(02-15-2018 11:32 AM)tigergreen Wrote:  Parameters get defined the same way any law's parameter's get defined - quit being disingenuous.

It's a message board, you can't run out of ink.

I have been told constantly that "we must do something." Why can't those that demand something be done ever provide exact commentary? I am very interested in this conversation but all you offered was if a kid made a threat he should have a mental health evaluation. That is a serious, life-altering event. But you just want to wave your hands and let the law write itself? No way tiger, if you are going to put kids in front of mental health proffessionals and perhaps even the justice system you damn well better be able to show exactly what protections there are for Americans.

(02-15-2018 11:32 AM)tigergreen Wrote:  You clearly don't want anything to change, so tell me - how would YOU keep this from happening?

There are plenty of laws on the books. Enforce them.
Arm selected and anonymous teachers. Enable them.

(02-15-2018 11:32 AM)tigergreen Wrote:  Or do you just consider innocent kids dying in school "the price of freedom?"

Yes, I am not willing to repeal the Second Amendment and confiscate firearms from law abiding Americans.

(02-15-2018 09:02 AM)Kaplony Wrote:  One of the first things we can do is start holding people responsible who did not take action on these monsters using existing means. With this case in Florida both the school system and the mental health professional Cruz had been seeing bear responsibility.

His fellow classmates were the first to know. That’s a heap of guilt right there. Same with Catholic Church and Priest Pedos.

Everyone, be nice. Debate and do not be jerks.

(02-15-2018 11:39 AM)Lord Stanley Wrote:  

(02-15-2018 11:32 AM)tigergreen Wrote:  Parameters get defined the same way any law's parameter's get defined - quit being disingenuous.

It's a message board, you can't run out of ink.

I have been told constantly that "we must do something." Why can't those that demand something be done ever provide exact commentary? I am very interested in this conversation but all you offered was if a kid made a threat he should have a mental health evaluation. That is a serious, life-altering event. But you just want to wave your hands and let the law write itself? No way tiger, if you are going to put kids in front of mental health proffessionals and perhaps even the justice system you damn well better be able to show exactly what protections there are for Americans.

Right. Because every idea thrown out on a message board for policy change has every single nuance thought out beforehand.

(02-15-2018 11:39 AM)Lord Stanley Wrote:  

(02-15-2018 11:32 AM)tigergreen Wrote:  You clearly don't want anything to change, so tell me - how would YOU keep this from happening?

There are plenty of laws on the books. Enforce them.
Arm selected and anonymous teachers. Enable them.

100% with you on enforcing existing laws.
So what happens when one of the teachers loses it in class one day, or a kid disarms a teacher? MORE. GUNS. ISN'T. THE. ANSWER.

(02-15-2018 11:39 AM)Lord Stanley Wrote:  

(02-15-2018 11:32 AM)tigergreen Wrote:  Or do you just consider innocent kids dying in school "the price of freedom?"

Yes, I am not willing to repeal the Second Amendment and confiscate firearms from law abiding Americans.

So kids dying is worth it to you so you can shoot a boar with an AR-15 if you get the itch. That's just insanity.

Something has to give on both sides. Full gun confiscation is not on the table, nor is repealing the 2nd amendment. Reasonable people understand this. Likewise, just enforcing existing laws & adding more guns to the equation is not the answer, either.

So where's some middle ground?

(02-15-2018 11:55 AM)tigergreen Wrote:  Right. Because every idea thrown out on a message board for policy change has every single nuance thought out beforehand.

Then we can only treat your suggestions as ill-though out and unrealistic at this time.

(02-15-2018 11:32 AM)tigergreen Wrote:  So what happens when one of the teachers loses it in class one day, or a kid disarms a teacher? MORE. GUNS. ISN'T. THE. ANSWER.

Because normally the only person in a school who has a gun is the shooter I am fine with the odds of having armed teachers.

(02-15-2018 11:32 AM)tigergreen Wrote:  So kids dying is worth it to you so you can shoot a boar with an AR-15 if you get the itch. That's just insanity.

I don't shoot boars with AR-15s but I support the Constitution.

