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Frizzy Owl Offline
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Post: #2561
RE: Trump Administration
(02-07-2018 10:57 AM)JustAnotherAustinOwlStill Wrote:  Are you all really still talking about Hillary's emails? You know she lost, right?

In any case, it's not like she refused to clap at one of Trump's speeches. You, know, treason.

Anyway, hopefully they'll behave better at our big Soviet-style military parade. Yeah, I know he said "French-style" but we know Republicans hate the French. He must have meant "freedom-style".

Far better to parade in Washington than fight in Syria or Ukraine.
02-07-2018 11:33 AM
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illiniowl Offline
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Post: #2562
RE: Trump Administration
(02-07-2018 11:33 AM)Frizzy Owl Wrote:  
(02-07-2018 10:57 AM)JustAnotherAustinOwlStill Wrote:  Are you all really still talking about Hillary's emails? You know she lost, right?

In any case, it's not like she refused to clap at one of Trump's speeches. You, know, treason.

Anyway, hopefully they'll behave better at our big Soviet-style military parade. Yeah, I know he said "French-style" but we know Republicans hate the French. He must have meant "freedom-style".

Far better to parade in Washington than fight in Syria or Ukraine.

Huh? You'll have to explain that one to me. If we have some big orgiastic parade of missiles and tanks and planes, it'll scratch some invasionary itch Trump has without having to actually get anyone killed? (Doesn't work for Putin, obviously.) If we stop being so coy about our awesome military might and show it off on Pennsylvania Avenue for once, bad guys around the world will start thinking twice about challenging us?

The suggestion that there is any strategic justification for such a pointless expenditure is laughable. And the political optics - with Trump no doubt watching the spectacle from a reviewing stand, a la [insert dictator's name here] - are incalculably bad. It is a moronic idea from a moron. And I'm a Republican.
02-07-2018 01:04 PM
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Frizzy Owl Offline
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Post: #2563
RE: Trump Administration
I'm not making a justification.

If I have to explain why I prefer parades to war as a demonstration, well, I wouldn't know where to begin.

Another example of how far down the rabbit hole we are - Trump is being called the warmonger for wanting a parade, compared to his recent predecessors who actually blew stuff up and killed people to make the world a better place. War is Peace!
(This post was last modified: 02-07-2018 01:38 PM by Frizzy Owl.)
02-07-2018 01:28 PM
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illiniowl Offline
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Post: #2564
RE: Trump Administration
(02-07-2018 01:28 PM)Frizzy Owl Wrote:  I'm not making a justification.

If I have to explain why I prefer parades to war as a demonstration, well, I wouldn't know where to begin.

Another example of how far down the rabbit hole we are - Trump is being called the warmonger for wanting a parade, compared to his recent predecessors who actually blew stuff up and killed people to make the world a better place. War is Peace!

OK, so you were (obliquely) defending him against the charge of being a warmonger, fair enough. I can agree that wanting a parade does not make him a warmonger. It makes him vain, profligate, and politically inept. In all fairness these things were already known about him before his parade lust/envy hit the news, and in all fairness the last president was all of those things too.

But I still struggle to grasp why, if you believe parades--and let's just be honest, Russian/Chinese/North Korean-style parades, as those are obviously the inspiration here--would not cause/forebode war (which I would agree with), you think they can prevent or are somehow some kind of judicious alternative to war. There is, rather, no connection. And you might remember that we will still be at war while this parade is going on (if it comes to pass), the nonwarmonger in the Oval Office not having gotten us out of any of the ones we are in.

In this country, let's save the full military parades for occasions of victory. Outside of that context they are 100% pointless propaganda, and wastes of money that could be saved or put to better use.
02-07-2018 03:41 PM
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Owl 69/70/75 Online
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Post: #2565
RE: Trump Administration
(02-06-2018 08:58 PM)Frizzy Owl Wrote:  
(02-06-2018 06:13 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:  
(02-06-2018 04:34 PM)Frizzy Owl Wrote:  
(02-06-2018 04:27 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:  it *can* be via the 'conscious disregard'; but not necessarily so.

That is simply incorrect. The difference between gross and ordinary negligence is "conscious disregard".

The real question is, did Clinton know she was violating protocol, and could it be proven that she did so knowingly?

An example in Federal law is in tax code - honest mistake on a tax return vs. deliberate miscalculation. One means you owe more money, the other is a felony.

all you have done with your example is show a difference based on scienter. deliberate == intent to.

sorry but to conflate gross negligence with intentional disregard of a standard is to say that there is no difference between an intentional standard and that of gross negligence.

you certainly can get to gross negligence through that, but it is not a fundamental necessary path. just ask any plaintiff's attorney....

