This topic has moved...Building Brand/Exposure

to better investment.

If you are going on dollars alone then it's a no brainer ...most of us spend under 2 million on basketball and 8+ million on football. Lot easier to make up that money in basketball. At least hard dollars. But I believe enrollment numbers usually go up more with FBS...winning football especially. I know Western was basically flat-lined in enrollment over 4 or 5 years till Western moved from FCS to FBS. Then the school has increases for 5 straight years. Other things might have went into it but those other things were probably in place before the move to FBS.

(06-22-2017 06:15 PM)WKUYG Wrote:  This topic has moved...Building Brand/Exposure

to better investment.

If you are going on dollars alone then it's a no brainer ...most of us spend under 2 million on basketball and 8+ million on football. Lot easier to make up that money in basketball. At least hard dollars. But I believe enrollment numbers usually go up more with FBS...winning football especially. I know Western was basically flat-lined in enrollment over 4 or 5 years till Western moved from FCS to FBS. Then the school has increases for 5 straight years. Other things might have went into it but those other things were probably in place before the move to FBS.

ROI is not only measured in dollars and cents. That is your misinterpretation.

(06-22-2017 06:19 PM)stodgdog Wrote:  

(06-22-2017 06:15 PM)WKUYG Wrote:  This topic has moved...Building Brand/Exposure

to better investment.

If you are going on dollars alone then it's a no brainer ...most of us spend under 2 million on basketball and 8+ million on football. Lot easier to make up that money in basketball. At least hard dollars. But I believe enrollment numbers usually go up more with FBS...winning football especially. I know Western was basically flat-lined in enrollment over 4 or 5 years till Western moved from FCS to FBS. Then the school has increases for 5 straight years. Other things might have went into it but those other things were probably in place before the move to FBS.

ROI is not only measured in dollars and cents. That is your misinterpretation.

Everything in college sports is measured in dollars and cents. Without the $$, there are no facilities or anything else related to a sports program. Looking at WKU in 2010, the average revenue generated by basketball was $1,965,315, while the average revenue generated by football was $5,768,244, or three times that of basketball. So again, football is the bread winner and keeps other sports going, giving further exposure to the university in those sports.

Speaking for UTSA, you would not believe the difference that having football has had on our campus. The difference in exposure for us between when we had just basketball and now in the 6 years when we've finally gotten a football program is absolutely night and day. And not only that, but it has rejuvenated our entire campus. When I went to school there in the late 80's, even when we had decent basketball teams back then, very few people on campus wore UTSA gear. The whole atmosphere on campus is different now, and football did that, far more effectively than our basketball program ever could in the nearly 40 years we've had that sport.

So exposure and money aside, for this G5 campus, football has also infused a sense of spirit within our students that was never there before. I really believe that part of the reason our facilities are lacking is because basketball and the other sports never generated the money for us that football can. Our university was established in 1969, and had to wait 42 years to see our emblem on a football helmet. We never really had a true identity until football arrived.

Only one year into our football program, we were offered entrance into the FBS ranks by the WAC, and the very next year after that, entrance into C-USA. Realignment and everything aside, that would never have happened if we didn't have football. The entire college universe revolves around football, from the money it generates for universities, and the exposure good football programs get from the media, to the conference affiliations themselves. Without football, your choice of conferences is very limited. With football, a whole world of conferences open their doors to you.

It's relative. You would have never heard of Davidson or FGCU without basketball. Period.

Football might can take you to the next level, but it sure didn't for Hawaii, Cincy, the Mac school where NC State's coach came from or any of the other G5 Bcs bowl schools other than Boise (or TCU).

(06-22-2017 08:04 PM)Tintin Wrote:  It's relative. You would have never heard of Davidson or FGCU without basketball. Period.

Football might can take you to the next level, but it sure didn't for Hawaii, Cincy, the Mac school where NC State's coach came from or any of the other G5 Bcs bowl schools other than Boise (or TCU).

