Holmes, Devin Patrick Kelley, and Nikolas Cruz (I produced almost all of those from memory BTW, because I have read about these guys). They do have mental issues but some of them would be considered fairly mild if they occurred in most people. The big variable here is social isolation, ostracization, and sometimes bullying.

Part of it is increases in conditions with social impairments (mild autism, mutism, things like that) and part of it is so many single-father homes (the number of school shooters with little or no father figures is pretty staggering).

I agree with these. Even with the world being such a connected place, if you go down to the individual level it can be pretty lonely. Imagine how you would be different if you felt that you didn't have anyone on your side.

These events are just the most severe manifestations of this loneliness. The vast majority of people who fall under this don't do anything remarkable. They might have some type of maladaptive coping going on, but they aren't necessarily violent. This is also how people end up in cults and stuff.

Maybe counseling for kid's experiencing a divorce or parental death. See how they're adapting to a big change in life.

(03-03-2018 06:23 PM)nomad2u2001 Wrote:  

(03-03-2018 03:40 PM)EigenEagle Wrote:  There is one common theme I see with Eric Harris, Devon Klebold, Elliot Rodger, Adam Lanza, Seung Hui Cho, James Holmes, Devin Patrick Kelley, and Nikolas Cruz (I produced almost all of those from memory BTW, because I have read about these guys). They do have mental issues but some of them would be considered fairly mild if they occurred in most people. The big variable here is social isolation, ostracization, and sometimes bullying.

Part of it is increases in conditions with social impairments (mild autism, mutism, things like that) and part of it is so many single-father homes (the number of school shooters with little or no father figures is pretty staggering).

I agree with these. Even with the world being such a connected place, if you go down to the individual level it can be pretty lonely. Imagine how you would be different if you felt that you didn't have anyone on your side.

These events are just the most severe manifestations of this loneliness. The vast majority of people who fall under this don't do anything remarkable. They might have some type of maladaptive coping going on, but they aren't necessarily violent. This is also how people end up in cults and stuff.

Maybe counseling for kid's experiencing a divorce or parental death. See how they're adapting to a big change in life.

The solutions to this are very hard. But it would help if people would start talking about it. Nobody nationally seems to be.

Someone in the media is finally saying it.
http://www.weeklystandard.com/school-sho...le/2011800

News consumers are accustomed to seeing such harrowing footage. Tufekci, a sociology professor at the University of North Carolina who researches technology and society, maintains they shouldn’t be. Backed by a growing body of scholarship that mass killers inspire imitators, she wants the media to restrain themselves in how much visceral evidence they broadcast of a shooter’s deeds. “This doesn’t mean censoring the news or not reporting important events of obvious news value,” she wrote in the Times in 2015. “It means not providing the killers with the infamy they seek.”

My opinion

Why are we only talking mass killings? Despite the uptick, they remain rare in the population of killed and injured.

First of all let's change our approach to gun ownership. I was taught gun safety before I ever held a firearm. It started with my first air rifle and a few years after that, I was allowed to use a firearm under close supervision, then finally unsupervised. Right now a person who has never had 10 seconds of gun safety training may purchase any legal firearm if they have adequate cash or credit, and in Arkansas may open carry said firearm in nearly all public places.

Passing a basic skills written test and live handling test for me is not unreasonable. Then I can get a nifty laminated card with my photo and a seller can swipe or scan it to see I'm OK.

If I start having seizures or my vision deteriorates my health care provider has an 800 number to call and my license is suspended. If I disagree, I can have a hearing to challenge the decision in any county in Arkansas and in some counties I can even have my choice between multiple locations. If I disagree with that decision, I can appeal to the circuit court.

If I'm being treated for hearing voices telling me to kill myself or kill other people or I become otherwise incapacitated to safely operate a firearm, there should be a similar process. Today if I start hearing voices telling me to kill and I AGREE to inpatient treatment, I'm still eligible to buy, I only get flagged if I disagree to accept treatment and someone pursues an involuntary commitment through the courts.

We have thousands of people filling out paperwork declaring "Uncle Sam, I am too mentally ill to hold down a job. Please pay me out of my social security or give me SSI." None of these people are evaluated for gun possession unless involuntarily committed.

The most common gun death in the US is suicide, typically a middle aged white male. Let's work on that. The next most common is homicide where the shooter and victim are younger with minority males over-represented. Let's work on that as well.

You really want to bring down the numbers, you need an affordable and accessible health care system. Want to cut homicides, then you have to do something about drug addiction because many of those homicides are related to control of distribution rights or the commission of crimes to fund addiction.

We have taken the single phase approach to drugs. We are going to interdict as many as possible. Well basic economics come into play. Constraining the supply increases the cost which increases the profit per unit delivered and sold. This is the richest country in the world. Thousands, maybe millions have the means to buy $1000 mobile phone before the cost of cell service is added, people buy $45,000 pickup trucks. Fast food chains are seeing declining sales not because consumers are staying home and making healthy meals but because more consumers are shifting to more expensive restaurant meals. You can't price drugs out of use in the US.

You have to attack demand and that means treatment and the reality is treatment is hard to obtain and very expensive. It is cheaper to remain untreated.

How about we try enforcing the laws and regulations that are already on the books before we add more laws and regulations to be ignored by the government?

If the government actually does it's job and enforces the laws already on the books you'll see a dramatic drop in firearms homicides. Will it stop them all? No. Nothing will.

Make government officials who fail to do their jobs open to criminal and civil consequences. If they know they can lose their freedom and everything they own perhaps they'll actually do their jobs in the future.

Figure out a way to make the judicial system realize that gun charges are not "throw away" charges in plea bargains. Far too often gun violations are the first charges dropped.

That's both "doing something" and it preserves the rights of law abiding citizens.