Hello There, Guest! (LoginRegister)

Post Reply 
What's the deal with baseball scholarships?
Author Message
illiniowl Offline
1st String
*

Posts: 1,162
Joined: Dec 2006
Reputation: 77
I Root For:
Location:
Post: #101
RE: What's the deal with baseball scholarships?
(03-10-2017 04:00 PM)mrbig Wrote:  Stumbled upon a few quotes from an insider (who seems to have abandoned the Parliament) regarding baseball scholarships. They were posted in fall 2015, but I think they fit into the discussion in this thread, so here they are:

(10-20-2015 07:51 PM)pueo99 Wrote:  It seems you missed the point that the recruiting challenges have changed since '97 to '08.....We no longer have a smaller base to recruit from based soley on academic challenges (which we used to our advantage). We now have an economic issue with schools not only challenging us on the academic front, providing a wider curriculum and equal to better ranking i.e. Vandy and others, but figuring out a way to provide more scholarship aid through stacking. These realities cut across every sport, including full scholarship sports. Baseball is not a full scholarship sport. We have the 11.7 and non stackable need based aid only.

And baseball didn't receive need based aid until 2003 when one player applied and received 40pct vs his 20pct offered out of the 11.7. We won the national championship on 11.5 and one 40 pct need based player. Need based aid went into full effect in 2004.

(12-28-2015 10:28 PM)pueo99 Wrote:  There's nothing illegal about what they are doing. Stanford has been doing it for years. State schools in Louisiana and Georgia have been reaping the benefits of their own programs supplementing the 11.7 with tuition waivers for whatever gpa for in-state students. There are now several schools that view giving equivalency sports an advantage in recruiting with additional legal aid as an overall positive for the school - Vandy, TCU, Virginia, Tulane, etc., etc..

Wayne Graham expressed a need for facility improvement after two college world series appearances. We got it and we went on a run. At the same time we were behind the curve in 2002 and fighting for need-based aid. We did not receive the full advantages of need-based aid in baseball until legal questions were raised AFTER 2003. We had guys (baseball) graduating with $50,000 debt while our Rice brochures bragged that no student would graduate with more than $10,000. These were not bad athletes but athletes that deserved more. We fought and we got it.

Now schools interested in baseball success have figured out ways to offer more aid that is LEGAL. Nothing illegal or immoral in what Vandy, TCU or other schools are doing. Baseball is an equivalency sport, meaning no full scholarships, meaning Ncaa allows 11.7 for a 25-35 man roster. Each to his own after that.

Again, Vandy, TCU, Stanford, Tulane, Baylor have been doing nothing illegal in providing additional aid to equivalency student athletes that qualify per NCAA rules. They have simply shown creativity and acknowledged value in their equivalency sports.

This is a very unique and conflicted place.

Thank you. Excellent find. As I posted in the Stanford thread, Rice's own stated criteria for $25K merit scholarships ("Students whose personal talents distinguish them within the pool of admitted applicants") not only would clearly allow them to be awarded to partial-scholarship athletes, it says on that very page that athletes have gotten them.

Personally, I'd guess that we are, in fact, keeping up with the Vanderbilt, Stanford, etc. Joneses when it comes to stacking but if we have consciously chosen not to, it again just goes to show that this place is hopelessly conflicted and not serious about fielding a competitive Div. I athletic program, much less striving to return to P5 status.

What I don't want to hear is that we have higher standards than Vanderbilt, Stanford, etc., or are not able to follow what they do, etc., because our applicant pool is so stratospherically competitive as to make giving merit scholarships to athletes impossible because it would go against NCAA rules. Clearly wrong.
03-10-2017 04:17 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
davidw Offline
Special Teams
*

Posts: 580
Joined: May 2013
Reputation: 5
I Root For: Rice
Location:
Post: #102
RE: What's the deal with baseball scholarships?
Wayne has stated several times that we can't get merit based schollys for the bb players; don't know what the disconnect is, then.
03-13-2017 10:43 AM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
Almadenmike Online
Hall of Famer
*

Posts: 20,608
Joined: Jul 2005
Reputation: 161
I Root For: Rice Owls
Location: San Jose, Calif.