You're wrong it did just that for Cincy & South Florida till their conference blew up. But both school were in the BCS for a few years. Their Football & basketball wasn't good to get a invite to the ACC. Louisville tried for many years to get in the AAC...did not happen till their football program took it to the next level. TCU is in the Big12 because of FB and winning 11 or more games 6 out of 7 seasons in the MWC.

Not one of those schools plays in a BCS then P5 conference on basketball

BTW not many FB fans can tell you who Davidson or FGCU are...unless they are also hardcore basketball fans. Sometimes we confuse us message board (hardcore) fans with every day fans. And if the BE did not fall apart Butler is probably playing in the A-10 at best and VCU still in the CAA.

(06-22-2017 05:00 PM)WKUApollo Wrote:  I don't disagree at all with you Volkmar. Football is a much more popular sport and followed by more folks. Even I, who grew up a basketball fan in a basketball state and loved the sport above all others for decades have become a bigger football fan than a basketball fan in the last few years, especially since WKU moved to FBS.

However, I took the OP's question to be about how to build a national brand for CUSA teams. That's a totally different issue. At the G5 level, we'll never be considered at the level of the FBS powers you mentioned in football but we can be part of the discussion in basketball with the powers you mentioned. That's how I took the question.

What year did WKU transition to FBS?

National relevancy in this or that, so what. What's wrong with just enjoying a crisp fall day out with friends watching your team play? We are second tier and we damn well better get used to it. I think our goal should be getting the best bowl games available. And of course that would take more competent conference leadership.

(06-22-2017 08:42 PM)stodgdog Wrote:  

(06-22-2017 05:00 PM)WKUApollo Wrote:  I don't disagree at all with you Volkmar. Football is a much more popular sport and followed by more folks. Even I, who grew up a basketball fan in a basketball state and loved the sport above all others for decades have become a bigger football fan than a basketball fan in the last few years, especially since WKU moved to FBS.

However, I took the OP's question to be about how to build a national brand for CUSA teams. That's a totally different issue. At the G5 level, we'll never be considered at the level of the FBS powers you mentioned in football but we can be part of the discussion in basketball with the powers you mentioned. That's how I took the question.

What year did WKU transition to FBS?

I believe our first full year as a FBS was 2009.

We were in transition from FCS to FBS in 2007 and 2008.

(06-22-2017 05:07 PM)WKUYG Wrote:  

(06-22-2017 04:26 PM)WKUApollo Wrote:  I disagree WKUYG. The Petrino hire was a lightning in a bottle/Jerry Springer-nation type event. Yes, we got lots of publicity for it. It's not lasting and in many ways, wasn't recognition of success by WKU but rather, a "last chance" for Petrino.

If a CUSA team makes consecutive runs to the Final 8 and Final Four and/or title game, the level of publicity/conversation/etc. would be similar to what VCU/Butler received. They received positive "national" recognition and were considered power-level competition. The repercussions lasted. Their ability to schedule power teams, their ability to get the benefit of the doubt on seeding, and their ability to be mention regularly in the media as more than "mid-major" took them to the national conversation. That can't happen in football.
.

That's the way you took it....

it still doesn't change the fact it put Western football on the map. I don't know anyone that actually likes the man. But his hiring put Western on the cover of more internet sights and seen by more people than anything Western did in basketball.

With that you have the last 3 years.

I know you choose to look at the glass half empty and I'm always..closer to being full when it comes to Western. But In my experience, real world, I know I've had more people coming up to me after that hire talking about Western than at any point in my life. I'm talking SEC fans, Big 10 fans, Big 12 fans, ACC fans on our travels.

I usually have a Western ball cap on no matter where I go or a Western flag flying at our condo on PC Beach. I also have WKU tags on both cars.

Every once in a while someone would see one of those and say...hey Topper fan or something like that. It changed after the BP hire. I don't recall going many places that someone did not notice the Western gear or tag and saying something to us about Western. The number of SEC fans that go to PC Beach would be...most of them. Again when they see the Western flag flying they come up and start talking 100x more often.

