(08-30-2017 12:33 PM)megadrone Wrote:  

(08-30-2017 12:19 PM)NJ2MDTerp Wrote:  

(08-30-2017 10:11 AM)micahandme Wrote:  Penn State proposed a Football East conference in the mid-eighties. Pitt, their chief rival, rejected the proposal. What if...

The Eastern independents joined in the mid-eighties.
Penn State
Pitt
Florida State
Miami
Syracuse
Boston College
West Virginia
Rutgers
Virginia Tech
Temple as team #10?

That is a heck of sports conference (and pre-2000, 8-team conferences were the norm) for the 80s and 90s. PSU, FSU, and Miami did massive damage through those decades.

I think the question then would have become what happens to the ACC. Their football survival fell heavily on the additions of FSU in the 90s and the VaTech and Miami in the 2000s. If those three teams were nestled in the powerful All-East conference, I don't see how they don't become a marginal Power 5 conference (with Clemson as its only semi-power in football).

11. South Carolina
12. Connecticut

In this timeline UConn doesn't upgrade and stays a 1AA/Yankee Conference school. Not enough incentive without the Big East football invitation.

I added Connecticut because they were NIT Champs in 87-88 and Big East Tournament Champs in 89-90, making it to the NCAA final eight that year. I'm assuming that the basketball success and the formation of a new eastern conference would be enough incentive for them to upgrade football immediately.

(08-30-2017 12:25 PM)BePcr07 Wrote:  

(08-30-2017 12:19 PM)NJ2MDTerp Wrote:  

(08-30-2017 10:11 AM)micahandme Wrote:  Penn State proposed a Football East conference in the mid-eighties. Pitt, their chief rival, rejected the proposal. What if...

The Eastern independents joined in the mid-eighties.
Penn State
Pitt
Florida State
Miami
Syracuse
Boston College
West Virginia
Rutgers
Virginia Tech
Temple as team #10?

That is a heck of sports conference (and pre-2000, 8-team conferences were the norm) for the 80s and 90s. PSU, FSU, and Miami did massive damage through those decades.

I think the question then would have become what happens to the ACC. Their football survival fell heavily on the additions of FSU in the 90s and the VaTech and Miami in the 2000s. If those three teams were nestled in the powerful All-East conference, I don't see how they don't become a marginal Power 5 conference (with Clemson as its only semi-power in football).

11. South Carolina
12. Connecticut

Do they split rivals into 2 divisions (have 1 permanent crossover) or do they go geographical?

Rival Split -
X: Florida St, Syracuse, Pittsburgh, West Virginia, Connecticut, Temple
Y: Miami, Boston College, Penn St, Virginia Tech, Rutgers, South Carolina
*last one is super forced*

Geography -
South: Miami, Florida St, South Carolina, Virginia Tech, West Virginia, Pittsburgh
North: Penn St, Temple, Rutgers, Syracuse, Boston College, Connecticut
*fairly uneven*

Under Rival Split, I'd flip Syracuse and South Carolina.

(08-30-2017 01:16 PM)NJ2MDTerp Wrote:  

(08-30-2017 12:33 PM)megadrone Wrote:  

(08-30-2017 12:19 PM)NJ2MDTerp Wrote:  

(08-30-2017 10:11 AM)micahandme Wrote:  Penn State proposed a Football East conference in the mid-eighties. Pitt, their chief rival, rejected the proposal. What if...

The Eastern independents joined in the mid-eighties.
Penn State
Pitt
Florida State
Miami
Syracuse
Boston College
West Virginia
Rutgers
Virginia Tech
Temple as team #10?

That is a heck of sports conference (and pre-2000, 8-team conferences were the norm) for the 80s and 90s. PSU, FSU, and Miami did massive damage through those decades.

I think the question then would have become what happens to the ACC. Their football survival fell heavily on the additions of FSU in the 90s and the VaTech and Miami in the 2000s. If those three teams were nestled in the powerful All-East conference, I don't see how they don't become a marginal Power 5 conference (with Clemson as its only semi-power in football).

11. South Carolina
12. Connecticut

In this timeline UConn doesn't upgrade and stays a 1AA/Yankee Conference school. Not enough incentive without the Big East football invitation.

I added Connecticut because they were NIT Champs in 87-88 and Big East Tournament Champs in 89-90, making it to the NCAA final eight that year. I'm assuming that the basketball success and the formation of a new eastern conference would be enough incentive for them to upgrade football immediately.

