(04-26-2017 05:26 PM)Joe1 Wrote:  Also while the experts here tell us how terrible the players we have signed are, there's no mention of the two FIVE star players they offered after seeing them this past weekend at AAU games. I thought Tubby didn't recruit five star players??

Joe, I don't know how the some of the things that are said about Smith got to be accepted as truth. He's always recruited players from five stars on down. A simple look back at who he recruited the last few years at Texas Tech would confirm that. He offered five star guys after he got to Memphis. it's true that he's never shown any inclination to break or bend the rules to get a player, and which probably cuts down on the number of high level players he will get. But this thought that he prefers three star recruits is just silly.

(04-26-2017 07:14 PM)Joe1 Wrote:  

(04-26-2017 06:55 PM)memtigbb Wrote:  

(04-26-2017 05:26 PM)Joe1 Wrote:  Also while the experts here tell us how terrible the players we have signed are, there's no mention of the two FIVE star players they offered after seeing them this past weekend at AAU games. I thought Tubby didn't recruit five star players??

The irony in that is it is usually the Tubby supporters saying he doesn't recruit 5star players because of the baggage, entourages, and problems they bring. It is the Tubby supporters who keep saying STARS STARS STARS in hyperbole. At this point we really don't know who Tubby is "recruiting" only a few of the players who have "offers".

Interesting how you address some as "Tubby supporters". Why everyone isn't a Tubby supporter at this stage (we haven't even played one game in year two) is beyond me. If after year three we aren't worth a damn, by all means don't be a "Tubby supporter". Heck if that's the case I'll be leading the pack and will want him gone. But we aren't there yet.

I have three issues with Tubby.

1. Hiring Saul when even Texas Tech would not allow Saul to be an assistant.
2. Not cleaning house when he got here instead of waiting a full year.'
3. Not recruiting for the first year and then scrambling to bring in Jucos. He was hired in April of last year, if he had spent that time recruiting instead of taking a vacation we probably would be a leg up. Even then, he didn't bother putting out a full press on recruiting until the pressure got heavy at the end of this season now he is scrambling to bring in bodies instead of real recruits.

That puts him behind the 8-ball, now he is not going to be given the benefit of the doubt that I gave him when he was hired, now it is time to prove something.

Also, I was really caught by suprise by the end of the season collapse. When he was hired, I said to friends that atleast we know that by the end of the season our team would be playing and more coached up at the end of the season. After the collapse, I really checked into his past and found out this was not abnormal at all for Tubby. Almost every single season his teams fall apart at the end of the season. It is not uncommon or abnormal for a Tubby coach team to end the season going something like 3-8 or 4-6 etc. He seems to have a history of his teams doing poorly during the end of the season. Even his NCAA tournament team from Texas Tech really only had a nice 3 game winning streak where he beat 3 straight top 25 teams, after that they fell apart. They ended the season with a first round loss in the conference tournament followed by a first round loss in the NCAA. That is not the kind of history that gives me much hope. Feel free to research it yourself and see if you can spin it any other way. We should have never lost to Temple or UConn. That would have given us a 21 win season instead of a 19.

(04-26-2017 07:21 PM)memtigbb Wrote:  

(04-26-2017 07:14 PM)Joe1 Wrote:  

(04-26-2017 06:55 PM)memtigbb Wrote:  

(04-26-2017 05:26 PM)Joe1 Wrote:  Also while the experts here tell us how terrible the players we have signed are, there's no mention of the two FIVE star players they offered after seeing them this past weekend at AAU games. I thought Tubby didn't recruit five star players??

The irony in that is it is usually the Tubby supporters saying he doesn't recruit 5star players because of the baggage, entourages, and problems they bring. It is the Tubby supporters who keep saying STARS STARS STARS in hyperbole. At this point we really don't know who Tubby is "recruiting" only a few of the players who have "offers".

Interesting how you address some as "Tubby supporters". Why everyone isn't a Tubby supporter at this stage (we haven't even played one game in year two) is beyond me. If after year three we aren't worth a damn, by all means don't be a "Tubby supporter". Heck if that's the case I'll be leading the pack and will want him gone. But we aren't there yet.

I have three issues with Tubby.

1. Hiring Saul when even Texas Tech would not allow Saul to be an assistant.
2. Not cleaning house when he got here instead of waiting a full year.'
3. Not recruiting for the first year and then scrambling to bring in Jucos. He was hired in April of last year, if he had spent that time recruiting instead of taking a vacation we probably would be a leg up. Even then, he didn't bother putting out a full press on recruiting until the pressure got heavy at the end of this season now he is scrambling to bring in bodies instead of real recruits.

That puts him behind the 8-ball, now he is not going to be given the benefit of the doubt that I gave him when he was hired, now it is time to prove something.

Also, I was really caught by suprise by the end of the season collapse. When he was hired, I said to friends that atleast we know that by the end of the season our team would be playing and more coached up at the end of the season. After the collapse, I really checked into his past and found out this was not abnormal at all for Tubby. Almost every single season his teams fall apart at the end of the season. It is not uncommon or abnormal for a Tubby coach team to end the season going something like 3-8 or 4-6 etc. He seems to have a history of his teams doing poorly during the end of the season. Even his NCAA tournament team from Texas Tech really only had a nice 3 game winning streak where he beat 3 straight top 25 teams, after that they fell apart. They ended the season with a first round loss in the conference tournament followed by a first round loss in the NCAA. That is not the kind of history that gives me much hope. Feel free to research it yourself and see if you can spin it any other way. We should have never lost to Temple or UConn. That would have given us a 21 win season instead of a 19.

Thoughtful post. I'll just say a few things.

1. I've never heard it said anywhere other than this message board that Texas Tech refused to let Saul Smith be an assistant coach. He was previously an assistant at Minnesota and was demoted by Coach Smith after his DUI. Again, during the three years at Texas Tech, where I followed the team closely and am friends with a couple of people who cover the Red Raiders, I never heard that TTU had refused to let Tubby make Saul an assistant.

