(09-24-2017 05:26 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(09-24-2017 05:09 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  Now the "protest" is spreading. The protest against what? Do all these people find the USA to be an oppressive country? All these people who make 6-8 figures a year, and who nearly all have had a free education? I wonder how much better an unoppressive country would look.

I seriously doubt that very many of these protesters have a clear idea what they are protesting. If so, why not protest last week, or last month, or last year?

In any case, they have the right to protest, and their employers have the right to take umbrage at the problems they bring them. Maybe the sheer numbers of them will protect them. Maybe not.

In any case, I will say this without equivocation: The USA is not an oppressive country.

I have leg problems, and I struggle to stand during the anthem. It takes a bit of effort. But I do. If somebody sitting in front of me wants to remain seated because he has a big bag of popcorn, that's his business. Very rude but he has the right to be rude. But don't tell me this country is so horrible that it does not deserve even that little, tiny modicum of civility. That raises my hackles.

Perhaps there are multiple types of experiences for those many millions of individuals who live in the US? And perhaps they vary greatly, and perhaps the vast difference is so great that one experience looks absolutely nothing like the other? Perhaps there are people who are discriminated against, those that aren't, and those that are somewhere in between?

Or is it really more likely that experiences are fairly uniform and we all get along and treat each other perfectly all the time?

Gosh golly gee, Wally, I am not sure how you decided what I was saying was that everything was ice cream and lollipops. There is a lot of spinach and beans in there too.

The nation, as a nation, is not oppressive. It used to be, to a segment of the population. I remember those days. I remember segregation. Do you? When was the last time you saw a "whites only" drinking fountain, restaurant, or restroom? And there certainly are cases of somebody getting oppressed here or there by the cops, or the water board, or the neighborhood association, but the nation, from sea to shining sea, is not an oppressive nation. That is what Kaepernick said he was protesting. As I said, I doubt half the guys protesting today have any idea what they are protesting. Maybe they just are protesting whatever Trump said.

I don't like the mode of protest, and I don't like the object of the protest being the entire country. One can protest happenings within the nation without demeaning the nation. The protest of the flag is a protest of the nation. Kaep said so. If they don't like it now, they sure wouldn't have liked it 65 years ago.

Now, if I ever go to a game again, I will stand for the National Anthem if I am able to stand at all. You and the players can do whatever you want for whatever reasons you want. But I don't have to respect you for it.

(09-24-2017 07:30 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(09-24-2017 05:26 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(09-24-2017 05:09 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  Now the "protest" is spreading. The protest against what? Do all these people find the USA to be an oppressive country? All these people who make 6-8 figures a year, and who nearly all have had a free education? I wonder how much better an unoppressive country would look.

I seriously doubt that very many of these protesters have a clear idea what they are protesting. If so, why not protest last week, or last month, or last year?

In any case, they have the right to protest, and their employers have the right to take umbrage at the problems they bring them. Maybe the sheer numbers of them will protect them. Maybe not.

In any case, I will say this without equivocation: The USA is not an oppressive country.

I have leg problems, and I struggle to stand during the anthem. It takes a bit of effort. But I do. If somebody sitting in front of me wants to remain seated because he has a big bag of popcorn, that's his business. Very rude but he has the right to be rude. But don't tell me this country is so horrible that it does not deserve even that little, tiny modicum of civility. That raises my hackles.

Perhaps there are multiple types of experiences for those many millions of individuals who live in the US? And perhaps they vary greatly, and perhaps the vast difference is so great that one experience looks absolutely nothing like the other? Perhaps there are people who are discriminated against, those that aren't, and those that are somewhere in between?

Or is it really more likely that experiences are fairly uniform and we all get along and treat each other perfectly all the time?

Gosh golly gee, Wally, I am not sure how you decided what I was saying was that everything was ice cream and lollipops. There is a lot of spinach and beans in there too.

The nation, as a nation, is not oppressive. It used to be, to a segment of the population. I remember those days. I remember segregation. Do you? When was the last time you saw a "whites only" drinking fountain, restaurant, or restroom? And there certainly are cases of somebody getting oppressed here or there by the cops, or the water board, or the neighborhood association, but the nation, from sea to shining sea, is not an oppressive nation. That is what Kaepernick said he was protesting. As I said, I doubt half the guys protesting today have any idea what they are protesting. Maybe they just are protesting whatever Trump said.

