The unofficial online home for fans of the Old Dominion University Monarchs. Part of Collegiate Sports Nation (CSN).

There is a substantial amount of bait and switch on both sides of this issue. When I found out about the potential for the Cox bill, I contacted all of our Hampton Roads VGA delegation as well as our Administrstion and based on this authored several posts and addressed PM's from a number of you. In hindsight, my assessment is that ODU was snookered but you will never hear an admission of this since our powers that be don't want to alienate the money folks in the VGA. If there is a silver lining to this it is that our athletic program growth is being funded by donors which to me is the way that it should be. My greater concern is the overall quality of incoming students and moreover the value of a college degree from schools such as ODU. This is not healthy and must be reversed (see posts in related thread ODU Enrollment Decline and Academics).

This bill reminds me of most health care bills that have been presented
It does not and will not solve the problem.
All we hear from hospitals is- The cost of care is sky rocketing.
All we hear from Universities is -The cost of education is sky rocketing
The odd thing to me is look around at most major hospitals and universities
I see A lot of cranes in the sky and new buildings going up.
You must have some margins!
Where is all that money coming from?
It's all an Arms Race!!
Got to keep up.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

(09-14-2017 07:43 PM)Monarchblue Wrote:  

(09-14-2017 07:09 PM)GhentFan Wrote:  

(09-14-2017 06:07 PM)The Flagship Wrote:  I wish ill will on Cox, and I'm not the slightest bit remorseful for those feelings. I understand he has the right to be wrong. Everybody does. Just don't be wrong in my house.

How is he wrong exactly?

Because he is screwing us over and not doing a single substantive thing for the skyrocketing cost of a college degree. Its a dog and pony show.

Sent from my Pixel C using Tapatalk

We assume that the bill was targeting ODU. I have not read anything from him that says that specifically and probably never will. While the bill did not lower the overall cost of tuition, it may have slowed the continued increase.

I'm not going to be popular for saying this, and I know I already ruffle some of your feathers for my other views. But I feel this bill was needed, or something like this many years ago. The mission of the university is to educate it's students first and foremost. Not provide alum and the surrounding area with sports events to watch.

The cap of students fees could be worse. Imagine if the federal government refuses to provide funds via loans / grants / GI Bill to any university that bills students for anything other than what the costs of educating said student.

Our Administration should stand up and publically state that until the State provides us 100% of our base adequacy funding we will not move towards meeting the Cox law mandate. It is that simple. JMU, VT, UVA all receive +100% of the BAF. That is unacceptable and limits our ability to move the University forward. The state legislature asks us to focus on diversity yet do not help ODU financially to the level they support other significantly less diverse Universities. Why ?

(09-15-2017 09:16 AM)GhentFan Wrote:  

(09-14-2017 07:43 PM)Monarchblue Wrote:  

(09-14-2017 07:09 PM)GhentFan Wrote:  

(09-14-2017 06:07 PM)The Flagship Wrote:  I wish ill will on Cox, and I'm not the slightest bit remorseful for those feelings. I understand he has the right to be wrong. Everybody does. Just don't be wrong in my house.

How is he wrong exactly?

Because he is screwing us over and not doing a single substantive thing for the skyrocketing cost of a college degree. Its a dog and pony show.

Sent from my Pixel C using Tapatalk

We assume that the bill was targeting ODU. I have not read anything from him that says that specifically and probably never will. While the bill did not lower the overall cost of tuition, it may have slowed the continued increase.

I'm not going to be popular for saying this, and I know I already ruffle some of your feathers for my other views. But I feel this bill was needed, or something like this many years ago. The mission of the university is to educate it's students first and foremost. Not provide alum and the surrounding area with sports events to watch.

The cap of students fees could be worse. Imagine if the federal government refuses to provide funds via loans / grants / GI Bill to any university that bills students for anything other than what the costs of educating said student.

