A few things have come up recently that seemed appropriate for this thread.

Trump tweeting about Nordstrom and Conway plugging Invanka's merchandise.

Looks like the Secret Service and Defense Department will both be paying Donald for space in Trump Tower.

Melania reveals in her suit against the Daily Mail that they hurt her "once-in-a-lifetime opportunity, as an extremely famous and well-known person, as well as a former professional model, brand spokesperson and successful businesswoman, to launch a broad-based commercial brand in multiple product categories, each of which could have garnered multi-million dollar business relationships for a multi-year term during which Plaintiff is one of the most photographed women in the world.”

http://www.usatoday.com/story/life/peopl.../97590284/

Sad!

And Trump trying to avoid ethical questions of Shinzo Abe staying at Mar-a-Lago. Abe will stay on site and Trump is personally "gifting" the trip to him and his wife. However, Abe's staff will stay off site to avoid other ethical issues. Looks like The Donald is paying attention to some things at least.

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/trump-hos...d=45361690

JAAO, RL15:

What do you suggest be done?

(02-09-2017 05:40 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  JAAO, RL15:

What do you suggest be done?

Not sure why you're asking me. I posted about how Trump was navigating the ethical implications of having a foreign leader pay him by gifting the stay to Abe and Abe having his staff stay off site.

If Trump refuses to divest his interests, then that is one way he can get around those issues.

(02-09-2017 06:40 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(02-09-2017 05:40 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  JAAO, RL15:

What do you suggest be done?

Not sure why you're asking me. I posted about how Trump was navigating the ethical implications of having a foreign leader pay him by gifting the stay to Abe and Abe having his staff stay off site.

If Trump refuses to divest his interests, then that is one way he can get around those issues.

You two clearly don't like Trump or anybody around him. Instead of just calling attention to whatever you think is wrong, which seems to be everything, what would you like to see happen? Impeachment AND removal? A rerun of the election? A coup? sudden death?

short of those things, we have four years to go. What, if any, parts of his programs would you like to see enacted? If there are none, do you feel like it is the duty of the Democrats to stop everything they can?

I like his tax proposals. I like some of his trade proposals, dislike others. I like some of his cabinet choices, dislike others. I hate the Wall.

What do you like?

Trump was never my first choice among the Republicans. he wasn't even ahead of Jim Webb, ASAIWC. Nobody on either side of the aisle liked the candidates from either side of the aisle that I liked, so I didn't get my way either. But I did like him better than Hillary. I liked everybody that announced in either party better than Hillary, so that was a low bar, and he barely cleared it, but he did. Now the election is over, and I don't see the point of opposing everything and endless protests. I want some of the things he is for to come about, and hope the dems will work with him on those. Others, like the Wall, are IMO just dumb. Wrong solution to a real problem. The immigration ban rollout was a disaster, reminiscent of the Obamacare rollout disaster. The process was flawed. Doesn't mean the goal was flawed. But the attitude seems to be to oppose everything, period. Because, you know, it's Trump.

I expect any day now to hear that a well placed source tells us Trump has a banana with his breakfast, fruit imported from Panama, and so by golly, he is is a lying hypocrite. maybe we could even get a SNL skit about it. Crowds of people (taking off from work, presumably) marching with signs showing bananas and Trump. LIAR!!! And then trashing the streets and burning a trashcan or two and throwing bananas at people. I wonder what they want, too.

Rather than just complaining and making fun, what can be done to make the best out of this situation? We are in the boat together, aren't we? I would rather see somebody take up an oar instead of just rocking the boat.

So it is a real question: what do you want to see happen? The next month, the next year, whenever.

(02-10-2017 02:00 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(02-09-2017 06:40 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(02-09-2017 05:40 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  JAAO, RL15:
What do you suggest be done?

Not sure why you're asking me. I posted about how Trump was navigating the ethical implications of having a foreign leader pay him by gifting the stay to Abe and Abe having his staff stay off site.
If Trump refuses to divest his interests, then that is one way he can get around those issues.

