(06-26-2017 02:51 PM)DaSaintFan Wrote:  

(06-25-2017 09:43 AM)Machiavelli Wrote:  A 2 % national sales tax. Your health care is covered. Done. End of argument.

I think a lot of us have said we're in favor of a VAT or Nat'l Sales Tax, aka, a consumption tax, Mach...

But are you going to guarantee that every dime from that is doled out appropriately once it's collected?

Exactly. They'll see these numbers coming in and within a very short period of time it too will be dumped into the GF and doled out for every pet project under the sun. It will simply turn into another Ponzi scheme like SS.

(06-26-2017 02:51 PM)DaSaintFan Wrote:  

(06-25-2017 09:43 AM)Machiavelli Wrote:  A 2 % national sales tax. Your health care is covered. Done. End of argument.

I think a lot of us have said we're in favor of a VAT or Nat'l Sales Tax, aka, a consumption tax, Mach...

But are you going to guarantee that every dime from that is doled out appropriately once it's collected?

Well....you shouldn't be. At all. If you really think about it a VAT and/or a consumption tax is the absolute last thing you want. We're taxed enough already. Why pile on more taxes?

(06-26-2017 04:53 PM)DefCONNOne Wrote:  

(06-26-2017 02:51 PM)DaSaintFan Wrote:  

(06-25-2017 09:43 AM)Machiavelli Wrote:  A 2 % national sales tax. Your health care is covered. Done. End of argument.

I think a lot of us have said we're in favor of a VAT or Nat'l Sales Tax, aka, a consumption tax, Mach...

But are you going to guarantee that every dime from that is doled out appropriately once it's collected?

Well....you shouldn't be. At all. If you really think about it a VAT and/or a consumption tax is the absolute last thing you want. We're taxed enough already. Why pile on more taxes?

Exactly. These people who keep pushing for more of their money to be taken away from them are insane.

As many as 11,000 more people have died each year since Obamacare was implemented.

(06-26-2017 04:55 PM)Kaplony Wrote:  

(06-26-2017 04:53 PM)DefCONNOne Wrote:  

(06-26-2017 02:51 PM)DaSaintFan Wrote:  

(06-25-2017 09:43 AM)Machiavelli Wrote:  A 2 % national sales tax. Your health care is covered. Done. End of argument.

I think a lot of us have said we're in favor of a VAT or Nat'l Sales Tax, aka, a consumption tax, Mach...

But are you going to guarantee that every dime from that is doled out appropriately once it's collected?

Well....you shouldn't be. At all. If you really think about it a VAT and/or a consumption tax is the absolute last thing you want. We're taxed enough already. Why pile on more taxes?

Exactly. These people who keep pushing for more of their money to be taken away from them are insane.

Well, to be fair, and Owl#'s doesn't need me to defend him, in his scenario it's coupled with a corresponding reduction in the income taxes and business taxes.

I'd like to see some numbers if anything is out there (I'm sure there is) if we were to implement a small-ish VAT or consumption tax, maybe 2-4%(?), while dropping income tax to 12, 18 and 24% (Totally making this up) and business tax to a lower than world avg to spur investment and job creation 20%?, how would the two numbers compare? As in does that scenario generate more or less "income" to the Federal gubment?

If it's simply a wash, then whats the point? If it sucks a bunch more money out of the private sector, that strike me as counterproductive.

The appeal to me, to some extent, about NST or a VAT is that it captures a lot of the underground economy we all know exists. All those that pay nothing, and often live off the generosity of others.

I'll be interested in responses.

(06-26-2017 03:57 PM)JMUDunk Wrote:  

(06-26-2017 02:51 PM)DaSaintFan Wrote:  

(06-25-2017 09:43 AM)Machiavelli Wrote:  A 2 % national sales tax. Your health care is covered. Done. End of argument.

I think a lot of us have said we're in favor of a VAT or Nat'l Sales Tax, aka, a consumption tax, Mach...

But are you going to guarantee that every dime from that is doled out appropriately once it's collected?

Exactly. They'll see these numbers coming in and within a very short period of time it too will be dumped into the GF and doled out for every pet project under the sun. It will simply turn into another Ponzi scheme like SS.