I'll leave the parsing to you and the attorneys.

The fact remains that intent is a necessary element of the crime. The defense attorney would certainly argue that.

Since the word “intent” or any of its forms do not appear in the statutes, it is a difficult argument to make that intent is required. But the facts are pretty clear that the requisite intent was there. The offenses were repeated over a lengthy period of time, and there were efforts to cover them up, two primary indices of intent. And keep in mind that the requisite intent would be intent to put the information into the nonsecure environment. There is no required showing of intent to deliver the material to the enemy, or that any such material was in fact delivered.
02-07-2018 03:54 PM
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Frizzy Owl Offline
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Post: #2566
RE: Trump Administration
(02-07-2018 03:41 PM)illiniowl Wrote:  But I still struggle to grasp why, if you believe parades--and let's just be honest, Russian/Chinese/North Korean-style parades, as those are obviously the inspiration here--would not cause/forebode war (which I would agree with), you think they can prevent or are somehow some kind of judicious alternative to war. There is, rather, no connection. And you might remember that we will still be at war while this parade is going on (if it comes to pass), the nonwarmonger in the Oval Office not having gotten us out of any of the ones we are in.

If he doesn't start any new wars, or escalate the ones we're in, that would be an improvement. Can he win a peace prize for that?

As for the connection between parades and military aggression, I have to admit that the correlation between military aggressiveness and military parades is only somewhat negative - not enough to prove anything.
02-07-2018 03:58 PM
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Post: #2567
RE: Trump Administration
(02-06-2018 08:00 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  My bottom line.

You can say what you want about Mueller and Comey and Trump and Strzok and all the rest. But the fact that Hillary is not behind bars says that there’s something rotten somewhere.

Well, you're assuming she would have been convicted by a jury, which seems objectively at least questionable, and then even if she had been, that she would have been given a jail sentence rather than probation (although not being a federal criminal lawyer I confess no knowledge of what category of offense this would have been and whether probation would have been an option under the guidelines). Yes, a prosecution likely could have proven the requisite elements, especially since intent was/is not an element. But you still would have had to get 12 (10? 8? federal courts don't always use 12) jurors (in D.C. or the Southern District of New York, no less) to unanimously convict the most famous AND the most infamous woman in the country. She would have had a defense dream team and probably would have mounted a fairly appealing "everyone does it, no big deal" defense that would have included evidence of various Republicans doing the same thing (perhaps to lesser degrees) than she did. Personally I would have put the odds of a hung jury at 80+%, acquittal (or jury nullification if you'd prefer to call it that, and I wouldn't argue) at 19+%, and conviction at <1%.

Comey took the middle option that probably most people in his shoes would have taken. He knew the DOJ (the Obama DOJ) was going to decline to prosecute Hillary no matter what he did. That is just a realpolitik fact. So Comey's options were: (1) recommend prosecution, then loudly resign in protest when the recommendation was rejected -- which would make him look petulant and kneecap the remainder of his career; (2) say nothing beyond "I sent my confidential recommendation to the AG, what she chooses to do with it is up to her" -- which would have been extremely helpful to Hillary, in that there would have been no counter-narrative to whatever a pro-Hillary Loretta Lynch would have said; (3) go even farther and curry favor with Obama/Lynch/Clinton by issuing a statement that twisted itself in knots to exonerate her -- which would have made him a hack, something he pretty clearly had too much ethics to abide; or (4) do what he did.

The crime Hillary committed was ultimately and always a political one (unless it could ever have been shown that some true national secret fell into enemy hands because of her actions, some asset was lost, etc.). So her trial was left to be a political one as well. And lo and behold she actually was convicted--and punished--in the political forum, barely perhaps, but justice was achieved nonetheless. The punishment fit the crime perfectly: She was patently not fit to be president, and so she was not allowed to be president. For the record, I am sorry that the collateral beneficiary of her loss also had to be a patently unfit person. He, too, shall pass from the stage eventually.