DonatorsNew Orleans BowlDonators
Post: #103
RE: What's the deal with baseball scholarships?
(03-10-2017 04:17 PM)illiniowl Wrote:  What I don't want to hear is that we have higher standards than Vanderbilt, Stanford, etc., or are not able to follow what they do, etc., because our applicant pool is so stratospherically competitive as to make giving merit scholarships to athletes impossible because it would go against NCAA rules. Clearly wrong.

FTR: Selectivity figures (Fall 2015 acceptance rates, reported in U.S. News' 2017 rankings):

Stanford: 5%
Vanderbilt: 12%
Rice: 16%
03-13-2017 10:59 AM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
RiceLad15 Online
Hall of Famer
*

Posts: 16,692
Joined: Nov 2009
Reputation: 111
I Root For: Rice Owls
Location: H-town
Post: #104
RE: What's the deal with baseball scholarships?
(03-13-2017 10:43 AM)davidw Wrote:  Wayne has stated several times that we can't get merit based schollys for the bb players; don't know what the disconnect is, then.

I've always understood it that our baseball players could earn them, if they met the same academic criteria as the students who were receiving them, but they normally don't. And that at these peer schools, they are using the fact that the players are playing a sport as a way to say they merit them.

Basically the other schools are playing more loose with the academic "requirements" than we are.
03-13-2017 11:42 AM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
Tomball Owl Offline
Hall of Famer
*

Posts: 12,545
Joined: Oct 2005
Reputation: 71
I Root For: Rice Owls
Location: Comal County
Post: #105
RE: What's the deal with baseball scholarships?
(03-10-2017 04:17 PM)illiniowl Wrote:  
(03-10-2017 04:00 PM)mrbig Wrote:  Stumbled upon a few quotes from an insider (who seems to have abandoned the Parliament) regarding baseball scholarships. They were posted in fall 2015, but I think they fit into the discussion in this thread, so here they are:

(10-20-2015 07:51 PM)pueo99 Wrote:  It seems you missed the point that the recruiting challenges have changed since '97 to '08.....We no longer have a smaller base to recruit from based soley on academic challenges (which we used to our advantage). We now have an economic issue with schools not only challenging us on the academic front, providing a wider curriculum and equal to better ranking i.e. Vandy and others, but figuring out a way to provide more scholarship aid through stacking. These realities cut across every sport, including full scholarship sports. Baseball is not a full scholarship sport. We have the 11.7 and non stackable need based aid only.

And baseball didn't receive need based aid until 2003 when one player applied and received 40pct vs his 20pct offered out of the 11.7. We won the national championship on 11.5 and one 40 pct need based player. Need based aid went into full effect in 2004.

(12-28-2015 10:28 PM)pueo99 Wrote:  There's nothing illegal about what they are doing. Stanford has been doing it for years. State schools in Louisiana and Georgia have been reaping the benefits of their own programs supplementing the 11.7 with tuition waivers for whatever gpa for in-state students. There are now several schools that view giving equivalency sports an advantage in recruiting with additional legal aid as an overall positive for the school - Vandy, TCU, Virginia, Tulane, etc., etc..

Wayne Graham expressed a need for facility improvement after two college world series appearances. We got it and we went on a run. At the same time we were behind the curve in 2002 and fighting for need-based aid. We did not receive the full advantages of need-based aid in baseball until legal questions were raised AFTER 2003. We had guys (baseball) graduating with $50,000 debt while our Rice brochures bragged that no student would graduate with more than $10,000. These were not bad athletes but athletes that deserved more. We fought and we got it.

Now schools interested in baseball success have figured out ways to offer more aid that is LEGAL. Nothing illegal or immoral in what Vandy, TCU or other schools are doing. Baseball is an equivalency sport, meaning no full scholarships, meaning Ncaa allows 11.7 for a 25-35 man roster. Each to his own after that.

Again, Vandy, TCU, Stanford, Tulane, Baylor have been doing nothing illegal in providing additional aid to equivalency student athletes that qualify per NCAA rules. They have simply shown creativity and acknowledged value in their equivalency sports.

This is a very unique and conflicted place.

Thank you. Excellent find. As I posted in the Stanford thread, Rice's own stated criteria for $25K merit scholarships ("Students whose personal talents distinguish them within the pool of admitted applicants") not only would clearly allow them to be awarded to partial-scholarship athletes, it says on that very page that athletes have gotten them.