2. As someone else pointed out, the outcry would have been earth shattering if Smith had walked in and kicked a bunch of players off the team, especially if that included the Lawsons. And, really, Smith doesn't run off players without some legit reason like rules violations or criminal activity. I think any coach would want to see if he could make it work with the talented players on the roster before "cleaning house" before they had even played a game.

3. It appears to me that the staff's focus last Spring and Summer was on the class of 2017. Still, between April and October they signed Johnson, Enoh, Nickleberry, Azab, Kessee, Chad, and Keon, while also going after guys like Stokes, Douglas, and a couple of other grad transfers that they didn't get, while also recruiting for the class of 2018. You can't really call that "not recruiting for the first year." I don't think they were on vacation.

Your point about the late season fade and seeing a correlation to the end of the 2016 season at Texas Tech has some validity. There are factors beyond what is on the surface, but I understand your concern.

(04-26-2017 05:09 PM)snowtiger Wrote:  Show of hands: Who has watched over 10 JuCo games in the last 4 years?

just curious is all.

over 10 jc football games (2 national championship games)

0 jc basketball games

(04-26-2017 05:27 PM)snowtiger Wrote:  We all are fans of Tiger BB and the program.

At the end of the season, Tubby complained that our expectations were too high.

We lower them and are now being told we are too negative.

The end.

The flip side is people saying our expectations should be an immediate turn-around, are the ones complaining about how we're filling out the roster. *shrug

May make you feel better what Tubby said at his presser this pm. He was given the opportunity by a media person to lower expectations about next year. Question was framed something like - with the total rebuild that you're going through, will we take a step backwards next year? Tubby's reply was something like - no, I expect no step backwards and that we will continue to improve.

Make up for the "flavor of expectations" yet?

(04-26-2017 03:41 PM)Briskbas Wrote:  

(04-26-2017 11:41 AM)Tiger87 Wrote:  ...

Pastner's other 4 classes were 38, 49, 67, and 120. Those are the 4 classes that I said are "comparable" to this year's 50-something class. Not sure what there is to debate about that, unless you want to argue that t #38 class is much better than #59. Of course, the 120 is not really comparable either, so.
...

Except those classes mostly aren't comparable. This class is ranked 59 based on 7 commitments. The only classes ranked worse than that are 2009 (Pastner's first year and the rank doesn't reflect Elliot Williams a 5 star, top 20 guy out of HS)), 2011 (67) (a two person class that included a 5 star recruit ranked top 10 in his class), and the next closest in rank is 2012 (49) (a four person class that had a top 50 4 star, and a three star recruit ranked similarly to our highest commit for 2017, who never broke 2 pts a game while he was here).

The closest to comparable was [edit 2015 2014], a class that was made up of 3 jucos and Dom Mcgee, so made up of just 4 guys, and still ranked 21 spots ahead of what we've got now.

The idea that a class where the highest ranked guy doesn't crack the top 150 (according to 247) is in any way comparable to one that includes a top 10 guy is facially ludicrous. This recruiting is indefensible at the University of Memphis. A class made up of this many guys should not be struggling to crack the top 50 at Memphis (the lowest comparably sized class under Pastner was the Lawson class at 10). Especially not when we're paying the coach a top 15 type salary. The fact that it was basically an own goal by the staff that we're having to recruit this many guys in the first place is just insult added to injury.

You act like you want to do a deep-dive into the recruiting analytics, but you really don't. As evidenced by your failure to admit that the ranking system for jucos is flawed. Totally skews a class like this year's. Also the failure to recognize that the more recruits signed late will almost always lower the ranking of the class.

(04-26-2017 07:46 PM)Motor City Sam Wrote:  

(04-26-2017 07:21 PM)memtigbb Wrote:  

(04-26-2017 07:14 PM)Joe1 Wrote:  

(04-26-2017 06:55 PM)memtigbb Wrote:  

(04-26-2017 05:26 PM)Joe1 Wrote:  Also while the experts here tell us how terrible the players we have signed are, there's no mention of the two FIVE star players they offered after seeing them this past weekend at AAU games. I thought Tubby didn't recruit five star players??

The irony in that is it is usually the Tubby supporters saying he doesn't recruit 5star players because of the baggage, entourages, and problems they bring. It is the Tubby supporters who keep saying STARS STARS STARS in hyperbole. At this point we really don't know who Tubby is "recruiting" only a few of the players who have "offers".

Interesting how you address some as "Tubby supporters". Why everyone isn't a Tubby supporter at this stage (we haven't even played one game in year two) is beyond me. If after year three we aren't worth a damn, by all means don't be a "Tubby supporter". Heck if that's the case I'll be leading the pack and will want him gone. But we aren't there yet.

I have three issues with Tubby.

1. Hiring Saul when even Texas Tech would not allow Saul to be an assistant.
2. Not cleaning house when he got here instead of waiting a full year.'
3. Not recruiting for the first year and then scrambling to bring in Jucos. He was hired in April of last year, if he had spent that time recruiting instead of taking a vacation we probably would be a leg up. Even then, he didn't bother putting out a full press on recruiting until the pressure got heavy at the end of this season now he is scrambling to bring in bodies instead of real recruits.

That puts him behind the 8-ball, now he is not going to be given the benefit of the doubt that I gave him when he was hired, now it is time to prove something.