You two clearly don't like Trump or anybody around him. Instead of just calling attention to whatever you think is wrong, which seems to be everything, what would you like to see happen? Impeachment AND removal? A rerun of the election? A coup? sudden death?
short of those things, we have four years to go. What, if any, parts of his programs would you like to see enacted? If there are none, do you feel like it is the duty of the Democrats to stop everything they can?
I like his tax proposals. I like some of his trade proposals, dislike others. I like some of his cabinet choices, dislike others. I hate the Wall.
What do you like?
Trump was never my first choice among the Republicans. he wasn't even ahead of Jim Webb, ASAIWC. Nobody on either side of the aisle liked the candidates from either side of the aisle that I liked, so I didn't get my way either. But I did like him better than Hillary. I liked everybody that announced in either party better than Hillary, so that was a low bar, and he barely cleared it, but he did. Now the election is over, and I don't see the point of opposing everything and endless protests. I want some of the things he is for to come about, and hope the dems will work with him on those. Others, like the Wall, are IMO just dumb. Wrong solution to a real problem. The immigration ban rollout was a disaster, reminiscent of the Obamacare rollout disaster. The process was flawed. Doesn't mean the goal was flawed. But the attitude seems to be to oppose everything, period. Because, you know, it's Trump.
I expect any day now to hear that a well placed source tells us Trump has a banana with his breakfast, fruit imported from Panama, and so by golly, he is is a lying hypocrite. maybe we could even get a SNL skit about it. Crowds of people (taking off from work, presumably) marching with signs showing bananas and Trump. LIAR!!! And then trashing the streets and burning a trashcan or two and throwing bananas at people. I wonder what they want, too.
Rather than just complaining and making fun, what can be done to make the best out of this situation? We are in the boat together, aren't we? I would rather see somebody take up an oar instead of just rocking the boat.
So it is a real question: what do you want to see happen? The next month, the next year, whenever.

Responding to the portions that I italicized.

My position is slightly different. I like his tax proposals. I hate his trade proposals. I hate his immigration proposals. I generally like his cabinet nominees. Hillary was probably my favorite democrat in the field. Trump was perhaps my least favorite republican, if not he was close. I took some of those "Whom do You Agree With?" online polls during the election, and neither Trump nor Hillary ever got above 20%.

As for what I want to see, I have laid that out in great detail several times and see no need to do it again. Can we get there with Trump? I doubt it, but who knows? I will support anyone who gets us there.

I agree with what appears to be your observation that there seem to be a lot of people who viscerally hate everything Trump, regardless of the merits of the specific idea. I have seen the same things with republicans' visceral hatred of all things Clinton.

OO, in simplest terms, I want Trump and his associates to act like the leader of the free world and those whose job it is to assist a person with that responsibility. Sorry that you don't like the reminders of the type of incompetent actions that this administration has taken, but I'll probably keep posting them because while some aren't important (like the staff getting used to the WH layout), others are indicative of a administration that is run by an unethical toddler (just look at Trump's twitter account and tell me why you disagree with that).

Policy-wise, I don't know where to stand with Trump because I don't know what to believe he is really for or against. So far it looks like he is sticking close to his guns, which means I'm pretty much against a lot of his positions except for corporate tax reduction and infrastructure spending.

The Wall is an idiotic solution to a real problem that require pragmatic thinking. The travel ban was a poorly executed idea that has done more harm than good. His view on the Johnson Amendment seems to indicate he doesn't understand what it is and why it is in place (FYI - churches CAN be political, they just can't be political AND be a tax free organization). He allowed Betsy DeVos to buy a cabinet position despite her proven lack of understanding of both teaching fundamentals and federal education laws. I abhor the selection of Pruitt for running the EPA, as if the EPA does no good whatsoever. It has fed into this elementary level idea that the EPA should be abolished (just check out some bills being put forth on the floor), as I don't exactly want to return to a time when our rivers caught on fire. I think he has selected someone with serious ethical issues to head the HHS Department, as his multiple investment windfalls attest to (which is really an issue all throughout Congress, but that's a discussion for another time). And I could go on.

The problem is OO, the few things I agree with Trump on, are just that, a few. And there are a lot of things, I'm sure, that is Trump wanted to enact, I would be indifferent about (a good example was the roll back of that mortgage rate reduction he did use EO). But when he continues to prove that he is unfit for office by using his bully pulpit to actually bully people (targeting specific federal judges, state senators, businesses, etc) it concerns the hell out of me.

Why should we just focus on the minutiae of policy when he is literally yelling about how angry he is that one of the checks and balances checked his power? Does that not concern you, that we have a president who is livid that our courts disagreed with him?

(02-10-2017 06:36 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(02-10-2017 02:00 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(02-09-2017 06:40 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(02-09-2017 05:40 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  JAAO, RL15:
What do you suggest be done?

Not sure why you're asking me. I posted about how Trump was navigating the ethical implications of having a foreign leader pay him by gifting the stay to Abe and Abe having his staff stay off site.
If Trump refuses to divest his interests, then that is one way he can get around those issues.

