(06-14-2017 12:26 PM)Wudizzle Wrote:  

(06-14-2017 12:17 PM)DownOnRohs Wrote:  

(06-14-2017 10:52 AM)Knights_of_UCF Wrote:  

(06-14-2017 09:33 AM)DownOnRohs Wrote:  

(06-13-2017 06:02 PM)SHOCK_value Wrote:  Via which empirical data exactly?

A quick look at MBB revenues/expenses shows Butler trailing WSU substantially ($4.8M versus $8.7M).

Total weeks spent in the AP poll top 25 or top 10? Nope and LOLNotEvenFreakingClose nope, respectively.

Head coach salary? Top ten at $3.5M versus also-ran $1.0M.

Home court attendance? WSU actually averages over-capacity at 10800, and Butler struggles to sell out at 8200.

I guess I'm all ears.

In a vacuum, meaning if WSU and Butler were the ONLY two jobs in America, then your data would support WSU as the better job.

BUT we don't live in a vacuum, and I'm pretty sure approximately 95% of prospective coaches would rather have the Butler job. Location, recruiting, conference, coach history. Butler is Butler. I think in a lot of people's eyes nationally, Gregg Marshall is Wichita State.

lol? where is this stat supported by any evidence aside from your gut feeling?

I guess the supporting stats would be:
1) Thad Matta, Todd Lickliter, Brad Stevens, Chris Holtman
2) The amount of basketball talent that Indiana high schools produce.

A lot of good coaches have been hired away from this school, therefore they are more of a destination school than the school that has kept their top end coach.

That's some fuzzy logic.

Neither is a destination school IMO. I understand that Shocker fans may disagree.

Congrats that WSU was lucky enough to hire a coach in Marshall who has been willing to stick around. If WSU was such an attractive job, they wouldn't have/be willing to pay out their ass to keep him around.

I just think that whole situation is an anomaly more than anything. Especially playing in the MVC for so long (and the AAC isn't THAT much better).

(06-14-2017 01:13 PM)DownOnRohs Wrote:  

(06-14-2017 12:26 PM)Wudizzle Wrote:  

(06-14-2017 12:17 PM)DownOnRohs Wrote:  

(06-14-2017 10:52 AM)Knights_of_UCF Wrote:  

(06-14-2017 09:33 AM)DownOnRohs Wrote:  In a vacuum, meaning if WSU and Butler were the ONLY two jobs in America, then your data would support WSU as the better job.

BUT we don't live in a vacuum, and I'm pretty sure approximately 95% of prospective coaches would rather have the Butler job. Location, recruiting, conference, coach history. Butler is Butler. I think in a lot of people's eyes nationally, Gregg Marshall is Wichita State.

lol? where is this stat supported by any evidence aside from your gut feeling?

I guess the supporting stats would be:
1) Thad Matta, Todd Lickliter, Brad Stevens, Chris Holtman
2) The amount of basketball talent that Indiana high schools produce.

A lot of good coaches have been hired away from this school, therefore they are more of a destination school than the school that has kept their top end coach.

That's some fuzzy logic.

Neither is a destination school IMO. I understand that Shocker fans may disagree.

Congrats that WSU was lucky enough to hire a coach in Marshall who has been willing to stick around. If WSU was such an attractive job, they wouldn't have/be willing to pay out their ass to keep him around.

I just think that whole situation is an anomaly more than anything. Especially playing in the MVC for so long (and the AAC isn't THAT much better).

By this logic, Duke is a terribly unattractive job. They have to pay like 9MM/yr to hang on to the coach they lucked in to.

You're doing a pretty solid job of demonstrating why WSU fans are a little defensive of the subject.

(06-14-2017 01:15 PM)Wudizzle Wrote:  

(06-14-2017 01:13 PM)DownOnRohs Wrote:  

(06-14-2017 12:26 PM)Wudizzle Wrote:  

(06-14-2017 12:17 PM)DownOnRohs Wrote:  

(06-14-2017 10:52 AM)Knights_of_UCF Wrote:  lol? where is this stat supported by any evidence aside from your gut feeling?

I guess the supporting stats would be:
1) Thad Matta, Todd Lickliter, Brad Stevens, Chris Holtman
2) The amount of basketball talent that Indiana high schools produce.