Your experience might be different but we travel at least 1 week out of every month and as I said above. It changed after the BP hire

But wouldn't the same thing happen if you hired - let's say - Bruce Pearl?

(06-22-2017 06:59 PM)Volkmar Wrote:  Everything in college sports is measured in dollars and cents. Without the $$, there are no facilities or anything else related to a sports program. Looking at WKU in 2010, the average revenue generated by basketball was $1,965,315, while the average revenue generated by football was $5,768,244, or three times that of basketball. So again, football is the bread winner and keeps other sports going, giving further exposure to the university in those sports.

Again though this is an example of a sliding scale that's not comparing apples to apples. You are making this comparison at time when wkcc basketball has sucked and it's football program has experienced unprecedented success.

If the hoops team makes a couple of Sweet 16 runs in the same time frame then I'm not sure these numbers look anything like this. Have to keep the comparisons on par for a valid discussion.

(06-22-2017 04:02 PM)ThreeifbyLightning Wrote:  And I believe we are on our way to being just that. Great basketball for the past five years. Only school in the league that hasn't had a losing season in the same period. Just need to finish that off with a conference title in December!

In MTSU case it doesnt seem to be either. Great basketball has only gotten you to number 9 in terms of overall value add to CUSA in the OFFICIAL rankings discussed in the other thread.

All jokes aside, I believe its basketball. We have seen what a good run can do for a school and its recognition, but the success has to be maintainted for a period of time.

(06-22-2017 08:19 PM)WKUYG Wrote:  

(06-22-2017 08:04 PM)Tintin Wrote:  It's relative. You would have never heard of Davidson or FGCU without basketball. Period.

Football might can take you to the next level, but it sure didn't for Hawaii, Cincy, the Mac school where NC State's coach came from or any of the other G5 Bcs bowl schools other than Boise (or TCU).

You're wrong it did just that for Cincy & South Florida till their conference blew up. But both school were in the BCS for a few years. Their Football & basketball wasn't good to get a invite to the ACC. Louisville tried for many years to get in the AAC...did not happen till their football program took it to the next level. TCU is in the Big12 because of FB and winning 11 or more games 6 out of 7 seasons in the MWC.

Not one of those schools plays in a BCS then P5 conference on basketball

BTW not many FB fans can tell you who Davidson or FGCU are...unless they are also hardcore basketball fans. Sometimes we confuse us message board (hardcore) fans with every day fans. And if the BE did not fall apart Butler is probably playing in the A-10 at best and VCU still in the CAA.

I disagree. Every office in America has an NCAA pool. The secretaries knew who Dunk City and Stephan Curry are.
The casual fan watches the Dance if only the first two days. Tens of millions of people play in ESPN, CBS and yahoo brackets contest, Warren Buffet gives away a BILLION dollars, and for a while the president revealed his bracket to a national audience.
Bars are full of people who have taken sick days, and uriologists say that the Wednesday before the dance, they do more vasectomies than any other day. If you want your schools name in front of the world: Dance

I don't think it's a stretch to say more people can tell you about Middle's win against Michigan State than Western's bowl win against Memphis.

I'm not saying basketball makes more money, but it's a whole lot easier to move the needle by Dancing, than Bowling.

(06-23-2017 07:14 AM)ThreeifbyLightning Wrote:  

(06-22-2017 05:07 PM)WKUYG Wrote:  

(06-22-2017 04:26 PM)WKUApollo Wrote:  I disagree WKUYG. The Petrino hire was a lightning in a bottle/Jerry Springer-nation type event. Yes, we got lots of publicity for it. It's not lasting and in many ways, wasn't recognition of success by WKU but rather, a "last chance" for Petrino.