You two clearly don't like Trump or anybody around him. Instead of just calling attention to whatever you think is wrong, which seems to be everything, what would you like to see happen? Impeachment AND removal? A rerun of the election? A coup? sudden death?
short of those things, we have four years to go. What, if any, parts of his programs would you like to see enacted? If there are none, do you feel like it is the duty of the Democrats to stop everything they can?
I like his tax proposals. I like some of his trade proposals, dislike others. I like some of his cabinet choices, dislike others. I hate the Wall.
What do you like?
Trump was never my first choice among the Republicans. he wasn't even ahead of Jim Webb, ASAIWC. Nobody on either side of the aisle liked the candidates from either side of the aisle that I liked, so I didn't get my way either. But I did like him better than Hillary. I liked everybody that announced in either party better than Hillary, so that was a low bar, and he barely cleared it, but he did. Now the election is over, and I don't see the point of opposing everything and endless protests. I want some of the things he is for to come about, and hope the dems will work with him on those. Others, like the Wall, are IMO just dumb. Wrong solution to a real problem. The immigration ban rollout was a disaster, reminiscent of the Obamacare rollout disaster. The process was flawed. Doesn't mean the goal was flawed. But the attitude seems to be to oppose everything, period. Because, you know, it's Trump.
I expect any day now to hear that a well placed source tells us Trump has a banana with his breakfast, fruit imported from Panama, and so by golly, he is is a lying hypocrite. maybe we could even get a SNL skit about it. Crowds of people (taking off from work, presumably) marching with signs showing bananas and Trump. LIAR!!! And then trashing the streets and burning a trashcan or two and throwing bananas at people. I wonder what they want, too.
Rather than just complaining and making fun, what can be done to make the best out of this situation? We are in the boat together, aren't we? I would rather see somebody take up an oar instead of just rocking the boat.
So it is a real question: what do you want to see happen? The next month, the next year, whenever.

Responding to the portions that I italicized.

My position is slightly different. I like his tax proposals. I hate his trade proposals. I hate his immigration proposals. I generally like his cabinet nominees. Hillary was probably my favorite democrat in the field. Trump was perhaps my least favorite republican, if not he was close. I took some of those "Whom do You Agree With?" online polls during the election, and neither Trump nor Hillary ever got above 20%.

As for what I want to see, I have laid that out in great detail several times and see no need to do it again. Can we get there with Trump? I doubt it, but who knows? I will support anyone who gets us there.

I agree with what appears to be your observation that there seem to be a lot of people who viscerally hate everything Trump, regardless of the merits of the specific idea. I have seen the same things with republicans' visceral hatred of all things Clinton.

I tried to be fair to Clinton. I had no problem with his extramarital activiites until he lied under oath about them. Then my problem with Clinton was the perjury, not the activities.

As for Clinton's policies, I was happy to see his healthcare initiative fail, and I think hindsight has borne out that that was good thing. But I was also happy when he bombed the milk parlor (before we knew it was milk parlor, of course) because I was glad he had stood up and defended America.

There were lots of things I didn't like about Bush 41, Clinton, Bush 43, and Obama, but I could always find something to support them on, or at least give it a try. With some of them, it was easier than with others. But I never was, and never saw, the kind of opposition that i see now. This is just visceral hatred. I hope we are not in for four years of this. It is basically low level civil war.

It seems a lot of the opposition is because he is not doing the same old things in the same old way. I find that odd because that is precisely what he promised and precisely what he was elected for.

(02-10-2017 08:27 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(02-10-2017 06:36 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(02-10-2017 02:00 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(02-09-2017 06:40 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(02-09-2017 05:40 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  JAAO, RL15:
What do you suggest be done?

Not sure why you're asking me. I posted about how Trump was navigating the ethical implications of having a foreign leader pay him by gifting the stay to Abe and Abe having his staff stay off site.
If Trump refuses to divest his interests, then that is one way he can get around those issues.

