I didnt necessarily have a problem with the decision to throw it, it was just a brutal underthrow.

That had to be a miscommunication or misunderstanding somewhere. If Santa was expecting him to go into the endzone there's no way Santa throws it that low.

(10-18-2017 02:07 PM)Djud Wrote:  You and Carey are aligned. It would appear as if the staff believe decision making issues cannot be corrected via coaching; and/or are not willing to go through the growth process.

Who said he's not willing to go through the growth process? Maybe he doesn't want that growth process taking place on the field in the middle of conference football games? Seems pretty reasonable to me.

You can advise someone to do the right thing but it doesn't mean they will. And just because I assume that a person learned from their mistake, I'm generally not going to want to put them in that same exact position again if other people's jobs/reputations/families, etc are on the line. Santa has been making these mistakes for months in practice. I'm sure they've seen it a lot more than we have.

(10-18-2017 03:50 PM)armour248 Wrote:  

(10-18-2017 02:07 PM)Djud Wrote:  You and Carey are aligned. It would appear as if the staff believe decision making issues cannot be corrected via coaching; and/or are not willing to go through the growth process.

Who said he's not willing to go through the growth process? Maybe he doesn't want that growth process taking place on the field in the middle of conference football games? Seems pretty reasonable to me.

You can advise someone to do the right thing but it doesn't mean they will. And just because I assume that a person learned from their mistake, I'm generally not going to want to put them in that same exact position again if other people's jobs/reputations/families, etc are on the line. Santa has been making these mistakes for months in practice. I'm sure they've seen it a lot more than we have.

And yet he was ahead of Childers after those months of practice, so apparently Childers was making at least as many mistakes. And we have to hope that Childers gets more accurate while other people's jobs/reputations/families are on the line.

Hate to revisit this whole thing again; but to 7's point; you can take Santa's performance against SDSU in two ways that are diametrically opposed. 1) his horrible decision making and performance at crunch time cost us the game; we have a team that can win the MAC this year, and we can't jeapoarsize that chance on a player we cannot trust. We need to win now so player development has to take a back seat to who makes the least mistakes. Or, 2) what he did for a good majority of that game was incredible; and his ability to throw deep is truly special; if we maximize the good and minimize the bad we have our guy. It's up to us to coach him up. I think the staff's answer is pretty clear.

(10-18-2017 12:23 PM)7 Wrote:  

(10-18-2017 11:24 AM)badmoonrising13 Wrote:  And that was three years ago and you know the concepts because Gruden talked about it in a show? It's obvious to me that Carey would never give his QBs the freedom to check from a running play to deep pass -- would never happen and I wouldn't do it at this juncture either. It's also obvious that we do not run RPOs. I thought I saw it run during spring and was excited about it but haven't seen it in a game this year.

So why are the run blocking on pass plays?

That's what you do on a playaction pass...

(10-18-2017 03:54 PM)NIU007 Wrote:  

(10-18-2017 03:50 PM)armour248 Wrote:  

(10-18-2017 02:07 PM)Djud Wrote:  You and Carey are aligned. It would appear as if the staff believe decision making issues cannot be corrected via coaching; and/or are not willing to go through the growth process.

Who said he's not willing to go through the growth process? Maybe he doesn't want that growth process taking place on the field in the middle of conference football games? Seems pretty reasonable to me.

You can advise someone to do the right thing but it doesn't mean they will. And just because I assume that a person learned from their mistake, I'm generally not going to want to put them in that same exact position again if other people's jobs/reputations/families, etc are on the line. Santa has been making these mistakes for months in practice. I'm sure they've seen it a lot more than we have.

And yet he was ahead of Childers after those months of practice, so apparently Childers was making at least as many mistakes. And we have to hope that Childers gets more accurate while other people's jobs/reputations/families are on the line.

Something I will say about this is, a huge part of Childers’ game is his legs and running QBs are a a disadvantage in practice because they don’t get hit and it pretty much removes the QB run from the equation

(10-18-2017 03:54 PM)NIU007 Wrote:  And yet he was ahead of Childers after those months of practice, so apparently Childers was making at least as many mistakes. And we have to hope that Childers gets more accurate while other people's jobs/reputations/families are on the line.

Maybe Childers just didn't present as big of an upside as Santa in practice. Maybe Childers made more mistakes in fall camp and then was improving as the season developed. Maybe the coaches decided that due to actual game performance, injuries, weekday preparation/meetings, Santa's difficulty holding a ball in the wet/cold/etc, that Childers was the best option. You can't just say "Well Childers must have been making just as many mistakes" without knowing the other 500 variables at play.

(10-18-2017 04:12 PM)armour248 Wrote:  

(10-18-2017 03:54 PM)NIU007 Wrote:  And yet he was ahead of Childers after those months of practice, so apparently Childers was making at least as many mistakes. And we have to hope that Childers gets more accurate while other people's jobs/reputations/families are on the line.