The thing is though that they didn't upgrade to I-A in our timeline when their own primary conference added football. So I'm not sure they'd be more compelled to upgrade if a new eastern football conference formed instead.

(08-30-2017 01:21 PM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  

(08-30-2017 01:16 PM)NJ2MDTerp Wrote:  

(08-30-2017 12:33 PM)megadrone Wrote:  

(08-30-2017 12:19 PM)NJ2MDTerp Wrote:  

(08-30-2017 10:11 AM)micahandme Wrote:  Penn State proposed a Football East conference in the mid-eighties. Pitt, their chief rival, rejected the proposal. What if...

The Eastern independents joined in the mid-eighties.
Penn State
Pitt
Florida State
Miami
Syracuse
Boston College
West Virginia
Rutgers
Virginia Tech
Temple as team #10?

That is a heck of sports conference (and pre-2000, 8-team conferences were the norm) for the 80s and 90s. PSU, FSU, and Miami did massive damage through those decades.

I think the question then would have become what happens to the ACC. Their football survival fell heavily on the additions of FSU in the 90s and the VaTech and Miami in the 2000s. If those three teams were nestled in the powerful All-East conference, I don't see how they don't become a marginal Power 5 conference (with Clemson as its only semi-power in football).

11. South Carolina
12. Connecticut

In this timeline UConn doesn't upgrade and stays a 1AA/Yankee Conference school. Not enough incentive without the Big East football invitation.

I added Connecticut because they were NIT Champs in 87-88 and Big East Tournament Champs in 89-90, making it to the NCAA final eight that year. I'm assuming that the basketball success and the formation of a new eastern conference would be enough incentive for them to upgrade football immediately.

The thing is though that they didn't upgrade to I-A in our timeline when their own primary conference added football. So I'm not sure they'd be more compelled to upgrade if a new eastern football conference formed instead.

Then perhaps East Carolina should be #12.

(08-30-2017 01:40 PM)NJ2MDTerp Wrote:  

(08-30-2017 01:21 PM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  

(08-30-2017 01:16 PM)NJ2MDTerp Wrote:  

(08-30-2017 12:33 PM)megadrone Wrote:  

(08-30-2017 12:19 PM)NJ2MDTerp Wrote:  11. South Carolina
12. Connecticut

In this timeline UConn doesn't upgrade and stays a 1AA/Yankee Conference school. Not enough incentive without the Big East football invitation.

I added Connecticut because they were NIT Champs in 87-88 and Big East Tournament Champs in 89-90, making it to the NCAA final eight that year. I'm assuming that the basketball success and the formation of a new eastern conference would be enough incentive for them to upgrade football immediately.

The thing is though that they didn't upgrade to I-A in our timeline when their own primary conference added football. So I'm not sure they'd be more compelled to upgrade if a new eastern football conference formed instead.

Then perhaps East Carolina should be #12.

They might just stick at 10, especially if South Carolina goes to the SEC as in our timeline.

The Eastern League certainly would have shaken up the future of college sports alignment especially if the founding 10 were the original Big East FB conference plus Penn St and Florida St.

Things would get interesting around the time the SEC went to 12. South Carolina would probably be in a position where they had two offers to choose from. I'm inclined to think that the Eastern league would be in the position to add a pair of ACC schools--shrinking an 8 team league down to 6. Circa 2010 I think the remaining schools get divided up also as UVA and NC schools would be easy pickings in a weakened ACC.

Border Conference: With Arizona, Arizona State and Texas Tech leaving.

San Diego State
Long Beach State
Fresno State
UNLV
Northern Arizona
BYU
New Mexico
New Mexico State
Air Force
Colorado State
UTEP
West Texas A&M
Hardin-Simmons

Big West, Big Sky, WAC and MWC would struggle to form. WAC could have grabbed both Montana schools, Fullerton State, Idaho, Cal.-Davis, UNR, Hawaii, and holding their nose, San Jose State. Big Sky would look more like the left over rejects of Big Sky, GNAC and RMAC schools.

What if Notre Dame had joined the Big Ten along with Nebraska to give that league 12 teams: would they have pursued further expansion at all (e.g. Penn State, etc.)?

What if Texas A&M had joined the SEC along with Arkansas (instead of South Carolina)?

What if the ACC had grabbed up Miami, South Carolina and Virginia Tech as 10, 11 and 12?