Also, I was really caught by suprise by the end of the season collapse. When he was hired, I said to friends that atleast we know that by the end of the season our team would be playing and more coached up at the end of the season. After the collapse, I really checked into his past and found out this was not abnormal at all for Tubby. Almost every single season his teams fall apart at the end of the season. It is not uncommon or abnormal for a Tubby coach team to end the season going something like 3-8 or 4-6 etc. He seems to have a history of his teams doing poorly during the end of the season. Even his NCAA tournament team from Texas Tech really only had a nice 3 game winning streak where he beat 3 straight top 25 teams, after that they fell apart. They ended the season with a first round loss in the conference tournament followed by a first round loss in the NCAA. That is not the kind of history that gives me much hope. Feel free to research it yourself and see if you can spin it any other way. We should have never lost to Temple or UConn. That would have given us a 21 win season instead of a 19.

Thoughtful post. I'll just say a few things.

1. I've never heard it said anywhere other than this message board that Texas Tech refused to let Saul Smith be an assistant coach. He was previously an assistant at Minnesota and was demoted by Coach Smith after his DUI. Again, during the three years at Texas Tech, where I followed the team closely and am friends with a couple of people who cover the Red Raiders, I never heard that TTU had refused to let Tubby make Saul an assistant.

2. As someone else pointed out, the outcry would have been earth shattering if Smith had walked in and kicked a bunch of players off the team, especially if that included the Lawsons. And, really, Smith doesn't run off players without some legit reason like rules violations or criminal activity. I think any coach would want to see if he could make it work with the talented players on the roster before "cleaning house" before they had even played a game.

3. It appears to me that the staff's focus last Spring and Summer was on the class of 2017. Still, between April and October they signed Johnson, Enoh, Nickleberry, Azab, Kessee, Chad, and Keon, while also going after guys like Stokes, Douglas, and a couple of other grad transfers that they didn't get, while also recruiting for the class of 2018. You can't really call that "not recruiting for the first year." I don't think they were on vacation.

Your point about the late season fade and seeing a correlation to the end of the 2016 season at Texas Tech has some validity. There are factors beyond what is on the surface, but I understand your concern.

Thoughtful reply to a thoughtful post. I would add to #3 that we didn't have much playing time to offer last year. 4 starters were locks. We are not at a place where we can stockpile high talent 10 deep. This year, we have a lot to offer, and that ABSOLUTELY impacts recruiting success. All positions up for grabs. Come and compete for a starter's minutes.

That's also why I expect some to transfer out next year - when they don't earn the starting position. And the class balance will stabilize itself.

The folks claiming they did nothing last year refuse to acknowledge this.

(04-26-2017 08:41 PM)Tiger87 Wrote:  

(04-26-2017 05:27 PM)snowtiger Wrote:  We all are fans of Tiger BB and the program.

At the end of the season, Tubby complained that our expectations were too high.

We lower them and are now being told we are too negative.

The end.

The flip side is people saying our expectations should be an immediate turn-around, are the ones complaining about how we're filling out the roster. *shrug

May make you feel better what Tubby said at his presser this pm. He was given the opportunity by a media person to lower expectations about next year. Question was framed something like - with the total rebuild that you're going through, will we take a step backwards next year? Tubby's reply was something like - no, I expect no step backwards and that we will continue to improve.

Make up for the "flavor of expectations" yet?

If this doesn't please the naysayers then they simply don't like Tubby and will continue their pathetic stance

(04-26-2017 08:41 PM)Tiger87 Wrote:  

(04-26-2017 05:27 PM)snowtiger Wrote:  We all are fans of Tiger BB and the program.

At the end of the season, Tubby complained that our expectations were too high.

We lower them and are now being told we are too negative.

The end.

The flip side is people saying our expectations should be an immediate turn-around, are the ones complaining about how we're filling out the roster. *shrug

May make you feel better what Tubby said at his presser this pm. He was given the opportunity by a media person to lower expectations about next year. Question was framed something like - with the total rebuild that you're going through, will we take a step backwards next year? Tubby's reply was something like - no, I expect no step backwards and that we will continue to improve.

Make up for the "flavor of expectations" yet?

I gotta ask, where are the quotes from Tubby saying Memphis fans expectations are too high, or the quotes where he tried to lower fan expectations? If they are out there, I missed them.

Today he said, "I know we'll be a very good team." Doesn't sound like he was trying to lower expectations.

(04-26-2017 08:53 PM)Tiger87 Wrote:  

(04-26-2017 07:46 PM)Motor City Sam Wrote:  

(04-26-2017 07:21 PM)memtigbb Wrote:  

(04-26-2017 07:14 PM)Joe1 Wrote:  

(04-26-2017 06:55 PM)memtigbb Wrote:  The irony in that is it is usually the Tubby supporters saying he doesn't recruit 5star players because of the baggage, entourages, and problems they bring. It is the Tubby supporters who keep saying STARS STARS STARS in hyperbole. At this point we really don't know who Tubby is "recruiting" only a few of the players who have "offers".

Interesting how you address some as "Tubby supporters". Why everyone isn't a Tubby supporter at this stage (we haven't even played one game in year two) is beyond me. If after year three we aren't worth a damn, by all means don't be a "Tubby supporter". Heck if that's the case I'll be leading the pack and will want him gone. But we aren't there yet.

I have three issues with Tubby.

1. Hiring Saul when even Texas Tech would not allow Saul to be an assistant.
2. Not cleaning house when he got here instead of waiting a full year.'
3. Not recruiting for the first year and then scrambling to bring in Jucos. He was hired in April of last year, if he had spent that time recruiting instead of taking a vacation we probably would be a leg up. Even then, he didn't bother putting out a full press on recruiting until the pressure got heavy at the end of this season now he is scrambling to bring in bodies instead of real recruits.

That puts him behind the 8-ball, now he is not going to be given the benefit of the doubt that I gave him when he was hired, now it is time to prove something.