I don't like the mode of protest, and I don't like the object of the protest being the entire country. One can protest happenings within the nation without demeaning the nation. The protest of the flag is a protest of the nation. Kaep said so. If they don't like it now, they sure wouldn't have liked it 65 years ago.

Now, if I ever go to a game again, I will stand for the National Anthem if I am able to stand at all. You and the players can do whatever you want for whatever reasons you want. But I don't have to respect you for it.

How would you suggest people express their disagreement with regard to "cases of somebody getting oppressed"? I literally don't understand the issue with their manner of protest...I don't sing during the national anthem, so should the person next to me then accuse me of being an unpatriotic commie pig?

I totally respect and support their right to protest. I also think the subject matter of their protests is total BS.

(09-24-2017 10:28 PM)westsidewolf1989 Wrote:  

(09-24-2017 07:30 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(09-24-2017 05:26 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(09-24-2017 05:09 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  Now the "protest" is spreading. The protest against what? Do all these people find the USA to be an oppressive country? All these people who make 6-8 figures a year, and who nearly all have had a free education? I wonder how much better an unoppressive country would look.

I seriously doubt that very many of these protesters have a clear idea what they are protesting. If so, why not protest last week, or last month, or last year?

In any case, they have the right to protest, and their employers have the right to take umbrage at the problems they bring them. Maybe the sheer numbers of them will protect them. Maybe not.

In any case, I will say this without equivocation: The USA is not an oppressive country.

I have leg problems, and I struggle to stand during the anthem. It takes a bit of effort. But I do. If somebody sitting in front of me wants to remain seated because he has a big bag of popcorn, that's his business. Very rude but he has the right to be rude. But don't tell me this country is so horrible that it does not deserve even that little, tiny modicum of civility. That raises my hackles.

Perhaps there are multiple types of experiences for those many millions of individuals who live in the US? And perhaps they vary greatly, and perhaps the vast difference is so great that one experience looks absolutely nothing like the other? Perhaps there are people who are discriminated against, those that aren't, and those that are somewhere in between?

Or is it really more likely that experiences are fairly uniform and we all get along and treat each other perfectly all the time?

Gosh golly gee, Wally, I am not sure how you decided what I was saying was that everything was ice cream and lollipops. There is a lot of spinach and beans in there too.

The nation, as a nation, is not oppressive. It used to be, to a segment of the population. I remember those days. I remember segregation. Do you? When was the last time you saw a "whites only" drinking fountain, restaurant, or restroom? And there certainly are cases of somebody getting oppressed here or there by the cops, or the water board, or the neighborhood association, but the nation, from sea to shining sea, is not an oppressive nation. That is what Kaepernick said he was protesting. As I said, I doubt half the guys protesting today have any idea what they are protesting. Maybe they just are protesting whatever Trump said.

I don't like the mode of protest, and I don't like the object of the protest being the entire country. One can protest happenings within the nation without demeaning the nation. The protest of the flag is a protest of the nation. Kaep said so. If they don't like it now, they sure wouldn't have liked it 65 years ago.

Now, if I ever go to a game again, I will stand for the National Anthem if I am able to stand at all. You and the players can do whatever you want for whatever reasons you want. But I don't have to respect you for it.

How would you suggest people express their disagreement with regard to "cases of somebody getting oppressed"? I literally don't understand the issue with their manner of protest...I don't sing during the national anthem, so should the person next to me then accuse me of being an unpatriotic commie pig?

Why don't you sing? I usually sing along very low, barely moving my lips, because I have a horrible singing voice. Also, I tend to get choked up a bit.

If you didn't sing because you wanted to draw attention to your opinion that the US is an oppressive country...that's not the same, is it? Not every case of not singing is the same.

As for how to express disagreement, there are lots of ways. You didn't think kneeling during the anthem was the only choice, did you? But if, for example, you thought a bank was denying loans based on race, how about picketing the bank? Seems like dissing the entire country is a bit much. Maybe you could try speaking about it to people. Or wearing a teeshirt with "Ninth Bank is racist" on it. Or...

hey, I'm not trying to stop them. Stop trying to make me like it.