Personally, I'd guess that we are, in fact, keeping up with the Vanderbilt, Stanford, etc. Joneses when it comes to stacking but if we have consciously chosen not to, it again just goes to show that this place is hopelessly conflicted and not serious about fielding a competitive Div. I athletic program, much less striving to return to P5 status.

What I don't want to hear is that we have higher standards than Vanderbilt, Stanford, etc., or are not able to follow what they do, etc., because our applicant pool is so stratospherically competitive as to make giving merit scholarships to athletes impossible because it would go against NCAA rules. Clearly wrong.

During the 2003 championship series versus Stanford, the announcers compared the average SAT scores of the two teams. Stanford won that battle, but the averages for both were impressive. Not perfect score impressive, but impressive.
03-13-2017 01:28 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
georgewebb Offline
Heisman
*

Posts: 9,621
Joined: Oct 2005
Reputation: 110
I Root For: Rice!
Location:

The Parliament AwardsDonators
Post: #106
RE: What's the deal with baseball scholarships?
(03-10-2017 04:17 PM)illiniowl Wrote:  As I posted in the Stanford thread, Rice's own stated criteria for $25K merit scholarships ("Students whose personal talents distinguish them within the pool of admitted applicants") not only would clearly allow them to be awarded to partial-scholarship athletes, it says on that very page that athletes have gotten them.

I don't think anyone has said that these or other merit scholarships can't be given to athletes.
I think everyone has said that they can't be given to athletes based on the fact that they are athletes.
If you know of a merit criterion that would allow Rice to give significant merit scholarships to baseball players in a way that is NOT tied to athletic ability, but without giving the same scholarship to essentially all or nearly all of the student body, please let us know. Since you seem certain that the answer is easy, I expect you will let us know very quickly.

I have suggested one possible way: give a big grant to all students from Texas.
03-13-2017 03:39 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
georgewebb Offline
Heisman
*

Posts: 9,621
Joined: Oct 2005
Reputation: 110
I Root For: Rice!
Location:

The Parliament AwardsDonators
Post: #107
RE: What's the deal with baseball scholarships?
(03-13-2017 11:42 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  
(03-13-2017 10:43 AM)davidw Wrote:  Wayne has stated several times that we can't get merit based schollys for the bb players; don't know what the disconnect is, then.

I've always understood it that our baseball players could earn them, if they met the same academic criteria as the students who were receiving them, but they normally don't.
I think that's right.

(03-13-2017 11:42 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  And that at these peer schools, they are using the fact that the players are playing a sport as a way to say they merit them.
I don't think that's right. My understanding is that at many of the schools we are losing out to, baseball players do meet the same academic criteria as other students receiving merit scholarships -- not because their baseball players have higher academic profiles than ours (they don't), but because their overall student bodies have lower academic profiles than ours.

Obviously that analysis does not apply to Stanford -- but Stanford is a special case.
03-13-2017 03:57 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
cr11owl Offline
All American
*

Posts: 4,717
Joined: Feb 2009
Reputation: 29
I Root For: Rice
Location:
Post: #108
RE: What's the deal with baseball scholarships?
(03-13-2017 03:39 PM)georgewebb Wrote:  
(03-10-2017 04:17 PM)illiniowl Wrote:  As I posted in the Stanford thread, Rice's own stated criteria for $25K merit scholarships ("Students whose personal talents distinguish them within the pool of admitted applicants") not only would clearly allow them to be awarded to partial-scholarship athletes, it says on that very page that athletes have gotten them.

I don't think anyone has said that these or other merit scholarships can't be given to athletes.
I think everyone has said that they can't be given to athletes based on the fact that they are athletes.
If you know of a merit criterion that would allow Rice to give significant merit scholarships to baseball players in a way that is NOT tied to athletic ability, but without giving the same scholarship to essentially all or nearly all of the student body, please let us know. Since you seem certain that the answer is easy, I expect you will let us know very quickly.

I have suggested one possible way: give a big grant to all students from Texas.

Scholarships for kids who want to study sports management. Pretty sure Vandy does something like this except it's with the education school.