Also, I was really caught by suprise by the end of the season collapse. When he was hired, I said to friends that atleast we know that by the end of the season our team would be playing and more coached up at the end of the season. After the collapse, I really checked into his past and found out this was not abnormal at all for Tubby. Almost every single season his teams fall apart at the end of the season. It is not uncommon or abnormal for a Tubby coach team to end the season going something like 3-8 or 4-6 etc. He seems to have a history of his teams doing poorly during the end of the season. Even his NCAA tournament team from Texas Tech really only had a nice 3 game winning streak where he beat 3 straight top 25 teams, after that they fell apart. They ended the season with a first round loss in the conference tournament followed by a first round loss in the NCAA. That is not the kind of history that gives me much hope. Feel free to research it yourself and see if you can spin it any other way. We should have never lost to Temple or UConn. That would have given us a 21 win season instead of a 19.

Thoughtful post. I'll just say a few things.

1. I've never heard it said anywhere other than this message board that Texas Tech refused to let Saul Smith be an assistant coach. He was previously an assistant at Minnesota and was demoted by Coach Smith after his DUI. Again, during the three years at Texas Tech, where I followed the team closely and am friends with a couple of people who cover the Red Raiders, I never heard that TTU had refused to let Tubby make Saul an assistant.

2. As someone else pointed out, the outcry would have been earth shattering if Smith had walked in and kicked a bunch of players off the team, especially if that included the Lawsons. And, really, Smith doesn't run off players without some legit reason like rules violations or criminal activity. I think any coach would want to see if he could make it work with the talented players on the roster before "cleaning house" before they had even played a game.

3. It appears to me that the staff's focus last Spring and Summer was on the class of 2017. Still, between April and October they signed Johnson, Enoh, Nickleberry, Azab, Kessee, Chad, and Keon, while also going after guys like Stokes, Douglas, and a couple of other grad transfers that they didn't get, while also recruiting for the class of 2018. You can't really call that "not recruiting for the first year." I don't think they were on vacation.

Your point about the late season fade and seeing a correlation to the end of the 2016 season at Texas Tech has some validity. There are factors beyond what is on the surface, but I understand your concern.

Thoughtful reply to a thoughtful post. I would add to #3 that we didn't have much playing time to offer last year. 4 starters were locks. We are not at a place where we can stockpile high talent 10 deep. This year, we have a lot to offer, and that ABSOLUTELY impacts recruiting success. All positions up for grabs. Come and compete for a starter's minutes.

That's also why I expect some to transfer out next year - when they don't earn the starting position. And the class balance will stabilize itself.

The folks claiming they did nothing last year refuse to acknowledge this.

That's a great point about the playing time issue. It always makes a difference. I would imagine if you asked Amauri Hardy why he chose UNLV, playing time would be a consideration. Hardy might start from day one for the Rebels.

(04-26-2017 09:16 PM)Motor City Sam Wrote:  

(04-26-2017 08:53 PM)Tiger87 Wrote:  

(04-26-2017 07:46 PM)Motor City Sam Wrote:  

(04-26-2017 07:21 PM)memtigbb Wrote:  

(04-26-2017 07:14 PM)Joe1 Wrote:  Interesting how you address some as "Tubby supporters". Why everyone isn't a Tubby supporter at this stage (we haven't even played one game in year two) is beyond me. If after year three we aren't worth a damn, by all means don't be a "Tubby supporter". Heck if that's the case I'll be leading the pack and will want him gone. But we aren't there yet.

I have three issues with Tubby.

1. Hiring Saul when even Texas Tech would not allow Saul to be an assistant.
2. Not cleaning house when he got here instead of waiting a full year.'
3. Not recruiting for the first year and then scrambling to bring in Jucos. He was hired in April of last year, if he had spent that time recruiting instead of taking a vacation we probably would be a leg up. Even then, he didn't bother putting out a full press on recruiting until the pressure got heavy at the end of this season now he is scrambling to bring in bodies instead of real recruits.

That puts him behind the 8-ball, now he is not going to be given the benefit of the doubt that I gave him when he was hired, now it is time to prove something.

Also, I was really caught by suprise by the end of the season collapse. When he was hired, I said to friends that atleast we know that by the end of the season our team would be playing and more coached up at the end of the season. After the collapse, I really checked into his past and found out this was not abnormal at all for Tubby. Almost every single season his teams fall apart at the end of the season. It is not uncommon or abnormal for a Tubby coach team to end the season going something like 3-8 or 4-6 etc. He seems to have a history of his teams doing poorly during the end of the season. Even his NCAA tournament team from Texas Tech really only had a nice 3 game winning streak where he beat 3 straight top 25 teams, after that they fell apart. They ended the season with a first round loss in the conference tournament followed by a first round loss in the NCAA. That is not the kind of history that gives me much hope. Feel free to research it yourself and see if you can spin it any other way. We should have never lost to Temple or UConn. That would have given us a 21 win season instead of a 19.

Thoughtful post. I'll just say a few things.

1. I've never heard it said anywhere other than this message board that Texas Tech refused to let Saul Smith be an assistant coach. He was previously an assistant at Minnesota and was demoted by Coach Smith after his DUI. Again, during the three years at Texas Tech, where I followed the team closely and am friends with a couple of people who cover the Red Raiders, I never heard that TTU had refused to let Tubby make Saul an assistant.

2. As someone else pointed out, the outcry would have been earth shattering if Smith had walked in and kicked a bunch of players off the team, especially if that included the Lawsons. And, really, Smith doesn't run off players without some legit reason like rules violations or criminal activity. I think any coach would want to see if he could make it work with the talented players on the roster before "cleaning house" before they had even played a game.

3. It appears to me that the staff's focus last Spring and Summer was on the class of 2017. Still, between April and October they signed Johnson, Enoh, Nickleberry, Azab, Kessee, Chad, and Keon, while also going after guys like Stokes, Douglas, and a couple of other grad transfers that they didn't get, while also recruiting for the class of 2018. You can't really call that "not recruiting for the first year." I don't think they were on vacation.