(09-25-2017 12:24 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(09-24-2017 10:28 PM)westsidewolf1989 Wrote:  

(09-24-2017 07:30 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(09-24-2017 05:26 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(09-24-2017 05:09 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  Now the "protest" is spreading. The protest against what? Do all these people find the USA to be an oppressive country? All these people who make 6-8 figures a year, and who nearly all have had a free education? I wonder how much better an unoppressive country would look.

I seriously doubt that very many of these protesters have a clear idea what they are protesting. If so, why not protest last week, or last month, or last year?

In any case, they have the right to protest, and their employers have the right to take umbrage at the problems they bring them. Maybe the sheer numbers of them will protect them. Maybe not.

In any case, I will say this without equivocation: The USA is not an oppressive country.

I have leg problems, and I struggle to stand during the anthem. It takes a bit of effort. But I do. If somebody sitting in front of me wants to remain seated because he has a big bag of popcorn, that's his business. Very rude but he has the right to be rude. But don't tell me this country is so horrible that it does not deserve even that little, tiny modicum of civility. That raises my hackles.

Perhaps there are multiple types of experiences for those many millions of individuals who live in the US? And perhaps they vary greatly, and perhaps the vast difference is so great that one experience looks absolutely nothing like the other? Perhaps there are people who are discriminated against, those that aren't, and those that are somewhere in between?

Or is it really more likely that experiences are fairly uniform and we all get along and treat each other perfectly all the time?

Gosh golly gee, Wally, I am not sure how you decided what I was saying was that everything was ice cream and lollipops. There is a lot of spinach and beans in there too.

The nation, as a nation, is not oppressive. It used to be, to a segment of the population. I remember those days. I remember segregation. Do you? When was the last time you saw a "whites only" drinking fountain, restaurant, or restroom? And there certainly are cases of somebody getting oppressed here or there by the cops, or the water board, or the neighborhood association, but the nation, from sea to shining sea, is not an oppressive nation. That is what Kaepernick said he was protesting. As I said, I doubt half the guys protesting today have any idea what they are protesting. Maybe they just are protesting whatever Trump said.

I don't like the mode of protest, and I don't like the object of the protest being the entire country. One can protest happenings within the nation without demeaning the nation. The protest of the flag is a protest of the nation. Kaep said so. If they don't like it now, they sure wouldn't have liked it 65 years ago.

Now, if I ever go to a game again, I will stand for the National Anthem if I am able to stand at all. You and the players can do whatever you want for whatever reasons you want. But I don't have to respect you for it.

How would you suggest people express their disagreement with regard to "cases of somebody getting oppressed"? I literally don't understand the issue with their manner of protest...I don't sing during the national anthem, so should the person next to me then accuse me of being an unpatriotic commie pig?

Why don't you sing? I usually sing along very low, barely moving my lips, because I have a horrible singing voice. Also, I tend to get choked up a bit.

If you didn't sing because you wanted to draw attention to your opinion that the US is an oppressive country...that's not the same, is it? Not every case of not singing is the same.

As for how to express disagreement, there are lots of ways. You didn't think kneeling during the anthem was the only choice, did you? But if, for example, you thought a bank was denying loans based on race, how about picketing the bank? Seems like dissing the entire country is a bit much. Maybe you could try speaking about it to people. Or wearing a teeshirt with "Ninth Bank is racist" on it. Or...

hey, I'm not trying to stop them. Stop trying to make me like it.

You don't have to like it, and I wasn't trying to get you to like it. However, it seemed like you were suggesting you didn't understand why they were kneeling and what the point of the protest was, and that the men kneeling did not have a valid reason to protest. I was pointing out that, while you may have one view of how people experience the country, others may have another view.

You're right that Jim Crow laws are no longer on the books, and in that manner we longer have explicitly racist laws trying to hold down a specific race of individuals. But that is/was not the only racist burden that people of color had to deal with, and there are still both explicit race issues (see: Charlottesville) and implicit racial issues (see: police brutality) that we as a country need to struggle with and overcome.

I'm sorry but "explicit race issues (see: Charlottesvile) and implicit race issues (see:police brutality)" is still too broad a brush for me.