You two clearly don't like Trump or anybody around him. Instead of just calling attention to whatever you think is wrong, which seems to be everything, what would you like to see happen? Impeachment AND removal? A rerun of the election? A coup? sudden death?
short of those things, we have four years to go. What, if any, parts of his programs would you like to see enacted? If there are none, do you feel like it is the duty of the Democrats to stop everything they can?
I like his tax proposals. I like some of his trade proposals, dislike others. I like some of his cabinet choices, dislike others. I hate the Wall.
What do you like?
Trump was never my first choice among the Republicans. he wasn't even ahead of Jim Webb, ASAIWC. Nobody on either side of the aisle liked the candidates from either side of the aisle that I liked, so I didn't get my way either. But I did like him better than Hillary. I liked everybody that announced in either party better than Hillary, so that was a low bar, and he barely cleared it, but he did. Now the election is over, and I don't see the point of opposing everything and endless protests. I want some of the things he is for to come about, and hope the dems will work with him on those. Others, like the Wall, are IMO just dumb. Wrong solution to a real problem. The immigration ban rollout was a disaster, reminiscent of the Obamacare rollout disaster. The process was flawed. Doesn't mean the goal was flawed. But the attitude seems to be to oppose everything, period. Because, you know, it's Trump.
I expect any day now to hear that a well placed source tells us Trump has a banana with his breakfast, fruit imported from Panama, and so by golly, he is is a lying hypocrite. maybe we could even get a SNL skit about it. Crowds of people (taking off from work, presumably) marching with signs showing bananas and Trump. LIAR!!! And then trashing the streets and burning a trashcan or two and throwing bananas at people. I wonder what they want, too.
Rather than just complaining and making fun, what can be done to make the best out of this situation? We are in the boat together, aren't we? I would rather see somebody take up an oar instead of just rocking the boat.
So it is a real question: what do you want to see happen? The next month, the next year, whenever.

Responding to the portions that I italicized.

My position is slightly different. I like his tax proposals. I hate his trade proposals. I hate his immigration proposals. I generally like his cabinet nominees. Hillary was probably my favorite democrat in the field. Trump was perhaps my least favorite republican, if not he was close. I took some of those "Whom do You Agree With?" online polls during the election, and neither Trump nor Hillary ever got above 20%.

As for what I want to see, I have laid that out in great detail several times and see no need to do it again. Can we get there with Trump? I doubt it, but who knows? I will support anyone who gets us there.

I agree with what appears to be your observation that there seem to be a lot of people who viscerally hate everything Trump, regardless of the merits of the specific idea. I have seen the same things with republicans' visceral hatred of all things Clinton.

I tried to be fair to Clinton. I had no problem with his extramarital activiites until he lied under oath about them. Then my problem with Clinton was the perjury, not the activities.

As for Clinton's policies, I was happy to see his healthcare initiative fail, and I think hindsight has borne out that that was good thing. But I was also happy when he bombed the milk parlor (before we knew it was milk parlor, of course) because I was glad he had stood up and defended America.

There were lots of things I didn't like about Bush 41, Clinton, Bush 43, and Obama, but I could always find something to support them on, or at least give it a try. With some of them, it was easier than with others. But I never was, and never saw, the kind of opposition that i see now. This is just visceral hatred. I hope we are not in for four years of this. It is basically low level civil war.

It seems a lot of the opposition is because he is not doing the same old things in the same old way. I find that odd because that is precisely what he promised and precisely what he was elected for.

But OO, that is precisely why a majority of voters didn't vote for him. It wasn't like when Obama was elected people who disagreed with his policies or characteristics stopped criticizing those things.

I mean, I can find posts where people complained about the things Obama did that the campaigned on...

What I want (and somewhat expect) is for him to follow Sarah Palin and decide that being a celebrity is a lot more fun than being a working politician.

I also want to know if he is hundreds of millions of dollars in debt to Russian banks and investors (and foreign parties in general) and, if so,
how that could have occurred without Putin's knowledge and acquiescence?

(02-10-2017 08:27 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(02-10-2017 06:36 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(02-10-2017 02:00 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(02-09-2017 06:40 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(02-09-2017 05:40 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  JAAO, RL15:
What do you suggest be done?

Not sure why you're asking me. I posted about how Trump was navigating the ethical implications of having a foreign leader pay him by gifting the stay to Abe and Abe having his staff stay off site.
If Trump refuses to divest his interests, then that is one way he can get around those issues.

You two clearly don't like Trump or anybody around him. Instead of just calling attention to whatever you think is wrong, which seems to be everything, what would you like to see happen? Impeachment AND removal? A rerun of the election? A coup? sudden death?
short of those things, we have four years to go. What, if any, parts of his programs would you like to see enacted? If there are none, do you feel like it is the duty of the Democrats to stop everything they can?
I like his tax proposals. I like some of his trade proposals, dislike others. I like some of his cabinet choices, dislike others. I hate the Wall.
What do you like?
Trump was never my first choice among the Republicans. he wasn't even ahead of Jim Webb, ASAIWC. Nobody on either side of the aisle liked the candidates from either side of the aisle that I liked, so I didn't get my way either. But I did like him better than Hillary. I liked everybody that announced in either party better than Hillary, so that was a low bar, and he barely cleared it, but he did. Now the election is over, and I don't see the point of opposing everything and endless protests. I want some of the things he is for to come about, and hope the dems will work with him on those. Others, like the Wall, are IMO just dumb. Wrong solution to a real problem. The immigration ban rollout was a disaster, reminiscent of the Obamacare rollout disaster. The process was flawed. Doesn't mean the goal was flawed. But the attitude seems to be to oppose everything, period. Because, you know, it's Trump.
I expect any day now to hear that a well placed source tells us Trump has a banana with his breakfast, fruit imported from Panama, and so by golly, he is is a lying hypocrite. maybe we could even get a SNL skit about it. Crowds of people (taking off from work, presumably) marching with signs showing bananas and Trump. LIAR!!! And then trashing the streets and burning a trashcan or two and throwing bananas at people. I wonder what they want, too.
Rather than just complaining and making fun, what can be done to make the best out of this situation? We are in the boat together, aren't we? I would rather see somebody take up an oar instead of just rocking the boat.
So it is a real question: what do you want to see happen? The next month, the next year, whenever.