Do any/all of those leagues stop at 12 in those scenarios?

(08-31-2017 06:34 AM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  What if Notre Dame had joined the Big Ten along with Nebraska to give that league 12 teams: would they have pursued further expansion at all (e.g. Penn State, etc.)?

What if Texas A&M had joined the SEC along with Arkansas (instead of South Carolina)?

What if the ACC had grabbed up Miami, South Carolina and Virginia Tech as 10, 11 and 12?

Do any/all of those leagues stop at 12 in those scenarios?

Here's another wrinkle: the independents in the East aren't independent. The Metro sponsors football, keeping VT, FSU and South Carolina in the fray, and the Lambert schools form a football-only conference while that's still allowed.

If Florida State and South Carolina stay in the Metro, that's certainly an interesting scenario as it somewhat weakens the ACC. The Metro pushes to sponsor football and maybe adds Houston when the SWC breaks up (as C-USA does in our timeline).

That makes things very interesting. If Paterno's conference comes to fruition and the Metro stays together with FSU and USCe, the ACC maybe adds Miami, maybe not, and Virginia Tech stays with FSU and USCe in the Metro.

The Metro looks (more or less) like this:

FSU
VT
South Carolina
Houston
Louisville
Cincinnati
Memphis
Southern Miss
Tulane

and possibly ECU and its non-football schools (but they make it work)

Lambert School conference (NOT ALL SPORTS as Paterno wanted to do):
Boston College
Syracuse
Rutgers
Temple
Penn State (they don't go to the Big 10 in this timeline)
Pitt
West Virginia
perhaps Miami. Here's a problem -- with VT in the Metro, there isn't a great choice for school number 8 unless UMass or UConn upgrades to 1A and comes along from the Yankee Conference OR Villanova doesn't drop football and stays 1A. Maryland stays in the ACC. Miami is the last of the independents. Army and Navy aren't interested.

The Big East doesn't add football -- but this is the complication. BC, Pitt and Syracuse all are in the Big East, Penn State, Rutgers, Temple and WVU are all in the Atlantic 10. A merger between the Big East and the A10 would make the most sense but the Big East becomes the stronger basketball league (as in the current timeline) and they can't make it happen.

So the Lambert Conference breaks up because it doesn't get together until AFTER the Big East establishes itself as a major player in Men's Basketball. Would they be split among the Metro, ACC and Big 10 as in the current timeline? Is the Metro a power conference?

The Metro can take 2 schools out of the Lambert Conference, (WVU and Miami), the basketball-focused ACC takes 4 (Syracuse, BC, Pitt and Temple). Penn State is the biggest prize when the Lambert breaks up and still takes Rutgers with it to the Big 10. We assume that Rutgers and Temple don't have the horrid late 90s teams that they actually did and look valuable.

The question here is what happened to the Southwest Conference in this version of the timeline? We're assuming that TAMU and Houston are out. Do Arkansas, Texas and Texas Tech merge with the Big 8 and do they go to 11 or 12? Maybe with TCU? SMU, Rice and Baylor/TCU go to the WAC.

(08-31-2017 06:34 AM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  What if Notre Dame had joined the Big Ten along with Nebraska to give that league 12 teams: would they have pursued further expansion at all (e.g. Penn State, etc.)?

What if Texas A&M had joined the SEC along with Arkansas (instead of South Carolina)?

What if the ACC had grabbed up Miami, South Carolina and Virginia Tech as 10, 11 and 12?

Do any/all of those leagues stop at 12 in those scenarios?

SEC
West: Texas A&M, Arkansas, LSU, Mississippi, Mississippi St, Alabama
East: Kentucky, Tennessee, Vanderbilt, Georgia, Florida, Auburn

ACC
Atlantic: Clemson, Florida St, Maryland, North Carolina St, South Carolina, Wake Forest
Coastal: Duke, Georgia Tech, Miami, North Carolina, Virginia, Virginia Tech

B1G
Illinois, Indiana, Iowa, Michigan, Michigan St, Minnesota, Northwestern, Ohio St, Penn St, Purdue, Wisconsin

PAC
Arizona, Arizona St, California, Oregon, Oregon St, Stanford, UCLA, USC, Washington, Washington St

XII
North: Colorado, Iowa St, Kansas, Kansas St, Missouri, Nebraska
South: Baylor, Oklahoma, Oklahoma St, TCU, Texas, Texas Tech
*replaces Texas A&M with TCU to stay at 12 with 4 Texas schools; Houston considered*