To further that, since I believe scholarships are evaluated at the end of each year I'd do something like this. Offer all of the best HS players either a full athletic scholarship (or 75%). If a student comes from a family making less than $100k or whatever the cutoff is give them financial aid to supplement athletic. After freshman year when they declare sports management give them $20k merit scholarships named after some famous sports management major (the Berkman scholarship). Drop their athletic scholarship to 25% and repeat.

Let the NCAA decide if that's an issue over the next 5 years until they decide to change the rules but for now I think that works. Get $5M in pledges and get this sucker rolling.
(This post was last modified: 03-13-2017 04:11 PM by cr11owl.)
03-13-2017 04:05 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
waltgreenberg Offline
Legend
*

Posts: 33,310
Joined: Feb 2006
Reputation: 141
I Root For: Rice Owls
Location: Chicago

The Parliament Awards
Post: #109
RE: What's the deal with baseball scholarships?
(03-13-2017 03:57 PM)georgewebb Wrote:  
(03-13-2017 11:42 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  
(03-13-2017 10:43 AM)davidw Wrote:  Wayne has stated several times that we can't get merit based schollys for the bb players; don't know what the disconnect is, then.

I've always understood it that our baseball players could earn them, if they met the same academic criteria as the students who were receiving them, but they normally don't.
I think that's right.

(03-13-2017 11:42 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  And that at these peer schools, they are using the fact that the players are playing a sport as a way to say they merit them.
I don't think that's right. My understanding is that at many of the schools we are losing out to, baseball players do meet the same academic criteria as other students receiving merit scholarships -- not because their baseball players have higher academic profiles than ours (they don't), but because their overall student bodies have lower academic profiles than ours.

Obviously that analysis does not apply to Stanford -- but Stanford is a special case.

That's correct, George-- the bar for merit scholarships is set higher at Rice than most other schools; even those amongst the academically elite. Remember, Stanford gives free tuition for ANYONE whose family income is below $100,000.
03-13-2017 04:07 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
waltgreenberg Offline
Legend
*

Posts: 33,310
Joined: Feb 2006
Reputation: 141
I Root For: Rice Owls
Location: Chicago

The Parliament Awards
Post: #110
RE: What's the deal with baseball scholarships?
(03-13-2017 04:05 PM)cr11owl Wrote:  
(03-13-2017 03:39 PM)georgewebb Wrote:  
(03-10-2017 04:17 PM)illiniowl Wrote:  As I posted in the Stanford thread, Rice's own stated criteria for $25K merit scholarships ("Students whose personal talents distinguish them within the pool of admitted applicants") not only would clearly allow them to be awarded to partial-scholarship athletes, it says on that very page that athletes have gotten them.

I don't think anyone has said that these or other merit scholarships can't be given to athletes.
I think everyone has said that they can't be given to athletes based on the fact that they are athletes.
If you know of a merit criterion that would allow Rice to give significant merit scholarships to baseball players in a way that is NOT tied to athletic ability, but without giving the same scholarship to essentially all or nearly all of the student body, please let us know. Since you seem certain that the answer is easy, I expect you will let us know very quickly.

I have suggested one possible way: give a big grant to all students from Texas.

Scholarships for kids who want to study sports management. Pretty sure Vandy does something like this except it's with the education school.

Yup...but, again, at Rice, Sports Management is now part of the School of Social Sciences (along with Econ, Poly Sci, Religion, Sociology, Psychology and Archiology). Unless an alum want to set up a specific scholarship for Sports Management majors...
03-13-2017 04:10 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
illiniowl Offline
1st String
*

Posts: 1,162
Joined: Dec 2006
Reputation: 77
I Root For:
Location:
Post: #111
RE: What's the deal with baseball scholarships?
(03-13-2017 03:39 PM)georgewebb Wrote:  
(03-10-2017 04:17 PM)illiniowl Wrote:  As I posted in the Stanford thread, Rice's own stated criteria for $25K merit scholarships ("Students whose personal talents distinguish them within the pool of admitted applicants") not only would clearly allow them to be awarded to partial-scholarship athletes, it says on that very page that athletes have gotten them.

