(02-19-2017 10:19 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(02-19-2017 10:00 AM)Tigersmoke3 Wrote:  

(02-19-2017 09:28 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(02-19-2017 12:30 AM)BigEastHomer Wrote:  

(02-18-2017 11:55 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  While the Big East would surely welcome back our old friend UConn, the bolded part is wrong. The Big East is doing better without UConn than UConn is doing without the Big East. UConn is fading on the vine in the AAC. Their fans don't care about any AAC opponents, except a smidge for Cincy. Half the teams UConn fans regard as rivals are in the Big East, the other half are in the ACC. And the competition doesn't prepare them for anything nationally.

Unless the ACC comes calling, and it probably isn't, UConn should rejoin the Big East in hoops and dare the AAC to kick out their football. The AAC would huff and puff but wouldn't do it.

lol @ the Georgetown T-Shirt fan.

Dare the AAC to kick out football? They won't do it? As a Temple fan, I find that notion pretty funny... We've had our football jettisoned from two conferences.

LOL at the world's only Houston/UCF/Temple fan ... or what is it this week, Navy fan or Memphis?

Temple isn't UConn. It's not a state flagship. Different beast. UConn is just more valuable overall than Temple. If the ACC or B1G were to decide to expand in the northeast, UConn would be at the top of their lists, Temple wouldn't get a minute's discussion.

That's just the way it is.

We'll probably never know, but I can't see the AAC kicking out UConn football no matter what they do with hoops.

UCONN'S rivals are all in the ACC. UConn fans miss winning a helluva lot more than Providence and DePaul.

Their rivals are in the Big East and ACC. And sure, they care about winning, everyone does.

Obviously, the ACC is preferred because it's P5. And I don't think anyone at UConn wants to think about any conference moves that aren't to the P5, so this is all a parlor game. But the reality is UConn isn't P5 right now, and the AAC is hurting them. UConn fans are well aware that it was the extremely fertile Big East hoops climate of the 1980s that allowed JC to build their program up from scratch to begin with, and it can work the other way too.

Fans don't care about AAC opponents, which matters because you have to sell tickets even in years when you aren't contending for a national title. UConn is losing its basketball buzz, and that's worrisome.

UConn is losing its basketball buzz because of one down year? I don't think so. Especially since they seem to have turned their season around with recent success getting their record back over .500. A championship in the AAC tournament in Hartford puts them back in the NCAA tournament for the 3rd time in the past 4 years.

I think your point about selling tickets is more to the point. Attendance has been off since joining the AAC, and that is a concern. The best teams in the conference are not rivals and the worst teams are so bad that no one wants to watch them.

(02-19-2017 11:00 AM)TripleA Wrote:  

(02-19-2017 12:13 AM)Attackcoog Wrote:  

(02-18-2017 11:55 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(02-18-2017 11:40 PM)BigEastHomer Wrote:  What does that even mean? UConn would bring more prestige to the NBE than the reverse. They've won more Championships than that entire conference put together. They don't need the Catholic schools to give them the rub.

While the Big East would surely welcome back our old friend UConn, the bolded part is wrong. The Big East is doing better without UConn than UConn is doing without the Big East. UConn is fading on the vine in the AAC. Their fans don't care about any AAC opponents, except a smidge for Cincy. Half the teams UConn fans regard as rivals are in the Big East, the other half are in the ACC. And the competition doesn't prepare them for anything nationally.

Unless the ACC comes calling, and it probably isn't, UConn should rejoin the Big East in hoops and dare the AAC to kick out their football. The AAC would huff and puff but wouldn't do it.

Of course the AAC would dump them. UConns value is in basketball. UConn isn't Navy. That said, a MAC membership for UConn is fine. They likely become an annual bowl team there and probably can compete for a championship as often as not. That's likely better for UConn football thannbeing an AAC also ran in most years. So, I don't think there's any significant downside to the move for UConn.

Agree. The AAC would kick out UConn in football in a New York minute.

Agreed, the AAC would have no reason to keep UConn as a football only. Navy is a special case, maybe BYU and Army could get that deal.

Then again I think the question is irrelevant because going to the Big East = giving up on a P5 bid.