Granted it is a bit more focused than saying the United States is oppressive, but it still lacks the clarity to resolve the 'issues'.

If it were humanly possible I'd like to ask each and every protester (or 'counter protester') what it is they 'want' and 'how' they think it could be achieved.

The problem I anticipate, and I hope I'm wrong, is that the answer will be 'outcomes'. Ensuring outcomes becomes one huge 'entitlement'.

And to quote my brother, the sage of the East Texas piney woods, "How does that work?"

(09-25-2017 06:13 AM)MerseyOwl Wrote:  I'm sorry but "explicit race issues (see: Charlottesvile) and implicit race issues (see:police brutality)" is still too broad a brush for me.

Granted it is a bit more focused than saying the United States is oppressive, but it still lacks the clarity to resolve the 'issues'.

If it were humanly possible I'd like to ask each and every protester (or 'counter protester') what it is they 'want' and 'how' they think it could be achieved.

The problem I anticipate, and I hope I'm wrong, is that the answer will be 'outcomes'. Ensuring outcomes becomes one huge 'entitlement'.

And to quote my brother, the sage of the East Texas piney woods, "How does that work?"

I was trying to provide examples of things that are viewed as explicitly racist (white cupremacists protesting in the streets) and implicitly racist (police targeting minorities at a higher rates). One is very clearly a racist action and the other is likely due to things like unconscious biases.

(09-24-2017 10:28 PM)westsidewolf1989 Wrote:  I don't sing during the national anthem...

What the heck's your problem? :)

(09-25-2017 12:24 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  I usually sing along very low, barely moving my lips, because I have a horrible singing voice.

Please don't worry about your own voice -- sing away! I can almost guarantee that your voice is better than you think it is (people today are sort of beat down from an early age into thinking that an imperfect voice is a bad one, which is as wrong as it is unfortunate). Either way, the great thing about singing in a crowd is that the sum of many voices always sounds fine. And perhaps most importantly, singing is good for the soul.

(09-25-2017 07:00 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(09-25-2017 06:13 AM)MerseyOwl Wrote:  I'm sorry but "explicit race issues (see: Charlottesvile) and implicit race issues (see:police brutality)" is still too broad a brush for me.

Granted it is a bit more focused than saying the United States is oppressive, but it still lacks the clarity to resolve the 'issues'.

If it were humanly possible I'd like to ask each and every protester (or 'counter protester') what it is they 'want' and 'how' they think it could be achieved.

The problem I anticipate, and I hope I'm wrong, is that the answer will be 'outcomes'. Ensuring outcomes becomes one huge 'entitlement'.

And to quote my brother, the sage of the East Texas piney woods, "How does that work?"

I was trying to provide examples of things that are viewed as explicitly racist (white cupremacists protesting in the streets) and implicitly racist (police targeting minorities at a higher rates). One is very clearly a racist action and the other is likely due to things like unconscious biases.

I don't support white supremacists, never have never will, but I will defend their right to free speech. You can't legislate against bias or prejudice. You can legislate and enforce laws against discrimination. Let them say what they will within (broad) legal limits and ignore them. Let them discriminate and let them be arrested, tried, and convicted.

Again I'd ask you to provide a bit more specificity with your examples. What do you mean when you say "police targeting minorities at a higher rate"?

And I would caution you or anyone (including myself) about a 'view' because that sounds to me like an opinion and not an expression of fact. You see I not only live in the "Land of Dull Skies" I live in a country rife with propaganda expressed as fact. As such my skepticism is running rampant while I try to moderate my innate cynicism exacerbated by old age and human experience.

(09-25-2017 07:49 AM)georgewebb Wrote:  

(09-25-2017 12:24 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  I usually sing along very low, barely moving my lips, because I have a horrible singing voice.

Please don't worry about your own voice -- sing away! I can almost guarantee that your voice is better than you think it is (people today are sort of beat down from an early age into thinking that an imperfect voice is a bad one, which is as wrong as it is unfortunate). Either way, the great thing about singing in a crowd is that the sum of many voices always sounds fine. And perhaps most importantly, singing is good for the soul.

