(05-26-2017 05:38 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  

(05-26-2017 04:02 PM)OsageJ Wrote:  Like a lot of what gay men or any men of any group what they do I don't care. If they want to go to games welcome. If not meh. Tom after seeing your angst maybe you should give it up. Like if I quit you would not be missed either.

Exactly, I get that you don't care. Or think that its fine to spend millions of dollars on one group's benefit only.

Youre right in one respect. Non-Christians and LGBT persons aren't missed by our Athletic Departments, as far as I can tell. Unless the millions we pay to prop up their department become imperiled by it.

If those kids started demanding an end to the student fees to subsidize games they don't go to.....Or if you need to raise the student fee and the students whose concerns and participation levels you dismiss say "2 grand a year for football - hell no", I'll bet you'd care.

Again, there are ways to make that required donation more palatable. I get that you don't see it as a problem, probably because it doesn't impact you or people like you.

They don't complain when that football program increases the value of their degree

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I have been a Sun Belt Fan because I felt they were unfairly targeted and not respected. I think Ga Southern and App have been great additions to FBS.
I remember when I said Coastal was the best team for the SBC to expand with and many on this board stated CCU had no business in the SBC. Oh, how that changed when they got picked. I think CCU will be a good FBS add as well.

Much of the reasons why I hope for Liberty's success as independent. I will say certain SB fans have made me want Liberty to be successful and would have me route for Liberty over certain Sun Belt teams. I think they can be another BYU.

Again, being an ACC fan and outsider, I don't get the SBC obession with Liberty. It does seem over the top with some posters. It really looks like SBC fans are worried that Liberty success will hurt the SBC. SBC made it clear they did not want Liberty, no reason to want them to fail because they are working hard to be a successful FBS independent. I hope they open the doors for other schools that may want to try the Indy route. The funniest thing, I think the anti-Liberty people have done more to increase Liberty support because if not for them, I probably would not have started following Liberty.

(05-26-2017 05:38 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  

(05-26-2017 04:02 PM)OsageJ Wrote:  Like a lot of what gay men or any men of any group what they do I don't care. If they want to go to games welcome. If not meh. Tom after seeing your angst maybe you should give it up. Like if I quit you would not be missed either.

Exactly, I get that you don't care. Or think that its fine to spend millions of dollars on one group's benefit only.

Youre right in one respect. Non-Christians and LGBT persons aren't missed by our Athletic Departments, as far as I can tell. Unless the millions we pay to prop up their department become imperiled by it.

If those kids started demanding an end to the student fees to subsidize games they don't go to.....Or if you need to raise the student fee and the students whose concerns and participation levels you dismiss say "2 grand a year for football - hell no", I'll bet you'd care.

Again, there are ways to make that required donation more palatable. I get that you don't see it as a problem, probably because it doesn't impact you or people like you.

Every time I hear someone complaining about athletic fees I ask what would happen to the fine arts programs if students who never attended demanded they stop having to pay those fees. The bottom line is fees aren't a la cart items. You don't get to pick and choose. Nobody holds a gun to anyone's head and makes them attend a certain school. You don't like the fees being charged at X university, pick another school. Tom, your constant railing against Liberty and Christians in general is very tiresome. We get it, you don't like either. Do everyone a favor and stick to discussing athletics and keep your personal agenda out of these discussions.

(05-26-2017 07:09 PM)AppManDG Wrote:  

(05-26-2017 05:38 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  

(05-26-2017 04:02 PM)OsageJ Wrote:  Like a lot of what gay men or any men of any group what they do I don't care. If they want to go to games welcome. If not meh. Tom after seeing your angst maybe you should give it up. Like if I quit you would not be missed either.

Exactly, I get that you don't care. Or think that its fine to spend millions of dollars on one group's benefit only.

Youre right in one respect. Non-Christians and LGBT persons aren't missed by our Athletic Departments, as far as I can tell. Unless the millions we pay to prop up their department become imperiled by it.

If those kids started demanding an end to the student fees to subsidize games they don't go to.....Or if you need to raise the student fee and the students whose concerns and participation levels you dismiss say "2 grand a year for football - hell no", I'll bet you'd care.