Big East
Boston College, Cincinnati, Connecticut, Louisville, Pittsburgh, Rutgers, Syracuse, West Virginia
*adds Connecticut football; replaces Miami and Virginia Tech with Cincinnati and Louisville; Temple still gets dropped*

---

PAC sends outs 16-school proposal for Colorado, Oklahoma, Oklahoma St, TCU, Texas, and Texas Tech; unlike Texas A&M, TCU is on-board with whatever Texas says; Texas decides to go since they have the support of everyone invited

B1G sends out 16-school proposal for Kansas, Missouri, Nebraska, Rutgers, and Maryland; all 5 agree

SEC (boldly) sends out 16-school proposal for South Carolina, North Carolina, Duke, and Virginia; all 4 contemplate but agree to move

ACC, now down to 8, invites the 5 Big East remnants, along with Memphis, South Florida, and Temple to form a 16-school league.

Baylor, Kansas St, and Iowa St are left scrambling. Utah, unfortunately, never makes its way into a power conference.

New conference line-ups:

PAC
West: California, Oregon, Oregon St, Stanford, UCLA, USC, Washington, Washington St
East: Arizona, Arizona St, Colorado, Oklahoma, Oklahoma St, TCU, Texas, Texas Tech

B1G
West: Illinois, Iowa, Kansas, Minnesota, Missouri, Nebraska, Northwestern, Wisconsin
East: Indiana, Maryland, Michigan, Michigan St, Ohio St, Penn St, Purdue, Rutgers

SEC
West: Alabama, Arkansas, Auburn, LSU, Mississippi, Mississippi St, Texas A&M, Vanderbilt
East: Duke, Georgia, Florida, Kentucky, North Carolina, South Carolina, Tennessee, Virginia

ACC
North: Boston College, Cincinnati, Connecticut, Pittsburgh, Syracuse, Temple, Virginia Tech, West Virginia
South: Clemson, Florida St, Georgia Tech, Louisville, Memphis, North Carolina St, South Florida, Wake Forest

Assume some kind of arrangement came together with the following eastern independents after the Big East turn-down of PSU:

Army
Navy
Penn State
Temple
Rutgers
Miami
Florida State
Virginia Tech
South Carolina
West Virginia

You now have Pitt, BC, and Syracuse out of a structure with big public flagships and other prominent programs. The intention of this group isn't necessarily stability; it's network leveraging. And now it spans from NYC metro to southern FL with NY-NJ, Philly, Baltimore, and Miami all covered. This, I think, forces a huge panic attack for the SEC, ACC, and Big Ten. Does it trickle westward and force SWC and Big XII to alter course?

Does it essentially kill Big East football before it ever starts?

I can't imagine an eastern league without Pitt, Cuse, and BC...but, since it never really happened to begin with, what about a different slant on it and the consequences of a new "big school" football conference?

(08-31-2017 09:40 AM)megadrone Wrote:  Lambert School conference (NOT ALL SPORTS as Paterno wanted to do):
Boston College
Syracuse
Rutgers
Temple
Penn State (they don't go to the Big 10 in this timeline)
Pitt
West Virginia
perhaps Miami. Here's a problem -- with VT in the Metro, there isn't a great choice for school number 8 unless UMass or UConn upgrades to 1A and comes along from the Yankee Conference OR Villanova doesn't drop football and stays 1A. Maryland stays in the ACC. Miami is the last of the independents. Army and Navy aren't interested.

The Big East doesn't add football -- but this is the complication. BC, Pitt and Syracuse all are in the Big East, Penn State, Rutgers, Temple and WVU are all in the Atlantic 10. A merger between the Big East and the A10 would make the most sense but the Big East becomes the stronger basketball league (as in the current timeline) and they can't make it happen.

Very cool. If Miami and Penn State are in the Lambert Conference, VT isn't crucial. They already have eight schools.

I don't see why the Big East not adding football would compel the conference to consider a merger with the A-10, though.

(08-31-2017 10:11 AM)BePcr07 Wrote:  PAC sends outs 16-school proposal for Colorado, Oklahoma, Oklahoma St, TCU, Texas, and Texas Tech; unlike Texas A&M, TCU is on-board with whatever Texas says; Texas decides to go since they have the support of everyone invited

B1G sends out 16-school proposal for Kansas, Missouri, Nebraska, Rutgers, and Maryland; all 5 agree

SEC (boldly) sends out 16-school proposal for South Carolina, North Carolina, Duke, and Virginia; all 4 contemplate but agree to move

I would think the Pac wouldn't propose adding TCU. UT might suggest it, but there are other, more palatable options for the Pac, such as Utah or Houston.