A lot of good coaches have been hired away from this school, therefore they are more of a destination school than the school that has kept their top end coach.

That's some fuzzy logic.

Neither is a destination school IMO. I understand that Shocker fans may disagree.

Congrats that WSU was lucky enough to hire a coach in Marshall who has been willing to stick around. If WSU was such an attractive job, they wouldn't have/be willing to pay out their ass to keep him around.

I just think that whole situation is an anomaly more than anything. Especially playing in the MVC for so long (and the AAC isn't THAT much better).

By this logic, Duke is a terribly unattractive job. They have to pay like 9MM/yr to hang on to the coach they lucked in to.

You're doing a pretty solid job of demonstrating why WSU fans are a little defensive of the subject.

So should we now compare Coach K's accomplishments to Marshall's?

(06-14-2017 01:23 PM)DownOnRohs Wrote:  

(06-14-2017 01:15 PM)Wudizzle Wrote:  

(06-14-2017 01:13 PM)DownOnRohs Wrote:  

(06-14-2017 12:26 PM)Wudizzle Wrote:  

(06-14-2017 12:17 PM)DownOnRohs Wrote:  I guess the supporting stats would be:
1) Thad Matta, Todd Lickliter, Brad Stevens, Chris Holtman
2) The amount of basketball talent that Indiana high schools produce.

A lot of good coaches have been hired away from this school, therefore they are more of a destination school than the school that has kept their top end coach.

That's some fuzzy logic.

Neither is a destination school IMO. I understand that Shocker fans may disagree.

Congrats that WSU was lucky enough to hire a coach in Marshall who has been willing to stick around. If WSU was such an attractive job, they wouldn't have/be willing to pay out their ass to keep him around.

I just think that whole situation is an anomaly more than anything. Especially playing in the MVC for so long (and the AAC isn't THAT much better).

By this logic, Duke is a terribly unattractive job. They have to pay like 9MM/yr to hang on to the coach they lucked in to.

You're doing a pretty solid job of demonstrating why WSU fans are a little defensive of the subject.

So should we now compare Coach K's accomplishments to Marshall's?

That has not been your argument. Your argument is based on great programs not needing to pay any money because they are so great all the good coaches naturally want to coach there. Further, you have argued that programs spending ****-pots of money are simply doing so because it is the only way they can keep the coach at their less-than-desirable program.

(06-14-2017 01:11 PM)Wudizzle Wrote:  

(06-14-2017 01:07 PM)DownOnRohs Wrote:  

(06-14-2017 12:28 PM)Knights_of_UCF Wrote:  

(06-14-2017 12:17 PM)DownOnRohs Wrote:  

(06-14-2017 10:52 AM)Knights_of_UCF Wrote:  lol? where is this stat supported by any evidence aside from your gut feeling?

I guess the supporting stats would be:
1) Thad Matta, Todd Lickliter, Brad Stevens, Chris Holtman
2) The amount of basketball talent that Indiana high schools produce.

1 - did any of those coaches choose butler over wsu?
2 - Kansas produces a ton of basketball talent as well as evidenced by one of the best programs in the history of college bball being in the state. WSU gets its fair share of talent as well -- based on its recent run.

So basically you should have just said "I have no evidence for this silly statistic I just made up based on my own personal feelings"

You're seriously gonna imply that the amount of talent the state of Kansas produces is even comparable to the state of Indiana? That alone kinda kills your credibility.

Are you gonna imply that it matters?

It's not 1960 any more.

Yes I am implying it matters. Much easier to recruit when there is a deep pool of HS talent within a 3 hr radius that you can hop in your car and go see any night of the week.

(06-14-2017 01:26 PM)Wudizzle Wrote:  

(06-14-2017 01:23 PM)DownOnRohs Wrote:  

(06-14-2017 01:15 PM)Wudizzle Wrote:  

(06-14-2017 01:13 PM)DownOnRohs Wrote:  

(06-14-2017 12:26 PM)Wudizzle Wrote:  A lot of good coaches have been hired away from this school, therefore they are more of a destination school than the school that has kept their top end coach.

That's some fuzzy logic.

