I know Liberty had a more sophisticated case but Madison seems ready.

(06-25-2017 01:19 PM)_C2_ Wrote:  I know Liberty had a more sophisticated case but Madison seems ready.

They were invited (reportedly) to the Sun Belt and turned them down. This was a couple years ago. Anyone have those details?

I knew that but now a precedent has been set for a waiver.

The question is: what's the appetite for FBS Independent football, among JMU's president, CFO, and board of directors?


They had an awesome team last year, and a QB who played lights out against NDSU in the Fargodome. If JMU repeats, or at least makes it back to the NC game (or even close ...) is the fanbase going to rip the place apart at the seams?

(06-25-2017 01:28 PM)_C2_ Wrote:  I knew that but now a precedent has been set for a waiver.

Yeah, but it would be harder for JMU to make the case that independence is their only way to FBS if they in fact turned down (formally or informally) an FBS invitation. Liberty was likely never going to get an invitation, so this was the path they took. JMU doesn't have that card to play.

In all likelihood, if they want to go FBS independent, they'll either have to force or be the beneficiary of a rule change that provides everyone with a non-conference path to FBS.

My opinion.

I don't believe the "must invite" rule is likely to survive anti-trust challenge. I think if you send your nicely worded letter to the NCAA requesting a waiver and stating that you understand that you will be held to strict compliance on sport sponsorship, aid award requirements, and the schedule requirements that you get your waiver.

Sun Belt sent inquiries to around 20 FCS schools to determine their interest in moving to FBS with the understanding that those who indicated interest would be considered for expansion. JMU said they weren't interested. Because JMU had just paid Carr for a study and that study had been made public and had found no real financial difference between joining MAC, CUSA and Sun Belt for JMU there was follow-up by at least one university president and the commissioner and they were told JMU is interested in FBS if the right conference calls and the Sun Belt ******* wasn't it.

My impression talking off the record with a couple ADs around the Sun Belt is that there is no way in hell JMU would ever be the league's 11th football member nor would be a school they reach out to as long as they have a voice. But I felt their comments left wiggle room that would permit JMU to be the 10th football if someone left and JMU expressed interest and if JMU were interested they could be the 12th if the league had an 11th they loved.

With Coastal Carolina's addition the SBC is building their footprint toward JMU's direction. Will it be enough to entice JMU next time around who knows?

JMU if they want to move up I believe they should be granted a waiver because they've demonstrated over a great number of years the ability to comfortably meet the attendance requirement.

The question though is with all of the schools that have moved up to FBS is has it impacted landscape enough in FCS to where its reduced the competition for James Madison? If the competition is reduced within FCS but increased in FBS it might make sense to stay and be the state's FCS power rather than become the 5th FBS school for Virginia.

FBS programs in nearby states

West Virginia 2
Maryland 2
Tennessee 4
North Carolina 7

To be the 5th in Virginia makes for a glut. Proportionally its the same as 7 in North Carolina.

JMU had issues with New Mexico State and Idaho being in the Sun Belt. Now that those two are on the way out, their interest might have increased - but it's still too little, too late.

(06-25-2017 02:05 PM)arkstfan Wrote:  My opinion.

I don't believe the "must invite" rule is likely to survive anti-trust challenge. I think if you send your nicely worded letter to the NCAA requesting a waiver and stating that you understand that you will be held to strict compliance on sport sponsorship, aid award requirements, and the schedule requirements that you get your waiver.

Sun Belt sent inquiries to around 20 FCS schools to determine their interest in moving to FBS with the understanding that those who indicated interest would be considered for expansion. JMU said they weren't interested. Because JMU had just paid Carr for a study and that study had been made public and had found no real financial difference between joining MAC, CUSA and Sun Belt for JMU there was follow-up by at least one university president and the commissioner and they were told JMU is interested in FBS if the right conference calls and the Sun Belt ******* wasn't it.

My impression talking off the record with a couple ADs around the Sun Belt is that there is no way in hell JMU would ever be the league's 11th football member nor would be a school they reach out to as long as they have a voice. But I felt their comments left wiggle room that would permit JMU to be the 10th football if someone left and JMU expressed interest and if JMU were interested they could be the 12th if the league had an 11th they loved.

I think that's the key, you have to satisfy the waiver's requirements. You can't just have 5k attendance and not have a full schedule. Heck, I'd go as far as not allowing more than one FCS game every two years after the transition period for a few years.

Make sure they're legit.

I think JMU may have burned bridges leading to the SBC and CUSA needs to shed teams not add, so that doors is closed.

Honestly, why would they go fb-only? MAC's right there...one would rather stay in CAA for the rest?