The SEC is more likely to aim for VT over UVA, I would think.

(08-31-2017 03:36 PM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  Assume some kind of arrangement came together with the following eastern independents after the Big East turn-down of PSU:

Army
Navy
Penn State
Temple
Rutgers
Miami
Florida State
Virginia Tech
South Carolina
West Virginia

You now have Pitt, BC, and Syracuse out of a structure with big public flagships and other prominent programs. The intention of this group isn't necessarily stability; it's network leveraging. And now it spans from NYC metro to southern FL with NY-NJ, Philly, Baltimore, and Miami all covered. This, I think, forces a huge panic attack for the SEC, ACC, and Big Ten. Does it trickle westward and force SWC and Big XII to alter course?

Does it essentially kill Big East football before it ever starts?

I can't imagine an eastern league without Pitt, Cuse, and BC...but, since it never really happened to begin with, what about a different slant on it and the consequences of a new "big school" football conference?

Almost definitely would prevent Big East football. They don't have enough decent FB schools left to form a power conference. BC, Pitt, and Syracuse would likely want to be football affiliates with the new conference. I don't know about how much the other conferences would be impacted by this. The Big Ten wouldn't get PSU and the SEC wouldn't get SC, at least not right away, but those programs weren't key to the success of those conferences.

(08-31-2017 09:40 AM)megadrone Wrote:  

(08-31-2017 06:34 AM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  What if Notre Dame had joined the Big Ten along with Nebraska to give that league 12 teams: would they have pursued further expansion at all (e.g. Penn State, etc.)?

What if Texas A&M had joined the SEC along with Arkansas (instead of South Carolina)?

What if the ACC had grabbed up Miami, South Carolina and Virginia Tech as 10, 11 and 12?

Do any/all of those leagues stop at 12 in those scenarios?

Here's another wrinkle: the independents in the East aren't independent. The Metro sponsors football, keeping VT, FSU and South Carolina in the fray, and the Lambert schools form a football-only conference while that's still allowed.

If Florida State and South Carolina stay in the Metro, that's certainly an interesting scenario as it somewhat weakens the ACC. The Metro pushes to sponsor football and maybe adds Houston when the SWC breaks up (as C-USA does in our timeline).

That makes things very interesting. If Paterno's conference comes to fruition and the Metro stays together with FSU and USCe, the ACC maybe adds Miami, maybe not, and Virginia Tech stays with FSU and USCe in the Metro.

The Metro looks (more or less) like this:

FSU
VT
South Carolina
Houston
Louisville
Cincinnati
Memphis
Southern Miss
Tulane

and possibly ECU and its non-football schools (but they make it work)

Lambert School conference (NOT ALL SPORTS as Paterno wanted to do):
Boston College
Syracuse
Rutgers
Temple
Penn State (they don't go to the Big 10 in this timeline)
Pitt
West Virginia
perhaps Miami. Here's a problem -- with VT in the Metro, there isn't a great choice for school number 8 unless UMass or UConn upgrades to 1A and comes along from the Yankee Conference OR Villanova doesn't drop football and stays 1A. Maryland stays in the ACC. Miami is the last of the independents. Army and Navy aren't interested.

The Big East doesn't add football -- but this is the complication. BC, Pitt and Syracuse all are in the Big East, Penn State, Rutgers, Temple and WVU are all in the Atlantic 10. A merger between the Big East and the A10 would make the most sense but the Big East becomes the stronger basketball league (as in the current timeline) and they can't make it happen.

So the Lambert Conference breaks up because it doesn't get together until AFTER the Big East establishes itself as a major player in Men's Basketball. Would they be split among the Metro, ACC and Big 10 as in the current timeline? Is the Metro a power conference?

The Metro can take 2 schools out of the Lambert Conference, (WVU and Miami), the basketball-focused ACC takes 4 (Syracuse, BC, Pitt and Temple). Penn State is the biggest prize when the Lambert breaks up and still takes Rutgers with it to the Big 10. We assume that Rutgers and Temple don't have the horrid late 90s teams that they actually did and look valuable.