There is no way to assure that. The difference is that YOU get to decide how YOU are taxed. NO more withholding. Think about a paradigm in which those in power can NO longer reach directly into your pocket each paycheck. It takes away the ability for them to borrow against the future fruits of your labor. It forces them to budget in an entirely different manner. It makes them seek economic growth FIRST.

(06-26-2017 04:55 PM)Kaplony Wrote:  

(06-26-2017 04:53 PM)DefCONNOne Wrote:  

(06-26-2017 02:51 PM)DaSaintFan Wrote:  

(06-25-2017 09:43 AM)Machiavelli Wrote:  A 2 % national sales tax. Your health care is covered. Done. End of argument.

I think a lot of us have said we're in favor of a VAT or Nat'l Sales Tax, aka, a consumption tax, Mach...

But are you going to guarantee that every dime from that is doled out appropriately once it's collected?

Well....you shouldn't be. At all. If you really think about it a VAT and/or a consumption tax is the absolute last thing you want. We're taxed enough already. Why pile on more taxes?

Exactly. These people who keep pushing for more of their money to be taken away from them are insane.

HR25(Fairtax) clearly states that the 16th amendment is abolished with its ratification. It would "replace" our current system..not add any additional tax. This is information easily found with a click of a mouse. I would be apposed to any additional taxes and would oppose any paradigm that did not abolish the 16th.

(06-26-2017 08:15 PM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  

(06-26-2017 04:55 PM)Kaplony Wrote:  

(06-26-2017 04:53 PM)DefCONNOne Wrote:  

(06-26-2017 02:51 PM)DaSaintFan Wrote:  

(06-25-2017 09:43 AM)Machiavelli Wrote:  A 2 % national sales tax. Your health care is covered. Done. End of argument.

I think a lot of us have said we're in favor of a VAT or Nat'l Sales Tax, aka, a consumption tax, Mach...

But are you going to guarantee that every dime from that is doled out appropriately once it's collected?

Well....you shouldn't be. At all. If you really think about it a VAT and/or a consumption tax is the absolute last thing you want. We're taxed enough already. Why pile on more taxes?

Exactly. These people who keep pushing for more of their money to be taken away from them are insane.

HR25(Fairtax) clearly states that the 16th amendment is abolished with its ratification. It would "replace" our current system..not add any additional tax. This is information easily found with a click of a mouse. I would be apposed to any additional taxes and would oppose any paradigm that did not abolish the 16th.

You may as well be asking for Bernie's magic unicorn to come plant the money tree if you think that any congress since the passages of the 16th Amendment would abolish their ability to create winners and losers.

(06-26-2017 08:08 PM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  

(06-26-2017 03:57 PM)JMUDunk Wrote:  

(06-26-2017 02:51 PM)DaSaintFan Wrote:  

(06-25-2017 09:43 AM)Machiavelli Wrote:  A 2 % national sales tax. Your health care is covered. Done. End of argument.

I think a lot of us have said we're in favor of a VAT or Nat'l Sales Tax, aka, a consumption tax, Mach...

But are you going to guarantee that every dime from that is doled out appropriately once it's collected?

Exactly. They'll see these numbers coming in and within a very short period of time it too will be dumped into the GF and doled out for every pet project under the sun. It will simply turn into another Ponzi scheme like SS.

There is no way to assure that. The difference is that YOU get to decide how YOU are taxed. NO more withholding. Think about a paradigm in which those in power can NO longer reach directly into your pocket each paycheck. It takes away the ability for them to borrow against the future fruits of your labor. It forces them to budget in an entirely different manner. It makes them seek economic growth FIRST.

which means they'll never approve of such a plan.

Sent from my SM-J700T using CSNbbs mobile app

(06-26-2017 08:08 PM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  

(06-26-2017 03:57 PM)JMUDunk Wrote:  

(06-26-2017 02:51 PM)DaSaintFan Wrote:  

(06-25-2017 09:43 AM)Machiavelli Wrote:  A 2 % national sales tax. Your health care is covered. Done. End of argument.

I think a lot of us have said we're in favor of a VAT or Nat'l Sales Tax, aka, a consumption tax, Mach...

But are you going to guarantee that every dime from that is doled out appropriately once it's collected?

Exactly. They'll see these numbers coming in and within a very short period of time it too will be dumped into the GF and doled out for every pet project under the sun. It will simply turn into another Ponzi scheme like SS.