Neither is a destination school IMO. I understand that Shocker fans may disagree.

Congrats that WSU was lucky enough to hire a coach in Marshall who has been willing to stick around. If WSU was such an attractive job, they wouldn't have/be willing to pay out their ass to keep him around.

I just think that whole situation is an anomaly more than anything. Especially playing in the MVC for so long (and the AAC isn't THAT much better).

By this logic, Duke is a terribly unattractive job. They have to pay like 9MM/yr to hang on to the coach they lucked in to.

You're doing a pretty solid job of demonstrating why WSU fans are a little defensive of the subject.

So should we now compare Coach K's accomplishments to Marshall's?

That has not been your argument. Your argument is based on great programs not needing to pay any money because they are so great all the good coaches naturally want to coach there. Further, you have argued that programs spending ****-pots of money are simply doing so because it is the only way they can keep the coach at their less-than-desirable program.

You tried to strip down my argument like it's some simple apples to apples comparison. Coach K isn't getting $9mil to stay at Duke. He's getting $9mil because he's hung multiple banners and put a zillion players in the league.

(06-14-2017 01:33 PM)DownOnRohs Wrote:  

(06-14-2017 01:26 PM)Wudizzle Wrote:  

(06-14-2017 01:23 PM)DownOnRohs Wrote:  

(06-14-2017 01:15 PM)Wudizzle Wrote:  

(06-14-2017 01:13 PM)DownOnRohs Wrote:  Neither is a destination school IMO. I understand that Shocker fans may disagree.

Congrats that WSU was lucky enough to hire a coach in Marshall who has been willing to stick around. If WSU was such an attractive job, they wouldn't have/be willing to pay out their ass to keep him around.

I just think that whole situation is an anomaly more than anything. Especially playing in the MVC for so long (and the AAC isn't THAT much better).

By this logic, Duke is a terribly unattractive job. They have to pay like 9MM/yr to hang on to the coach they lucked in to.

You're doing a pretty solid job of demonstrating why WSU fans are a little defensive of the subject.

So should we now compare Coach K's accomplishments to Marshall's?

That has not been your argument. Your argument is based on great programs not needing to pay any money because they are so great all the good coaches naturally want to coach there. Further, you have argued that programs spending ****-pots of money are simply doing so because it is the only way they can keep the coach at their less-than-desirable program.

You tried to strip down my argument like it's some simple apples to apples comparison. Coach K isn't getting $9mil to stay at Duke. He's getting $9mil because he's hung multiple banners and put a zillion players in the league.

There are no apples to apples comparisons. Yet you continue to make definitive rulings on comparisons.

It's a little strange how a few AAC fans are bending over backwards to defend a Big East school, while trashing a school that's supposed to try to enhance the conference's profile.

I'm not saying people should just blindly support AAC schools because they're in the AAC, but it's a tad strange.

(06-14-2017 01:13 PM)DownOnRohs Wrote:  

(06-14-2017 12:26 PM)Wudizzle Wrote:  

(06-14-2017 12:17 PM)DownOnRohs Wrote:  

(06-14-2017 10:52 AM)Knights_of_UCF Wrote:  

(06-14-2017 09:33 AM)DownOnRohs Wrote:  In a vacuum, meaning if WSU and Butler were the ONLY two jobs in America, then your data would support WSU as the better job.

BUT we don't live in a vacuum, and I'm pretty sure approximately 95% of prospective coaches would rather have the Butler job. Location, recruiting, conference, coach history. Butler is Butler. I think in a lot of people's eyes nationally, Gregg Marshall is Wichita State.

lol? where is this stat supported by any evidence aside from your gut feeling?

I guess the supporting stats would be:
1) Thad Matta, Todd Lickliter, Brad Stevens, Chris Holtman
2) The amount of basketball talent that Indiana high schools produce.

A lot of good coaches have been hired away from this school, therefore they are more of a destination school than the school that has kept their top end coach.

That's some fuzzy logic.

Neither is a destination school IMO. I understand that Shocker fans may disagree.

Congrats that WSU was lucky enough to hire a coach in Marshall who has been willing to stick around. If WSU was such an attractive job, they wouldn't have/be willing to pay out their ass to keep him around.

