(01-10-2018 04:43 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  

(01-10-2018 03:55 PM)olliebaba Wrote:  

(01-09-2018 04:44 PM)UTSAMarineVet09 Wrote:  

(01-09-2018 04:41 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  It's Trumpcare now brother. Enjoy.

really? when was Trumpcare passed?

See, I told you he wasn't too bright. As far as I know the mandate was the only thing removed. You still have your wonderful Oblundercare until it is entirely destroyed for something better. Something better is pretty much anything.

The republicans have been saying they are going to repeal and replace for how long now?

But go ahead and keep blaming Obama. I'm sure that is exactly what they want you to do.

I blame Obama and the Democrats for ObamaCare. They designed it and passed it.

I blame Republicans for NOT repealing and replacing like they promised.

But anyone who tries to shift the blame for ObamaCare to the GOP or Trump is either... well, I won't go there.

(01-10-2018 04:59 PM)umbluegray Wrote:  

(01-10-2018 04:43 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  

(01-10-2018 03:55 PM)olliebaba Wrote:  

(01-09-2018 04:44 PM)UTSAMarineVet09 Wrote:  

(01-09-2018 04:41 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  It's Trumpcare now brother. Enjoy.

really? when was Trumpcare passed?

See, I told you he wasn't too bright. As far as I know the mandate was the only thing removed. You still have your wonderful Oblundercare until it is entirely destroyed for something better. Something better is pretty much anything.

The republicans have been saying they are going to repeal and replace for how long now?

But go ahead and keep blaming Obama. I'm sure that is exactly what they want you to do.

I blame Obama and the Democrats for ObamaCare. They designed it and passed it.

I blame Republicans for NOT repealing and replacing like they promised.

But anyone who tries to shift the blame for ObamaCare to the GOP or Trump is either... well, I won't go there.

This X 1,000,000

(01-10-2018 04:59 PM)umbluegray Wrote:  

(01-10-2018 04:43 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  

(01-10-2018 03:55 PM)olliebaba Wrote:  

(01-09-2018 04:44 PM)UTSAMarineVet09 Wrote:  

(01-09-2018 04:41 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  It's Trumpcare now brother. Enjoy.

really? when was Trumpcare passed?

See, I told you he wasn't too bright. As far as I know the mandate was the only thing removed. You still have your wonderful Oblundercare until it is entirely destroyed for something better. Something better is pretty much anything.

The republicans have been saying they are going to repeal and replace for how long now?

But go ahead and keep blaming Obama. I'm sure that is exactly what they want you to do.

I blame Obama and the Democrats for ObamaCare. They designed it and passed it.

I blame Republicans for NOT repealing and replacing like they promised.

But anyone who tries to shift the blame for ObamaCare to the GOP or Trump is either... well, I won't go there.

There is nothing wrong with blaming Obama for Obamacare. But it wasn't all bad.

It might have been bad for you but it wasn't bad for millions and millions of Americans.

Why don't you acknowledge that?

There were republicans at the town hall meetings who were begging Republicans not to repeal Obamacare. If it was so terrible, how do you explain that?

(01-10-2018 05:03 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  

(01-10-2018 04:59 PM)umbluegray Wrote:  

(01-10-2018 04:43 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  

(01-10-2018 03:55 PM)olliebaba Wrote:  

(01-09-2018 04:44 PM)UTSAMarineVet09 Wrote:  really? when was Trumpcare passed?

See, I told you he wasn't too bright. As far as I know the mandate was the only thing removed. You still have your wonderful Oblundercare until it is entirely destroyed for something better. Something better is pretty much anything.

The republicans have been saying they are going to repeal and replace for how long now?

But go ahead and keep blaming Obama. I'm sure that is exactly what they want you to do.

I blame Obama and the Democrats for ObamaCare. They designed it and passed it.

I blame Republicans for NOT repealing and replacing like they promised.

But anyone who tries to shift the blame for ObamaCare to the GOP or Trump is either... well, I won't go there.

There is nothing wrong with blaming Obama for Obamacare. But it wasn't all bad.

It might have been bad for you but it wasn't bad for millions and millions of Americans.

Why don't you acknowledge that?

There were republicans at the town hall meetings who were begging Republicans not to repeal Obamacare. If it was so terrible, how do you explain that?