Your point about the late season fade and seeing a correlation to the end of the 2016 season at Texas Tech has some validity. There are factors beyond what is on the surface, but I understand your concern.

Thoughtful reply to a thoughtful post. I would add to #3 that we didn't have much playing time to offer last year. 4 starters were locks. We are not at a place where we can stockpile high talent 10 deep. This year, we have a lot to offer, and that ABSOLUTELY impacts recruiting success. All positions up for grabs. Come and compete for a starter's minutes.

That's also why I expect some to transfer out next year - when they don't earn the starting position. And the class balance will stabilize itself.

The folks claiming they did nothing last year refuse to acknowledge this.

That's a great point about the playing time issue. It always makes a difference. I would imagine if you asked Amauri Hardy why he chose UNLV, playing time would be a consideration. Hardy might start from day one for the Rebels.

We don't have a single player that any decent recruit should be worried about when it comes to playing time.

(04-27-2017 07:19 AM)Stammers Wrote:  

(04-26-2017 09:16 PM)Motor City Sam Wrote:  

(04-26-2017 08:53 PM)Tiger87 Wrote:  

(04-26-2017 07:46 PM)Motor City Sam Wrote:  

(04-26-2017 07:21 PM)memtigbb Wrote:  I have three issues with Tubby.

1. Hiring Saul when even Texas Tech would not allow Saul to be an assistant.
2. Not cleaning house when he got here instead of waiting a full year.'
3. Not recruiting for the first year and then scrambling to bring in Jucos. He was hired in April of last year, if he had spent that time recruiting instead of taking a vacation we probably would be a leg up. Even then, he didn't bother putting out a full press on recruiting until the pressure got heavy at the end of this season now he is scrambling to bring in bodies instead of real recruits.

That puts him behind the 8-ball, now he is not going to be given the benefit of the doubt that I gave him when he was hired, now it is time to prove something.

Also, I was really caught by suprise by the end of the season collapse. When he was hired, I said to friends that atleast we know that by the end of the season our team would be playing and more coached up at the end of the season. After the collapse, I really checked into his past and found out this was not abnormal at all for Tubby. Almost every single season his teams fall apart at the end of the season. It is not uncommon or abnormal for a Tubby coach team to end the season going something like 3-8 or 4-6 etc. He seems to have a history of his teams doing poorly during the end of the season. Even his NCAA tournament team from Texas Tech really only had a nice 3 game winning streak where he beat 3 straight top 25 teams, after that they fell apart. They ended the season with a first round loss in the conference tournament followed by a first round loss in the NCAA. That is not the kind of history that gives me much hope. Feel free to research it yourself and see if you can spin it any other way. We should have never lost to Temple or UConn. That would have given us a 21 win season instead of a 19.

Thoughtful post. I'll just say a few things.

1. I've never heard it said anywhere other than this message board that Texas Tech refused to let Saul Smith be an assistant coach. He was previously an assistant at Minnesota and was demoted by Coach Smith after his DUI. Again, during the three years at Texas Tech, where I followed the team closely and am friends with a couple of people who cover the Red Raiders, I never heard that TTU had refused to let Tubby make Saul an assistant.

2. As someone else pointed out, the outcry would have been earth shattering if Smith had walked in and kicked a bunch of players off the team, especially if that included the Lawsons. And, really, Smith doesn't run off players without some legit reason like rules violations or criminal activity. I think any coach would want to see if he could make it work with the talented players on the roster before "cleaning house" before they had even played a game.

3. It appears to me that the staff's focus last Spring and Summer was on the class of 2017. Still, between April and October they signed Johnson, Enoh, Nickleberry, Azab, Kessee, Chad, and Keon, while also going after guys like Stokes, Douglas, and a couple of other grad transfers that they didn't get, while also recruiting for the class of 2018. You can't really call that "not recruiting for the first year." I don't think they were on vacation.

Your point about the late season fade and seeing a correlation to the end of the 2016 season at Texas Tech has some validity. There are factors beyond what is on the surface, but I understand your concern.

Thoughtful reply to a thoughtful post. I would add to #3 that we didn't have much playing time to offer last year. 4 starters were locks. We are not at a place where we can stockpile high talent 10 deep. This year, we have a lot to offer, and that ABSOLUTELY impacts recruiting success. All positions up for grabs. Come and compete for a starter's minutes.

That's also why I expect some to transfer out next year - when they don't earn the starting position. And the class balance will stabilize itself.

The folks claiming they did nothing last year refuse to acknowledge this.

That's a great point about the playing time issue. It always makes a difference. I would imagine if you asked Amauri Hardy why he chose UNLV, playing time would be a consideration. Hardy might start from day one for the Rebels.

We don't have a single player that any decent recruit should be worried about when it comes to playing time.

Missing the point. At least my point. That was about last year vs this year recruiting. Last year, during the late period, recruits were seeing 4 positions locked up. This year, they're seeing 1 position locked up.

(04-26-2017 08:55 PM)Motor City Sam Wrote:  

(04-26-2017 08:41 PM)Tiger87 Wrote:  

(04-26-2017 05:27 PM)snowtiger Wrote:  We all are fans of Tiger BB and the program.

At the end of the season, Tubby complained that our expectations were too high.

We lower them and are now being told we are too negative.

The end.

The flip side is people saying our expectations should be an immediate turn-around, are the ones complaining about how we're filling out the roster. *shrug

May make you feel better what Tubby said at his presser this pm. He was given the opportunity by a media person to lower expectations about next year. Question was framed something like - with the total rebuild that you're going through, will we take a step backwards next year? Tubby's reply was something like - no, I expect no step backwards and that we will continue to improve.

Make up for the "flavor of expectations" yet?

I gotta ask, where are the quotes from Tubby saying Memphis fans expectations are too high, or the quotes where he tried to lower fan expectations? If they are out there, I missed them.