Again, there are ways to make that required donation more palatable. I get that you don't see it as a problem, probably because it doesn't impact you or people like you.

Every time I hear someone complaining about athletic fees I ask what would happen to the fine arts programs if students who never attended demanded they stop having to pay those fees. The bottom line is fees aren't a la cart items. You don't get to pick and choose. Nobody holds a gun to anyone's head and makes them attend a certain school. You don't like the fees being charged at X university, pick another school. Tom, your constant railing against Liberty and Christians in general is very tiresome. We get it, you don't like either. Do everyone a favor and stick to discussing athletics and keep your personal agenda out of these discussions.

I really enjoy the stadium rendering that shows a crowd...

(05-26-2017 06:02 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  

(05-26-2017 01:58 PM)panama Wrote:  

(05-26-2017 01:34 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  

(05-26-2017 01:26 PM)panama Wrote:  It's just a football game

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Its millions of dollars coming from thousands of students at each of our Universities.

There are ways to make that required investment more palatable. Playing Liberty is not one of them.

Look. I don't know what football did to you but it's just a game.

The majority of football players were not FCA members when I played in HS in the 80's and I have to believe that percentage has dropped precipitously in 30 years. If you don't believe it follow some of your school's players on Twitter for a month.

As for being forced to pay student fees for activities you do not participate in welcome to life. The athletic fee at most schools is one of the smaller ones in comparison to those fees that pay for the school paper and radio station and a whole host of things you may or may not engage in. It will get them ready for county and city taxes. You don't get to pick which ones you don't want to pay and you can always attend a school with no athletics.

As for somehow better engagement of gay and lesbians in football it's ultimately a football game. You buy a ticket, attend, buy a hot dog and beer, watch a game. If it's not your thing don't attend. In this age of hyper litigation certainly nobody is forcing anyone to do anything. I have been to away games that had a convocation beforehand. If that or the national anthem or some other part of the sport bother you, then dont attend or excuse yourself. But its kind of crazy to think that western society will change staring with a football game.

As for football coaches forcing some religious agenda down kids throats I think that is way overstated. If anything they are forcing winning to keep their jobs. Again, follow your kids on social media for a few weeks. You may have to wash your eyes out after. LOL.

As for playing Liberty it's a one off. It's not conference association. And even if it were it does not mean one is suddenly believing what they do. Having said that, their beliefs are in accord with a majority of Southerners if you believe the last election. So enjoy the season because the last place I wouild come to change the world is CSNbbs.



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LOL..the only thing that Southerners care about is football, I'm afraid.

Post like this will endear lots of people to your position. It's a prejudicial statement that dissolves most everything you have said to date.

If I couldn't support a program unless I agreed with every move they made and everything someone could infer they support I'd not have anything to believe in.

Should those that preach tolerance be intolerant of those that don't agree with them.

(05-26-2017 07:09 PM)AppManDG Wrote:  

(05-26-2017 05:38 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  

(05-26-2017 04:02 PM)OsageJ Wrote:  Like a lot of what gay men or any men of any group what they do I don't care. If they want to go to games welcome. If not meh. Tom after seeing your angst maybe you should give it up. Like if I quit you would not be missed either.

Exactly, I get that you don't care. Or think that its fine to spend millions of dollars on one group's benefit only.

Youre right in one respect. Non-Christians and LGBT persons aren't missed by our Athletic Departments, as far as I can tell. Unless the millions we pay to prop up their department become imperiled by it.

If those kids started demanding an end to the student fees to subsidize games they don't go to.....Or if you need to raise the student fee and the students whose concerns and participation levels you dismiss say "2 grand a year for football - hell no", I'll bet you'd care.

Again, there are ways to make that required donation more palatable. I get that you don't see it as a problem, probably because it doesn't impact you or people like you.