A quick look at UConn's most played bball opponents:

Syracuse-93 ACC
BC-86 ACC
Rhode Island-71 A10
Georgetown-66 BE
Providence-65 BE
Villanova-63 BE
Seton Hall-62 BE
St. John's-62 BE
Pitt-60 ACC
UMass-58 A10

Then there is a smattering of Holy Cross, Yale, Rutgers, UNH, and some smaller NE schools.

So Big East-5, ACC-3, A10-2

I can see why UConn fans would be interested in the Big East. Cincinnnati is the most played AAC opponent (22 games), and besides the match-up in 1995, they have all been after Cincy joined the BE/AAC.

(02-19-2017 10:19 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(02-19-2017 10:00 AM)Tigersmoke3 Wrote:  

(02-19-2017 09:28 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(02-19-2017 12:30 AM)BigEastHomer Wrote:  

(02-18-2017 11:55 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  While the Big East would surely welcome back our old friend UConn, the bolded part is wrong. The Big East is doing better without UConn than UConn is doing without the Big East. UConn is fading on the vine in the AAC. Their fans don't care about any AAC opponents, except a smidge for Cincy. Half the teams UConn fans regard as rivals are in the Big East, the other half are in the ACC. And the competition doesn't prepare them for anything nationally.

Unless the ACC comes calling, and it probably isn't, UConn should rejoin the Big East in hoops and dare the AAC to kick out their football. The AAC would huff and puff but wouldn't do it.

lol @ the Georgetown T-Shirt fan.

Dare the AAC to kick out football? They won't do it? As a Temple fan, I find that notion pretty funny... We've had our football jettisoned from two conferences.

LOL at the world's only Houston/UCF/Temple fan ... or what is it this week, Navy fan or Memphis?

Temple isn't UConn. It's not a state flagship. Different beast. UConn is just more valuable overall than Temple. If the ACC or B1G were to decide to expand in the northeast, UConn would be at the top of their lists, Temple wouldn't get a minute's discussion.

That's just the way it is.

We'll probably never know, but I can't see the AAC kicking out UConn football no matter what they do with hoops.

UCONN'S rivals are all in the ACC. UConn fans miss winning a helluva lot more than Providence and DePaul.

Their rivals are in the Big East and ACC. And sure, they care about winning, everyone does.

Obviously, the ACC is preferred because it's P5. And I don't think anyone at UConn wants to think about any conference moves that aren't to the P5, so this is all a parlor game. But the reality is UConn isn't P5 right now, and the AAC is hurting them. UConn fans are well aware that it was the extremely fertile Big East hoops climate of the 1980s that allowed JC to build their program up from scratch to begin with, and it can work the other way too.

Fans don't care about AAC opponents, which matters because you have to sell tickets even in years when you aren't contending for a national title. UConn is losing its basketball buzz, and that's worrisome.

UConn was never P5 to begin with, at least long term. They weren't in a major conference as recently as about 15 years ago. They're an FBS newbie that plays in a smallish stadium.

The reality is they are a Rhode Island or UMass on steroids and if they aren't careful, that great basketball history is gonna be ancient history in a decade or so.

(02-19-2017 11:05 AM)Bill Marsh Wrote:  

(02-18-2017 11:40 PM)BigEastHomer Wrote:  Basketball prestige? What does that even mean? UConn would bring more prestige to the NBE than the reverse. They've won more Championships than that entire conference put together. They don't need the Catholic schools to give them the rub.

That is simply not a true statement.

UConn NC's = 4 (1999, 2004, 2011, 2014)

Big East NC's = 4 (Villanova 1985, 2016; Georgetown 1984; Marquette 1977)

Add to the BE's 4 championships the history of St John's with NIT championships in the early years of tournament play were the equal of NCAA titles in those days. Same with DePaul's 1945 and Seton Hall's 1953 NIT titles.

The Big East is currently a top 3 conference based on their level of play and RPI rating. They have championships in the modern era and a history that goes back to the earliest days of national competition. That's a lot of prestige. UConn brings a ton of recent success but not a lot before the last 25 years or so.