No feathers ruffled, but I respectfully disagree. As an alum and a parent of two kids who attend or graduated from ODU, I feel qualified to offer an opinion. The financial decision about where to send your kids to college is based on the total cost of attendance, not the specific details of how much one fee or another will cost. Frankly, I don't care what the athletic fee or the information technology fee is. I care what my total out-of-pocket costs will be at the end of the year. A strong athletic program with top notch facilities adds to the overall college experience for students and alumni, and improves recruitment.

(09-15-2017 09:16 AM)GhentFan Wrote:  

(09-14-2017 07:43 PM)Monarchblue Wrote:  

(09-14-2017 07:09 PM)GhentFan Wrote:  

(09-14-2017 06:07 PM)The Flagship Wrote:  I wish ill will on Cox, and I'm not the slightest bit remorseful for those feelings. I understand he has the right to be wrong. Everybody does. Just don't be wrong in my house.

How is he wrong exactly?

Because he is screwing us over and not doing a single substantive thing for the skyrocketing cost of a college degree. Its a dog and pony show.

Sent from my Pixel C using Tapatalk

We assume that the bill was targeting ODU. I have not read anything from him that says that specifically and probably never will. While the bill did not lower the overall cost of tuition, it may have slowed the continued increase.

I'm not going to be popular for saying this, and I know I already ruffle some of your feathers for my other views. But I feel this bill was needed, or something like this many years ago. The mission of the university is to educate it's students first and foremost. Not provide alum and the surrounding area with sports events to watch.

The cap of students fees could be worse. Imagine if the federal government refuses to provide funds via loans / grants / GI Bill to any university that bills students for anything other than what the costs of educating said student.

I think the biggest issue was the bill only required changes from like 3 universities, and one of those only required an accounting change (JMU moving band and cheerleading out of athletics G/L got them in compliance). The only schools impacted in any real sense are ODU and NSU, who both offer 2 of the cheapest tuition costs in the state. That's why it feels like we were targeted.

A good bill would have impacted total tuition costs at all public universities in the state.

I think most would be content with the law if it that a was the case.

(09-15-2017 09:16 AM)GhentFan Wrote:  

(09-14-2017 07:43 PM)Monarchblue Wrote:  

(09-14-2017 07:09 PM)GhentFan Wrote:  

(09-14-2017 06:07 PM)The Flagship Wrote:  I wish ill will on Cox, and I'm not the slightest bit remorseful for those feelings. I understand he has the right to be wrong. Everybody does. Just don't be wrong in my house.

How is he wrong exactly?

Because he is screwing us over and not doing a single substantive thing for the skyrocketing cost of a college degree. Its a dog and pony show.

Sent from my Pixel C using Tapatalk

We assume that the bill was targeting ODU. I have not read anything from him that says that specifically and probably never will. While the bill did not lower the overall cost of tuition, it may have slowed the continued increase.

I'm not going to be popular for saying this, and I know I already ruffle some of your feathers for my other views. But I feel this bill was needed, or something like this many years ago. The mission of the university is to educate it's students first and foremost. Not provide alum and the surrounding area with sports events to watch.

The cap of students fees could be worse. Imagine if the federal government refuses to provide funds via loans / grants / GI Bill to any university that bills students for anything other than what the costs of educating said student.

The Bill was targeting Cox's Alma Mater, JMU. ODU was in the wrong place at the wrong time.

JMU had just released the results of a commissioned external FBS feasibility study issued by Carr Sports. It was positive as to JMU's ability to move up with respect to financials and logistics. Indeed there was a bona fide offer (as stated by the SBC commissioner after the fact) from the SBC and it looked like JMU was poised to move soon.

Additionally, under the Cox fisaco, any school moving up to FBS would require Legislative approval. That was directed exclusively at JMU as it is the only Va. public with any chance of moving up in the next 30 years. (CNU could be in the discussion down the road).
Under the current landscape, if a conference is interested in a school, there is a back channel communication assessing it's interest. If it is determined that the school would join if offered, then a public offer is made. Otherwise we often never hear anything more than rumors.
Under the Cox bill, then, a school would first have to get Legislative approval FIRST. This likely would make any Virginia school a pariah with respect to the current process.