The question here is what happened to the Southwest Conference in this version of the timeline? We're assuming that TAMU and Houston are out. Do Arkansas, Texas and Texas Tech merge with the Big 8 and do they go to 11 or 12? Maybe with TCU? SMU, Rice and Baylor/TCU go to the WAC.

Houston was still a proud member of the SWC when Metro football would have formed so swap them out for ECU. Now if the Metro could have landed both Miami and Florida St that would be a huge coup.

How things could have looked in the mid to late 90's if the EAC actually happened.

EAC:
North- Rutgers, BC, Cuse, PSU, Temple, Pitt
South-FSU, Miami, USC, ECU, WVU, VT

Big Ten:
East- OSU, UM, MSU, ND, IU, Pur
West- Iowa, Wisc, Ill, NW, Minn, NU

Big XII:
North- ISU, KU, KSU, Mizz, CU, BYU
South- OSU, OU, UT, A&M, Tech, Houston

Pac-12:
North- UO, OSU, UW, WSU, Stan, Cal
South- USC, UCLA, ASU, UA, Utah, UNLV

SEC:
East- UF, UGA, Tenn, Vandy, UK, NC St
West- Bama, Aub, Ark, LSU, MSU, Ole Miss

ACC:
East- Maryland, UVA, UNC, Duke, GT, Clemson
West- Cincy, Memphis, Louisville, Wake, Tulane, TCU

WAC:
East-Wyoming, CSU, AF, UTEP, NM, NMSt
West- Hawaii, Fresno, SD St, San Jose, Nevada, Utah St

CUSA:
East- Army, Marshall, UAB, UCF, USF, Navy
West- Rice, Tulsa, SMU, Baylor, La Tech, USM

(08-31-2017 05:02 PM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  

(08-31-2017 09:40 AM)megadrone Wrote:  Lambert School conference (NOT ALL SPORTS as Paterno wanted to do):
Boston College
Syracuse
Rutgers
Temple
Penn State (they don't go to the Big 10 in this timeline)
Pitt
West Virginia
perhaps Miami. Here's a problem -- with VT in the Metro, there isn't a great choice for school number 8 unless UMass or UConn upgrades to 1A and comes along from the Yankee Conference OR Villanova doesn't drop football and stays 1A. Maryland stays in the ACC. Miami is the last of the independents. Army and Navy aren't interested.

The Big East doesn't add football -- but this is the complication. BC, Pitt and Syracuse all are in the Big East, Penn State, Rutgers, Temple and WVU are all in the Atlantic 10. A merger between the Big East and the A10 would make the most sense but the Big East becomes the stronger basketball league (as in the current timeline) and they can't make it happen.

Very cool. If Miami and Penn State are in the Lambert Conference, VT isn't crucial. They already have eight schools.

I don't see why the Big East not adding football would compel the conference to consider a merger with the A-10, though.

(08-31-2017 10:11 AM)BePcr07 Wrote:  PAC sends outs 16-school proposal for Colorado, Oklahoma, Oklahoma St, TCU, Texas, and Texas Tech; unlike Texas A&M, TCU is on-board with whatever Texas says; Texas decides to go since they have the support of everyone invited

B1G sends out 16-school proposal for Kansas, Missouri, Nebraska, Rutgers, and Maryland; all 5 agree

SEC (boldly) sends out 16-school proposal for South Carolina, North Carolina, Duke, and Virginia; all 4 contemplate but agree to move

I would think the Pac wouldn't propose adding TCU. UT might suggest it, but there are other, more palatable options for the Pac, such as Utah or Houston.

The SEC is more likely to aim for VT over UVA, I would think.

(08-31-2017 03:36 PM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  Assume some kind of arrangement came together with the following eastern independents after the Big East turn-down of PSU:

Army
Navy
Penn State
Temple
Rutgers
Miami
Florida State
Virginia Tech
South Carolina
West Virginia

You now have Pitt, BC, and Syracuse out of a structure with big public flagships and other prominent programs. The intention of this group isn't necessarily stability; it's network leveraging. And now it spans from NYC metro to southern FL with NY-NJ, Philly, Baltimore, and Miami all covered. This, I think, forces a huge panic attack for the SEC, ACC, and Big Ten. Does it trickle westward and force SWC and Big XII to alter course?

Does it essentially kill Big East football before it ever starts?