If you guarantee carries financial assurance, get out your wallet. Yes, one can get lost in a crowd - that's why I dare to sing very low.

I sing...most people just stand. Now some don't do even that.

One of my proudest moments as an Owl was when the entire Rice crowd sang out together, loudly, at the New Orleans Bowl.

(09-25-2017 02:37 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(09-25-2017 12:24 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(09-24-2017 10:28 PM)westsidewolf1989 Wrote:  

(09-24-2017 07:30 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(09-24-2017 05:26 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  Perhaps there are multiple types of experiences for those many millions of individuals who live in the US? And perhaps they vary greatly, and perhaps the vast difference is so great that one experience looks absolutely nothing like the other? Perhaps there are people who are discriminated against, those that aren't, and those that are somewhere in between?

Or is it really more likely that experiences are fairly uniform and we all get along and treat each other perfectly all the time?

Gosh golly gee, Wally, I am not sure how you decided what I was saying was that everything was ice cream and lollipops. There is a lot of spinach and beans in there too.

The nation, as a nation, is not oppressive. It used to be, to a segment of the population. I remember those days. I remember segregation. Do you? When was the last time you saw a "whites only" drinking fountain, restaurant, or restroom? And there certainly are cases of somebody getting oppressed here or there by the cops, or the water board, or the neighborhood association, but the nation, from sea to shining sea, is not an oppressive nation. That is what Kaepernick said he was protesting. As I said, I doubt half the guys protesting today have any idea what they are protesting. Maybe they just are protesting whatever Trump said.

I don't like the mode of protest, and I don't like the object of the protest being the entire country. One can protest happenings within the nation without demeaning the nation. The protest of the flag is a protest of the nation. Kaep said so. If they don't like it now, they sure wouldn't have liked it 65 years ago.

Now, if I ever go to a game again, I will stand for the National Anthem if I am able to stand at all. You and the players can do whatever you want for whatever reasons you want. But I don't have to respect you for it.

How would you suggest people express their disagreement with regard to "cases of somebody getting oppressed"? I literally don't understand the issue with their manner of protest...I don't sing during the national anthem, so should the person next to me then accuse me of being an unpatriotic commie pig?

Why don't you sing? I usually sing along very low, barely moving my lips, because I have a horrible singing voice. Also, I tend to get choked up a bit.

If you didn't sing because you wanted to draw attention to your opinion that the US is an oppressive country...that's not the same, is it? Not every case of not singing is the same.

As for how to express disagreement, there are lots of ways. You didn't think kneeling during the anthem was the only choice, did you? But if, for example, you thought a bank was denying loans based on race, how about picketing the bank? Seems like dissing the entire country is a bit much. Maybe you could try speaking about it to people. Or wearing a teeshirt with "Ninth Bank is racist" on it. Or...

hey, I'm not trying to stop them. Stop trying to make me like it.

You don't have to like it, and I wasn't trying to get you to like it. However, it seemed like you were suggesting you didn't understand why they were kneeling and what the point of the protest was, and that the men kneeling did not have a valid reason to protest. I was pointing out that, while you may have one view of how people experience the country, others may have another view.

You're right that Jim Crow laws are no longer on the books, and in that manner we longer have explicitly racist laws trying to hold down a specific race of individuals. But that is/was not the only racist burden that people of color had to deal with, and there are still both explicit race issues (see: Charlottesville) and implicit racial issues (see: police brutality) that we as a country need to struggle with and overcome.

I guess this is is another version of "it's a black thing, you wouldn't understand."

I understand that a Dalmation dog is not lily white, but neither is it all black just because it has some spots. IMO, police brutality is a spot, yet the protest deems it the color of the dog.

As for Charlottesville, if only the White Supremacists had been allowed to march in obscurity and rail at each other with no audience, Charlottesville would be a symbol of nothing much. If a tree falls in the forest, it makes a sound, but if nobody is there to hear it, so what?

(09-25-2017 08:09 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(09-25-2017 07:49 AM)georgewebb Wrote:  

(09-25-2017 12:24 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  I usually sing along very low, barely moving my lips, because I have a horrible singing voice.

Please don't worry about your own voice -- sing away! I can almost guarantee that your voice is better than you think it is...

If you guarantee carries financial assurance, get out your wallet.