I just think that whole situation is an anomaly more than anything. Especially playing in the MVC for so long (and the AAC isn't THAT much better).

this is a horrible case of faulty logic. Alabama pays saban the most in the country, does that mean their job is so crappy because they have to pay him so much?

No, they pay him so much thereby making the job more attractive.

(06-14-2017 01:30 PM)DownOnRohs Wrote:  

(06-14-2017 01:11 PM)Wudizzle Wrote:  

(06-14-2017 01:07 PM)DownOnRohs Wrote:  

(06-14-2017 12:28 PM)Knights_of_UCF Wrote:  

(06-14-2017 12:17 PM)DownOnRohs Wrote:  I guess the supporting stats would be:
1) Thad Matta, Todd Lickliter, Brad Stevens, Chris Holtman
2) The amount of basketball talent that Indiana high schools produce.

1 - did any of those coaches choose butler over wsu?
2 - Kansas produces a ton of basketball talent as well as evidenced by one of the best programs in the history of college bball being in the state. WSU gets its fair share of talent as well -- based on its recent run.

So basically you should have just said "I have no evidence for this silly statistic I just made up based on my own personal feelings"

You're seriously gonna imply that the amount of talent the state of Kansas produces is even comparable to the state of Indiana? That alone kinda kills your credibility.

Are you gonna imply that it matters?

It's not 1960 any more.

Yes I am implying it matters. Much easier to recruit when there is a deep pool of HS talent within a 3 hr radius that you can hop in your car and go see any night of the week.

lol Kansas produced nearly 50 D1 hoops players last year. By your logic only schools in southern cal, chicago, or NYC would be any good. You are losing a lot of credibility, changing the argument, and flat out just looking like an ohio state homer here.

(06-14-2017 01:52 PM)Knights_of_UCF Wrote:  

(06-14-2017 01:13 PM)DownOnRohs Wrote:  

(06-14-2017 12:26 PM)Wudizzle Wrote:  

(06-14-2017 12:17 PM)DownOnRohs Wrote:  

(06-14-2017 10:52 AM)Knights_of_UCF Wrote:  lol? where is this stat supported by any evidence aside from your gut feeling?

I guess the supporting stats would be:
1) Thad Matta, Todd Lickliter, Brad Stevens, Chris Holtman
2) The amount of basketball talent that Indiana high schools produce.

A lot of good coaches have been hired away from this school, therefore they are more of a destination school than the school that has kept their top end coach.

That's some fuzzy logic.

Neither is a destination school IMO. I understand that Shocker fans may disagree.

Congrats that WSU was lucky enough to hire a coach in Marshall who has been willing to stick around. If WSU was such an attractive job, they wouldn't have/be willing to pay out their ass to keep him around.

I just think that whole situation is an anomaly more than anything. Especially playing in the MVC for so long (and the AAC isn't THAT much better).

this is a horrible case of faulty logic. Alabama pays saban the most in the country, does that mean their job is so crappy because they have to pay him so much?

No, they pay him so much thereby making the job more attractive.

*ding* *ding* ding*

Winnermotherfuckingchickendinner!


T


...

(06-14-2017 01:30 PM)DownOnRohs Wrote:  

(06-14-2017 01:11 PM)Wudizzle Wrote:  

(06-14-2017 01:07 PM)DownOnRohs Wrote:  

(06-14-2017 12:28 PM)Knights_of_UCF Wrote:  

(06-14-2017 12:17 PM)DownOnRohs Wrote:  I guess the supporting stats would be:
1) Thad Matta, Todd Lickliter, Brad Stevens, Chris Holtman
2) The amount of basketball talent that Indiana high schools produce.

1 - did any of those coaches choose butler over wsu?
2 - Kansas produces a ton of basketball talent as well as evidenced by one of the best programs in the history of college bball being in the state. WSU gets its fair share of talent as well -- based on its recent run.

So basically you should have just said "I have no evidence for this silly statistic I just made up based on my own personal feelings"

You're seriously gonna imply that the amount of talent the state of Kansas produces is even comparable to the state of Indiana? That alone kinda kills your credibility.

Are you gonna imply that it matters?

It's not 1960 any more.