It was not bad for millions and millions of Americans.

And it was bad for millions and millions of other Americans.

It wasn't just "me" that got tagged.


But the planned end-game (single payer/universal) will be bad for EVERYBODY.

(01-10-2018 05:03 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  There is nothing wrong with blaming Obama for Obamacare. But it wasn't all bad.
It might have been bad for you but it wasn't bad for millions and millions of Americans.
Why don't you acknowledge that?
There were republicans at the town hall meetings who were begging Republicans not to repeal Obamacare. If it was so terrible, how do you explain that?

It may have been good for millions. It was also bad for millions. One requires the other, because it was a zero-sum game. Or at least it has been to date. When they start trying to mandate down the prices that providers can charge, without doing anything to help their cost structure, then it will become a negative-sum game. But we're not there yet. If we are lucky, republicans will actually come up with a viable replacement before we get there. If we're not lucky, they won't.

(01-10-2018 05:08 PM)umbluegray Wrote:  

(01-10-2018 05:03 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  

(01-10-2018 04:59 PM)umbluegray Wrote:  

(01-10-2018 04:43 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  

(01-10-2018 03:55 PM)olliebaba Wrote:  See, I told you he wasn't too bright. As far as I know the mandate was the only thing removed. You still have your wonderful Oblundercare until it is entirely destroyed for something better. Something better is pretty much anything.

The republicans have been saying they are going to repeal and replace for how long now?

But go ahead and keep blaming Obama. I'm sure that is exactly what they want you to do.

I blame Obama and the Democrats for ObamaCare. They designed it and passed it.

I blame Republicans for NOT repealing and replacing like they promised.

But anyone who tries to shift the blame for ObamaCare to the GOP or Trump is either... well, I won't go there.

There is nothing wrong with blaming Obama for Obamacare. But it wasn't all bad.

It might have been bad for you but it wasn't bad for millions and millions of Americans.

Why don't you acknowledge that?

There were republicans at the town hall meetings who were begging Republicans not to repeal Obamacare. If it was so terrible, how do you explain that?

It was not bad for millions and millions of Americans.

And it was bad for millions and millions of other Americans.

It wasn't just "me" that got tagged.


But the planned end-game (single payer/universal) will be bad for EVERYBODY.

Of course not A lot of people got screwed under Obamacare and a lot of people didn't.

I'm simply asking you to acknowledge that it was an attempt a better system and it was compared to what we had before.

(01-10-2018 05:10 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  I'm simply asking you to acknowledge that it was an attempt a better system and it was compared to what we had before.

No, it was an attempt to ruin the current system en route to a single payer system.

(01-10-2018 01:41 PM)Machiavelli Wrote:  From the no shyt SHERLOCK files.......................

http://www.newsweek.com/obamacare-tax-pl...ans-750871


REPUBLICAN TAX PLAN WILL MAKE HEALTH INSURANCE MORE EXPENSIVE

GOPers Please do me a favor before starting any anti Obamacare thread. Google how Republicans have made health insurance more expensive. Literally 100 articles.

CLAIM
EVIDENCE
SUPPORT

You used to be better than this.

1) of course there are hundreds of articles. It's the current topic and these are opinion pieces. Google how Democrats actually DID make it more expensive and you'll see a similar number. Go back to 2009 and you'll see vastly more.

2) Insurance is an annual thing and 2018 is still on Obama, not Trump. The whole 'in anticipation' is BS because such things are essentially part of the government/CMS.. and CMS doesn't work that way, so neither (generally) can anyone else.

IOW, you're asking for something you aren't delivering yourself.

You've made a claim you can't substantiate, other than to twist words and ask for something meaningless... like an article on how Republicans have reduced healthcare costs without actually passing anything yet.

Besides, nobody I know has claimed that Trump was elected to reduce healthcare costs. He was elected to either redistribute it away from the healthy and middle class or to deliver (overall) 'less' for 'free' to reduce the total, but not the individual cost.

Republicans by and large are 'about' individual responsibility, not communal like Democrats, so this makes simple sense.

(01-10-2018 05:03 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  There is nothing wrong with blaming Obama for Obamacare. But it wasn't all bad.

It might have been bad for you but it wasn't bad for millions and millions of Americans.