If a CUSA team makes consecutive runs to the Final 8 and Final Four and/or title game, the level of publicity/conversation/etc. would be similar to what VCU/Butler received. They received positive "national" recognition and were considered power-level competition. The repercussions lasted. Their ability to schedule power teams, their ability to get the benefit of the doubt on seeding, and their ability to be mention regularly in the media as more than "mid-major" took them to the national conversation. That can't happen in football.
.

That's the way you took it....

it still doesn't change the fact it put Western football on the map. I don't know anyone that actually likes the man. But his hiring put Western on the cover of more internet sights and seen by more people than anything Western did in basketball.

With that you have the last 3 years.

I know you choose to look at the glass half empty and I'm always..closer to being full when it comes to Western. But In my experience, real world, I know I've had more people coming up to me after that hire talking about Western than at any point in my life. I'm talking SEC fans, Big 10 fans, Big 12 fans, ACC fans on our travels.

I usually have a Western ball cap on no matter where I go or a Western flag flying at our condo on PC Beach. I also have WKU tags on both cars.

Every once in a while someone would see one of those and say...hey Topper fan or something like that. It changed after the BP hire. I don't recall going many places that someone did not notice the Western gear or tag and saying something to us about Western. The number of SEC fans that go to PC Beach would be...most of them. Again when they see the Western flag flying they come up and start talking 100x more often.

Your experience might be different but we travel at least 1 week out of every month and as I said above. It changed after the BP hire

But wouldn't the same thing happen if you hired - let's say - Bruce Pearl?

No. Think about how many more FB fans there are than basketball. Not only the 100+k that show up at Bama and UT and the 70+k at other schools...

you can x that by 10,20, or 30 that watch those schools on TV. Basketball does not have anywhere close to the numbers.

7 years ago I would be taking the opposite point of view but not today.

Western is getting a lot of press for Stansbury bring in a top 8 recruiting class. But that is nothing compared to the BP hire. Winning helped also but I noticed the change with in weeks of the BP hire. I look at it this way...

Jerry Springer or not....when you get the type of coverage Western got it was well worth any negative coverage from that hire. How else would one of our schools get that much coverage? I can't think of one way other than beat Bama and LSU in back to back games and both being ranked in the top 5

(06-23-2017 08:27 AM)Tintin Wrote:  

(06-22-2017 08:19 PM)WKUYG Wrote:  

(06-22-2017 08:04 PM)Tintin Wrote:  It's relative. You would have never heard of Davidson or FGCU without basketball. Period.

Football might can take you to the next level, but it sure didn't for Hawaii, Cincy, the Mac school where NC State's coach came from or any of the other G5 Bcs bowl schools other than Boise (or TCU).

You're wrong it did just that for Cincy & South Florida till their conference blew up. But both school were in the BCS for a few years. Their Football & basketball wasn't good to get a invite to the ACC. Louisville tried for many years to get in the AAC...did not happen till their football program took it to the next level. TCU is in the Big12 because of FB and winning 11 or more games 6 out of 7 seasons in the MWC.

Not one of those schools plays in a BCS then P5 conference on basketball

BTW not many FB fans can tell you who Davidson or FGCU are...unless they are also hardcore basketball fans. Sometimes we confuse us message board (hardcore) fans with every day fans. And if the BE did not fall apart Butler is probably playing in the A-10 at best and VCU still in the CAA.

I disagree. Every office in America has an NCAA pool. The secretaries knew who Dunk City and Stephan Curry are.
The casual fan watches the Dance if only the first two days. Tens of millions of people play in ESPN, CBS and yahoo brackets contest, Warren Buffet gives away a BILLION dollars, and for a while the president revealed his bracket to a national audience.
Bars are full of people who have taken sick days, and uriologists say that the Wednesday before the dance, they do more vasectomies than any other day. If you want your schools name in front of the world: Dance

I don't think it's a stretch to say more people can tell you about Middle's win against Michigan State than Western's bowl win against Memphis.

I'm not saying basketball makes more money, but it's a whole lot easier to move the needle by Dancing, than Bowling.