I will take that bet! Let's meet up before the next Rice game (though I will miss the Army game)

I'll get back to the more substantive stuff later, but why is Trump so obsessed with tweeting about people's ratings? "Low ratings!" etc. It would be a little weird even if he weren't president.

Lock him up!

http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2...-confirms?

(09-25-2017 08:20 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(09-25-2017 02:37 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(09-25-2017 12:24 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(09-24-2017 10:28 PM)westsidewolf1989 Wrote:  

(09-24-2017 07:30 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  Gosh golly gee, Wally, I am not sure how you decided what I was saying was that everything was ice cream and lollipops. There is a lot of spinach and beans in there too.

The nation, as a nation, is not oppressive. It used to be, to a segment of the population. I remember those days. I remember segregation. Do you? When was the last time you saw a "whites only" drinking fountain, restaurant, or restroom? And there certainly are cases of somebody getting oppressed here or there by the cops, or the water board, or the neighborhood association, but the nation, from sea to shining sea, is not an oppressive nation. That is what Kaepernick said he was protesting. As I said, I doubt half the guys protesting today have any idea what they are protesting. Maybe they just are protesting whatever Trump said.

I don't like the mode of protest, and I don't like the object of the protest being the entire country. One can protest happenings within the nation without demeaning the nation. The protest of the flag is a protest of the nation. Kaep said so. If they don't like it now, they sure wouldn't have liked it 65 years ago.

Now, if I ever go to a game again, I will stand for the National Anthem if I am able to stand at all. You and the players can do whatever you want for whatever reasons you want. But I don't have to respect you for it.

How would you suggest people express their disagreement with regard to "cases of somebody getting oppressed"? I literally don't understand the issue with their manner of protest...I don't sing during the national anthem, so should the person next to me then accuse me of being an unpatriotic commie pig?

Why don't you sing? I usually sing along very low, barely moving my lips, because I have a horrible singing voice. Also, I tend to get choked up a bit.

If you didn't sing because you wanted to draw attention to your opinion that the US is an oppressive country...that's not the same, is it? Not every case of not singing is the same.

As for how to express disagreement, there are lots of ways. You didn't think kneeling during the anthem was the only choice, did you? But if, for example, you thought a bank was denying loans based on race, how about picketing the bank? Seems like dissing the entire country is a bit much. Maybe you could try speaking about it to people. Or wearing a teeshirt with "Ninth Bank is racist" on it. Or...

hey, I'm not trying to stop them. Stop trying to make me like it.

You don't have to like it, and I wasn't trying to get you to like it. However, it seemed like you were suggesting you didn't understand why they were kneeling and what the point of the protest was, and that the men kneeling did not have a valid reason to protest. I was pointing out that, while you may have one view of how people experience the country, others may have another view.

You're right that Jim Crow laws are no longer on the books, and in that manner we longer have explicitly racist laws trying to hold down a specific race of individuals. But that is/was not the only racist burden that people of color had to deal with, and there are still both explicit race issues (see: Charlottesville) and implicit racial issues (see: police brutality) that we as a country need to struggle with and overcome.

I guess this is is another version of "it's a black thing, you wouldn't understand."

I understand that a Dalmation dog is not lily white, but neither is it all black just because it has some spots. IMO, police brutality is a spot, yet the protest deems it the color of the dog.

As for Charlottesville, if only the White Supremacists had been allowed to march in obscurity and rail at each other with no audience, Charlottesville would be a symbol of nothing much. If a tree falls in the forest, it makes a sound, but if nobody is there to hear it, so what?

I think there are plenty of situations where no one will ever truly understand the experience of another, but they can take a step back, listen, believe, and empathize. I won't know what it is like to be a midwestern farm hand, and all of the trials and tribulations associated with that, but I can listen to the stories my dad tells from his summer on the farm and believe he is speaking the truth and empathize with how difficult bailing hay can be.

And when it comes to being a person of color in the US, I won't ever be able to understand what that is like, but I can read points of view from authors like Ta-Nehisi Coates and believe them, digest them, and empathize with them. Anectodotal evidence like that, coupled with statistics of the likelihood of people of color to die or be brutalized at the hands of police (https://www.google.es/amp/s/www.vanityfa...bias/amp), make me more likely to believe that there are still issues of race that our country must overcome, than there aren't.