I don't think anyone has said that these or other merit scholarships can't be given to athletes.
I think everyone has said that they can't be given to athletes based on the fact that they are athletes.
If you know of a merit criterion that would allow Rice to give significant merit scholarships to baseball players in a way that is NOT tied to athletic ability, but without giving the same scholarship to essentially all or nearly all of the student body, please let us know. Since you seem certain that the answer is easy, I expect you will let us know very quickly.

I have suggested one possible way: give a big grant to all students from Texas.

Was it too much work for you to read the stated criteria both quoted and linked in my post? The criteria for a Rice Trustee's Scholarship are eminently discretionary and wide enough to drive a truck through: "distinguishing personal talents." A school -- especially a rich, private one -- can define merit however it chooses to and award scholarships on that basis to whomever it chooses. I assume most of our baseball recruits are not one-dimensional and in their high school careers demonstrated talents in areas such as leadership, entrepreneurship, music, or any of a thousand other fields. The fact that Vanderbilt and Stanford and others are doing it pretty much ipso facto means it CAN be done, as they aren't any keener to risk their academic reputations than we are.

IF we are choosing not to keep up with them, then that's on us and yet another indicator of how hidebound and unserious this place is about truly competing at a high Division I level.
03-13-2017 04:18 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
georgewebb Offline
Heisman
*

Posts: 9,621
Joined: Oct 2005
Reputation: 110
I Root For: Rice!
Location:

The Parliament AwardsDonators
Post: #112
RE: What's the deal with baseball scholarships?
(03-13-2017 04:18 PM)illiniowl Wrote:  The criteria for a Rice Trustee's Scholarship are eminently discretionary and wide enough to drive a truck through: "distinguishing personal talents." A school -- especially a rich, private one -- can define merit however it chooses to and award scholarships on that basis to whomever it chooses. I assume most of our baseball recruits are not one-dimensional and in their high school careers demonstrated talents in areas such as leadership, entrepreneurship, music, or any of a thousand other fields.

Our non-baseball applicants are not one-dimensional either. Yes, Rice can define "merit" broadly, but even so, the definition cannot be a masquerade for athletic talent. For example, if a merit scholarship is based on "entrepreneurship", I understand that Rice would have to be able to demonstrate that it is given roughly proportionately to athletes and non-athletes alike who demonstrate similar levels of entrepreneurship.

Given that, what basis do you suggest Rice use?
For example, what basis do those other schools use?

What we cannot and should not do is say, "It's a 'merit scholarship' -- wink, wink -- but really it goes to baseball players."
03-13-2017 04:34 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
Tomball Owl Offline
Hall of Famer
*

Posts: 12,545
Joined: Oct 2005
Reputation: 71
I Root For: Rice Owls
Location: Comal County
Post: #113
RE: What's the deal with baseball scholarships?
(03-13-2017 03:39 PM)georgewebb Wrote:  I have suggested one possible way: give a big grant to all students from Texas.

I like that! Can we do it retroactively back to when Rice began charging tuition?

Alternatively, we could go back to the part of the original charter about no tuition if a student qualified for admission. A free Rice education should attract the best of all worlds including serious, talented student-athletes. Rice existed for many years with no tuition. Perhaps trimming administrative bloat and increased efforts to increase alumni participation in giving programs... The pitch (no pun intended) - you got a free top-notch education, time to pay up to keep it free for future generations.
03-13-2017 05:06 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
mrbig Offline
Heisman
*

Posts: 8,662
Joined: Jun 2008
Reputation: 127
I Root For: Rice
Location: New Orleans
Post: #114
RE: What's the deal with baseball scholarships?
I favor Rice charging zero tuition, but having students sign a non-binding promise to give a small percentage of their (post-tax) income to Rice for 20 years (true whatever their income level, so it does not inhibit job choices). A 2- or 3-year break after graduating before repayment (including graduate or professional school). or direct loans to the students? If the system fails, the school would fail, so it would be on alums to fulfill their obligations. A study in the tragedy of the commons...
03-13-2017 08:48 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
Old Sammy Offline
1st String
*

Posts: 1,676
Joined: Jun 2005
Reputation: 27
I Root For: truffles
Location: Houston

New Orleans BowlDonators
Post: #115
RE: What's the deal with baseball scholarships?
(03-13-2017 08:48 PM)mrbig Wrote:  I favor Rice charging zero tuition, but having students sign a non-binding promise to give a small percentage of their (post-tax) income to Rice for 20 years (true whatever their income level, so it does not inhibit job choices). A 2- or 3-year break after graduating before repayment (including graduate or professional school). or direct loans to the students? If the system fails, the school would fail, so it would be on alums to fulfill their obligations. A study in the tragedy of the commons...