You might be right but a week after they lose....

they are forgotten by most everyone in those office pools. Everyone loves Cinderella...till they turn into a pumpkin. Of course one game can be remembered more than another. But if you want to compare apples to apples....



Five years from now will there be more fans that remember that Middle win over Michigan State or App St beating Michigan 15 years ago? That is comparing apples to apples. I bet 25% of the fans on this board couldn't name who UAB beat in the NCAA Tourney 3 years ago without looking it up. UAB beat a 3 seed. Turn that around any let one us upset a top 10 FB team and 75% will remember that for years to come.

Here's why I think it's football:
When I graduated high school in 2011, out of the 150 or so in my graduating class, 8 of us went to WKU and about 80 went to UK (the rest elsewhere). Ever since WKU beat UK twice in a row in football, started winning a lot, going to bowls, winning championships, etc., there has consistently been about 50 graduates from each class going to WKU. I don't think it's a coincidence. At the same time, I've been seeing more and more WKU license plates or alumni stickers around Louisville. It might not be that there's necessarily more people going to WKU, but there's definitely more pride being shown for the school.
Also, random people (both in state and out of state) who notice I'm wearing a WKU hat or shirt will say "Man, they've got a good football team." or "They're a lot of fun to watch." The program has built a "brand" of playing good offense and scoring a lot of points, and anyone who follows college football knows that.

(06-22-2017 04:11 PM)WKUYG Wrote:  It's football and easy to prove.....

Western has more tradition in basketball than any school in this conference. UTEP has a national championship but over the long haul...

Western is hands down the winner in every basketball stats you name. Other than CURRENT.

Western had more front page news articles/exposure in one summer with the BP hire than in the last 17 years in basketball. That span covers

1. 7 NCAA bid
2. sweet 16
3. round of 32
4. 4 total NCAA wins
5. 12, 20 or more winning seasons, 5 24 or more winning seasons with a AVG of 21w over 17 years
6. 2 top 20
7. 1st team preseason AA

Overall history is up there with the best of the best in wins, winning%, conference titles.

Most people know Western for football over the last few years and never heard of our basketball program.

The overall number of FB fans compared to BB makes it more important.

Middle's run in basketball has been about the same as Western's in FB. Other than the first week of the tourney most people have forgotten it. Has nothing to do with it being Middle...espn has made it easy for fans to do just that.

20-25 years ago I think it's a lot closer

Unless you are consistently good in both it's hard to say.

I disagree. Its easy to have different impressions of our teams in the bubbles we live in. I can honestly say I didnt know WKU or MTSU had football programs until we joined CUSA. I knew quite a bit about WKUs basketball history and knew MTSU had a strong womens hoops program. We all get a lot more press in our regions. ODU gets great coverage in coastal Virginia, but football probably more so than hoops. But on a national scale I would think most people probably don't even know we have a football program, but know we traditionally have pretty good basketball.

(06-23-2017 09:13 AM)monarx Wrote:  

(06-22-2017 04:11 PM)WKUYG Wrote:  It's football and easy to prove.....

Western has more tradition in basketball than any school in this conference. UTEP has a national championship but over the long haul...

Western is hands down the winner in every basketball stats you name. Other than CURRENT.

Western had more front page news articles/exposure in one summer with the BP hire than in the last 17 years in basketball. That span covers

1. 7 NCAA bid
2. sweet 16
3. round of 32
4. 4 total NCAA wins
5. 12, 20 or more winning seasons, 5 24 or more winning seasons with a AVG of 21w over 17 years
6. 2 top 20
7. 1st team preseason AA

Overall history is up there with the best of the best in wins, winning%, conference titles.

Most people know Western for football over the last few years and never heard of our basketball program.

The overall number of FB fans compared to BB makes it more important.

Middle's run in basketball has been about the same as Western's in FB. Other than the first week of the tourney most people have forgotten it. Has nothing to do with it being Middle...espn has made it easy for fans to do just that.