Every time I hear someone complaining about athletic fees I ask what would happen to the fine arts programs if students who never attended demanded they stop having to pay those fees. The bottom line is fees aren't a la cart items. You don't get to pick and choose. Nobody holds a gun to anyone's head and makes them attend a certain school. You don't like the fees being charged at X university, pick another school. Tom, your constant railing against Liberty and Christians in general is very tiresome. We get it, you don't like either. Do everyone a favor and stick to discussing athletics and keep your personal agenda out of these discussions.

Does the fine arts program pay people 500,000 a year? The students in the academic programs pay for their education AND for the FBS program. None of our FBS programs pay anything to any academic programs. Maybe at 10 schools, they do, but none of those are Sun Belt institutions.

And lets not pretend that the funding out of the non-academic related fees is doled out equitably to groups open to all. The campus radio station gets 5 bucks, the Cricket Club 5 bucks....and the FBS subsidy fund....1000 bucks.

I get it, you think you're entitled to compel students to pay for a private club as a condition of attending their public university. And that anyone who questions that mandatory subsidy or the fact that the beneficiaries of that subsidy aren't doing squat to even pretend to make that mandatory investment relevant to them is to be mocked.

You know, there are ways to make that investment more palatable.

(05-26-2017 07:09 PM)AppManDG Wrote:  

(05-26-2017 05:38 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  

(05-26-2017 04:02 PM)OsageJ Wrote:  Like a lot of what gay men or any men of any group what they do I don't care. If they want to go to games welcome. If not meh. Tom after seeing your angst maybe you should give it up. Like if I quit you would not be missed either.

Exactly, I get that you don't care. Or think that its fine to spend millions of dollars on one group's benefit only.

Youre right in one respect. Non-Christians and LGBT persons aren't missed by our Athletic Departments, as far as I can tell. Unless the millions we pay to prop up their department become imperiled by it.

If those kids started demanding an end to the student fees to subsidize games they don't go to.....Or if you need to raise the student fee and the students whose concerns and participation levels you dismiss say "2 grand a year for football - hell no", I'll bet you'd care.

Again, there are ways to make that required donation more palatable. I get that you don't see it as a problem, probably because it doesn't impact you or people like you.

Every time I hear someone complaining about athletic fees I ask what would happen to the fine arts programs if students who never attended demanded they stop having to pay those fees. The bottom line is fees aren't a la cart items. You don't get to pick and choose. Nobody holds a gun to anyone's head and makes them attend a certain school. You don't like the fees being charged at X university, pick another school. Tom, your constant railing against Liberty and Christians in general is very tiresome. We get it, you don't like either. Do everyone a favor and stick to discussing athletics and keep your personal agenda out of these discussions.

Thank you!

(05-26-2017 11:16 PM)Saint3333 Wrote:  If I couldn't support a program unless I agreed with every move they made and everything someone could infer they support I'd not have anything to believe in.

Should those that preach tolerance be intolerant of those that don't agree with them.

I think all benefits should be open to all.

For many students at our schools, its not that our FBS programs are doing one or two things they disagree with....but rather they're completely irrelevant to vast communities on our campus...And it shows on game day. Some of our schools average around 1000 students or less at our home games.

It doesn't have to be that way. But it will continue to be if our Athletic Departments continue to ignore those communities. The people not attending games...aren't on here.

(05-26-2017 11:44 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  

(05-26-2017 11:16 PM)Saint3333 Wrote:  If I couldn't support a program unless I agreed with every move they made and everything someone could infer they support I'd not have anything to believe in.

Should those that preach tolerance be intolerant of those that don't agree with them.

I think all benefits should be open to all.

For many students at our schools, its not that our FBS programs are doing one or two things they disagree with....but rather they're completely irrelevant to vast communities on our campus...And it shows on game day. Some of our schools average around 1000 students or less at our home games.

It doesn't have to be that way. But it will continue to be if our Athletic Departments continue to ignore those communities. The people not attending games...aren't on here.

Student attendance eh?

We are going to need a bigger whiteboard.