The ironic part of this hairsplitting over "extremely careless" or "grossly negligent" is that everyone with half a brain knows she went far and fully beyond whatever these words mean. The LAST thing Hillary Clinton is is "extremely careless." She is a meticulous, paranoid, venal control freak of the highest order (a trait not uncommon among politicians on both sides of the aisle). We ALL know that SHE knew EXACTLY what she was doing in setting up that server, and there was no oopsy-daisy about it. She wanted to keep her emails from public discovery and potential use against her in some future campaign - and I'm not even talking about Clinton Foundation graft or whatever. No politician ever wants to leave a paper trail of ANYTHING if they can help it, because even the innocuous stuff can probably be used somehow. And the second-to-last thing Hillary Clinton is is innocuous, anyway. She operates in gray areas and knew there would be something useful to a future opponent.

Comey may have spared Clinton the expense (if any there would have been, as inevitably there would have been a Clinton Defense Fund) of a trial (that she would have won, or at least not lost, anyway) but not only did he publicly rip her for her behavior, in letting her off, he solidified her (deserved) reputation for being let off where others would not be, being allowed to play by different rules, float above the law, etc. That stain cannot, could not, and did not wash off.
02-07-2018 04:06 PM
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Owl 69/70/75 Online
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Post: #2568
RE: Trump Administration
(02-07-2018 04:06 PM)illiniowl Wrote:  Well, you're assuming she would have been convicted by a jury, which seems objectively at least questionable, and then even if she had been, that she would have been given a jail sentence rather than probation (although not being a federal criminal lawyer I confess no knowledge of what category of offense this would have been and whether probation would have been an option under the guidelines). Yes, a prosecution likely could have proven the requisite elements, especially since intent was/is not an element. But you still would have had to get 12 (10? 8? federal courts don't always use 12) jurors (in D.C. or the Southern District of New York, no less) to unanimously convict the most famous AND the most infamous woman in the country. She would have had a defense dream team and probably would have mounted a fairly appealing "everyone does it, no big deal" defense that would have included evidence of various Republicans doing the same thing (perhaps to lesser degrees) than she did. Personally I would have put the odds of a hung jury at 80+%, acquittal (or jury nullification if you'd prefer to call it that, and I wouldn't argue) at 19+%, and conviction at <1%.

I'm not assuming anything. I think your odds might be about correct. What I said was the fact that she is not behind bars says that something is rotten. I would say that something would be the juries in the situation you project. But the fact that it never got a jury says that something else is rotten.

Quote:Comey took the middle option that probably most people in his shoes would have taken. He knew the DOJ (the Obama DOJ) was going to decline to prosecute Hillary no matter what he did. That is just a realpolitik fact. So Comey's options were: (1) recommend prosecution, then loudly resign in protest when the recommendation was rejected -- which would make him look petulant and kneecap the remainder of his career; (2) say nothing beyond "I sent my confidential recommendation to the AG, what she chooses to do with it is up to her" -- which would have been extremely helpful to Hillary, in that there would have been no counter-narrative to whatever a pro-Hillary Loretta Lynch would have said; (3) go even farther and curry favor with Obama/Lynch/Clinton by issuing a statement that twisted itself in knots to exonerate her -- which would have made him a hack, something he pretty clearly had too much ethics to abide; or (4) do what he did.

I fail to see the difference between your alternatives (3) and (4). Only choice (1) would have demonstrated any ethical fortitude IMO. Of course he would probably have been Vince Fostered in that case--and he probably knew that.

Quote:The crime Hillary committed was ultimately and always a political one (unless it could ever have been shown that some true national secret fell into enemy hands because of her actions, some asset was lost, etc.).

Actually, not true, unless you want to argue that, for example, MM1 Kristian Saucier's conviction was for a political crime, which seems a difficult argument to make, at best.

Quote:So her trial was left to be a political one as well. And lo and behold she actually was convicted--and punished--in the political forum, barely perhaps, but justice was achieved nonetheless. The punishment fit the crime perfectly: She was patently not fit to be president, and so she was not allowed to be president. For the record, I am sorry that the collateral beneficiary of her loss also had to be a patently unfit person. He, too, shall pass from the stage eventually.

The thing is, against a less unfit candidate, I'm not sure she doesn't get away with it. Donald Trump may have been the only republican who could have beaten her.

Quote:The ironic part of this hairsplitting over "extremely careless" or "grossly negligent" is that everyone with half a brain knows she went far and fully beyond whatever these words mean. The LAST thing Hillary Clinton is is "extremely careless." She is a meticulous, paranoid, venal control freak of the highest order (a trait not uncommon among politicians on both sides of the aisle). We ALL know that SHE knew EXACTLY what she was doing in setting up that server, and there was no oopsy-daisy about it. She wanted to keep her emails from public discovery and potential use against her in some future campaign - and I'm not even talking about Clinton Foundation graft or whatever. No politician ever wants to leave a paper trail of ANYTHING if they can help it, because even the innocuous stuff can probably be used somehow. And the second-to-last thing Hillary Clinton is is innocuous, anyway. She operates in gray areas and knew there would be something useful to a future opponent.