Yes I am implying it matters. Much easier to recruit when there is a deep pool of HS talent within a 3 hr radius that you can hop in your car and go see any night of the week.

By that logic, we're just fine. We've had players from Wichita, Kansas City, and Oklahoma City playing key roles on our team for the past few years. We've got elite JuCo and prep talent all over our backyard too.

(06-14-2017 01:51 PM)WSUbballer Wrote:  It's a little strange how a few AAC fans are bending over backwards to defend a Big East school, while trashing a school that's supposed to try to enhance the conference's profile.

I'm not saying people should just blindly support AAC schools because they're in the AAC, but it's a tad strange.

its salty Memphis fans and ohio state/cinci fans primarily. Look through this thread and you'll see.

Memphis fans upset theres a new Cinderella at the ball (memphis was supposed to be this coming into the AAC) and Cinci fans upset anyone would think WSU is a better job than beloved ohio state and somehow trying to apply similar logic to a Butler job who is very debatable if it is a better job (I don't think it is and haven't seen any evidence to the contrary).

(06-14-2017 01:56 PM)fastbow Wrote:  

(06-14-2017 01:30 PM)DownOnRohs Wrote:  

(06-14-2017 01:11 PM)Wudizzle Wrote:  

(06-14-2017 01:07 PM)DownOnRohs Wrote:  

(06-14-2017 12:28 PM)Knights_of_UCF Wrote:  1 - did any of those coaches choose butler over wsu?
2 - Kansas produces a ton of basketball talent as well as evidenced by one of the best programs in the history of college bball being in the state. WSU gets its fair share of talent as well -- based on its recent run.

So basically you should have just said "I have no evidence for this silly statistic I just made up based on my own personal feelings"

You're seriously gonna imply that the amount of talent the state of Kansas produces is even comparable to the state of Indiana? That alone kinda kills your credibility.

Are you gonna imply that it matters?

It's not 1960 any more.

Yes I am implying it matters. Much easier to recruit when there is a deep pool of HS talent within a 3 hr radius that you can hop in your car and go see any night of the week.

By that logic, we're just fine. We've had players from Wichita, Kansas City, and Oklahoma City playing key roles on our team for the past few years. We've got elite JuCo and prep talent all over our backyard too.

I don't think the poster realized how much talent is in Kansas. Nearly 50 D1 HS players just last year, not including any Jucos or nearby talent in OK or neighboring states.

(06-14-2017 01:51 PM)WSUbballer Wrote:  It's a little strange how a few AAC fans are bending over backwards to defend a Big East school, while trashing a school that's supposed to try to enhance the conference's profile.

I'm not saying people should just blindly support AAC schools because they're in the AAC, but it's a tad strange.

Who is trashing WSU? Literally no one is trashing WSU.

Butler has been to 2 final fours in the last 10 years. That's more than 99% of the AAC can say.

I'm fairly unbiased towards to two schools. Of course the Shocker die-hards believe WSU is the more attractive job. It's just my opinion that if both the WSU and Butler jobs opened up tomorrow, Butler would be the more attractive vacancy. If Marshall leaves, the next guy's not getting $3.3MM/yr. Agree to disagree.

(06-14-2017 01:57 PM)Knights_of_UCF Wrote:  

(06-14-2017 01:51 PM)WSUbballer Wrote:  It's a little strange how a few AAC fans are bending over backwards to defend a Big East school, while trashing a school that's supposed to try to enhance the conference's profile.

I'm not saying people should just blindly support AAC schools because they're in the AAC, but it's a tad strange.

its salty Memphis fans and ohio state/cinci fans primarily. Look through this thread and you'll see.

Memphis fans upset theres a new Cinderella at the ball (memphis was supposed to be this coming into the AAC) and Cinci fans upset anyone would think WSU is a better job than beloved ohio state and somehow trying to apply similar logic to a Butler job who is very debatable if it is a better job (I don't think it is and haven't seen any evidence to the contrary).

**** ohio state. what are you even talking about?

(06-14-2017 01:58 PM)Knights_of_UCF Wrote:  

(06-14-2017 01:56 PM)fastbow Wrote:  

(06-14-2017 01:30 PM)DownOnRohs Wrote:  

(06-14-2017 01:11 PM)Wudizzle Wrote:  

(06-14-2017 01:07 PM)DownOnRohs Wrote:  You're seriously gonna imply that the amount of talent the state of Kansas produces is even comparable to the state of Indiana? That alone kinda kills your credibility.