The SEC can't even solve that one

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(05-26-2017 11:41 PM)CheckYosef94 Wrote:  

(05-26-2017 07:09 PM)AppManDG Wrote:  

(05-26-2017 05:38 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  

(05-26-2017 04:02 PM)OsageJ Wrote:  Like a lot of what gay men or any men of any group what they do I don't care. If they want to go to games welcome. If not meh. Tom after seeing your angst maybe you should give it up. Like if I quit you would not be missed either.

Exactly, I get that you don't care. Or think that its fine to spend millions of dollars on one group's benefit only.

Youre right in one respect. Non-Christians and LGBT persons aren't missed by our Athletic Departments, as far as I can tell. Unless the millions we pay to prop up their department become imperiled by it.

If those kids started demanding an end to the student fees to subsidize games they don't go to.....Or if you need to raise the student fee and the students whose concerns and participation levels you dismiss say "2 grand a year for football - hell no", I'll bet you'd care.

Again, there are ways to make that required donation more palatable. I get that you don't see it as a problem, probably because it doesn't impact you or people like you.

Every time I hear someone complaining about athletic fees I ask what would happen to the fine arts programs if students who never attended demanded they stop having to pay those fees. The bottom line is fees aren't a la cart items. You don't get to pick and choose. Nobody holds a gun to anyone's head and makes them attend a certain school. You don't like the fees being charged at X university, pick another school. Tom, your constant railing against Liberty and Christians in general is very tiresome. We get it, you don't like either. Do everyone a favor and stick to discussing athletics and keep your personal agenda out of these discussions.

Thank you!

Am I railing against evangelicals participating in athletics? No. I'm just asking that efforts be made so that they're not the only ones benefiting from FBS athletics.

And yes, I think a school that says "No Jews, or no Gays" in employment is appalling and not worthy of association.

(05-26-2017 11:47 PM)panama Wrote:  

(05-26-2017 11:44 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  

(05-26-2017 11:16 PM)Saint3333 Wrote:  If I couldn't support a program unless I agreed with every move they made and everything someone could infer they support I'd not have anything to believe in.

Should those that preach tolerance be intolerant of those that don't agree with them.

I think all benefits should be open to all.

For many students at our schools, its not that our FBS programs are doing one or two things they disagree with....but rather they're completely irrelevant to vast communities on our campus...And it shows on game day. Some of our schools average around 1000 students or less at our home games.

It doesn't have to be that way. But it will continue to be if our Athletic Departments continue to ignore those communities. The people not attending games...aren't on here.

Student attendance eh?

We are going to need a bigger whiteboard.

The SEC can't even solve that one

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Actually, I think some of that is related to the same problem. The SEC is only marketing to the same communities there too.

Basically, all of these programs are getting lazy. Basically, the schools just go to the Greeks to fill student seats. Nothing wrong with the Greeks, but they're not getting the job done.

Guys, you can't just keep raising the fees and ignore the low level (and declining0 of interest among the students paying those fees for our athletic programs. Eventually its going to burn one of our programs.

Our schools don't have much of a margin. That's why some of our teams have stupid big student subsidy percentages. Might want to try to keep them happy and try to engage them more effectively.

If something happens and you need them...it might look like Idaho, where they came for the program......and few really gave a damn.

The UAB situation, where the student body did rally to save their program ....had more to do it than just athletics. The UAT board was meddling in academic programs too and there was the issue of local institutional control. That MIGHT have had something to do with the tenor and strength of the response. If an attack on one of our programs comes without other issues....the response might be different. And lets face facts...if they come for one of our programs, we're going to be relying on the students to rally for our programs' defense. If they aren't showing up at games...its a potential problem. Taxpayer funding of our institutions (not just football) will probably decrease over the next couple of years. Some of our schools fund 70% of FBS football from student fees. And its going to probably get a LOT more expensive to keep our programs.

Lets work on that. Instead of just throwing up our hands and waiting for a crisis. Or ignoring vast parts of our communities because we just can't be bothered (at best). Because it might be too late then. And it would sure be nicer on game day too.

(05-26-2017 11:51 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  

(05-26-2017 11:41 PM)CheckYosef94 Wrote:  

(05-26-2017 07:09 PM)AppManDG Wrote:  

(05-26-2017 05:38 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  

(05-26-2017 04:02 PM)OsageJ Wrote:  Like a lot of what gay men or any men of any group what they do I don't care. If they want to go to games welcome. If not meh. Tom after seeing your angst maybe you should give it up. Like if I quit you would not be missed either.