(02-15-2018 11:32 AM)tigergreen Wrote:  So where's some middle ground?

So we can probably agree:
* More laws are not working
* You can't ban firearms or repeal the Second Amendment
* Vast portions of the mental health establish are broken

However, in general, it has been found that active shooters are cowards when confronted with return fire. Or even the threat of return fire. So if your arm anonymous schools employees and make it clear that there are armed employees on campus and I'd bet at least school shootings go down in number.

If you combine this with certain security solutions like reinforced doors and ballistic blankets in classrooms you could see deaths go down substantially.

These are solutions, not thoughts and prayers.

(02-15-2018 11:39 AM)Lord Stanley Wrote:  

(02-15-2018 11:32 AM)tigergreen Wrote:  Parameters get defined the same way any law's parameter's get defined - quit being disingenuous.

It's a message board, you can't run out of ink.

I have been told constantly that "we must do something." Why can't those that demand something be done ever provide exact commentary? I am very interested in this conversation but all you offered was if a kid made a threat he should have a mental health evaluation. That is a serious, life-altering event. But you just want to wave your hands and let the law write itself? No way tiger, if you are going to put kids in front of mental health proffessionals and perhaps even the justice system you damn well better be able to show exactly what protections there are for Americans.

(02-15-2018 11:32 AM)tigergreen Wrote:  You clearly don't want anything to change, so tell me - how would YOU keep this from happening?

There are plenty of laws on the books. Enforce them.
Arm selected and anonymous teachers. Enable them.

(02-15-2018 11:32 AM)tigergreen Wrote:  Or do you just consider innocent kids dying in school "the price of freedom?"

Yes, I am not willing to repeal the Second Amendment and confiscate firearms from law abiding Americans.

Yes, to all the above.

Are guns “fuel” on a fire? I bought gas freely in the 70’s as a very young man who cut grass for a living. It was expensive but I needed it to run my push mower. Never thought to throw a can onto a fire. It was precious.

(02-15-2018 12:10 PM)Lord Stanley Wrote:  So we can probably agree:
* More laws are not working
* You can't ban firearms or repeal the Second Amendment
* Vast portions of the mental health establish are broken

However, in general, it has been found that active shooters are cowards when confronted with return fire. Or even the threat of return fire. So if your arm anonymous schools employees and make it clear that there are armed employees on campus and I'd bet at least school shootings go down in number.

If you combine this with certain security solutions like reinforced doors and ballistic blankets in classrooms you could see deaths go down substantially.

These are solutions, not thoughts and prayers.

We can agree that the 2nd amendment won't be repealed, and therefore an outright ban on all firearms will never happen, so why people are concerned about it is beyond me. I also agree that the mental health system is beyond broken in this country.

However, I do not agree that more laws wouldn't help. I'm going to try to go back & find that thread that I listed some options in so I'm not speaking off-the-cuff.

I'm not necessarily against having an officer(s) on school campuses who are armed - keep them in plain clothes like air marshals - fine. However, arming teachers is not the answer.

I posted this in another thread.

Privatize all schools and give them the freedom to implement whatever safety systems they deem necessary.

And on a related note. Make the airlines responsible for their own safety.

(02-15-2018 12:23 PM)UofMTigerTim Wrote:  Privatize all schools and give them the freedom to implement whatever safety systems they deem necessary.

How do you do that and expect education in this country to improve? It would be an arms race of private schools - more and more $$ expected, leaving the poor further & further behind, never mind the fact that privitization doesn't automatically mean safer schools.

(02-15-2018 11:37 AM)SuperFlyBCat Wrote:  

(02-15-2018 11:35 AM)Old Dominion Wrote:  

(02-15-2018 11:32 AM)SuperFlyBCat Wrote:  

(02-15-2018 11:29 AM)BobcatEngineer Wrote:  

(02-15-2018 11:22 AM)SuperFlyBCat Wrote:  Armed security at schools, and all bags, back packs are checked just like at Airports and court houses. A perp can still shoot up the checkpoint area though.

Who's going to pay for the armed security guards?

My old high school can't afford printer ink and paper let alone the salary of an armed guard and the proper screening equipment required.