Why don't you acknowledge that?

There were republicans at the town hall meetings who were begging Republicans not to repeal Obamacare. If it was so terrible, how do you explain that?

It's been acknowledged ad nauseum.

There are also Democrats who are unhappy about Obamacare. So what? Healthcare (like most issues) isn't 100% divided along party lines. There are poor and middle class and rich, and healthy and unhealthy in each party.

(01-10-2018 05:10 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  

(01-10-2018 05:08 PM)umbluegray Wrote:  

(01-10-2018 05:03 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  

(01-10-2018 04:59 PM)umbluegray Wrote:  

(01-10-2018 04:43 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  The republicans have been saying they are going to repeal and replace for how long now?

But go ahead and keep blaming Obama. I'm sure that is exactly what they want you to do.

I blame Obama and the Democrats for ObamaCare. They designed it and passed it.

I blame Republicans for NOT repealing and replacing like they promised.

But anyone who tries to shift the blame for ObamaCare to the GOP or Trump is either... well, I won't go there.

There is nothing wrong with blaming Obama for Obamacare. But it wasn't all bad.

It might have been bad for you but it wasn't bad for millions and millions of Americans.

Why don't you acknowledge that?

There were republicans at the town hall meetings who were begging Republicans not to repeal Obamacare. If it was so terrible, how do you explain that?

It was not bad for millions and millions of Americans.

And it was bad for millions and millions of other Americans.

It wasn't just "me" that got tagged.


But the planned end-game (single payer/universal) will be bad for EVERYBODY.

Of course not A lot of people got screwed under Obamacare and a lot of people didn't.

I'm simply asking you to acknowledge that it was an attempt a better system and it was compared to what we had before.

I can not acknowledge that. "Better system" is not objective -- it's subjective.

I can't even acknowledge that it was an attempt at trying to do the right thing for a certain group of people because I personally believe it's was designed to be the first step toward single payer/universal.

I don't think that's at all better than what we had prior.

That doesn't mean I think what we had prior was great.

But ObamaCare was NOT a step in the right direction. It was a step in the socialist direction.

(01-10-2018 05:14 PM)GrayBeard Wrote:  

(01-10-2018 05:10 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  I'm simply asking you to acknowledge that it was an attempt a better system and it was compared to what we had before.

No, it was an attempt to ruin the current system en route to a single payer system.

See. He gets it.

(01-10-2018 05:10 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  I'm simply asking you to acknowledge that it was an attempt a better system and it was compared to what we had before.

I am not willing to acknowledge that because I do not believe that was either the intent or the result.

I believe it was designed to create a crisis which democrats could then not allow to go to waste, by passing single-payer. And I don't think anybody involved gave a **** about making anything better.

(01-10-2018 04:52 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  

(01-10-2018 04:47 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(01-10-2018 04:43 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  

(01-10-2018 03:55 PM)olliebaba Wrote:  

(01-09-2018 04:44 PM)UTSAMarineVet09 Wrote:  really? when was Trumpcare passed?

See, I told you he wasn't too bright. As far as I know the mandate was the only thing removed. You still have your wonderful Oblundercare until it is entirely destroyed for something better. Something better is pretty much anything.

The republicans have been saying they are going to repeal and replace for how long now?
But go ahead and keep blaming Obama. I'm sure that is exactly what they want you to do.

Render unto Obama the blame for the things Obama did. Render unto the republicans the blame for the things they did.

Obama did something. Republicans did nothing.

Did some of what Obama did hurt some people? Yes. But it also helped a lot of people. There are two sides to every coin.

The Republicans sat on their hands and when they had the power to do something about it. They didn't.

That is a fact.

nobody's arguing that....

however, you keep playing the empathy/race card......it's the one your crew understands.....

fk that....

get a clue, get on board, or walk the plank....

yeah, it's post 4:20 now.....

Wouldn't a good plan have better than a 50% hurt (at minimum) 50% helped (at maximum) outcome?

(01-10-2018 06:22 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(01-10-2018 05:10 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  I'm simply asking you to acknowledge that it was an attempt a better system and it was compared to what we had before.

I am not willing to acknowledge that because I do not believe that was either the intent or the result.

I believe it was designed to create a crisis which democrats could then not allow to go to waste, by passing single-payer. And I don't think anybody involved gave a **** about making anything better.