Exactly, I get that you don't care. Or think that its fine to spend millions of dollars on one group's benefit only.

Youre right in one respect. Non-Christians and LGBT persons aren't missed by our Athletic Departments, as far as I can tell. Unless the millions we pay to prop up their department become imperiled by it.

If those kids started demanding an end to the student fees to subsidize games they don't go to.....Or if you need to raise the student fee and the students whose concerns and participation levels you dismiss say "2 grand a year for football - hell no", I'll bet you'd care.

Again, there are ways to make that required donation more palatable. I get that you don't see it as a problem, probably because it doesn't impact you or people like you.

Every time I hear someone complaining about athletic fees I ask what would happen to the fine arts programs if students who never attended demanded they stop having to pay those fees. The bottom line is fees aren't a la cart items. You don't get to pick and choose. Nobody holds a gun to anyone's head and makes them attend a certain school. You don't like the fees being charged at X university, pick another school. Tom, your constant railing against Liberty and Christians in general is very tiresome. We get it, you don't like either. Do everyone a favor and stick to discussing athletics and keep your personal agenda out of these discussions.

Thank you!

Am I railing against evangelicals participating in athletics? No. I'm just asking that efforts be made so that they're not the only ones benefiting fo rom FBS athletics.

And yes, I think a school that says "No Jews, or no Gays" in employment is appalling and not worthy of association.

Have you ever heard or seen "no jews, or no gays" actually associated with Liberty or their teachings? You might start with the understanding that the very person at the center of their worship was a Jew. Quit repeating some dumb ass, you will be better served for it.

(05-26-2017 07:09 PM)AppManDG Wrote:  

(05-26-2017 05:38 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  

(05-26-2017 04:02 PM)OsageJ Wrote:  Like a lot of what gay men or any men of any group what they do I don't care. If they want to go to games welcome. If not meh. Tom after seeing your angst maybe you should give it up. Like if I quit you would not be missed either.

Exactly, I get that you don't care. Or think that its fine to spend millions of dollars on one group's benefit only.

Youre right in one respect. Non-Christians and LGBT persons aren't missed by our Athletic Departments, as far as I can tell. Unless the millions we pay to prop up their department become imperiled by it.

If those kids started demanding an end to the student fees to subsidize games they don't go to.....Or if you need to raise the student fee and the students whose concerns and participation levels you dismiss say "2 grand a year for football - hell no", I'll bet you'd care.

Again, there are ways to make that required donation more palatable. I get that you don't see it as a problem, probably because it doesn't impact you or people like you.

Every time I hear someone complaining about athletic fees I ask what would happen to the fine arts programs if students who never attended demanded they stop having to pay those fees. The bottom line is fees aren't a la cart items. You don't get to pick and choose. Nobody holds a gun to anyone's head and makes them attend a certain school. You don't like the fees being charged at X university, pick another school. Tom, your constant railing against Liberty and Christians in general is very tiresome. We get it, you don't like either. Do everyone a favor and stick to discussing athletics and keep your personal agenda out of these discussions.

Great posts. Although the likelihood appears impossible as one can expect a multitude of pseudo-intellectual banter to follow as a responses. Oh well.

Once I thought Lazy was a FB fan. These 15+ pages of gay rights pleading causes me to think his interest may be to use FB as a means to change and bring awareness to gay rights. As Panama said, it's a football game and this is a sports forum. Discourse in any other direction is a personal crusade, as this thread clearly shows.

Like it or not, this is a worthwhile conversation. I don't know that this thread has any sign of either side seeking to understand the other, but there are things Tom is bringing up that shouldn't just be dismissed, even if I do think the argument that FBS football forces underrepresented students to subsidize an oppressive system (I know that's oversimplifying) is a bit overblown. My .02...