Alumnus Cox was targeting James Madison, and we got caught in the crossfire.
What disappointed me is that so many of us saw this coming, but the ODU administration publicly supported the legislation from the time of it's proposal.

(09-15-2017 10:10 AM)MONARCHSWIN Wrote:  

(09-15-2017 09:16 AM)GhentFan Wrote:  

(09-14-2017 07:43 PM)Monarchblue Wrote:  

(09-14-2017 07:09 PM)GhentFan Wrote:  

(09-14-2017 06:07 PM)The Flagship Wrote:  I wish ill will on Cox, and I'm not the slightest bit remorseful for those feelings. I understand he has the right to be wrong. Everybody does. Just don't be wrong in my house.

How is he wrong exactly?

Because he is screwing us over and not doing a single substantive thing for the skyrocketing cost of a college degree. Its a dog and pony show.

Sent from my Pixel C using Tapatalk

We assume that the bill was targeting ODU. I have not read anything from him that says that specifically and probably never will. While the bill did not lower the overall cost of tuition, it may have slowed the continued increase.

I'm not going to be popular for saying this, and I know I already ruffle some of your feathers for my other views. But I feel this bill was needed, or something like this many years ago. The mission of the university is to educate it's students first and foremost. Not provide alum and the surrounding area with sports events to watch.

The cap of students fees could be worse. Imagine if the federal government refuses to provide funds via loans / grants / GI Bill to any university that bills students for anything other than what the costs of educating said student.

No feathers ruffled, but I respectfully disagree. As an alum and a parent of two kids who attend or graduated from ODU, I feel qualified to offer an opinion. The financial decision about where to send your kids to college is based on the total cost of attendance, not the specific details of how much one fee or another will cost. Frankly, I don't care what the athletic fee or the information technology fee is. I care what my total out-of-pocket costs will be at the end of the year. A strong athletic program with top notch facilities adds to the overall college experience for students and alumni, and improves recruitment.

I appreciate your opinion. Thank you for that. As a current student, I personally feel that the funds for the athletic department could be better spent in buying equipment for the University.

Examples: Physics Lab. We were unable to do 2 labs, and had to watch the TA demonstrate 1 lab as there were simply not enough functional equipment. Nevermind some of the equipment that was functional still resulted in some crazy readings due to cal issues or other problems.

Chemistry Lab, Not enough glass to do experiments.

Fluid Mechanics Lab, Dropped 3 out of the 10 labs for the class due to equipment being broken (1 example the equipment was tossed and not replaced). Had to modify a few labs due to not having enough weights, test samples etc....

In Kauffman hall room 105, there is a broken table. It is currently being propped up with books as the school apparently doesn't have the funds to replace it.

The business school (as far as I know) still doesn't have enough advisors to properly guide students. They put tables out in the hall and you just walk up in a first come first serve manner, all the while there are 10+ people deep waiting their turn. So you are rushed. (Thankfully the Engineering Department isn't that bad).

I could go on...

It's difficult for me not to imagine how all of these issues could be addressed with the money spent on athletics. I'm sure providing better pay for the professors would result in some more fantastic talent flocking to the school. I'm not sure if your kids have had to deal with Dr. Kim in the MET office for any electives. No idea how that man was able to teach.

(09-15-2017 10:31 AM)ODUDrunkard13 Wrote:  .......
I think the biggest issue was the bill only required changes from like 3 universities, and one of those only required an accounting change (JMU moving band and cheerleading out of athletics G/L got them in compliance). The only schools impacted in any real sense are ODU and NSU, who both offer 2 of the cheapest tuition costs in the state. That's why it feels like we were targeted.