I think Yale tried that years ago. It's not there now, so either a) they never went through with it or b) it didn't attract interest
03-13-2017 09:51 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
mrbig Offline
Heisman
*

Posts: 8,662
Joined: Jun 2008
Reputation: 127
I Root For: Rice
Location: New Orleans
Post: #116
RE: What's the deal with baseball scholarships?
(03-13-2017 09:51 PM)Old Sammy Wrote:  
(03-13-2017 08:48 PM)mrbig Wrote:  I favor Rice charging zero tuition, but having students sign a non-binding promise to give a small percentage of their (post-tax) income to Rice for 20 years (true whatever their income level, so it does not inhibit job choices). A 2- or 3-year break after graduating before repayment (including graduate or professional school). or direct loans to the students? If the system fails, the school would fail, so it would be on alums to fulfill their obligations. A study in the tragedy of the commons...

I think Yale tried that years ago. It's not there now, so either a) they never went through with it or b) it didn't attract interest

It would make a huge splash, and be a huge risk. I just think in this age of high student loan debt, something like this would really attract the best-of-the-best to Rice. Plus, it would obviously be great for athletics. Even if it was initially extended to just students graduating from HS in Texas.

Can the University loan money to students, rather than having to use banks? If student loans could be provided directly by Rice, that would open all kinds of opportunities for loan forgiveness. Rice could forgive 50% of the loan debt for everyone who graduates?
03-13-2017 10:56 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
illiniowl Offline
1st String
*

Posts: 1,162
Joined: Dec 2006
Reputation: 77
I Root For:
Location:
Post: #117
RE: What's the deal with baseball scholarships?
(03-13-2017 04:34 PM)georgewebb Wrote:  
(03-13-2017 04:18 PM)illiniowl Wrote:  The criteria for a Rice Trustee's Scholarship are eminently discretionary and wide enough to drive a truck through: "distinguishing personal talents." A school -- especially a rich, private one -- can define merit however it chooses to and award scholarships on that basis to whomever it chooses. I assume most of our baseball recruits are not one-dimensional and in their high school careers demonstrated talents in areas such as leadership, entrepreneurship, music, or any of a thousand other fields.

Our non-baseball applicants are not one-dimensional either. Yes, Rice can define "merit" broadly, but even so, the definition cannot be a masquerade for athletic talent. For example, if a merit scholarship is based on "entrepreneurship", I understand that Rice would have to be able to demonstrate that it is given roughly proportionately to athletes and non-athletes alike who demonstrate similar levels of entrepreneurship.

Given that, what basis do you suggest Rice use?
For example, what basis do those other schools use?

What we cannot and should not do is say, "It's a 'merit scholarship' -- wink, wink -- but really it goes to baseball players."

Let's start with the premise, which no one has thus far disputed and in fact has been cited multiple times as an excuse for an evident competitive advantage vis-à-vis Rice baseball over the last several years, that Vanderbilt has supplemented some partial baseball scholarships with merit scholarships. Fair enough?

Assuming that is true, then one of two things is also true: Either Vanderbilt is cheating or it is acting within the rules. No one seems to think the former (if you do, please turn them in to the NCAA at once), so evidently it is the latter.

Therefore, if Vanderbilt can do it, there is no rational reason that Rice cannot do it also. Vanderbilt's admitted student profile is every bit as competitive as Rice's. Yeah, they have an education school (Peabody). It is not, however, some secret, easier backdoor into Vanderbilt. And in any event, a quick perusal of Vandy's website reveals that there are no special merit scholarships for the Peabody School, just the music school.

How are they and other private schools doing it? Well, my guess is that they have categories of merit scholarships with criteria so broadly and fuzzily defined that anyone admitted to the school could plausibly qualify. Vandy's own website says (any emphases are mine):

Quote:Each year, Vanderbilt awards about 300 merit-based scholarships to incoming freshmen who demonstrate exceptional accomplishment and high promise in intellectual endeavors. These awards range from partial to full tuition and are renewable through four years of undergraduate study as long as the student maintains satisfactory academic performance. Financial need, unless otherwise specified, is not a factor.