Are you gonna imply that it matters?

It's not 1960 any more.

Yes I am implying it matters. Much easier to recruit when there is a deep pool of HS talent within a 3 hr radius that you can hop in your car and go see any night of the week.

By that logic, we're just fine. We've had players from Wichita, Kansas City, and Oklahoma City playing key roles on our team for the past few years. We've got elite JuCo and prep talent all over our backyard too.

I don't think the poster realized how much talent is in Kansas. Nearly 50 D1 HS players just last year, not including any Jucos or nearby talent in OK or neighboring states.

NBA players by state.
Indiana: 17
Kansas: 2

Random article from 2 years ago: http://www.ncaa.com/news/basketball-men/...p-25-teams

(06-14-2017 02:02 PM)DownOnRohs Wrote:  

(06-14-2017 01:51 PM)WSUbballer Wrote:  It's a little strange how a few AAC fans are bending over backwards to defend a Big East school, while trashing a school that's supposed to try to enhance the conference's profile.

I'm not saying people should just blindly support AAC schools because they're in the AAC, but it's a tad strange.

Who is trashing WSU? Literally no one is trashing WSU.

Butler has been to 2 final fours in the last 10 years. That's more than 99% of the AAC can say.

I'm fairly unbiased towards to two schools. Of course the Shocker die-hards believe WSU is the more attractive job. It's just my opinion that if both the WSU and Butler jobs opened up tomorrow, Butler would be the more attractive vacancy. If Marshall leaves, the next guy's not getting $3.3MM/yr. Agree to disagree.

why not? Koch brothers have famously donated millions to the school. Why do you assume they'd suddenly drop in pay?

WSU has a bigger budget, bigger fan base, bigger donation support, pays its coach better, and has a similar history of success.

What objectively can you say Butler would get a coach over WSU that can dispute the above items? You say its just your opinion now, but stated with certainty in prior posts that Butler is a much better job and that 95% of coaches would choose it.

(06-14-2017 02:08 PM)DownOnRohs Wrote:  

(06-14-2017 01:58 PM)Knights_of_UCF Wrote:  

(06-14-2017 01:56 PM)fastbow Wrote:  

(06-14-2017 01:30 PM)DownOnRohs Wrote:  

(06-14-2017 01:11 PM)Wudizzle Wrote:  Are you gonna imply that it matters?

It's not 1960 any more.

Yes I am implying it matters. Much easier to recruit when there is a deep pool of HS talent within a 3 hr radius that you can hop in your car and go see any night of the week.

By that logic, we're just fine. We've had players from Wichita, Kansas City, and Oklahoma City playing key roles on our team for the past few years. We've got elite JuCo and prep talent all over our backyard too.

I don't think the poster realized how much talent is in Kansas. Nearly 50 D1 HS players just last year, not including any Jucos or nearby talent in OK or neighboring states.

NBA players by state.
Indiana: 17
Kansas: 2

Random article from 2 years ago: http://www.ncaa.com/news/basketball-men/...p-25-teams

I didn't realize Butler was an nba team thats crazy thanks for providing.

(06-14-2017 01:57 PM)Knights_of_UCF Wrote:  

(06-14-2017 01:51 PM)WSUbballer Wrote:  It's a little strange how a few AAC fans are bending over backwards to defend a Big East school, while trashing a school that's supposed to try to enhance the conference's profile.

I'm not saying people should just blindly support AAC schools because they're in the AAC, but it's a tad strange.

its salty Memphis fans and ohio state/cinci fans primarily. Look through this thread and you'll see.

Memphis fans upset theres a new Cinderella at the ball (memphis was supposed to be this coming into the AAC) and Cinci fans upset anyone would think WSU is a better job than beloved ohio state and somehow trying to apply similar logic to a Butler job who is very debatable if it is a better job (I don't think it is and haven't seen any evidence to the contrary).

Exactly. It's very debatable! That's all I'm doing. Debating. Sheesh.