A good bill would have impacted total tuition costs at all public universities in the state.

I think most would be content with the law if it that a was the case.

I agree with you 100% on this. How that would look like (UVA and VT forced to send funds to ALL public universities in VA to make it level?

Cap on funds each school can spend on a program, with the excess going back to the state or other schools?

Increase taxes in the state to lower the cost students pay at the school?

Perhaps now that the groundwork has been laid, a better bill can fix the problems tied to the Cox Bill.

(09-15-2017 09:16 AM)GhentFan Wrote:  

(09-14-2017 07:43 PM)Monarchblue Wrote:  

(09-14-2017 07:09 PM)GhentFan Wrote:  

(09-14-2017 06:07 PM)The Flagship Wrote:  I wish ill will on Cox, and I'm not the slightest bit remorseful for those feelings. I understand he has the right to be wrong. Everybody does. Just don't be wrong in my house.

How is he wrong exactly?

Because he is screwing us over and not doing a single substantive thing for the skyrocketing cost of a college degree. Its a dog and pony show.

Sent from my Pixel C using Tapatalk

We assume that the bill was targeting ODU. I have not read anything from him that says that specifically and probably never will. While the bill did not lower the overall cost of tuition, it may have slowed the continued increase.

I'm not going to be popular for saying this, and I know I already ruffle some of your feathers for my other views. But I feel this bill was needed, or something like this many years ago. The mission of the university is to educate it's students first and foremost. Not provide alum and the surrounding area with sports events to watch.

The cap of students fees could be worse. Imagine if the federal government refuses to provide funds via loans / grants / GI Bill to any university that bills students for anything other than what the costs of educating said student.

I am not one of those who believe that the bill was targeted at ODU, I just think we are the only ones who got screwed by it. JMU is fine. They are spending G5 money in FCS. UVA and VT are fine, they have ACC money. We, however, were affected a lot.

I respect your position on getting cost under control, and frankly am in complete agreement. TUITION is out of control. It is completely unacceptable, but fees are such a small part of the overall cost, that nobody is even going to notice the saving that this bill is providing them, which is why I think the bill is nothing more than a dog and pony show.

(09-15-2017 10:31 AM)ODUDrunkard13 Wrote:  

(09-15-2017 09:16 AM)GhentFan Wrote:  

(09-14-2017 07:43 PM)Monarchblue Wrote:  

(09-14-2017 07:09 PM)GhentFan Wrote:  

(09-14-2017 06:07 PM)The Flagship Wrote:  I wish ill will on Cox, and I'm not the slightest bit remorseful for those feelings. I understand he has the right to be wrong. Everybody does. Just don't be wrong in my house.

How is he wrong exactly?

Because he is screwing us over and not doing a single substantive thing for the skyrocketing cost of a college degree. Its a dog and pony show.

Sent from my Pixel C using Tapatalk

We assume that the bill was targeting ODU. I have not read anything from him that says that specifically and probably never will. While the bill did not lower the overall cost of tuition, it may have slowed the continued increase.

I'm not going to be popular for saying this, and I know I already ruffle some of your feathers for my other views. But I feel this bill was needed, or something like this many years ago. The mission of the university is to educate it's students first and foremost. Not provide alum and the surrounding area with sports events to watch.

The cap of students fees could be worse. Imagine if the federal government refuses to provide funds via loans / grants / GI Bill to any university that bills students for anything other than what the costs of educating said student.

I think the biggest issue was the bill only required changes from like 3 universities, and one of those only required an accounting change (JMU moving band and cheerleading out of athletics G/L got them in compliance). The only schools impacted in any real sense are ODU and NSU, who both offer 2 of the cheapest tuition costs in the state. That's why it feels like we were targeted.

A good bill would have impacted total tuition costs at all public universities in the state.

I think most would be content with the law if it that a was the case.