I also wanted to point out the irony and hypocrisy of Trump trying to wrap himself in the flag and talking about the sacrifices of veterans, when during the campaign he was perfectly willing to attack a gold star family and say that John McCain was only a hero because he got captured.

But a black man silently taking a knee to protest racial injustices? That's offensive.

(09-25-2017 10:25 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(09-25-2017 08:20 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(09-25-2017 02:37 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(09-25-2017 12:24 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(09-24-2017 10:28 PM)westsidewolf1989 Wrote:  How would you suggest people express their disagreement with regard to "cases of somebody getting oppressed"? I literally don't understand the issue with their manner of protest...I don't sing during the national anthem, so should the person next to me then accuse me of being an unpatriotic commie pig?

Why don't you sing? I usually sing along very low, barely moving my lips, because I have a horrible singing voice. Also, I tend to get choked up a bit.

If you didn't sing because you wanted to draw attention to your opinion that the US is an oppressive country...that's not the same, is it? Not every case of not singing is the same.

As for how to express disagreement, there are lots of ways. You didn't think kneeling during the anthem was the only choice, did you? But if, for example, you thought a bank was denying loans based on race, how about picketing the bank? Seems like dissing the entire country is a bit much. Maybe you could try speaking about it to people. Or wearing a teeshirt with "Ninth Bank is racist" on it. Or...

hey, I'm not trying to stop them. Stop trying to make me like it.

You don't have to like it, and I wasn't trying to get you to like it. However, it seemed like you were suggesting you didn't understand why they were kneeling and what the point of the protest was, and that the men kneeling did not have a valid reason to protest. I was pointing out that, while you may have one view of how people experience the country, others may have another view.

You're right that Jim Crow laws are no longer on the books, and in that manner we longer have explicitly racist laws trying to hold down a specific race of individuals. But that is/was not the only racist burden that people of color had to deal with, and there are still both explicit race issues (see: Charlottesville) and implicit racial issues (see: police brutality) that we as a country need to struggle with and overcome.

I guess this is is another version of "it's a black thing, you wouldn't understand."

I understand that a Dalmation dog is not lily white, but neither is it all black just because it has some spots. IMO, police brutality is a spot, yet the protest deems it the color of the dog.

As for Charlottesville, if only the White Supremacists had been allowed to march in obscurity and rail at each other with no audience, Charlottesville would be a symbol of nothing much. If a tree falls in the forest, it makes a sound, but if nobody is there to hear it, so what?

I think there are plenty of situations where no one will ever truly understand the experience of another, but they can take a step back, listen, believe, and empathize. I won't know what it is like to be a midwestern farm hand, and all of the trials and tribulations associated with that, but I can listen to the stories my dad tells from his summer on the farm and believe he is speaking the truth and empathize with how difficult bailing hay can be.

And when it comes to being a person of color in the US, I won't ever be able to understand what that is like, but I can read points of view from authors like Ta-Nehisi Coates and believe them, digest them, and empathize with them. Anectodotal evidence like that, coupled with statistics of the likelihood of people of color to die or be brutalized at the hands of police (https://www.google.es/amp/s/www.vanityfa...bias/amp), make me more likely to believe that there are still issues of race that our country must overcome, than there aren't.

But does the fact that there are still incidents of racism make this an oppressive country? I think this calls for a yes or no answer.

If the answer is no, then is it appropriate to disrespect the symbols of the entire country? Again, yes or no.

lest we forget, here are Kaepernick's words:

"I am not going to stand up to show pride in a flag for a country that oppresses black people and people of color," Kaepernick told NFL Media in an exclusive interview after the game.

I cannot point to any national or state law that oppresses people of color.

i don't understand everything you experienced, or Joe or Fred or Juan or Jamaal, and you don't know my experiences. But we all lived in this country, and based on my experience living in this country, I say the answer to the first question is no, and therefore the protest is inappropriate. I am not going to protest the entire dairy industry because somebody in Pittsburg got a bad carton of milk.

(09-25-2017 09:54 AM)JustAnotherAustinOwl Wrote:  Lock him up!

http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2...-confirms?