1) Can we quit dismissing these things with the "It's just football" argument? I know that this is done in part to keep the peace on contentious issues, and I know that escapism is part of what sports are about. We all know that isn't the way it works out, though.
When someone shows reverence for a service academy because of what they represent, it'd be idiotic to say, "Whoa, whoa, this is just about football, let's leave protecting the American people out of this." Our teams represent our schools, and it's reasonable to have discussions of the implications of this.

2) Can we at least quit dismissing the idea that Tom might be onto something with regard to the current acceptance of LGBT issues within the context of college football? I don't know that there's a solution in the way athletics are marketed (or whatever), but saying "I don't care what anyone does in their bedroom" is a long way from addressing the fact that male sports are often homophobic as hell. It's okay to acknowledge that without feeling like you're bowing to some liberal conspiracy.

Not sure why I felt the need to say anything here. Guess I got tired of seeing no one willing to acknowledge the credibility of anyone else's arguments...

(05-27-2017 10:37 AM)Pounce FTW Wrote:  Like it or not, this is a worthwhile conversation. I don't know that this thread has any sign of either side seeking to understand the other, but there are things Tom is bringing up that shouldn't just be dismissed, even if I do think the argument that FBS football forces underrepresented students to subsidize an oppressive system (I know that's oversimplifying) is a bit overblown. My .02...

1) Can we quit dismissing these things with the "It's just football" argument? I know that this is done in part to keep the peace on contentious issues, and I know that escapism is part of what sports are about. We all know that isn't the way it works out, though.
When someone shows reverence for a service academy because of what they represent, it'd be idiotic to say, "Whoa, whoa, this is just about football, let's leave protecting the American people out of this." Our teams represent our schools, and it's reasonable to have discussions of the implications of this.

2) Can we at least quit dismissing the idea that Tom might be onto something with regard to the current acceptance of LGBT issues within the context of college football? I don't know that there's a solution in the way athletics are marketed (or whatever), but saying "I don't care what anyone does in their bedroom" is a long way from addressing the fact that male sports are often homophobic as hell. It's okay to acknowledge that without feeling like you're bowing to some liberal conspiracy.

Not sure why I felt the need to say anything here. Guess I got tired of seeing no one willing to acknowledge the credibility of anyone else's arguments...

Truthfully he has said about all he can. Just repeating stuff. Really hope you haven't wound him up again. Oh well...there is always the ignore button.

If you take away the evangelical beliefs, the creationism, the close relationship with the current POTUS, the history with Falwell Sr all the way back to trying to discredit MLK, the teletubbies, 9/11 comments and such and put that in a "not athletics" lockbox, you still have the major issue of Liberty hiring Ian McCaw as their AD after he was forced out at Baylor for, at-best, being negligible when it came to criminal acts without a shred of compassion or admission of guilt. Liberty found someone who could get them to FBS no matter what his track record is.

(05-27-2017 09:58 PM)T-Dog Wrote:  If you take away the evangelical beliefs, the creationism, the close relationship with the current POTUS, the history with Falwell Sr all the way back to trying to discredit MLK, the teletubbies, 9/11 comments and such and put that in a "not athletics" lockbox, you still have the major issue of Liberty hiring Ian McCaw as their AD after he was forced out at Baylor for, at-best, being negligible when it came to criminal acts without a shred of compassion or admission of guilt. Liberty found someone who could get them to FBS no matter what his track record is.

The McCaw think is a big deal to me, and also the way they got to FBS. By whining. No one wanted Liberty. Sorry not sorry.

(05-27-2017 09:42 AM)NewTimes Wrote:  Once I thought Lazy was a FB fan. These 15+ pages of gay rights pleading causes me to think his interest may be to use FB as a means to change and bring awareness to gay rights. As Panama said, it's a football game and this is a sports forum. Discourse in any other direction is a personal crusade, as this thread clearly shows.

Agree . . Liberty is moving up to FBS Football and they have every right to do so without the SJWs screaming foul on a Sports Forum. Personally, I have no problem with my school playing Liberty or associating with Liberty in any way. KUDOS to Liberty. I hope they kick some ass on the football field and do very well at the FBS level.