Exactly.

Quote:Comey may have spared Clinton the expense (if any there would have been, as inevitably there would have been a Clinton Defense Fund) of a trial (that she would have won, or at least not lost, anyway) but not only did he publicly rip her for her behavior, in letting her off, he solidified her (deserved) reputation for being let off where others would not be, being allowed to play by different rules, float above the law, etc. That stain cannot, could not, and did not wash off.

And I think this solidified the notion that there is a privileged class in the US, and Trump rode to victory on the resulting backlash. What is ironic is that it would be difficult to identify a more privileged class than that to which Donald Trump belongs.
02-07-2018 04:21 PM
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RiceLad15 Offline
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Post: #2569
RE: Trump Administration
In a similar vein, with all of this news about Rob Porter (WH Staff Secretary) and his history of domestic violence, I've heard it mentioned that his full security clearance was delayed by the FBI because of these accusations. One of Porter's jobs was to vet what material went to Trump (see below).

Quote: As it goes now, Porter must vet and clear all news articles, legal documents, internal and external policy memos, and agency reports before they make it to Kelly's desk.
http://www.businessinsider.com/rob-porte...ary-2017-8

If that's true, it would not be crazy to wonder if classified material was included in the materials he reviewed. If it was, and he reviewed/handled it, wouldn't that be a big no-no? It will be interesting to see if this gets picked up and discussed (I heard about it from a talking head on the news).
02-07-2018 05:45 PM
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Post: #2570
RE: Trump Administration
(02-07-2018 05:45 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  In a similar vein, with all of this news about Rob Porter (WH Staff Secretary) and his history of domestic violence, I've heard it mentioned that his full security clearance was delayed by the FBI because of these accusations. One of Porter's jobs was to vet what material went to Trump (see below).
Quote: As it goes now, Porter must vet and clear all news articles, legal documents, internal and external policy memos, and agency reports before they make it to Kelly's desk.
http://www.businessinsider.com/rob-porte...ary-2017-8
If that's true, it would not be crazy to wonder if classified material was included in the materials he reviewed. If it was, and he reviewed/handled it, wouldn't that be a big no-no? It will be interesting to see if this gets picked up and discussed (I heard about it from a talking head on the news).

Porter wouldn't get to touch classified material without a clearance. That's just how it works. Not sure how they did it, but that's pretty ironclad.
02-07-2018 06:14 PM
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RiceLad15 Offline
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Post: #2571
RE: Trump Administration
(02-07-2018 06:14 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(02-07-2018 05:45 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  In a similar vein, with all of this news about Rob Porter (WH Staff Secretary) and his history of domestic violence, I've heard it mentioned that his full security clearance was delayed by the FBI because of these accusations. One of Porter's jobs was to vet what material went to Trump (see below).
Quote: As it goes now, Porter must vet and clear all news articles, legal documents, internal and external policy memos, and agency reports before they make it to Kelly's desk.
http://www.businessinsider.com/rob-porte...ary-2017-8
If that's true, it would not be crazy to wonder if classified material was included in the materials he reviewed. If it was, and he reviewed/handled it, wouldn't that be a big no-no? It will be interesting to see if this gets picked up and discussed (I heard about it from a talking head on the news).

Porter wouldn't get to touch classified material without a clearance. That's just how it works. Not sure how they did it, but that's pretty ironclad.

What I am seeing is that Porter was allowed to handle classified material in his role, despite not fully being cleared. It will be interesting to see if somehow, despite not having a full clearance, he was still cleared to handle classified materials.

Quote:In fact, Porter had reportedly not received permanent security clearance because of the order, which is notable because his job was to handle all documents that went to Trump, which included a great deal of classified material. Staffers can receive temporary clearance to view classified material while waiting for final clearance. (White House Press Secretary Sarah Sanders refused to comment on the status of Porter’s clearance during Wednesday’s briefing.)