It may feel like that, however I cannot see to what end "targeting" ODU and even more so NSU, makes any sense whatsoever.
As stated the Cox legislation has not, nor in it's current form will it in the future appreciably affect college tuition/total costs in Virginia.

However, for JMU, this stops them cold.

- JMU's athletic budget rivals those at the top of G5 even now
- JMU cannot cut anymore sports, as they are currently at the minimum allowed for Div 1 classification
- the Legislative approval requirement for FBS move-ups virtually assures them of not even being considered within the current precedent standards.
-It was very convenient and cozy for JMU to be able to redefine it's P/L categories to become compliant.
JMU has zero options to (maybe ever) move beyond it's current situation.

ODU will struggle, likely more-so than it would have prior to Cox. However we still have options (some very distasteful, like cutting sports) that can facilitate
our moving forward.
NSU is a somewhat tangential issue, as that discussion probably should include the steady decline of HBCUs in general.

IMHO, the Cox legislation is an abject failure with respect to it's stated purpose, but accomplished it's hidden agenda admirably.

It is a shame that NSU is in such a mess. Hampton University is one of the best HBSU's in the nation. The admin at NSU could and should try to copy their success. The blueprint is only a few miles away... While an improved NSU might take away students from Hampton, it would also help elevate HBSU's as a whole.

Part of me was sort of hoping for NSU to close and ODU taking over that campus. Another part of me understands that NSU and other HBSU's are important to the communities they serve and for some people an HBSU is their only real option. I feel for the students that are currently attending and it's alum population. Some very well might be missing opportunities due to the perception that the school is on shaky ground and top students and professors are more than likely going to go elsewhere.

Sports isn't going to fix that school. Academics and MUCH better leadership and staff will.

FWIW, it's HBCU not HBSU.

(09-15-2017 02:15 PM)ODUDrunkard13 Wrote:  FWIW, it's HBCU not HBSU.

Woops, that's what I meant. Thanks!

(09-15-2017 02:22 PM)GhentFan Wrote:  

(09-15-2017 02:15 PM)ODUDrunkard13 Wrote:  FWIW, it's HBCU not HBSU.

Woops, that's what I meant. Thanks!

Also, Hampton University is private, sets their own tuition rates, etc., etc. NSU is public and has to rely on the Virginia Legislature for funding. There you have it!

(09-15-2017 01:31 PM)ODUalum78 Wrote:  

(09-15-2017 10:31 AM)ODUDrunkard13 Wrote:  

(09-15-2017 09:16 AM)GhentFan Wrote:  

(09-14-2017 07:43 PM)Monarchblue Wrote:  

(09-14-2017 07:09 PM)GhentFan Wrote:  How is he wrong exactly?

Because he is screwing us over and not doing a single substantive thing for the skyrocketing cost of a college degree. Its a dog and pony show.

Sent from my Pixel C using Tapatalk

We assume that the bill was targeting ODU. I have not read anything from him that says that specifically and probably never will. While the bill did not lower the overall cost of tuition, it may have slowed the continued increase.

I'm not going to be popular for saying this, and I know I already ruffle some of your feathers for my other views. But I feel this bill was needed, or something like this many years ago. The mission of the university is to educate it's students first and foremost. Not provide alum and the surrounding area with sports events to watch.

The cap of students fees could be worse. Imagine if the federal government refuses to provide funds via loans / grants / GI Bill to any university that bills students for anything other than what the costs of educating said student.

I think the biggest issue was the bill only required changes from like 3 universities, and one of those only required an accounting change (JMU moving band and cheerleading out of athletics G/L got them in compliance). The only schools impacted in any real sense are ODU and NSU, who both offer 2 of the cheapest tuition costs in the state. That's why it feels like we were targeted.

A good bill would have impacted total tuition costs at all public universities in the state.

I think most would be content with the law if it that a was the case.

It may feel like that, however I cannot see to what end "targeting" ODU and even more so NSU, makes any sense whatsoever.
As stated the Cox legislation has not, nor in it's current form will it in the future appreciably affect college tuition/total costs in Virginia.