It is up to the school system to figure that out. How do you know about your former HS finances? What is the name of the school and city.

The problem in a nut shell. It's always somebody else's job to solve the problem. All I have to do is sit back and ***** and criticize everything proposed.
Absolutely no sense of personal responsibility.

No it isn't somebody else's job, it it the school system. You have it backwards.

No, I don't. We expect the schools to be mother and father to our children instead of doing it ourselves. Where were the adults in this child's life? Who gave up their responsibility to know what this boy was up to? Adults, that's who. Where were they? Hoping the school would handle him?

(02-15-2018 12:37 PM)Old Dominion Wrote:  

(02-15-2018 11:37 AM)SuperFlyBCat Wrote:  

(02-15-2018 11:35 AM)Old Dominion Wrote:  

(02-15-2018 11:32 AM)SuperFlyBCat Wrote:  

(02-15-2018 11:29 AM)BobcatEngineer Wrote:  Who's going to pay for the armed security guards?

My old high school can't afford printer ink and paper let alone the salary of an armed guard and the proper screening equipment required.

It is up to the school system to figure that out. How do you know about your former HS finances? What is the name of the school and city.

The problem in a nut shell. It's always somebody else's job to solve the problem. All I have to do is sit back and ***** and criticize everything proposed.
Absolutely no sense of personal responsibility.

No it isn't somebody else's job, it it the school system. You have it backwards.

No, I don't. We expect the schools to be mother and father to our children instead of doing it ourselves. Where were the adults in this child's life? Who gave up their responsibility to know what this boy was up to? Adults, that's who. Where were they? Hoping the school would handle him?

I believe he was adopted, and his adoptive parents are dead, if I'm not mistaken.

(02-15-2018 12:29 PM)tigergreen Wrote:  

(02-15-2018 12:23 PM)UofMTigerTim Wrote:  Privatize all schools and give them the freedom to implement whatever safety systems they deem necessary.

How do you do that and expect education in this country to improve? It would be an arms race of private schools - more and more $$ expected, leaving the poor further & further behind, never mind the fact that privitization doesn't automatically mean safer schools.

I argue it would be cheaper not more expensive and it would be safer.

https://info.richmondalarm.com/news/are-...ic-schools

(02-15-2018 12:37 PM)Old Dominion Wrote:  

(02-15-2018 11:37 AM)SuperFlyBCat Wrote:  

(02-15-2018 11:35 AM)Old Dominion Wrote:  

(02-15-2018 11:32 AM)SuperFlyBCat Wrote:  

(02-15-2018 11:29 AM)BobcatEngineer Wrote:  Who's going to pay for the armed security guards?

My old high school can't afford printer ink and paper let alone the salary of an armed guard and the proper screening equipment required.

It is up to the school system to figure that out. How do you know about your former HS finances? What is the name of the school and city.

The problem in a nut shell. It's always somebody else's job to solve the problem. All I have to do is sit back and ***** and criticize everything proposed.
Absolutely no sense of personal responsibility.

No it isn't somebody else's job, it it the school system. You have it backwards.

No, I don't. We expect the schools to be mother and father to our children instead of doing it ourselves. Where were the adults in this child's life? Who gave up their responsibility to know what this boy was up to? Adults, that's who. Where were they? Hoping the school would handle him?

Teacher guilt is real when tragedy strikes. Most time, they know who is gay and who has had sex and who has done drugs and who likes who and who will make it in life and who will struggle and who shouldn’t go to college. Two most repeated phrases by teachers......”I already know” and “I knew it”.

Let’s talk about PTC. Who shows up? How engaged are the parents?

Teachers have willingly become desensitized to drama. It’s self preservation.
If we are blaming guns we also need to blame teachers.

(02-15-2018 12:37 PM)Old Dominion Wrote:  

(02-15-2018 11:37 AM)SuperFlyBCat Wrote:  

(02-15-2018 11:35 AM)Old Dominion Wrote:  

(02-15-2018 11:32 AM)SuperFlyBCat Wrote:  

(02-15-2018 11:29 AM)BobcatEngineer Wrote:  Who's going to pay for the armed security guards?