There is no way to assure that. The difference is that YOU get to decide how YOU are taxed. NO more withholding. Think about a paradigm in which those in power can NO longer reach directly into your pocket each paycheck. It takes away the ability for them to borrow against the future fruits of your labor. It forces them to budget in an entirely different manner. It makes them seek economic growth FIRST.

No YOU don't. Everything you buy gets an additional 23% added on. Since I'm already paying a 7% sales tax (6% State and 1% County) that means I'll be paying an additional 30% for EVERYTHING I buy. 32% if I go out to eat at a restaurant in town due to the 2% "tourism" tax.

(06-26-2017 03:57 PM)JMUDunk Wrote:  

(06-26-2017 02:51 PM)DaSaintFan Wrote:  

(06-25-2017 09:43 AM)Machiavelli Wrote:  A 2 % national sales tax. Your health care is covered. Done. End of argument.

I think a lot of us have said we're in favor of a VAT or Nat'l Sales Tax, aka, a consumption tax, Mach...

But are you going to guarantee that every dime from that is doled out appropriately once it's collected?

Exactly. They'll see these numbers coming in and within a very short period of time it too will be dumped into the GF and doled out for every pet project under the sun. It will simply turn into another Ponzi scheme like SS.

VATs are too easy to generate vast sums of money without people seeing it. Sales taxes and income taxes are direct and painful. That makes them better choices than a VAT.

(06-26-2017 08:30 PM)Kaplony Wrote:  

(06-26-2017 08:08 PM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  

(06-26-2017 03:57 PM)JMUDunk Wrote:  

(06-26-2017 02:51 PM)DaSaintFan Wrote:  

(06-25-2017 09:43 AM)Machiavelli Wrote:  A 2 % national sales tax. Your health care is covered. Done. End of argument.

I think a lot of us have said we're in favor of a VAT or Nat'l Sales Tax, aka, a consumption tax, Mach...

But are you going to guarantee that every dime from that is doled out appropriately once it's collected?

Exactly. They'll see these numbers coming in and within a very short period of time it too will be dumped into the GF and doled out for every pet project under the sun. It will simply turn into another Ponzi scheme like SS.

There is no way to assure that. The difference is that YOU get to decide how YOU are taxed. NO more withholding. Think about a paradigm in which those in power can NO longer reach directly into your pocket each paycheck. It takes away the ability for them to borrow against the future fruits of your labor. It forces them to budget in an entirely different manner. It makes them seek economic growth FIRST.

No YOU don't. Everything you buy gets an additional 23% added on. Since I'm already paying a 7% sales tax (6% State and 1% County) that means I'll be paying an additional 30% for EVERYTHING I buy. 32% if I go out to eat at a restaurant in town due to the 2% "tourism" tax.

On the minus side...that kind of tax is going to create a marketplace for all kinds of under the table transactions and bartering to get around the tax.
On the plus side...I'd probably start eating at home more.

(06-26-2017 05:02 PM)LeFlâneur Wrote:  As many as 11,000 more people have died each year since Obamacare was implemented.

In addition...It has added unfounded financial burdens,mental anguish, stress and hardship to millions of individuals and family's. IMO if this type of thing was caused by a corporation?...There would be class actions lawsuits pending with millions of claimants. CNN would be all over this and Liberals everywhere would calling for the prosecution of the CEO that caused this debacle. We all know that cant happen when our government causes the pain and suffering...right?

(06-26-2017 08:51 PM)mptnstr@44 Wrote:  

(06-26-2017 08:30 PM)Kaplony Wrote:  

(06-26-2017 08:08 PM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  

(06-26-2017 03:57 PM)JMUDunk Wrote:  

(06-26-2017 02:51 PM)DaSaintFan Wrote:  I think a lot of us have said we're in favor of a VAT or Nat'l Sales Tax, aka, a consumption tax, Mach...

But are you going to guarantee that every dime from that is doled out appropriately once it's collected?

Exactly. They'll see these numbers coming in and within a very short period of time it too will be dumped into the GF and doled out for every pet project under the sun. It will simply turn into another Ponzi scheme like SS.

There is no way to assure that. The difference is that YOU get to decide how YOU are taxed. NO more withholding. Think about a paradigm in which those in power can NO longer reach directly into your pocket each paycheck. It takes away the ability for them to borrow against the future fruits of your labor. It forces them to budget in an entirely different manner. It makes them seek economic growth FIRST.