Today he said, "I know we'll be a very good team." Doesn't sound like he was trying to lower expectations.

It comes from this comment during his end of season presser:

"you’ve got a flavor here just of expectations. … We were picked to finish fifth this year and we finished fifth."

Bad wording on his part. He was talking off the cuff like he does and being honest. I think it probably was directed towards the distractions and chatter that he had been dealing with since the Florida road trip, and the toil that had taken on him and the team's performance. But he went somewhere he shouldn't have.

(04-27-2017 08:33 AM)Tiger87 Wrote:  

(04-26-2017 08:55 PM)Motor City Sam Wrote:  

(04-26-2017 08:41 PM)Tiger87 Wrote:  

(04-26-2017 05:27 PM)snowtiger Wrote:  We all are fans of Tiger BB and the program.

At the end of the season, Tubby complained that our expectations were too high.

We lower them and are now being told we are too negative.

The end.

The flip side is people saying our expectations should be an immediate turn-around, are the ones complaining about how we're filling out the roster. *shrug

May make you feel better what Tubby said at his presser this pm. He was given the opportunity by a media person to lower expectations about next year. Question was framed something like - with the total rebuild that you're going through, will we take a step backwards next year? Tubby's reply was something like - no, I expect no step backwards and that we will continue to improve.

Make up for the "flavor of expectations" yet?

I gotta ask, where are the quotes from Tubby saying Memphis fans expectations are too high, or the quotes where he tried to lower fan expectations? If they are out there, I missed them.

Today he said, "I know we'll be a very good team." Doesn't sound like he was trying to lower expectations.

It comes from this comment during his end of season presser:

"you’ve got a flavor here just of expectations. … We were picked to finish fifth this year and we finished fifth."

Bad wording on his part. He was talking off the cuff like he does and being honest. I think it probably was directed towards the distractions and chatter that he had been dealing with since the Florida road trip, and the toil that had taken on him and the team's performance. But he went somewhere he shouldn't have.

I'll say bad wording and somewhere he shouldn't have gone in the context of speaking to an audience that included people (not you) who are examining every statement to find something they can complain about. In any case, I don't think that one statement carries more weight than the things he has said up through yesterday about his own championship expectations for the program.

And, yeah, you are probably right. It was likely directed towards the people who were demanding his job after one year based on that finish with everything that was going on.

(04-27-2017 08:27 AM)Tiger87 Wrote:  

(04-27-2017 07:19 AM)Stammers Wrote:  

(04-26-2017 09:16 PM)Motor City Sam Wrote:  

(04-26-2017 08:53 PM)Tiger87 Wrote:  

(04-26-2017 07:46 PM)Motor City Sam Wrote:  Thoughtful post. I'll just say a few things.

1. I've never heard it said anywhere other than this message board that Texas Tech refused to let Saul Smith be an assistant coach. He was previously an assistant at Minnesota and was demoted by Coach Smith after his DUI. Again, during the three years at Texas Tech, where I followed the team closely and am friends with a couple of people who cover the Red Raiders, I never heard that TTU had refused to let Tubby make Saul an assistant.

2. As someone else pointed out, the outcry would have been earth shattering if Smith had walked in and kicked a bunch of players off the team, especially if that included the Lawsons. And, really, Smith doesn't run off players without some legit reason like rules violations or criminal activity. I think any coach would want to see if he could make it work with the talented players on the roster before "cleaning house" before they had even played a game.

3. It appears to me that the staff's focus last Spring and Summer was on the class of 2017. Still, between April and October they signed Johnson, Enoh, Nickleberry, Azab, Kessee, Chad, and Keon, while also going after guys like Stokes, Douglas, and a couple of other grad transfers that they didn't get, while also recruiting for the class of 2018. You can't really call that "not recruiting for the first year." I don't think they were on vacation.

Your point about the late season fade and seeing a correlation to the end of the 2016 season at Texas Tech has some validity. There are factors beyond what is on the surface, but I understand your concern.

Thoughtful reply to a thoughtful post. I would add to #3 that we didn't have much playing time to offer last year. 4 starters were locks. We are not at a place where we can stockpile high talent 10 deep. This year, we have a lot to offer, and that ABSOLUTELY impacts recruiting success. All positions up for grabs. Come and compete for a starter's minutes.

That's also why I expect some to transfer out next year - when they don't earn the starting position. And the class balance will stabilize itself.

The folks claiming they did nothing last year refuse to acknowledge this.

That's a great point about the playing time issue. It always makes a difference. I would imagine if you asked Amauri Hardy why he chose UNLV, playing time would be a consideration. Hardy might start from day one for the Rebels.

We don't have a single player that any decent recruit should be worried about when it comes to playing time.

Missing the point. At least my point. That was about last year vs this year recruiting. Last year, during the late period, recruits were seeing 4 positions locked up. This year, they're seeing 1 position locked up.

4 positions locked up? Dude.

(04-26-2017 08:47 PM)Tiger87 Wrote:  

(04-26-2017 03:41 PM)Briskbas Wrote:  

(04-26-2017 11:41 AM)Tiger87 Wrote:  ...

Pastner's other 4 classes were 38, 49, 67, and 120. Those are the 4 classes that I said are "comparable" to this year's 50-something class. Not sure what there is to debate about that, unless you want to argue that t #38 class is much better than #59. Of course, the 120 is not really comparable either, so.
...

Except those classes mostly aren't comparable. This class is ranked 59 based on 7 commitments. The only classes ranked worse than that are 2009 (Pastner's first year and the rank doesn't reflect Elliot Williams a 5 star, top 20 guy out of HS)), 2011 (67) (a two person class that included a 5 star recruit ranked top 10 in his class), and the next closest in rank is 2012 (49) (a four person class that had a top 50 4 star, and a three star recruit ranked similarly to our highest commit for 2017, who never broke 2 pts a game while he was here).