Vanderbilt awards a number of scholarships to students choosing to enroll in any of the four undergraduate schools, including our three signature, full-tuition awards: The Ingram Scholarship, the Chancellor’s Scholarship, and the Cornelius Vanderbilt Scholarship. Detailed descriptions of these awards can be found on the Scholarships website.

Additional awards include: the Carell Family Scholarship for students who have held part-time employment during their high school years; the John Siegenthaler Scholarship for outstanding minority students interested in a career in journalism and/or public policy; the Fred Russell-Grantland Rice Scholarship for students interested in pursuing a career in sports journalism; and the Curb Leadership Scholarship for students who place creativity and innovation at the center of their lives and use their talents and leadership to create new possibilities. Vanderbilt also awards specific scholarships to qualified students residing in Houston, Texas, and selected counties in Arkansas, Georgia, Kentucky, and Tennessee.

All those criteria could conceivably apply to just about anyone. And again, we are stipulating that there is no evidence they are cheating, i.e., evidence that there is some category of scholarships that is going disproportionately to athletes, or evidence that the Houston and "selected counties" scholarships are just pretexts for paying athletes merit money.

But here's the thing. While we amateur sleuths are out here fumbling around for explanations, how Vandy is doing it is surely not a mystery to Rice's coaches (including Wayne Graham) and the AD, whose jobs it is to keep abreast of the competition. Certainly, if they don't know how Vandy is doing it, they are utterly derelict in their duties.

So, if we are not doing what Vandy (and others) are doing, then again there are only two possible explanations. One, alluded to above, is ignorance/incompetence on the part of our coaches and AD. Let's not assume that. The other explanation, which is unfortunately far more plausible, is that our coaches/AD have asked the academic/financial aid side of the University for the same tools our competitors are using to keep up with the state of the art in playing within but to the full extent of what the rules allow, and have been told no. Not because it would be impossible/illegal (which clearly it wouldn't be, else why would Vandy be doing it), but because we simply choose not to. (One other note: our endowment is $5.5B and Vandy's is $4B.) Which once again points toward the conclusion that this university, at bottom, does not want or see the need for anything other than a window-dressing level athletic program.
03-14-2017 05:04 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
mrbig Offline
Heisman
*

Posts: 8,662
Joined: Jun 2008
Reputation: 127
I Root For: Rice
Location: New Orleans
Post: #118
RE: What's the deal with baseball scholarships?
(03-14-2017 05:04 PM)illiniowl Wrote:  So, if we are not doing what Vandy (and others) are doing, then again there are only two possible explanations. One, alluded to above, is ignorance/incompetence on the part of our coaches and AD. Let's not assume that. The other explanation, which is unfortunately far more plausible, is that our coaches/AD have asked the academic/financial aid side of the University for the same tools our competitors are using to keep up with the state of the art in playing within but to the full extent of what the rules allow, and have been told no. Not because it would be impossible/illegal (which clearly it wouldn't be, else why would Vandy be doing it), but because we simply choose not to. (One other note: our endowment is $5.5B and Vandy's is $4B.) Which once again points toward the conclusion that this university, at bottom, does not want or see the need for anything other than a window-dressing level athletic program.

A third possible explanation, though I have no idea what is going on behind the scenes. Rice believes what other schools are doing violates the rule or the spirit of the rule and is taking the high road by not engaging in such actions, even though Rice understands that the rule is not being enforced as Rice understands it. Kind of like the person who follows the speed limit, even though everyone else is speeding (to varrying degrees) and they know they will not get a ticket even if they were going 5 mph over. Or the person who returns extra change to the cashier, even though no one would ever know. I imagine an economist wouldn't like that explanation, while an ethicist or a philosopher might!
(This post was last modified: 03-14-2017 05:12 PM by mrbig.)
03-14-2017 05:11 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
HawaiiOwl Offline
Special Teams
*