I forgot about Marquette since their history with the Big East began after their time in CUSA.

We all know the deal.

We know the historical accomplishments of the programs in the AAC as well. From Cincinnati's National Championships (which put the AAC above the NBE in the history books), Houston's Final Fours, Temple's NCAA appearances and NIT Championships (back when it was just as prestigious at the NCAA tournament), Memphis's Final Fours.

There is a lot of prestige that resides in the AAC as well, and it's a relevant conference in all of the money sports - with recent NY6/BCS Championships.

Right now, the AAC's coaching fraternity (Tubby Smith, Cronin, Sampson, Jankovich, Ollie, Haith, Dunleavy, Dawkins, Dunphy) is where the potential of the basketball conference resides. USF will probably add more cachet to that group (judging by their hires in other sports).

We just have a lot of short benches right now because certain coaches are early in their tenures (Jankovich, Tubby, Dawkins, etc). That doesn't take away from what the AACs coaches and programs have already accomplished and contributed to NCAA MBB lore. By the time UConn is really good again, they wont be the only ones. If you don't believe that, you haven't been paying attention.

I wont be surprised if SMU and Cincinnati have deeper runs than all the NBE squads.

(02-18-2017 11:30 PM)john01992 Wrote:  What about a uconn/umass move to the Big East?

Does the AAC go after a school with a profile the is more in-line with their recent additions such as Rice or Southern Miss?

No

(02-19-2017 10:19 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  Fans don't care about AAC opponents, which matters because you have to sell tickets even in years when you aren't contending for a national title. UConn is losing its basketball buzz, and that's worrisome.

Selling tickets extends to football as well.

It would be interesting to see who is going to be interested in watching MAC teams (or the NM States, UMasses, etc).

If you're a UConn sports fan, there are a lot more seats to sell outside than inside.

As for fans... "Caring" is really more attached to success than it is opponents. Anyone that points fingers at AAC programs has 4 fingers pointing back at themselves. DePaul isn't going to drive box office either.

(02-19-2017 09:28 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  Temple isn't UConn. It's not a state flagship. Different beast. UConn is just more valuable overall than Temple. If the ACC or B1G were to decide to expand in the northeast, UConn would be at the top of their lists, Temple wouldn't get a minute's discussion.

That's just the way it is.

If Northern State flagships were the rage, then the AAC would have invited UMass a long time ago... and probably bumped up Delaware and Maine while they were at it.

We're not talking about an endangered species.

(02-19-2017 09:28 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  LOL at the world's only Houston/UCF/Temple fan ...

At least I have degrees from my schools.

You picked Georgetown to follow because you were a kid and liked their logo.

The UConn AAC/Big East argument will not end any time soon. As long as UConn is not in a power conference, the question will continue to be asked: For long long and to what extent is UConn and its athletic program willing to pursue the current course (in the American) into a power conference, and - at what point - do the leaders in charge decide to make a change and go down a different path (possibly with the Big East/Independence)?

There is, and has been, smoke with UConn since the AAC/BE split. Whether that materializes into anything is anyone's guess, but I find it hard to believe that UConn will still be in the American when 2020 rolls around.

(02-19-2017 12:16 PM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote:  There is, and has been, smoke with UConn since the AAC/BE split. Whether that materializes into anything is anyone's guess, but I find it hard to believe that UConn will still be in the American when 2020 rolls around.

I find it hard to believe that UConn would move to a Olympic Sports only conference before the Big 12 contract runs out and likely split occurs.

That's another handful of years beyond 2020. It'll be interesting to see if you're a Nostradamus.

(02-18-2017 11:40 PM)BigEastHomer Wrote:  The AAC wont consider UMass until the facilities piece has been addressed. They are more likely a NBE option. Probably more likely than UConn, given UConn has a football spot in the AAC that UMass highly covets. I don't see UConn giving up all that ground in football. What do they get for it? Basketball prestige? What does that even mean? UConn would bring more prestige to the NBE than the reverse. They've won more Championships than that entire conference put together. They don't need the Catholic schools to give them the rub.

*Alternative facts.