Maybe Childers just didn't present as big of an upside as Santa in practice. Maybe Childers made more mistakes in fall camp and then was improving as the season developed. Maybe the coaches decided that due to actual game performance, injuries, weekday preparation/meetings, Santa's difficulty holding a ball in the wet/cold/etc, that Childers was the best option. You can't just say "Well Childers must have been making just as many mistakes" without knowing the other 500 variables at play.

But you're basically assuming that Childers will get better but that Santa won't. And neither has played much in actual games.

(10-18-2017 04:02 PM)badmoonrising13 Wrote:  

(10-18-2017 12:23 PM)7 Wrote:  

(10-18-2017 11:24 AM)badmoonrising13 Wrote:  And that was three years ago and you know the concepts because Gruden talked about it in a show? It's obvious to me that Carey would never give his QBs the freedom to check from a running play to deep pass -- would never happen and I wouldn't do it at this juncture either. It's also obvious that we do not run RPOs. I thought I saw it run during spring and was excited about it but haven't seen it in a game this year.

So why are the run blocking on pass plays?

That's what you do on a playaction pass...

Man what are you talking about? You don’t run block on play action, you’re still pass blocking. Here’s Wimann’s TD on Saturday. They’re not run blocking.

http://www.espn.com/video/clip/_/id/21023058
http://es.pn/2kPx55z

If the line dtop steps on playaction passes the playaction is useless. Kinda like this conversation.

(10-18-2017 04:20 PM)NIU007 Wrote:  But you're basically assuming that Childers will get better but that Santa won't. And neither has played much in actual games.

I'm not assuming Childers will get better. I'm assuming that the coaches think he can control and manage the game better than Santa. I'm also assuming that he has either shown improvement in practice and/or the coaches felt his running ability is more important than Santa's throwing ability right now. Maybe the coaches have seen Childers hitting the deep passes in practice and have confidence in that. I don't know. All I'm saying is that there are a ton of variables in play and tons of practices, meetings, injuries, coaching decisions and other information that we don't know about.

(10-18-2017 04:31 PM)badmoonrising13 Wrote:  If the line dtop steps on playaction passes the playaction is useless. Kinda like this conversation.

If you go back to the pregame comments of the Nebraska DC who at that point had faced several read option offenses; his biggest issue/complaint was the refs were not calling the O linemen being down field on playaction passing; which is what this play is designed to do; show run action forcing the secondary up; opening up passing lanes.

(10-18-2017 04:53 PM)Djud Wrote:  

(10-18-2017 04:31 PM)badmoonrising13 Wrote:  If the line dtop steps on playaction passes the playaction is useless. Kinda like this conversation.

If you go back to the pregame comments of the Nebraska DC who at that point had faced several read option offenses; his biggest issue/complaint was the refs were not calling the O linemen being down field on playaction passing; which is what this play is designed to do; show run action forcing the secondary up; opening up passing lanes.

You convinced me a long time ago. The design of a good offense is misdirection and putting the odds in your favor.

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(10-18-2017 04:31 PM)badmoonrising13 Wrote:  If the line dtop steps on playaction passes the playaction is useless. Kinda like this conversation.

Agreed, why don't you shut it down?

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(10-18-2017 04:51 PM)armour248 Wrote:  

(10-18-2017 04:20 PM)NIU007 Wrote:  But you're basically assuming that Childers will get better but that Santa won't. And neither has played much in actual games.

I'm not assuming Childers will get better. I'm assuming that the coaches think he can control and manage the game better than Santa. I'm also assuming that he has either shown improvement in practice and/or the coaches felt his running ability is more important than Santa's throwing ability right now. Maybe the coaches have seen Childers hitting the deep passes in practice and have confidence in that. I don't know. All I'm saying is that there are a ton of variables in play and tons of practices, meetings, injuries, coaching decisions and other information that we don't know about.

+1

Just because I can't get over the stupidity of this conversation, here's further proof you don't run block on play action lol.

Beebe's TD came on play action today. They ain't run blocking.

http://www.espn.com/video/clip?id=21103625

(10-21-2017 08:35 PM)7 Wrote:  Just because I can't get over the stupidity of this conversation, here's further proof you don't run block on play action lol.

Beebe's TD came on play action today. They ain't run blocking.

http://www.espn.com/video/clip?id=21103625

I had no idea people thought that you run block on play action....

(10-21-2017 09:40 PM)DogPoundNorth Wrote:  

(10-21-2017 08:35 PM)7 Wrote:  Just because I can't get over the stupidity of this conversation, here's further proof you don't run block on play action lol.

Beebe's TD came on play action today. They ain't run blocking.

http://www.espn.com/video/clip?id=21103625

I had no idea people thought that you run block on play action....

Read this thread! Multiple (two) people did lol

(10-21-2017 09:47 PM)7 Wrote:  

(10-21-2017 09:40 PM)DogPoundNorth Wrote:  

(10-21-2017 08:35 PM)7 Wrote:  Just because I can't get over the stupidity of this conversation, here's further proof you don't run block on play action lol.

Beebe's TD came on play action today. They ain't run blocking.

http://www.espn.com/video/clip?id=21103625

I had no idea people thought that you run block on play action....

Read this thread! Multiple (two) people did lol

Jesus...I don't know what to say.