My old high school can't afford printer ink and paper let alone the salary of an armed guard and the proper screening equipment required.

It is up to the school system to figure that out. How do you know about your former HS finances? What is the name of the school and city.

The problem in a nut shell. It's always somebody else's job to solve the problem. All I have to do is sit back and ***** and criticize everything proposed.
Absolutely no sense of personal responsibility.

No it isn't somebody else's job, it it the school system. You have it backwards.

No, I don't. We expect the schools to be mother and father to our children instead of doing it ourselves. Where were the adults in this child's life? Who gave up their responsibility to know what this boy was up to? Adults, that's who. Where were they? Hoping the school would handle him?

Not talking about parenting. If you want to protect kids from gun fire inside of a school then install armed security.

(02-15-2018 12:49 PM)SuperFlyBCat Wrote:  

(02-15-2018 12:37 PM)Old Dominion Wrote:  

(02-15-2018 11:37 AM)SuperFlyBCat Wrote:  

(02-15-2018 11:35 AM)Old Dominion Wrote:  

(02-15-2018 11:32 AM)SuperFlyBCat Wrote:  
It is up to the school system to figure that out. How do you know about your former HS finances? What is the name of the school and city.

The problem in a nut shell. It's always somebody else's job to solve the problem. All I have to do is sit back and ***** and criticize everything proposed.
Absolutely no sense of personal responsibility.

No it isn't somebody else's job, it it the school system. You have it backwards.

No, I don't. We expect the schools to be mother and father to our children instead of doing it ourselves. Where were the adults in this child's life? Who gave up their responsibility to know what this boy was up to? Adults, that's who. Where were they? Hoping the school would handle him?

Not talking about parenting. If you want to protect kids from gun fire inside of a school then install armed security.

OK That may be a necessary short term measure, but developing a culture where the guns are not being used, and further a culture where kids don't become so alienated and angry should be the long term goal.

(02-15-2018 12:20 PM)tigergreen Wrote:  However, I do not agree that more laws wouldn't help. I'm going to try to go back & find that thread that I listed some options in so I'm not speaking off-the-cuff.

Found it - it was after the Vegas shooting, so 'bump stocks' were a hot topic, so take that into account:

-Support a crackdown on existing gun laws (certainly we can all agree on that one).
-Support a national “permit to purchase” policy.
-Support a ban on modifications like "bump stocks" (which I had never even heard of until this event) that serve no purpose other than to kill multitudes of people.
-Support across-the-board registration with fingerprints for all firearms.
-Support laws to keep those previously convicted of domestic violence and/or those with diagnosed mental health issues from getting a gun.
-Strict liability for gun owners who do not store & secure guns properly (if your gun is in your unlocked car & gets stolen, you pay.)
-Support that gun owners AND sellers be required to purchase insurance.
-Support the removal of the PLCAA, which keeps gun companies, gun shows & dealers from being able to be sued for illegal purchases.
-Support an end to ‘no questions asked’ type of gun sales (taken care of with some of the items above).
-Support improving healthcare options that provide more mental health treatment for those who need it.

The 'permit to purchase" was met with vitriol by some here, screaming about being on a list, and "omg muh guns," blah blah blah.

If we can all agree as we have earlier that the 2nd amendment is not being repealed, therefore all guns are not being taken away from you, here are the studies that showed where these things worked:

https://www.jhsph.edu/research/centers-a...ernick.pdf

Missouri REPEALED a law like this, and experienced a 14% uptick in the murder rate, and a 16% jump in the suicide by firearm rate.

After Missouri’s PTP law was repealed, the share of guns recovered from criminals that moved swiftly from a retail sale to crime involvement doubled, and the share of crime guns that originated from an in-state retail transaction doubled.

Connecticut IMPLEMENTED a law like this, and had a 40% REDUCTION in firearm homicides (!) and a 15% reduction in firearm suicides.

There was also no "substitution effect," where criminals chose to switch to another weapon....that goes back to my earlier statement of how we have some lazy criminals in this country who aren't going to go above & beyond just to get a gun, so the "criminals will get guns one way or the other" argument is moot.