(02-19-2017 12:38 PM)RutgersGuy Wrote:  

(02-18-2017 11:40 PM)BigEastHomer Wrote:  The AAC wont consider UMass until the facilities piece has been addressed. They are more likely a NBE option. Probably more likely than UConn, given UConn has a football spot in the AAC that UMass highly covets. I don't see UConn giving up all that ground in football. What do they get for it? Basketball prestige? What does that even mean? UConn would bring more prestige to the NBE than the reverse. They've won more Championships than that entire conference put together. They don't need the Catholic schools to give them the rub.

*Alternative facts.

I didn't factor in Marquettes title in '77, which brings the NBE to the threshold of 4 (with Nova's recent one being the only one during the lifetimes of the kids playing on the court).
The AAC has more collectively but I digress.

(02-19-2017 09:18 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(02-19-2017 09:11 AM)Wilkie01 Wrote:  UConn only has two things of value. They are Women's basketball and Men's basketball. Women's basketball is the best in the NCAA, but unfortunately it is not a huge source of revenue for The American Athletic Conference. The Men's basketball program is struggling, but could be salvaged with a better coach. However, again basketball is not a big money maker for The American Athletic Conference. Given the Southern footprint of The American Athletic Conference, I would allow a weak UConn football program with limited football economic value to remain in The American Athletic Conference. I would seek another Southern school to replace them. I think teams need to be all in or out!

Like Notre Dame!

Notre Dame's sports add value to the ACC Conference, plus the 6 football games played against ACC teams is profitable. Hence, you are comparing apples to oranges.

(02-18-2017 11:30 PM)john01992 Wrote:  What about a uconn/umass move to the Big East?

Does the AAC go after a school with a profile the is more in-line with their recent additions such as Rice or Southern Miss?

OK, setting aside the questions of 1. the justice or injustice of associate memberships vs all-sports memberships and 2. whether UConn would make the move and 3. the merits of the Big East and AAC, addressing OP's title.

If I were advising the AAC, and UConn jumped to the Big East, I'd advise picking up UMass as a football-only. Not because UMass is especially valuable, but just for reasons of flexibility. Associate members are disposable if they become inconvenient, and you don't want to be stuck with a full member you didn't really want if, say, NAvy decides to follow UConn into independence.

IF you bring in USM or Rice or Marshall (or UMass) as a full member to stay at 12, then if NAvy (or anyone) leaves, you have to backfill again to keep a CCG. (You can't have 11 teams and a CCG unless one division has 8 conference games and one has 9). If you bring in UMass as a football-only, then if anything happens you can dump them like the Sun Belt did to Idaho and New Mexico State.

(And I would advise the AAC to kick out UConn football, just for reasons of self-respect.)

(02-19-2017 12:40 PM)BigEastHomer Wrote:  

(02-19-2017 12:38 PM)RutgersGuy Wrote:  

(02-18-2017 11:40 PM)BigEastHomer Wrote:  The AAC wont consider UMass until the facilities piece has been addressed. They are more likely a NBE option. Probably more likely than UConn, given UConn has a football spot in the AAC that UMass highly covets. I don't see UConn giving up all that ground in football. What do they get for it? Basketball prestige? What does that even mean? UConn would bring more prestige to the NBE than the reverse. They've won more Championships than that entire conference put together. They don't need the Catholic schools to give them the rub.

*Alternative facts.

I didn't factor in Marquettes title in '77, which brings the NBE to the threshold of 4 (with Nova's recent one being the only one during the lifetimes of the kids playing on the court).
The AAC has more collectively but I digress.

But 8 out of 10 BE teams have been to a final four. So collectively it's not the same.

(02-18-2017 11:30 PM)john01992 Wrote:  What about a uconn/umass move to the Big East?

Does the AAC go after a school with a profile the is more in-line with their recent additions such as Rice or Southern Miss?

UMass hasn't earned anything in the eyes of the Big East for inclusion. They are an average A10 basketball program.

I'd say the move to make for the AAC would be to go after Wichita State to balance out divisions and replace to an extent UConn in basketball.

UConn I believe should go Indy to try to get P5 schools to count them as a P5 for scheduling purposes like BYU is doing.