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/arc...er/552704/

My guess is that he was cleared to handle the material, and it wasn't John Kelly et. al. passing information to him to review before Trump got it, but we'll see. Did think it was a relevant topic.
02-07-2018 10:55 PM
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Owl 69/70/75 Online
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Post: #2572
RE: Trump Administration
(02-07-2018 10:55 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  
(02-07-2018 06:14 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(02-07-2018 05:45 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  In a similar vein, with all of this news about Rob Porter (WH Staff Secretary) and his history of domestic violence, I've heard it mentioned that his full security clearance was delayed by the FBI because of these accusations. One of Porter's jobs was to vet what material went to Trump (see below).
Quote: As it goes now, Porter must vet and clear all news articles, legal documents, internal and external policy memos, and agency reports before they make it to Kelly's desk.
http://www.businessinsider.com/rob-porte...ary-2017-8
If that's true, it would not be crazy to wonder if classified material was included in the materials he reviewed. If it was, and he reviewed/handled it, wouldn't that be a big no-no? It will be interesting to see if this gets picked up and discussed (I heard about it from a talking head on the news).
Porter wouldn't get to touch classified material without a clearance. That's just how it works. Not sure how they did it, but that's pretty ironclad.
What I am seeing is that Porter was allowed to handle classified material in his role, despite not fully being cleared. It will be interesting to see if somehow, despite not having a full clearance, he was still cleared to handle classified materials.
Quote:In fact, Porter had reportedly not received permanent security clearance because of the order, which is notable because his job was to handle all documents that went to Trump, which included a great deal of classified material. Staffers can receive temporary clearance to view classified material while waiting for final clearance. (White House Press Secretary Sarah Sanders refused to comment on the status of Porter’s clearance during Wednesday’s briefing.)
https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/arc...er/552704/
My guess is that he was cleared to handle the material, and it wasn't John Kelly et. al. passing information to him to review before Trump got it, but we'll see. Did think it was a relevant topic.

You can have interim clearances pending a final. But you must have at least an interim. And I do't think you can get an interim above Secret. At least that's the way it used to work.
02-07-2018 11:10 PM
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Post: #2573
RE: Trump Administration
Shocking/not shocking that Trump and Kelly were OK with having this guy in their white house. These are not "minor" charges either, not that any domestic violence is minor.

But it looks like the "Christian" right is still OK with Trump. Family values!

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/...5e3a7403da
02-08-2018 01:28 PM
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Post: #2574
RE: Trump Administration
Trump wants a military parade because it's the only way he can think of to show off his junk without pulling a wiener!
02-08-2018 05:41 PM
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Post: #2575
RE: Trump Administration
(02-08-2018 05:41 PM)ColOwl Wrote:  Trump wants a military parade because it's the only way he can think of to show off his junk without pulling a wiener!

He could pull Anthony out.
02-08-2018 06:33 PM
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Post: #2576
RE: Trump Administration
Amanda Carpenter, former staffer to DeMint and Cruz on the Porter situation:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wYqRTRoc...e=youtu.be

I will give Trump one thing - on a regular basis, I'm finding myself in total agreement with people I never thought I'd agree with in a million years.
02-08-2018 06:37 PM
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Post: #2577
RE: Trump Administration
(02-07-2018 10:55 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  
(02-07-2018 06:14 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(02-07-2018 05:45 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  In a similar vein, with all of this news about Rob Porter (WH Staff Secretary) and his history of domestic violence, I've heard it mentioned that his full security clearance was delayed by the FBI because of these accusations. One of Porter's jobs was to vet what material went to Trump (see below).
Quote: As it goes now, Porter must vet and clear all news articles, legal documents, internal and external policy memos, and agency reports before they make it to Kelly's desk.
http://www.businessinsider.com/rob-porte...ary-2017-8
If that's true, it would not be crazy to wonder if classified material was included in the materials he reviewed. If it was, and he reviewed/handled it, wouldn't that be a big no-no? It will be interesting to see if this gets picked up and discussed (I heard about it from a talking head on the news).

Porter wouldn't get to touch classified material without a clearance. That's just how it works. Not sure how they did it, but that's pretty ironclad.

What I am seeing is that Porter was allowed to handle classified material in his role, despite not fully being cleared. It will be interesting to see if somehow, despite not having a full clearance, he was still cleared to handle classified materials.

Quote:In fact, Porter had reportedly not received permanent security clearance because of the order, which is notable because his job was to handle all documents that went to Trump, which included a great deal of classified material. Staffers can receive temporary clearance to view classified material while waiting for final clearance. (White House Press Secretary Sarah Sanders refused to comment on the status of Porter’s clearance during Wednesday’s briefing.)

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/arc...er/552704/

My guess is that he was cleared to handle the material, and it wasn't John Kelly et. al. passing information to him to review before Trump got it, but we'll see. Did think it was a relevant topic.