I can't imagine an eastern league without Pitt, Cuse, and BC...but, since it never really happened to begin with, what about a different slant on it and the consequences of a new "big school" football conference?

Almost definitely would prevent Big East football. They don't have enough decent FB schools left to form a power conference. BC, Pitt, and Syracuse would likely want to be football affiliates with the new conference. I don't know about how much the other conferences would be impacted by this. The Big Ten wouldn't get PSU and the SEC wouldn't get SC, at least not right away, but those programs weren't key to the success of those conferences.

On our current timeline, a problem arose because the Big East needed to negotiate for all of the media rights for all members -- which was a problem for 1/2 of the football schools. That's why the 1994 expansion happened, adding Rutgers and WVU as full members. I'm assuming something like that would have happened over the course of the last 20 years, necessitating the A10 and Big East to merge (since 7/8 of the football conference was split between those two all sports conferences). By this point in time the Big East is a much better conference than the A10, though the A10 still has some big programs in Rutgers, PSU, Temple and WVU (along with smaller programs like St. Bonaventure, St. Joe's, Duquense, URI and UMass). The merger would be a 20 member behemoth but the gap in basketball talent is too much to overcome. That would trigger some movement of the Lambert football schools elsewhere.

Suppose that a more forward-thinking Big 12 had been able to convince the NCAA to drop the 12-school minimum for a conference championship in late 2011, by which point the conference had settled on 10 schools. I imagine that one major consequence of this is that the non-power conferences wouldn't have been so keen on reaching 12. While the P5 would likely have proceeded with expansion as in our timeline, I would guess that 8 or 10 football schools would probably be the target for rest of the conferences. This means that the WAC could possibly have survived as a football conference, although only barely. A potential G6 alignment by 2017:

American: Cincinnati, Houston, Memphis, Navy (FB only), SMU, Temple, Tulane, UCF, UConn, USF

C-USA: Charlotte, ECU, FIU, Marshall, North Texas, Rice, Southern Miss, Tulsa, UAB, UTEP

MWC: Air Force, Boise, CSU, Fresno, Hawaii (FB only), Nevada, New Mexico, SDSU, UNLV, Wyoming

Sun Belt: Arkansas State, FAU, MTSU, South Alabama, Troy, ULL, ULM, WKU

WAC: Idaho, La Tech, NMSU, SJSU, Texas State, Utah State, UTSA, (someone else?)

The MAC is the same as in our timeline.

Basically, the old Big East/American declines to invite ECU and Tulsa. So those two stick with C-USA, who in turn isn't as inclined to overexpand and so only takes FIU and North Texas from the Sun Belt. (UAB drops and readds football as in our timeline.) Similarly, the MWC doesn't pick off SJSU or USU from the WAC. The Sun Belt restocks to the 8-school minimum by adding USA. This leaves the WAC with just 7 football schools after adding Texas State and UTSA, so perhaps they'd add an FCS team to make eight. The MAC's 12 full members had all been in the conference since before the turn of the century. UMass had already been set as of April 2011 to join as a football affiliate, but they part ways with the MAC in just a few years as in our timeline. ODU, App State, GA Southern, GSU, and CCU remain in the FCS without an FBS conference invite.

(09-01-2017 01:33 PM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  Suppose that a more forward-thinking Big 12 had been able to convince the NCAA to drop the 12-school minimum for a conference championship in late 2011, by which point the conference had settled on 10 schools. I imagine that one major consequence of this is that the non-power conferences wouldn't have been so keen on reaching 12. While the P5 would likely have proceeded with expansion as in our timeline, I would guess that 10 football schools would probably be the target for rest of the conferences. This means that the Big West could possibly have survived as a football conference, although only barely. A potential G6 alignment by 2017:

American: Cincinnati, Houston, Memphis, Navy (FB only), SMU, Temple, Tulane, UCF, UConn, USF

Big West: Idaho, NMSU, SJSU, Texas State, Utah State, UTSA

C-USA: Charlotte, ECU, FIU, Marshall, North Texas, Rice, Southern Miss, Tulsa, UAB, UTEP

MWC: Air Force, Boise, CSU, Fresno, Hawaii (FB only), Nevada, New Mexico, SDSU, UNLV, Wyoming

Sun Belt: Arkansas State, FAU, GSU, La Tech, MTSU, South Alabama, Troy, ULL, ULM, WKU

The MAC is the same as in our timeline.