Responding to the portions that I italicized.

My position is slightly different. I like his tax proposals. I hate his trade proposals. I hate his immigration proposals. I generally like his cabinet nominees. Hillary was probably my favorite democrat in the field. Trump was perhaps my least favorite republican, if not he was close. I took some of those "Whom do You Agree With?" online polls during the election, and neither Trump nor Hillary ever got above 20%.

As for what I want to see, I have laid that out in great detail several times and see no need to do it again. Can we get there with Trump? I doubt it, but who knows? I will support anyone who gets us there.

I agree with what appears to be your observation that there seem to be a lot of people who viscerally hate everything Trump, regardless of the merits of the specific idea. I have seen the same things with republicans' visceral hatred of all things Clinton.

I tried to be fair to Clinton. I had no problem with his extramarital activiites until he lied under oath about them. Then my problem with Clinton was the perjury, not the activities.

As for Clinton's policies, I was happy to see his healthcare initiative fail, and I think hindsight has borne out that that was good thing. But I was also happy when he bombed the milk parlor (before we knew it was milk parlor, of course) because I was glad he had stood up and defended America.

There were lots of things I didn't like about Bush 41, Clinton, Bush 43, and Obama, but I could always find something to support them on, or at least give it a try. With some of them, it was easier than with others. But I never was, and never saw, the kind of opposition that i see now. This is just visceral hatred. I hope we are not in for four years of this. It is basically low level civil war.

It seems a lot of the opposition is because he is not doing the same old things in the same old way. I find that odd because that is precisely what he promised and precisely what he was elected for.

The visceral hatred for Baby Bush ran deep -- not surprising given the recount brouhaha of 2000.

There was a certain visceral hatred of Obama, but nowhere near the amount for Shrub. Most conservatives/libertarians did have at least one or two issues where they could say they supported the President or his policies, at the very worst. But some did harbor a pathological hatred of Obama.

The visceral hatred for Trump and anything Trump related is off the charts.

My call is the election of 2000 created a rift that will not be healed in my lifetime. That is the event that called into being the sharp practice of not identifying by issues, but by affiliation (blindly or not).

The amount of conservatives/libertarians that knee-jerk anything progressive as "socialist" between pre-2000 and now has skyrocketed in my personal experience, as has the galvanic progressive response of "racism, sexism, homophobism" to anything that doesnt to the line there.

Just speaking from a non-rigorous subjective observations here, so please feel free to criticize.

Kudos to you to bringing actual issues to the front again.

edited to add:

Will have to give kudos to Trump for one (two, depends on how you count it) things. He singlehandedly drove a stake into the Bush Family dynasty, and single handedly (and almost concurrently) drove a stake into a putative Clinton dynasty. I really need to give the Donald kudos for that (those).


edited to add:

I blame Ann Richards for it all.

She went off after Papa Bush in an out of the ordinary (for the time) way at the Democratic Convention.
Shrub always remembered that, so deliberately set out to topple Ann (which he did)
That toppling eventually propelled Shrub to the White House.
That White House directly engendered the nation to elect Obama.
Obama set the dinner plate for Trump to be elected.

So its *all* Anne's fault..... thank you Anne!!

(btw said with humor and sarcasm intended, if it was not readily apparent.....)

"There was a certain visceral hatred of Obama, but nowhere near the amount for Shrub."

Likewise, based on my subjective, non-rigorous observations:

(02-10-2017 10:00 AM)tanqtonic Wrote:  

(02-10-2017 08:27 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(02-10-2017 06:36 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(02-10-2017 02:00 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(02-09-2017 06:40 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  Not sure why you're asking me. I posted about how Trump was navigating the ethical implications of having a foreign leader pay him by gifting the stay to Abe and Abe having his staff stay off site.
If Trump refuses to divest his interests, then that is one way he can get around those issues.