The closest to comparable was [edit 2015 2014], a class that was made up of 3 jucos and Dom Mcgee, so made up of just 4 guys, and still ranked 21 spots ahead of what we've got now.

The idea that a class where the highest ranked guy doesn't crack the top 150 (according to 247) is in any way comparable to one that includes a top 10 guy is facially ludicrous. This recruiting is indefensible at the University of Memphis. A class made up of this many guys should not be struggling to crack the top 50 at Memphis (the lowest comparably sized class under Pastner was the Lawson class at 10). Especially not when we're paying the coach a top 15 type salary. The fact that it was basically an own goal by the staff that we're having to recruit this many guys in the first place is just insult added to injury.

You act like you want to do a deep-dive into the recruiting analytics, but you really don't. As evidenced by your failure to admit that the ranking system for jucos is flawed. Totally skews a class like this year's. Also the failure to recognize that the more recruits signed late will almost always lower the ranking of the class.

"Those numbers show comparable recruitng to many of Pastner's classes" "No they don't" "You can't trust those numbers anyway"

... is an interesting rhetorical strategy.

(04-26-2017 10:35 AM)Tiger87 Wrote:  

(04-25-2017 01:28 PM)Stammers Wrote:  I don't think that they would laugh at all. They would have probably laughed at the suggestion that Tubby's recruiting at Memphis would be worse than it was at Minnesota and Texas Tech. Before witnessing it, I would have also thought that that was impossible.

That's just a false statement. His only complete class he's had at Memphis was better than his first class at either Minny or TTU. His average of his first 2 classes here will be better than his average for his tenure at both other schools.

You may not like the way he's recruiting, but his class is shaping up this year. Will be comparable to what Pastner had here for 4 of his 7 years here. Take out the daddy factor, and it's 4 of Pastner's 6 years here.

Once again, to point out how silly this statement is...

2009
Will Coleman and Elliot Williams versus Kessee, Rivers and Chad; massive advantage Pastner

2010
Like killing a fly with an atomic bomb, advantage Pastner

2011
Adonis Thomas #17 versus Johnson the highest rated at #106. Advantage Pastner

2012
Shaq at #44 and Wilson at #140; assume the jucos this year are equal to Geron Johnson. Advantage Pastner

2013
Haha. Advantage Pastner

2014
Magee at #72 still higher ranked than Johnson at #106. Will play nice and say advantage Tubby

2015
" Take out the daddy factor, and it's 4 of Pastner's 6 years here." Tubby had daddy and daddy was going to be the gift that kept on giving, a LEGAL means of paying for players

6 out of 7 years, Pastner crushes Tubby and there is no way in hell that Tubby comes anywhere close to anything Pastner did after his first 2 years. Tubby will never sniff a single player in the top 25. Pastner recruited 12 players in the top 60. Has Tubby had any of those in the last 10 years?

Transfers & Grad Transfers
Tubby
Chad
Kessee

Pastner
Michael Dixon
Elliott Williams
Charles Carmouche
Kedren Johnson
Ricky Tarrant
Ferokohn Hall
Calvin Godfrey
David Pellom

IF Tubby manages to sign the equivalent to Kedren Johnson or Ricky Tarrant and Calvin Godfrey or David Pellom, we MIGHT have been an NCAA team last year.

Last but not least, Tubby still doesn't have an above average point guard, power forward or center signed and has nobody on the horizon yet for next year. How can anyone defend him or talk about rankings given what he has (not) done is mind boggling.

(04-27-2017 12:32 PM)Stammers Wrote:  

(04-26-2017 10:35 AM)Tiger87 Wrote:  

(04-25-2017 01:28 PM)Stammers Wrote:  I don't think that they would laugh at all. They would have probably laughed at the suggestion that Tubby's recruiting at Memphis would be worse than it was at Minnesota and Texas Tech. Before witnessing it, I would have also thought that that was impossible.

That's just a false statement. His only complete class he's had at Memphis was better than his first class at either Minny or TTU. His average of his first 2 classes here will be better than his average for his tenure at both other schools.

You may not like the way he's recruiting, but his class is shaping up this year. Will be comparable to what Pastner had here for 4 of his 7 years here. Take out the daddy factor, and it's 4 of Pastner's 6 years here.

Once again, to point out how silly this statement is...

2009
Will Coleman and Elliot Williams versus Kessee, Rivers and Chad; massive advantage Pastner

2010
Like killing a fly with an atomic bomb, advantage Pastner

2011
Adonis Thomas #17 versus Johnson the highest rated at #106. Advantage Pastner

2012
Shaq at #44 and Wilson at #140; assume the jucos this year are equal to Geron Johnson. Advantage Pastner

2013
Haha. Advantage Pastner

2014
Magee at #72 still higher ranked than Johnson at #106. Will play nice and say advantage Tubby

2015
" Take out the daddy factor, and it's 4 of Pastner's 6 years here." Tubby had daddy and daddy was going to be the gift that kept on giving, a LEGAL means of paying for players

6 out of 7 years, Pastner crushes Tubby and there is no way in hell that Tubby comes anywhere close to anything Pastner did after his first 2 years. Tubby will never sniff a single player in the top 25. Pastner recruited 12 players in the top 60. Has Tubby had any of those in the last 10 years?

Transfers & Grad Transfers
Tubby
Chad
Kessee

Pastner
Michael Dixon
Elliott Williams
Charles Carmouche
Kedren Johnson
Ricky Tarrant
Ferokohn Hall
Calvin Godfrey
David Pellom

IF Tubby manages to sign the equivalent to Kedren Johnson or Ricky Tarrant and Calvin Godfrey or David Pellom, we MIGHT have been an NCAA team last year.