However, for JMU, this stops them cold.

- JMU's athletic budget rivals those at the top of G5 even now
- JMU cannot cut anymore sports, as they are currently at the minimum allowed for Div 1 classification
- the Legislative approval requirement for FBS move-ups virtually assures them of not even being considered within the current precedent standards.
-It was very convenient and cozy for JMU to be able to redefine it's P/L categories to become compliant.
JMU has zero options to (maybe ever) move beyond it's current situation.

ODU will struggle, likely more-so than it would have prior to Cox. However we still have options (some very distasteful, like cutting sports) that can facilitate
our moving forward.
NSU is a somewhat tangential issue, as that discussion probably should include the steady decline of HBCUs in general.

IMHO, the Cox legislation is an abject failure with respect to it's stated purpose, but accomplished it's hidden agenda admirably.

I don't think it was that conspiratorial. I think they wanted to get a bill through so it LOOKED like they were doing something, so they found a way to craft the bill that wouldn't much affect the majority of state schools, in order to avoid a fight. We were just a casualty because we are an outlier, and we don't have enough political clout to fight them.

Sent from my Pixel C using Tapatalk

(09-15-2017 01:44 PM)GhentFan Wrote:  It is a shame that NSU is in such a mess. Hampton University is one of the best HBSU's in the nation. The admin at NSU could and should try to copy their success. The blueprint is only a few miles away... While an improved NSU might take away students from Hampton, it would also help elevate HBSU's as a whole.

Part of me was sort of hoping for NSU to close and ODU taking over that campus. Another part of me understands that NSU and other HBSU's are important to the communities they serve and for some people an HBSU is their only real option. I feel for the students that are currently attending and it's alum population. Some very well might be missing opportunities due to the perception that the school is on shaky ground and top students and professors are more than likely going to go elsewhere.

Sports isn't going to fix that school. Academics and MUCH better leadership and staff will.

Hampton is a private school and has a ton of prestige attached to its history. Not so easy for NSU to just copy them.

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(09-15-2017 07:57 PM)ziggy1 Wrote:  

(09-15-2017 02:22 PM)GhentFan Wrote:  

(09-15-2017 02:15 PM)ODUDrunkard13 Wrote:  FWIW, it's HBCU not HBSU.

Woops, that's what I meant. Thanks!

Also, Hampton University is private, sets their own tuition rates, etc., etc. NSU is public and has to rely on the Virginia Legislature for funding. There you have it!

Wait. So NSU is at a disadvantage because the state provides them money, while Hampton has to support itself? That doesn't make much sense.

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(09-15-2017 08:26 PM)Monarchblue Wrote:  

(09-15-2017 07:57 PM)ziggy1 Wrote:  

(09-15-2017 02:22 PM)GhentFan Wrote:  

(09-15-2017 02:15 PM)ODUDrunkard13 Wrote:  FWIW, it's HBCU not HBSU.

Woops, that's what I meant. Thanks!

Also, Hampton University is private, sets their own tuition rates, etc., etc. NSU is public and has to rely on the Virginia Legislature for funding. There you have it!

Wait. So NSU is at a disadvantage because the state provides them money, while Hampton has to support itself? That doesn't make much sense.

Sent from my Pixel C using Tapatalk

Many privates are very well off. Stanford and Wake Forest are private. Just here in Virginia; Washington & Lee, University of Richmond, and of course Liberty come to mind. They are extremely well off.
William and Mary, which is a hybrid, part private and part public is actively looking at going completely private because of the proscriptions and periodic changes (political winds) that accompany the policies forced on public State institutions.

I get all of that, but Ziggy seemed to imply that Hampton has more money than NSU because they don't get state money which makes no sense at all.

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk

Hampton has a more wealthy alumni base and donors. Pretty sure UR was funded by the baptist denomination for a long time, a may still be.