You two clearly don't like Trump or anybody around him. Instead of just calling attention to whatever you think is wrong, which seems to be everything, what would you like to see happen? Impeachment AND removal? A rerun of the election? A coup? sudden death?
short of those things, we have four years to go. What, if any, parts of his programs would you like to see enacted? If there are none, do you feel like it is the duty of the Democrats to stop everything they can?
I like his tax proposals. I like some of his trade proposals, dislike others. I like some of his cabinet choices, dislike others. I hate the Wall.
What do you like?
Trump was never my first choice among the Republicans. he wasn't even ahead of Jim Webb, ASAIWC. Nobody on either side of the aisle liked the candidates from either side of the aisle that I liked, so I didn't get my way either. But I did like him better than Hillary. I liked everybody that announced in either party better than Hillary, so that was a low bar, and he barely cleared it, but he did. Now the election is over, and I don't see the point of opposing everything and endless protests. I want some of the things he is for to come about, and hope the dems will work with him on those. Others, like the Wall, are IMO just dumb. Wrong solution to a real problem. The immigration ban rollout was a disaster, reminiscent of the Obamacare rollout disaster. The process was flawed. Doesn't mean the goal was flawed. But the attitude seems to be to oppose everything, period. Because, you know, it's Trump.
I expect any day now to hear that a well placed source tells us Trump has a banana with his breakfast, fruit imported from Panama, and so by golly, he is is a lying hypocrite. maybe we could even get a SNL skit about it. Crowds of people (taking off from work, presumably) marching with signs showing bananas and Trump. LIAR!!! And then trashing the streets and burning a trashcan or two and throwing bananas at people. I wonder what they want, too.
Rather than just complaining and making fun, what can be done to make the best out of this situation? We are in the boat together, aren't we? I would rather see somebody take up an oar instead of just rocking the boat.
So it is a real question: what do you want to see happen? The next month, the next year, whenever.

Responding to the portions that I italicized.

My position is slightly different. I like his tax proposals. I hate his trade proposals. I hate his immigration proposals. I generally like his cabinet nominees. Hillary was probably my favorite democrat in the field. Trump was perhaps my least favorite republican, if not he was close. I took some of those "Whom do You Agree With?" online polls during the election, and neither Trump nor Hillary ever got above 20%.

As for what I want to see, I have laid that out in great detail several times and see no need to do it again. Can we get there with Trump? I doubt it, but who knows? I will support anyone who gets us there.

I agree with what appears to be your observation that there seem to be a lot of people who viscerally hate everything Trump, regardless of the merits of the specific idea. I have seen the same things with republicans' visceral hatred of all things Clinton.

I tried to be fair to Clinton. I had no problem with his extramarital activiites until he lied under oath about them. Then my problem with Clinton was the perjury, not the activities.

As for Clinton's policies, I was happy to see his healthcare initiative fail, and I think hindsight has borne out that that was good thing. But I was also happy when he bombed the milk parlor (before we knew it was milk parlor, of course) because I was glad he had stood up and defended America.

There were lots of things I didn't like about Bush 41, Clinton, Bush 43, and Obama, but I could always find something to support them on, or at least give it a try. With some of them, it was easier than with others. But I never was, and never saw, the kind of opposition that i see now. This is just visceral hatred. I hope we are not in for four years of this. It is basically low level civil war.

It seems a lot of the opposition is because he is not doing the same old things in the same old way. I find that odd because that is precisely what he promised and precisely what he was elected for.

The visceral hatred for Baby Bush ran deep -- not surprising given the recount brouhaha of 2000.

There was a certain visceral hatred of Obama, but nowhere near the amount for Shrub. Most conservatives/libertarians did have at least one or two issues where they could say they supported the President or his policies, at the very worst. But some did harbor a pathological hatred of Obama.

The visceral hatred for Trump and anything Trump related is off the charts.

My call is the election of 2000 created a rift that will not be healed in my lifetime. That is the event that called into being the sharp practice of not identifying by issues, but by affiliation (blindly or not).

The amount of conservatives/libertarians that knee-jerk anything progressive as "socialist" between pre-2000 and now has skyrocketed in my personal experience, as has the galvanic progressive response of "racism, sexism, homophobism" to anything that doesnt to the line there.

Just speaking from a non-rigorous subjective observations here, so please feel free to criticize.

Kudos to you to bringing actual issues to the front again.

I think you make a good point about the negative feedback loop of looping all liberalism in with socialism, and same for racism, et. al. with conservatism.