See. Owl gets it.

(01-10-2018 06:54 PM)solohawks Wrote:  Wouldn't a good plan have better than a 50% hurt (at minimum) 50% helped (at maximum) outcome?

in this scenario, driving to the largest % is best method in resolve.....

it's the minority that gets the most media att'n....

that's the biggest problem that exists today...........those fk'rs don't have a clue.....

#henceDJT

(01-10-2018 02:09 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(01-10-2018 01:41 PM)Machiavelli Wrote:  From the no shyt SHERLOCK files.......................
http://www.newsweek.com/obamacare-tax-pl...ans-750871
REPUBLICAN TAX PLAN WILL MAKE HEALTH INSURANCE MORE EXPENSIVE
GOPers Please do me a favor before starting any anti Obamacare thread. Google how Republicans have made health insurance more expensive. Literally 100 articles. CLAIM
EVIDENCE
SUPPORT

Hmm, let’s see. Let’s apply the standard you enunciate to the post you made.

You do in fact state a claim.
But the “evidence” you cite in support is opinion, not fact, and it says “could” and not will. Therefore it does not support your claim.

Now let me express an opinion, which I will clearly identify as such. Repealing the mandate is an incredibly stupid policy move. It’s a ticking time bomb that could destroy the health insurance industry unless republicans can pass some major revision to health care first. And democrats, who care more about winning elections than doing the right thing, will certainly sabotage any republican efforts to fix things before they crater.

Maybe this will work for the best. There is a solution to the republican quandary. It’s called Bismarck, and if republicans put it on the table, it’s goung to be hard for democrats to oppose without revealing their welfare plantation mentality.

a.k.a. Single-Payer health care. Dispute my assertion if wish, you and others know that's what it is at its most basic level.

(01-10-2018 02:58 PM)Machiavelli Wrote:  I also propose we pay for it with a VAT.

I say move to Europe if you're so desperate to pay a VAT.

(01-10-2018 06:22 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(01-10-2018 05:10 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  I'm simply asking you to acknowledge that it was an attempt a better system and it was compared to what we had before.

I am not willing to acknowledge that because I do not believe that was either the intent or the result.

I believe it was designed to create a crisis which democrats could then not allow to go to waste, by passing single-payer. And I don't think anybody involved gave a **** about making anything better.

That's quite a cynical view point considering that 20 million people obtained health insurance because of it. Including people with pre existing conditions and children up to age 26.

That's quite an accomplishment for a law that was only suppose to create a crisis.

(01-10-2018 06:58 PM)umbluegray Wrote:  

(01-10-2018 06:22 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(01-10-2018 05:10 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  I'm simply asking you to acknowledge that it was an attempt a better system and it was compared to what we had before.

I am not willing to acknowledge that because I do not believe that was either the intent or the result.

I believe it was designed to create a crisis which democrats could then not allow to go to waste, by passing single-payer. And I don't think anybody involved gave a **** about making anything better.

See. Owl gets it.

Except Owl wants single-payer as well. Oh sure, he'll say he wants Bismarck and foolishly claim it's not single-payer. But, we all know it's the most basic, stripped-down version of single payer there is.

(01-11-2018 12:28 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  

(01-10-2018 06:22 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(01-10-2018 05:10 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  I'm simply asking you to acknowledge that it was an attempt a better system and it was compared to what we had before.

I am not willing to acknowledge that because I do not believe that was either the intent or the result.
I believe it was designed to create a crisis which democrats could then not allow to go to waste, by passing single-payer. And I don't think anybody involved gave a **** about making anything better.

That's quite a cynical view point considering that 20 million people obtained health insurance because of it. Including people with pre existing conditions and children up to age 26.
That's quite an accomplishment for a law that was only suppose to create a crisis.

And a comparable number saw their previously affordable insurance and care become unaffordable. And it is proving to be economically unaffordable in the long run.

As CBO noted in their famous letter saying that it would not increase the budget deficit, absent reductions in overhead (not really possible with all the regulatory hoops it added for providers to jump through), those projections could only be achieved by reducing access or quality. If you want to reduce the price of health care to consumers, you have to reduce the cost to providers of providing it. Obamacare does nothing in that regard, when steps to do so were available.