20-25 years ago I think it's a lot closer

Unless you are consistently good in both it's hard to say.

I disagree. Its easy to have different impressions of our teams in the bubbles we live in. I can honestly say I didnt know WKU or MTSU had football programs until we joined CUSA. I knew quite a bit about WKUs basketball history and knew MTSU had a strong womens hoops program. We all get a lot more press in our regions. ODU gets great coverage in coastal Virginia, but football probably more so than hoops. But on a national scale I would think most people probably don't even know we have a football program, but know we traditionally have pretty good basketball.

Considering ODU is a basketball school and was once in the same conference with Western. I can see a basketball fan saying the same. I can say the same about ODU.

Do something that gets your name on every major and minor sports site for at least a week. Then watch how many more people know ODU plays football. Then win for 3 years...

(06-23-2017 07:20 AM)ThreeifbyLightning Wrote:  

(06-22-2017 06:59 PM)Volkmar Wrote:  Everything in college sports is measured in dollars and cents. Without the $$, there are no facilities or anything else related to a sports program. Looking at WKU in 2010, the average revenue generated by basketball was $1,965,315, while the average revenue generated by football was $5,768,244, or three times that of basketball. So again, football is the bread winner and keeps other sports going, giving further exposure to the university in those sports.

Again though this is an example of a sliding scale that's not comparing apples to apples. You are making this comparison at time when wkcc basketball has sucked and it's football program has experienced unprecedented success.

If the hoops team makes a couple of Sweet 16 runs in the same time frame then I'm not sure these numbers look anything like this. Have to keep the comparisons on par for a valid discussion.

Okay, then find me one year, just one year, where basketball generated more revenue at WKU than football did. I made the effort to scour WKU revenue figures for something tangible. Your turn.

Many of you are from schools where you've just always had both basketball and football. I'm coming at it from the perspective of a person who came from a school where we didn't have football for most of our history, and have seen first-hand the impact that football has had not only on the exposure we now get from the media compared to before, but also the amazing effect football has had on the whole culture of our school, which is its own kind of branding and exposure. Because as I said already, we had very few students wearing blue & orange before, and you'll find 'em all over campus now.

(06-23-2017 09:30 AM)Volkmar Wrote:  

(06-23-2017 07:20 AM)ThreeifbyLightning Wrote:  

(06-22-2017 06:59 PM)Volkmar Wrote:  Everything in college sports is measured in dollars and cents. Without the $$, there are no facilities or anything else related to a sports program. Looking at WKU in 2010, the average revenue generated by basketball was $1,965,315, while the average revenue generated by football was $5,768,244, or three times that of basketball. So again, football is the bread winner and keeps other sports going, giving further exposure to the university in those sports.

Again though this is an example of a sliding scale that's not comparing apples to apples. You are making this comparison at time when wkcc basketball has sucked and it's football program has experienced unprecedented success.

If the hoops team makes a couple of Sweet 16 runs in the same time frame then I'm not sure these numbers look anything like this. Have to keep the comparisons on par for a valid discussion.

Okay, then find me one year, just one year, where basketball generated more revenue at WKU than football did. I made the effort to scour WKU revenue figures for something tangible. Your turn.

This discussion isn't about what generates more revenue. It's about what builds a schools brand more effectively and efficiently. Pulling from what I put in the value thread...

For instance, following its 2010 tournament march, Butler commissioned a pair of firms to track TV, print, and online media publicity from March to December of that year. The tally topped out at more than $639 million, a figure that dropped to about $500 million after Butler's 2011 Final Four appearance. "We couldn't afford to buy the kind of exposure our team earned," Collins said.

Short of being one of the four playoff teams in football what is going to deliver that type of an impact? No doubt a final four appearance in football (i.e. being one of only four playoff teams) is likely to have more of an impact than the Final Four in basketball but there isn't any of us ever making it to the football playoff no matter how good our season is yet we can make that run in basketball.