Last but not least, Tubby still doesn't have an above average point guard, power forward or center signed and has nobody on the horizon yet for next year. How can anyone defend him or talk about rankings given what he has (not) done is mind boggling.

I'll tell you what's mind boggling. The whole time josh was here you defended him, and here's Tubby one year under his belt and you take your shots at him. You make statements as if they are facts. No one for 2018 on the horizon?? You think Alex Lomax is on the horizon? This whole thing is a pathetic joke, defend josh even though he ran the program into the ground and rip Tubby after one year. It's a bad joke. And senseless.

(04-27-2017 12:32 PM)Stammers Wrote:  

(04-26-2017 10:35 AM)Tiger87 Wrote:  

(04-25-2017 01:28 PM)Stammers Wrote:  I don't think that they would laugh at all. They would have probably laughed at the suggestion that Tubby's recruiting at Memphis would be worse than it was at Minnesota and Texas Tech. Before witnessing it, I would have also thought that that was impossible.

That's just a false statement. His only complete class he's had at Memphis was better than his first class at either Minny or TTU. His average of his first 2 classes here will be better than his average for his tenure at both other schools.

You may not like the way he's recruiting, but his class is shaping up this year. Will be comparable to what Pastner had here for 4 of his 7 years here. Take out the daddy factor, and it's 4 of Pastner's 6 years here.

Once again, to point out how silly this statement is...

2009
Will Coleman and Elliot Williams versus Kessee, Rivers and Chad; massive advantage Pastner

2010
Like killing a fly with an atomic bomb, advantage Pastner

2011
Adonis Thomas #17 versus Johnson the highest rated at #106. Advantage Pastner

2012
Shaq at #44 and Wilson at #140; assume the jucos this year are equal to Geron Johnson. Advantage Pastner

2013
Haha. Advantage Pastner

2014
Magee at #72 still higher ranked than Johnson at #106. Will play nice and say advantage Tubby

2015
" Take out the daddy factor, and it's 4 of Pastner's 6 years here." Tubby had daddy and daddy was going to be the gift that kept on giving, a LEGAL means of paying for players

6 out of 7 years, Pastner crushes Tubby and there is no way in hell that Tubby comes anywhere close to anything Pastner did after his first 2 years. Tubby will never sniff a single player in the top 25. Pastner recruited 12 players in the top 60. Has Tubby had any of those in the last 10 years?

Transfers & Grad Transfers
Tubby
Chad
Kessee

Pastner
Michael Dixon
Elliott Williams
Charles Carmouche
Kedren Johnson
Ricky Tarrant
Ferokohn Hall
Calvin Godfrey
David Pellom

IF Tubby manages to sign the equivalent to Kedren Johnson or Ricky Tarrant and Calvin Godfrey or David Pellom, we MIGHT have been an NCAA team last year.

Last but not least, Tubby still doesn't have an above average point guard, power forward or center signed and has nobody on the horizon yet for next year. How can anyone defend him or talk about rankings given what he has (not) done is mind boggling.

How do we defend him...?
Let us count the ways.

1. We've never seen the new guys play.
2. The future hasn't happened yet-- not one game has been played.
3. We gave Pastner more time to shape up or ship out.
4. Tubby deserves respect for doing it his way.
5. The Lawsons were causing all the problems and not that good.
6. Markel was not that good.
7 Clergeot was a Tubbytype player who was not that good.
8. In three years we might get to the tourney.
9. Our wins will not be vacated.
10. Tubby and staff are working really hard now to recruit players.
11. They didn't know they would have to fill so many spots.

(04-26-2017 08:47 PM)Tiger87 Wrote:  

(04-26-2017 03:41 PM)Briskbas Wrote:  

(04-26-2017 11:41 AM)Tiger87 Wrote:  ...

Pastner's other 4 classes were 38, 49, 67, and 120. Those are the 4 classes that I said are "comparable" to this year's 50-something class. Not sure what there is to debate about that, unless you want to argue that t #38 class is much better than #59. Of course, the 120 is not really comparable either, so.
...

Except those classes mostly aren't comparable. This class is ranked 59 based on 7 commitments. The only classes ranked worse than that are 2009 (Pastner's first year and the rank doesn't reflect Elliot Williams a 5 star, top 20 guy out of HS)), 2011 (67) (a two person class that included a 5 star recruit ranked top 10 in his class), and the next closest in rank is 2012 (49) (a four person class that had a top 50 4 star, and a three star recruit ranked similarly to our highest commit for 2017, who never broke 2 pts a game while he was here).

The closest to comparable was [edit 2015 2014], a class that was made up of 3 jucos and Dom Mcgee, so made up of just 4 guys, and still ranked 21 spots ahead of what we've got now.

The idea that a class where the highest ranked guy doesn't crack the top 150 (according to 247) is in any way comparable to one that includes a top 10 guy is facially ludicrous. This recruiting is indefensible at the University of Memphis. A class made up of this many guys should not be struggling to crack the top 50 at Memphis (the lowest comparably sized class under Pastner was the Lawson class at 10). Especially not when we're paying the coach a top 15 type salary. The fact that it was basically an own goal by the staff that we're having to recruit this many guys in the first place is just insult added to injury.

You act like you want to do a deep-dive into the recruiting analytics, but you really don't. As evidenced by your failure to admit that the ranking system for jucos is flawed. Totally skews a class like this year's. Also the failure to recognize that the more recruits signed late will almost always lower the ranking of the class.

You can't assign a meaningful value to JUCOS because there isn't one, even when you only count elite JUCOS. Please tell me how you can assign how you would even attempt to evaluate a JUCO before they set foot on campus based on the following...

John Grice
Chris Massie
Will Coleman
Waki Williams
Stan Simpson
Geron Johnson

There is no rhyme or reason to how these elite JUCOS turn out and Grice was horrible his first year and Massie was just above average. We have one recruit this year that belongs on this list. How can you predict anything?