I think JMU would get a waiver but I don't think JMU wants a waiver. If there was such a thing as all things being equal, if a recruit was split between JMU and ODU/Liberty five years ago, chances are he would have picked JMU based on the program quality as compared to the other two in FCS. Now I imagine the recruit would pick the FBS school so I don't see how it helps JMU to stay FCS while the in-state "rivals" move up. They are still recruiting the same kids but now JMU is at a disadvantage being FCS compared to ODU and Liberty. Of course, FBS vs. FCS isn't the sole factor a recruit should weight, or even the biggest but it is a major one at least in my mind.

Could several teams move up on the east coast? There seems to be more willing members to come up. Could see a new East Coast Conference form, or more members to be added to the AAC if they are Independents.

East Coast Independents:
Liberty
UMass.
Army
James Madison
Delaware
Stony Brook
Youngstown State
Eastern Kentucky

Could throw in Jacksonville State, Kennesaw State, Chattanooga, Towson and some others.
Could see non-football schools moved out of the CAA to bring that brand name up to FBS. Several schools could head to other conferences like Villanova and William and Mary to Patriot, Maine, Richmond and some others to NEC or maybe have A-10 start sponsoring football.

CAA FBS:
UMass.
James Madison
Delaware
Towson
Eastern Kentucky
Youngstown State
Stony Brook
Albany
Jacksonville State
Chattanooga
East Tennessee State
Kennesaw State

Could be a good conference. If Dayton wants into a good conference for basketball? 4 good teams in in the CAA, and used as a stepping stone. If they do have some deep pockets? They could go and build themselves a FBS size stadium, used the CAA as a stepping stone to get into the AAC.

(06-25-2017 09:23 PM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  Honestly, why would they go fb-only? MAC's right there...one would rather stay in CAA for the rest?

The MAC doesn't like schools that just use their conference as a weigh station. You have to be fully in or out. There's a limited number of schools that have a chance to be in the MAC.

(06-25-2017 09:32 PM)GE and MTS Wrote:  I think JMU would get a waiver but I don't think JMU wants a waiver. If there was such a thing as all things being equal, if a recruit was split between JMU and ODU/Liberty five years ago, chances are he would have picked JMU based on the program quality as compared to the other two in FCS. Now I imagine the recruit would pick the FBS school so I don't see how it helps JMU to stay FCS while the in-state "rivals" move up. They are still recruiting the same kids but now JMU is at a disadvantage being FCS compared to ODU and Liberty. Of course, FBS vs. FCS isn't the sole factor a recruit should weight, or even the biggest but it is a major one at least in my mind.

What is wrong with giving up?

JMU doesn't have to go after G5 level recruits when it can get on the Northeastern prep football train like its counterparts in the CAA.

Think big fish in a little pond.

The current JMU admin does not want G5 FBS as it currently stands.

Debate all you want as to the reasoning, but it is pretty clear as to their stance. They believe in regional rivalries, reduced travel expenses, and like minded schools.

With revenues drying up in the G5 level, it is also clear that there will be shifting sands. Whether or not that shift involves JMU, no one can say.

(06-25-2017 01:32 PM)MplsBison Wrote:  The question is: what's the appetite for FBS Independent football, among JMU's president, CFO, and board of directors?


They had an awesome team last year, and a QB who played lights out against NDSU in the Fargodome. If JMU repeats, or at least makes it back to the NC game (or even close ...) is the fanbase going to rip the place apart at the seams?

You can add to that list the " Intercollegiate Athletics Review Commission" which is made up of Virginia state senators and congressmen "or their designees". This was part of the law that passed a few years back that limits the percentage of Virginia public schools athletic budgets made up by student fees and requires approval from this board for any school that wants to change divisions.

I don't know if the NCAA would approve independence for JMU but I'm nearly certain they won't seek it.

JMU seems to be waiting for Delaware, Stony Brook, Towson, Albany, Fordham, UNH, and Maine to announce FBS all at once. Then it can add Army, UMass, and Liberty to the mix. That may take a while, but JMU has shown patience.

(06-26-2017 09:02 AM)NoDak Wrote:  JMU seems to be waiting for Delaware, Stony Brook, Towson, Albany, Fordham, UNH, and Maine to announce FBS all at once. Then it can add Army, UMass, and Liberty to the mix. That may take a while, but JMU has shown patience.

Delaware and Stony Brook, sure. The rest will not be FBS.

(06-26-2017 09:56 AM)JMU2004 Wrote:  

(06-26-2017 09:02 AM)NoDak Wrote:  JMU seems to be waiting for Delaware, Stony Brook, Towson, Albany, Fordham, UNH, and Maine to announce FBS all at once. Then it can add Army, UMass, and Liberty to the mix. That may take a while, but JMU has shown patience.

Delaware and Stony Brook, sure. The rest will not be FBS.

Delaware might as well be Villanova in this discussion. If they haven't budged by now, it's not going to happen.

MAYBE MAC material...but, Delaware's athletic history has been with northeastern schools. MAC's not a good sell for that, even if institutionally, they jive with the likes of UMOH, Buffalo, and Ohio.