Basically, the old Big East/American declines to add ECU and Tulsa, their last invites in our timeline. So those two stick with C-USA, who in turn isn't as inclined to overexpand and so only takes FIU and North Texas from the Sun Belt. (UAB drops and readds football as in our timeline.) Similarly, the MWC doesn't pick off SJSU or USU from the WAC. The Sun Belt restocks to 10 by adding USA and GSU, along with La Tech from the WAC. This leaves the WAC with the bare minimum of 6 football schools with the additions of Texas State and UTSA. The MAC's 12 full members had all been in the conference since before the turn of the century. UMass had already been set as of April 2011 to join as a football affiliate, but they part ways with the MAC in just a few years as in our timeline. ODU, App State, GA Southern, and CCU remain in the FCS without an FBS conference invite.

ECU was added before Tulane to the AAC.

(09-01-2017 01:44 PM)RutgersGuy Wrote:  

(09-01-2017 01:33 PM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  Suppose that a more forward-thinking Big 12 had been able to convince the NCAA to drop the 12-school minimum for a conference championship in late 2011, by which point the conference had settled on 10 schools. I imagine that one major consequence of this is that the non-power conferences wouldn't have been so keen on reaching 12. While the P5 would likely have proceeded with expansion as in our timeline, I would guess that 10 football schools would probably be the target for rest of the conferences. This means that the Big West could possibly have survived as a football conference, although only barely. A potential G6 alignment by 2017:

American: Cincinnati, Houston, Memphis, Navy (FB only), SMU, Temple, Tulane, UCF, UConn, USF

Big West: Idaho, NMSU, SJSU, Texas State, Utah State, UTSA

C-USA: Charlotte, ECU, FIU, Marshall, North Texas, Rice, Southern Miss, Tulsa, UAB, UTEP

MWC: Air Force, Boise, CSU, Fresno, Hawaii (FB only), Nevada, New Mexico, SDSU, UNLV, Wyoming

Sun Belt: Arkansas State, FAU, GSU, La Tech, MTSU, South Alabama, Troy, ULL, ULM, WKU

The MAC is the same as in our timeline.

Basically, the old Big East/American declines to add ECU and Tulsa, their last invites in our timeline. So those two stick with C-USA, who in turn isn't as inclined to overexpand and so only takes FIU and North Texas from the Sun Belt. (UAB drops and readds football as in our timeline.) Similarly, the MWC doesn't pick off SJSU or USU from the WAC. The Sun Belt restocks to 10 by adding USA and GSU, along with La Tech from the WAC. This leaves the WAC with the bare minimum of 6 football schools with the additions of Texas State and UTSA. The MAC's 12 full members had all been in the conference since before the turn of the century. UMass had already been set as of April 2011 to join as a football affiliate, but they part ways with the MAC in just a few years as in our timeline. ODU, App State, GA Southern, and CCU remain in the FCS without an FBS conference invite.

ECU was added before Tulane to the AAC.

According to Wiki, I have that on November 27, 2012, it was announced that Tulane would be added as a full member and ECU as a football-only affiliate. I figured that meant they wanted Tulane more than ECU, and so in a scenario where 10 schools is the goal, they'd opt for Tulane and shun ECU (as well as Tulsa, who was invited months later). I should probably fix my wording though.

(07-07-2017 06:29 PM)_C2_ Wrote:  The deal is that Texas and Texas A&M thought everyone in the SWC was deadweight, including Houston minus a few years here and there on the field of play. The original Big 8 deal was to bring in just those two but politics forced Tech and Baylor in. So C-USA or the WAC were the only realistic landing spots.

Houston definitely would have been in the fold a decade earlier but not after the early 90's, when everything fell off a cliff.

I remember talking with some Texas fans when Texas came to play Louisville here years ago while We were in CUSA and Houston was being added. Louisville fans were excited about Houston addition and all the Texas fans agreed it was a good move but only if You could get Houston fans to ever show up for games. Seemed back then there were tons of empty seats and no one traveled to away games. At least that has changed today and Houston is a thriving program. Same with Louisville compared to the 1970s

BE FB was it's own enity, both sides used spliting the conf as away to control each other
in '96 it was becoming obvious the split was inevitable, needed bigger footprint for TV & CCG was the way to go
at the time there enough rm in BE & A-10 to take on Louv, Memphis, Cin, East Car, UCF & USF
BB schools want to leave so be it, Conn & Hous in 2000.
this is where BEFB fumbled the ball