From that same study:
https://www.jhsph.edu/news/news-releases...cides.html

States with handgun purchaser licensing laws have lower rates of guns being diverted to criminals shortly after retail sale and lower rates of exporting guns to criminals in other states.
A study of guns traced to crime in 53 cities found that the PTP laws allowing police discretion were associated with 64% lower risk of guns being diverted guns to criminals within the state compared to states without such laws.
Criminals in places with PTP laws who used guns typically acquired guns that originated from states with weaker laws.
Another study found that PTP laws requiring fingerprinting of applicants were among the most effective state policies to reduce diversions of guns to criminals across state borders. PTP laws that gave law enforcement discretion in issuing permits were associated with 76% lower per capita rates of exporting guns to criminals, while PTP laws that did not allow discretion but still required fingerprinting of purchasers were associated with 45% lower rates of exporting guns to criminals in other states.

(02-15-2018 05:38 AM)Fort Bend Owl Wrote:  A restless night for me stressing out over the latest school shooting tragedy in our country. Rather than rehash the same crap over again on stuff that isn't going to happen (re: gun control), I have a couple of thoughts/comments on how to make our schools a bit safer perhaps.

First off, the latest Trump budget proposal has education spending lowered by 5.3 percent (with some spending increase on education choices). Plain and simple, you can't take that much money away from schools and expect them to be safer. If we're losing teachers and administrators, schools become more dangerous and not less.

But where does the budget show increases? In two ways in particular - defense spending (14 percent) and homeland security (12 percent). Now I'm not saying I think this budget proposal will pass Congress or is justified, but here is what I am saying.

Defense and Homeland Security should include the safety of our schools. Maybe it's time to think about putting a military member in large high schools and middle schools across the country. We probably can't afford to add another police member in the schools but I'd rather put military in schools then ship them overseas. It's a sad statement on society but I think it's time we try something to stem the epidemic of violence. In our local high school, the 2 full-time cops on duty are mostly used for traffic control and isolated safety incidents, but they can use more help in both areas. Perhaps you have this military person work with the schools' ROTC programs during the day in some fashion to justify their presence as well.

In terms of Homeland Security, I think the FBI and other departments need to be more proactive in protecting potential threats to the schools. The perpetrator in Florida was expelled from that high school a year ago, and was a known threat to the school. Maybe the FBI had visited him, but if not, why not? Any threats posted online on social media should be taken seriously by these departments. Again I'd rather these organizations concentrating on domestic threats just as much as foreign ones.

I don't believe arming the teachers is the answer. Their job is to teach, not police our youth.

Maybe you disagree with my suggestions but at least I'm suggesting potential ways of making the schools safer. I have 2 high schoolers, and 3 siblings who are teachers so incidents like the one in Florida really hit home with me. Today is going to be a somber day in our nation's schools.

Couldn't disagree more with putting military everywhere. That's what police are for. And the police have different training.

You want to improve school safety-deal with mental health. Start putting pressure on media to quit giving these killers so much publicity and encouraging copy cats.

(02-15-2018 09:26 AM)49RFootballNow Wrote:  These kind of things didn't happen with the same frequency in the 50's, 60's and 70's in these numbers and arguably the civilian availability of high capacity firearms was much greater then than now.

The problem is that people have changed.

Everybody with a death wish now wants to go out as a star and we have a media willing to turn them into celebrities with the 24 hour news cycle.

The basic moral fiber of our society is falling apart and until we address that anything else (like more gun control) is like putting a bandage on cancer.

Exactly. There are bigger problems at work here.

(02-15-2018 09:34 AM)Lord Stanley Wrote:  

(02-15-2018 09:26 AM)49RFootballNow Wrote:  Everybody with a death wish now wants to go out as a star and we have a media willing to turn them into celebrities with the 24 hour news cycle.

If someone wants to trash the Constitution in a way that could save lives then impose censorship over the mass media. Because spree killers all seek immortality. They want to be famous.

But instead we get "democracy dies in darkness" and Trump paid a hooker, or some plabum like that.

Public boycotts. Public shaming. Protests.