Regarding the visceral response to Trump, it doesn't surprise me. The same thing would have happened if Clinton had won. And I say that not to say the other side is just as bad, but because we had two historically bad candidates. So not only did people of their party not really like the candidate, but that meant the opponents really didn't like them. I mean, during the primaries people were chanting "Lock Her Up" at rallies and there was violence at some Trump rallies during protests.

This was the logical result of a bitter election between two bad candidates.

(02-10-2017 10:25 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  I think you make a good point about the negative feedback loop of looping all liberalism in with socialism, and same for racism, et. al. with conservatism.

Hate to be a nitpick, but the proper mathematical terminology is a positive feedback loop. A negative feedback loop detracts from the input, eventually settling to a steady state less than the original signal (most typically a zero output).

A positive feedback loop leads to larger and larger output.

Washington, D.C. -- Today, Congressman Jerrold Nadler (D-NY), senior Member of the House Judiciary Committee, introduced a Resolution of Inquiry directing the Department of Justice to provide the House of Representatives with any and all information relevant to an inquiry into President Trump and his associates’ conflicts of interest, ethical violations—including the Emoluments Clause—and Russia ties. If the House Judiciary Committee does not schedule the resolution for a Markup within 14 legislative days, it becomes a privileged resolution and can be brought to the floor in front of the full House for a vote.

http://nadler.house.gov/press-release/co...-conflicts

(02-10-2017 10:41 AM)tanqtonic Wrote:  

(02-10-2017 10:25 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  I think you make a good point about the negative feedback loop of looping all liberalism in with socialism, and same for racism, et. al. with conservatism.

Hate to be a nitpick, but the proper mathematical terminology is a positive feedback loop. A negative feedback loop detracts from the input, eventually settling to a steady state less than the original signal (most typically a zero output).

A positive feedback loop leads to larger and larger output.

It was a good nitpick. I just hate to call something like that positive.

In all fairness, *this* thread, at least going by the title, is not about policy, it's about Trump himself -- his character, ethics, modus operandi, conflicts of interest, etc. These are very real issues and concerns. If one voted for Trump, one needs to either do the heavy lifting of defending him against the charges brought on those scores, or concede the points, but it's not fair IMO to change the subject to "what is it about his policies that you don't like?"

And yes, some of the opposition to Trump is reflexive (as it is with any president of either party) but to dismiss it as mostly visceral hatred ignores the obvious truth that he has done and continues to do things to bring the bulk of his problems on himself.

I continue to believe, as I predicted the day after the election, that he will ultimately be impeached. Frankly, if you like his policies, you might want to hope for this outcome because he is too flawed a vessel to accomplish much of anything.

(02-10-2017 11:18 AM)illiniowl Wrote:  In all fairness, *this* thread, at least going by the title, is not about policy, it's about Trump himself -- his character, ethics, modus operandi, conflicts of interest, etc. These are very real issues and concerns. If one voted for Trump, one needs to either do the heavy lifting of defending him against the charges brought on those scores, or concede the points, but it's not fair IMO to change the subject to "what is it about his policies that you don't like?"

And yes, some of the opposition to Trump is reflexive (as it is with any president of either party) but to dismiss it as mostly visceral hatred ignores the obvious truth that he has done and continues to do things to bring the bulk of his problems on himself.

I continue to believe, as I predicted the day after the election, that he will ultimately be impeached. Frankly, if you like his policies, you might want to hope for this outcome because he is too flawed a vessel to accomplish much of anything.

I didn't vote for him, so no heavy lifting for me.

You believe he will be impeached. do you want that, or not want it?

This visceral hatred did not arise spontaneously in response to any thing he did. It was there on the first day, first hour, first minute, and has nothing to do with his policies. A lot of people just hate Trump, and nothing he does or says will change that.

what I see is a lot of people speaking and acting in ways they condemned in other people over the last couple of decades.

We got him now, so I am ready to see what, if anything, he can do if not trashed before he fairly starts.

(02-10-2017 12:56 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(02-10-2017 11:18 AM)illiniowl Wrote:  In all fairness, *this* thread, at least going by the title, is not about policy, it's about Trump himself -- his character, ethics, modus operandi, conflicts of interest, etc. These are very real issues and concerns. If one voted for Trump, one needs to either do the heavy lifting of defending him against the charges brought on those scores, or concede the points, but it's not fair IMO to change the subject to "what is it about his policies that you don't like?"

And yes, some of the opposition to Trump is reflexive (as it is with any president of either party) but to dismiss it as mostly visceral hatred ignores the obvious truth that he has done and continues to do things to bring the bulk of his problems on himself.