Posts: 961
Joined: Jun 2009
Reputation: 14
I Root For: Owls
Location:
Post: #119
RE: What's the deal with baseball scholarships?
(03-14-2017 05:11 PM)mrbig Wrote:  
(03-14-2017 05:04 PM)illiniowl Wrote:  So, if we are not doing what Vandy (and others) are doing, then again there are only two possible explanations. One, alluded to above, is ignorance/incompetence on the part of our coaches and AD. Let's not assume that. The other explanation, which is unfortunately far more plausible, is that our coaches/AD have asked the academic/financial aid side of the University for the same tools our competitors are using to keep up with the state of the art in playing within but to the full extent of what the rules allow, and have been told no. Not because it would be impossible/illegal (which clearly it wouldn't be, else why would Vandy be doing it), but because we simply choose not to. (One other note: our endowment is $5.5B and Vandy's is $4B.) Which once again points toward the conclusion that this university, at bottom, does not want or see the need for anything other than a window-dressing level athletic program.

A third possible explanation, though I have no idea what is going on behind the scenes. Rice believes what other schools are doing violates the rule or the spirit of the rule and is taking the high road by not engaging in such actions, even though Rice understands that the rule is not being enforced as Rice understands it. Kind of like the person who follows the speed limit, even though everyone else is speeding (to varrying degrees) and they know they will not get a ticket even if they were going 5 mph over. Or the person who returns extra change to the cashier, even though no one would ever know. I imagine an economist wouldn't like that explanation, while an ethicist or a philosopher might!

As far as I am concerned, Rice should follow the lead of our academic peers IF they are serious about this. Many have stated that athletics can be a big marketing plus. if viewed as such, look on the expense as part of a plan to attract other students with other skills. I confirmed w a former Stanford Olympian that he feels they still have scolarships targeted at atheletes.
03-14-2017 05:48 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
georgewebb Offline
Heisman
*

Posts: 9,621
Joined: Oct 2005
Reputation: 110
I Root For: Rice!
Location:

The Parliament AwardsDonators
Post: #120
RE: What's the deal with baseball scholarships?
(03-14-2017 05:11 PM)mrbig Wrote:  
(03-14-2017 05:04 PM)illiniowl Wrote:  So, if we are not doing what Vandy (and others) are doing, then again there are only two possible explanations. One, alluded to above, is ignorance/incompetence on the part of our coaches and AD. Let's not assume that. The other explanation, which is unfortunately far more plausible, is that our coaches/AD have asked the academic/financial aid side of the University for the same tools our competitors are using to keep up with the state of the art in playing within but to the full extent of what the rules allow, and have been told no. Not because it would be impossible/illegal (which clearly it wouldn't be, else why would Vandy be doing it), but because we simply choose not to. (One other note: our endowment is $5.5B and Vandy's is $4B.) Which once again points toward the conclusion that this university, at bottom, does not want or see the need for anything other than a window-dressing level athletic program.

A third possible explanation, though I have no idea what is going on behind the scenes. Rice believes what other schools are doing violates the rule or the spirit of the rule and is taking the high road by not engaging in such actions, even though Rice understands that the rule is not being enforced as Rice understands it.

You may be onto something there.

If we believe that what others are doing, while working so far, is objectively improper and likely to blow up in their faces, then caution is justified.
If we believe that what others are doing is proper and we are simply slow on the uptake, then we are certainly missing the boat.
Both situations (justifiable caution AND missing the boat) have been features of Rice policy over the years.
03-15-2017 10:09 AM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply 




User(s) browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)


Copyright © 2002-2024 Collegiate Sports Nation Bulletin Board System (CSNbbs), All Rights Reserved.
CSNbbs is an independent fan site and is in no way affiliated to the NCAA or any of the schools and conferences it represents.
This site monetizes links. FTC Disclosure.
We allow third-party companies to serve ads and/or collect certain anonymous information when you visit our web site. These companies may use non-personally identifiable information (e.g., click stream information, browser type, time and date, subject of advertisements clicked or scrolled over) during your visits to this and other Web sites in order to provide advertisements about goods and services likely to be of greater interest to you. These companies typically use a cookie or third party web beacon to collect this information. To learn more about this behavioral advertising practice or to opt-out of this type of advertising, you can visit http://www.networkadvertising.org.
Powered By MyBB, © 2002-2024 MyBB Group.