Agreed, too bad you dont regarding Hillary and presumably at least a couple of Obama era cabinet level personnel and immediate next-level who did so with regards to FOIA issues in a blatant manner.

Btw, would you care to include where Kushner used the account with classified information? You *do* know that the portions that Hillary should have been charged with dealt with that? But interestingly enough, those who seem to post this new item fail to take that into account. When you can provide me with the evidence that Kushner pushed CI through his email account I will be more than on board with this.

Nonetheles, welcome (belatedly) to the 'enforce the rule of law' club!!!

(09-25-2017 10:43 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(09-25-2017 10:25 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(09-25-2017 08:20 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(09-25-2017 02:37 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(09-25-2017 12:24 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  Why don't you sing? I usually sing along very low, barely moving my lips, because I have a horrible singing voice. Also, I tend to get choked up a bit.

If you didn't sing because you wanted to draw attention to your opinion that the US is an oppressive country...that's not the same, is it? Not every case of not singing is the same.

As for how to express disagreement, there are lots of ways. You didn't think kneeling during the anthem was the only choice, did you? But if, for example, you thought a bank was denying loans based on race, how about picketing the bank? Seems like dissing the entire country is a bit much. Maybe you could try speaking about it to people. Or wearing a teeshirt with "Ninth Bank is racist" on it. Or...

hey, I'm not trying to stop them. Stop trying to make me like it.

You don't have to like it, and I wasn't trying to get you to like it. However, it seemed like you were suggesting you didn't understand why they were kneeling and what the point of the protest was, and that the men kneeling did not have a valid reason to protest. I was pointing out that, while you may have one view of how people experience the country, others may have another view.

You're right that Jim Crow laws are no longer on the books, and in that manner we longer have explicitly racist laws trying to hold down a specific race of individuals. But that is/was not the only racist burden that people of color had to deal with, and there are still both explicit race issues (see: Charlottesville) and implicit racial issues (see: police brutality) that we as a country need to struggle with and overcome.

I guess this is is another version of "it's a black thing, you wouldn't understand."

I understand that a Dalmation dog is not lily white, but neither is it all black just because it has some spots. IMO, police brutality is a spot, yet the protest deems it the color of the dog.

As for Charlottesville, if only the White Supremacists had been allowed to march in obscurity and rail at each other with no audience, Charlottesville would be a symbol of nothing much. If a tree falls in the forest, it makes a sound, but if nobody is there to hear it, so what?

I think there are plenty of situations where no one will ever truly understand the experience of another, but they can take a step back, listen, believe, and empathize. I won't know what it is like to be a midwestern farm hand, and all of the trials and tribulations associated with that, but I can listen to the stories my dad tells from his summer on the farm and believe he is speaking the truth and empathize with how difficult bailing hay can be.

And when it comes to being a person of color in the US, I won't ever be able to understand what that is like, but I can read points of view from authors like Ta-Nehisi Coates and believe them, digest them, and empathize with them. Anectodotal evidence like that, coupled with statistics of the likelihood of people of color to die or be brutalized at the hands of police (https://www.google.es/amp/s/www.vanityfa...bias/amp), make me more likely to believe that there are still issues of race that our country must overcome, than there aren't.

But does the fact that there are still incidents of racism make this an oppressive country? I think this calls for a yes or no answer.

If the answer is no, then is it appropriate to disrespect the symbols of the entire country? Again, yes or no.

lest we forget, here are Kaepernick's words:

"I am not going to stand up to show pride in a flag for a country that oppresses black people and people of color," Kaepernick told NFL Media in an exclusive interview after the game.

I cannot point to any national or state law that oppresses people of color.

i don't understand everything you experienced, or Joe or Fred or Juan or Jamaal, and you don't know my experiences. But we all lived in this country, and based on my experience living in this country, I say the answer to the first question is no, and therefore the protest is inappropriate. I am not going to protest the entire dairy industry because somebody in Pittsburg got a bad carton of milk.

If the dairy industry offered a decent size bloc of votes, I am sure at least one party would jump quickly and wholeheartedly into promoting that divide and injustice.

Some have learned the politics of division and victimhood typically pays off handsomely relative to the effort expended.