No YOU don't. Everything you buy gets an additional 23% added on. Since I'm already paying a 7% sales tax (6% State and 1% County) that means I'll be paying an additional 30% for EVERYTHING I buy. 32% if I go out to eat at a restaurant in town due to the 2% "tourism" tax.

On the minus side...that kind of tax is going to create a marketplace for all kinds of under the table transactions and bartering to get around the tax.
On the plus side...I'd probably start eating at home more.

Just what we need.....more lucrative markets for criminal organizations.

(06-26-2017 08:51 PM)mptnstr@44 Wrote:  

(06-26-2017 08:30 PM)Kaplony Wrote:  

(06-26-2017 08:08 PM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  

(06-26-2017 03:57 PM)JMUDunk Wrote:  

(06-26-2017 02:51 PM)DaSaintFan Wrote:  I think a lot of us have said we're in favor of a VAT or Nat'l Sales Tax, aka, a consumption tax, Mach...

But are you going to guarantee that every dime from that is doled out appropriately once it's collected?

Exactly. They'll see these numbers coming in and within a very short period of time it too will be dumped into the GF and doled out for every pet project under the sun. It will simply turn into another Ponzi scheme like SS.

There is no way to assure that. The difference is that YOU get to decide how YOU are taxed. NO more withholding. Think about a paradigm in which those in power can NO longer reach directly into your pocket each paycheck. It takes away the ability for them to borrow against the future fruits of your labor. It forces them to budget in an entirely different manner. It makes them seek economic growth FIRST.

No YOU don't. Everything you buy gets an additional 23% added on. Since I'm already paying a 7% sales tax (6% State and 1% County) that means I'll be paying an additional 30% for EVERYTHING I buy. 32% if I go out to eat at a restaurant in town due to the 2% "tourism" tax.

On the minus side...that kind of tax is going to create a marketplace for all kinds of under the table transactions and bartering to get around the tax.
On the plus side...I'd probably start eating at home more.

Sure..people would probably buy more used goods...So what? The IRS estimates close to 500 Billion are evaded annually with our current system. I submit that this actually rakes in a large portion of this. If you buy new goods or obtain services?..You pay. It even hauls in taxes from illegals, crime and visitors to the US. Some experts say we increase revenue just from the lost black market and crime profits. Additionally...It would end filing tax returns and corporate taxes. Think about how HOT our economy would be soon after this.

(06-26-2017 08:55 PM)Kaplony Wrote:  

(06-26-2017 08:51 PM)mptnstr@44 Wrote:  

(06-26-2017 08:30 PM)Kaplony Wrote:  

(06-26-2017 08:08 PM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  

(06-26-2017 03:57 PM)JMUDunk Wrote:  Exactly. They'll see these numbers coming in and within a very short period of time it too will be dumped into the GF and doled out for every pet project under the sun. It will simply turn into another Ponzi scheme like SS.

There is no way to assure that. The difference is that YOU get to decide how YOU are taxed. NO more withholding. Think about a paradigm in which those in power can NO longer reach directly into your pocket each paycheck. It takes away the ability for them to borrow against the future fruits of your labor. It forces them to budget in an entirely different manner. It makes them seek economic growth FIRST.

No YOU don't. Everything you buy gets an additional 23% added on. Since I'm already paying a 7% sales tax (6% State and 1% County) that means I'll be paying an additional 30% for EVERYTHING I buy. 32% if I go out to eat at a restaurant in town due to the 2% "tourism" tax.

On the minus side...that kind of tax is going to create a marketplace for all kinds of under the table transactions and bartering to get around the tax.
On the plus side...I'd probably start eating at home more.

Just what we need.....more lucrative markets for criminal organizations.

Just what we need....The end to corporate taxation that pushed many legitimate businesses and investments to leave our shores and a reemergence of a super strong US economy that dominates the globe. There are always going to be criminals looking to take advantage of something. We just deal with it.

(06-26-2017 09:01 PM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  

(06-26-2017 08:51 PM)mptnstr@44 Wrote:  

(06-26-2017 08:30 PM)Kaplony Wrote:  

(06-26-2017 08:08 PM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  

(06-26-2017 03:57 PM)JMUDunk Wrote:  Exactly. They'll see these numbers coming in and within a very short period of time it too will be dumped into the GF and doled out for every pet project under the sun. It will simply turn into another Ponzi scheme like SS.