Politico is reporting that Kelly knew that Porter and several others working on temporary clearances were going to be denied permanent clearance.

Also sounds like the only "new" info Kelly got on Porter was that there were pictures. So I guess he's OK with his staff beating the crap out of their spouses....so long as there are no pictures.
02-09-2018 09:47 AM
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Post: #2578
RE: Trump Administration
(02-09-2018 09:47 AM)JustAnotherAustinOwlStill Wrote:  
(02-07-2018 10:55 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  
(02-07-2018 06:14 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(02-07-2018 05:45 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  In a similar vein, with all of this news about Rob Porter (WH Staff Secretary) and his history of domestic violence, I've heard it mentioned that his full security clearance was delayed by the FBI because of these accusations. One of Porter's jobs was to vet what material went to Trump (see below).
Quote: As it goes now, Porter must vet and clear all news articles, legal documents, internal and external policy memos, and agency reports before they make it to Kelly's desk.
http://www.businessinsider.com/rob-porte...ary-2017-8
If that's true, it would not be crazy to wonder if classified material was included in the materials he reviewed. If it was, and he reviewed/handled it, wouldn't that be a big no-no? It will be interesting to see if this gets picked up and discussed (I heard about it from a talking head on the news).

Porter wouldn't get to touch classified material without a clearance. That's just how it works. Not sure how they did it, but that's pretty ironclad.

What I am seeing is that Porter was allowed to handle classified material in his role, despite not fully being cleared. It will be interesting to see if somehow, despite not having a full clearance, he was still cleared to handle classified materials.

Quote:In fact, Porter had reportedly not received permanent security clearance because of the order, which is notable because his job was to handle all documents that went to Trump, which included a great deal of classified material. Staffers can receive temporary clearance to view classified material while waiting for final clearance. (White House Press Secretary Sarah Sanders refused to comment on the status of Porter’s clearance during Wednesday’s briefing.)

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/arc...er/552704/

My guess is that he was cleared to handle the material, and it wasn't John Kelly et. al. passing information to him to review before Trump got it, but we'll see. Did think it was a relevant topic.

Politico is reporting that Kelly knew that Porter and several others working on temporary clearances were going to be denied permanent clearance.

Also sounds like the only "new" info Kelly got on Porter was that there were pictures. So I guess he's OK with his staff beating the crap out of their spouses....so long as there are no pictures.

http://www.dictionary.com/browse/innuendo
02-09-2018 12:16 PM
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RiceLad15 Offline
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Post: #2579
RE: Trump Administration
Second staffer resigns for domestic abuse claims: https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cnn.com...index.html

I’m a bit torn about these - on one hand people who are guilty of these crimes should be in jail and serving time, and on the other, if there is no guilty verdict you could quickly get into a situation where someone really is accused of something they didn’t do. But domestic violence issues are difficult and don’t always go to court, and even once there, I imagine a guilty verdict is hard to obtain. But also, if someone has changed/addressed their issues, do they not also deserve a chance at redemption?

Bringing this back to Trump, there are also Now rumblings that’s Trump is annoyed at both Hicks and Kelly, and that if Kelly were asked to leave, he would, and he would take a handful of others with him.
02-10-2018 11:00 AM
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OptimisticOwl Offline
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Post: #2580
RE: Trump Administration
(02-10-2018 11:00 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  Second staffer resigns for domestic abuse claims: https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cnn.com...index.html

I’m a bit torn about these - on one hand people who are guilty of these crimes should be in jail and serving time, and on the other, if there is no guilty verdict you could quickly get into a situation where someone really is accused of something they didn’t do. But domestic violence issues are difficult and don’t always go to court, and even once there, I imagine a guilty verdict is hard to obtain. But also, if someone has changed/addressed their issues, do they not also deserve a chance at redemption?

Bringing this back to Trump, there are also Now rumblings that’s Trump is annoyed at both Hicks and Kelly, and that if Kelly were asked to leave, he would, and he would take a handful of others with him.

I share your concerns. We have reached a point where accusation = guilty verdict. You don't end up in jail serving time without an indictment and trial - yet. But it seems to be moving that way.

I have personal knowledge of a man who hit his first wife. In the 50 years since then, no problems. His current wife is an ATF agent - doubt she would stand for it, but she has been with him 15 years now.
So it would seem that unlike alcoholism and pedophilia, it is not always, once an abuser, always an abuser.
02-10-2018 11:07 AM
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