(02-19-2017 02:43 PM)johnbragg Wrote:  OK, setting aside the questions of 1. the justice or injustice of associate memberships vs all-sports memberships and 2. whether UConn would make the move and 3. the merits of the Big East and AAC, addressing OP's title.

If I were advising the AAC, and UConn jumped to the Big East, I'd advise picking up UMass as a football-only. Not because UMass is especially valuable, but just for reasons of flexibility. Associate members are disposable if they become inconvenient, and you don't want to be stuck with a full member you didn't really want if, say, NAvy decides to follow UConn into independence.

IF you bring in USM or Rice or Marshall (or UMass) as a full member to stay at 12, then if NAvy (or anyone) leaves, you have to backfill again to keep a CCG. (You can't have 11 teams and a CCG unless one division has 8 conference games and one has 9). If you bring in UMass as a football-only, then if anything happens you can dump them like the Sun Belt did to Idaho and New Mexico State.

(And I would advise the AAC to kick out UConn football, just for reasons of self-respect.)

I actually like UMass as a potential member... but only as a compliment to UConn. If UConn opted to go elsewhere, that diminishes the need for UMass.

For UMass, expanding their stadium now may be a gamechanger. However, short of putting that foot forward, I don't see the AAC extending the branch.

I believe NAVY would take the lead in steering any AAC expansion. They've thrived since joining their first conference, being within a whisker of winning the conference each of their first 2 years.

If you saw how vocal Gladchuk was during the Boise discussions, it's obvious he has Aresco's ear. The development of the AAC (paying close attention to the branding) was very strategic, and perhaps influenced by Navy as well.

There are a lot of options which include not expanding at all (at least immediately). After all, the football brand that has been nurtured and flourished over the last 4 years would be relatively unaffected by a basketball-centric defection.

The conference would likely have a broader perspective about any replacement - which would likely trigger phase 2 of the conference (in keeping with the initial branding decision).

Ask yourself, what does 'American' mean. Does it mean military academies? Does it mean East meets West (i.e. BSU, SDSU, BYU, etc)? Is it a combination of the two (CSU & AFA)? Is the AAC in a period in its history that it can trigger the 16-team model that is inevitable? How does the inevitable Big 12 implosion factor in?

Those questions will prevent any expansion that includes a Marshall, USM, or Rice.

Aresco/Navy doesn't want to go there. Expansion will be economically motivated and there is just no endgame in that direction.

UConn is very fortunate to have their spot. If they do give it up, it will be put to good use.

How "gung-ho" for lack of better word is Navy about adding Army to the American?

(02-19-2017 03:07 PM)BigEastHomer Wrote:  

(02-19-2017 02:43 PM)johnbragg Wrote:  OK, setting aside the questions of 1. the justice or injustice of associate memberships vs all-sports memberships and 2. whether UConn would make the move and 3. the merits of the Big East and AAC, addressing OP's title.

If I were advising the AAC, and UConn jumped to the Big East, I'd advise picking up UMass as a football-only.

I actually like UMass as a potential member... but only as a compliment to UConn. If UConn opted to go elsewhere, that diminishes the need for UMass.....

I believe NAVY would take the lead in steering any AAC expansion. They've thrived since joining their first conference, being within a whisker of winning the conference each of their first 2 years.

Those questions will prevent any expansion that includes a Marshall, USM, or Rice.....

Aresco/Navy doesn't want to go there. Expansion will be economically motivated and there is just no endgame in that direction.

.... is very fortunate to have their spot. If they do give it up, it will be put to good use.

So, hypothetically, if there's a UConn defection, what would BigEastHomer advise Aresco to do? You've talked down the usual list of options. So what's the plan, beyond I suppose "Listen to Navy"?

The reality is, if UConn goes it makes the AAC as a whole less attractive (and independce at least slightly more attractive). I don't think "invite Army, BYU and 3 MWC teams" is a realistic plan at that point--those schools didn't jump at a Big East invite when we were about to get a YUUGE tv contract.

At that point, your choices are A) add a member to keep the CCG or B) stay at 11 and lose the CCG. If you add a member, is it a full member, or a football-only? And who is it?