There is no way to assure that. The difference is that YOU get to decide how YOU are taxed. NO more withholding. Think about a paradigm in which those in power can NO longer reach directly into your pocket each paycheck. It takes away the ability for them to borrow against the future fruits of your labor. It forces them to budget in an entirely different manner. It makes them seek economic growth FIRST.

No YOU don't. Everything you buy gets an additional 23% added on. Since I'm already paying a 7% sales tax (6% State and 1% County) that means I'll be paying an additional 30% for EVERYTHING I buy. 32% if I go out to eat at a restaurant in town due to the 2% "tourism" tax.

On the minus side...that kind of tax is going to create a marketplace for all kinds of under the table transactions and bartering to get around the tax.
On the plus side...I'd probably start eating at home more.

Sure..people would probably buy more used goods...So what? The IRS estimates close to 500 Billion are evaded annually with our current system. I submit that this actually rakes in a large portion of this. If you buy new goods or obtain services?..You pay. It even hauls in taxes from illegals, crime and visitors to the US. Some experts say we increase revenue just from the lost black market and crime profits. Additionally...It would end filing tax returns and corporate taxes. Think about how HOT our economy would be soon after this.

I don't know why you're so desperate to allow government into every aspect of your life, but passing and implementing a VAT will do exactly that. Now I'm sure your retort would be something like this..."But the government's already into every aspect of my life" and you wouldn't be wrong. But why let the government get even a pinky toe into your wallet and you having zero idea they've been there? Don't get me started on consumption taxes. Those, while not as bad as VAT's, are almost just as bad.

(06-26-2017 08:49 PM)bullet Wrote:  

(06-26-2017 03:57 PM)JMUDunk Wrote:  

(06-26-2017 02:51 PM)DaSaintFan Wrote:  

(06-25-2017 09:43 AM)Machiavelli Wrote:  A 2 % national sales tax. Your health care is covered. Done. End of argument.

I think a lot of us have said we're in favor of a VAT or Nat'l Sales Tax, aka, a consumption tax, Mach...

But are you going to guarantee that every dime from that is doled out appropriately once it's collected?

Exactly. They'll see these numbers coming in and within a very short period of time it too will be dumped into the GF and doled out for every pet project under the sun. It will simply turn into another Ponzi scheme like SS.

VATs are too easy to generate vast sums of money without people seeing it. Sales taxes and income taxes are direct and painful. That makes them better choices than a VAT.

HR25 would be transparent and IMO much less painful than filing IRS returns and paying fees to have them done. You buy new goods?...you pay. That is it. Everyone would receive a prebate monthly... based upon your income to cover the cost of the sales tax up to the poverty line..making the poor totally untaxed.

http://www.nationalreview.com/article/44...llion-good

Love this line-"Free the Obamacare 15 million!"

CBO estimates 15 million will no longer be coerced into buying insurance next year.

(06-26-2017 09:12 PM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  

(06-26-2017 08:49 PM)bullet Wrote:  

(06-26-2017 03:57 PM)JMUDunk Wrote:  

(06-26-2017 02:51 PM)DaSaintFan Wrote:  

(06-25-2017 09:43 AM)Machiavelli Wrote:  A 2 % national sales tax. Your health care is covered. Done. End of argument.

I think a lot of us have said we're in favor of a VAT or Nat'l Sales Tax, aka, a consumption tax, Mach...

But are you going to guarantee that every dime from that is doled out appropriately once it's collected?

Exactly. They'll see these numbers coming in and within a very short period of time it too will be dumped into the GF and doled out for every pet project under the sun. It will simply turn into another Ponzi scheme like SS.

VATs are too easy to generate vast sums of money without people seeing it. Sales taxes and income taxes are direct and painful. That makes them better choices than a VAT.

HR25 would be transparent and IMO much less painful than filing IRS returns and paying fees to have them done. You buy new goods?...you pay. That is it. Everyone would receive a prebate monthly... based upon your income to cover the cost of the sales tax up to the poverty line..making the poor totally untaxed.

HR25 is an additional tax. Why you believe the falsehood about the 16th amendment getting abolished is beyond me.