I continue to believe, as I predicted the day after the election, that he will ultimately be impeached. Frankly, if you like his policies, you might want to hope for this outcome because he is too flawed a vessel to accomplish much of anything.

I didn't vote for him, so no heavy lifting for me.

You believe he will be impeached. do you want that, or not want it?

This visceral hatred did not arise spontaneously in response to any thing he did. It was there on the first day, first hour, first minute, and has nothing to do with his policies. A lot of people just hate Trump, and nothing he does or says will change that.

what I see is a lot of people speaking and acting in ways they condemned in other people over the last couple of decades.

We got him now, so I am ready to see what, if anything, he can do if not trashed before he fairly starts.

You're right that the hatred did not arise spontaneously but you're wrong that it is not connected to his actions. The hate you speak of was cultivated during the campaign as he repeatedly demonstrated that he was unfit to lead the country in any way shape or form. Do I need to list again all of the repugnant things he did on the campaign trail?

You can try and boil this down to the simple talking point of "people hate him because he is a republican," but you'll fail. During the campaign you already saw signs of the level of vitriol he cultivated from those who opposed his views and character, and that wasn't 100% because of what side he was on. You sure as heck did not see the same level of push back in '08 or '12 during the election.

After all, this is Donald Trump we're talking about - far fewer people hated him prior to him wading into politics. Trump the businessman and Apprentice creator had his follies (see Central Park 5) but he had far fewer and was primarily viewed as a whacky reality TV star who had little influence on the every day lives of regular Americans. Then, once he entered the campaign, he began exhibiting characteristics that were down-right shocking and unbelievable to a lot folks, and so much so that they felt the need to push back.

The current pushback is partly politics related (see: cabinet nominations, very akin to early Tea Party protests), however, the Woman's March would not have occurred had Kasich been elected. The Woman's March was pretty much born the day the tapes from Access Hollywood were leaked where Trump stated he could just grab women by the p***y.

I think you're right that no matter what, some people would not change their stance on Trump, regardless of what he said or did (same as many Obama critics). However, I think a lot of the middle of the road people, people like my father who voted Democrat for the first time in his life, explicitly because of Trump's actions during the campaign, would be more than willing to stop marveling in complete stupor at the incompetencies of the Trump administration and stop harping on them if Trump stopped acting like a child and acted like the POTUS.

(02-10-2017 01:16 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(02-10-2017 12:56 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(02-10-2017 11:18 AM)illiniowl Wrote:  In all fairness, *this* thread, at least going by the title, is not about policy, it's about Trump himself -- his character, ethics, modus operandi, conflicts of interest, etc. These are very real issues and concerns. If one voted for Trump, one needs to either do the heavy lifting of defending him against the charges brought on those scores, or concede the points, but it's not fair IMO to change the subject to "what is it about his policies that you don't like?"

And yes, some of the opposition to Trump is reflexive (as it is with any president of either party) but to dismiss it as mostly visceral hatred ignores the obvious truth that he has done and continues to do things to bring the bulk of his problems on himself.

I continue to believe, as I predicted the day after the election, that he will ultimately be impeached. Frankly, if you like his policies, you might want to hope for this outcome because he is too flawed a vessel to accomplish much of anything.

I didn't vote for him, so no heavy lifting for me.

You believe he will be impeached. do you want that, or not want it?

This visceral hatred did not arise spontaneously in response to any thing he did. It was there on the first day, first hour, first minute, and has nothing to do with his policies. A lot of people just hate Trump, and nothing he does or says will change that.

what I see is a lot of people speaking and acting in ways they condemned in other people over the last couple of decades.

We got him now, so I am ready to see what, if anything, he can do if not trashed before he fairly starts.

You're right that the hatred did not arise spontaneously but you're wrong that it is not connected to his actions. The hate you speak of was cultivated during the campaign as he repeatedly demonstrated that he was unfit to lead the country in any way shape or form. Do I need to list again all of the repugnant things he did on the campaign trail?

You can try and boil this down to the simple talking point of "people hate him because he is a republican," but you'll fail. During the campaign you already saw signs of the level of vitriol he cultivated from those who opposed his views and character, and that wasn't 100% because of what side he was on. You sure as heck did not see the same level of push back in '08 or '12 during the election.

After all, this is Donald Trump we're talking about - far fewer people hated him prior to him wading into politics. Trump the businessman and Apprentice creator had his follies (see Central Park 5) but he had far fewer and was primarily viewed as a whacky reality TV star who had little influence on the every day lives of regular Americans. Then, once he entered the campaign, he began exhibiting characteristics that were down-right shocking and unbelievable to a lot folks, and so much so that they felt the need to push back.

The current pushback is partly politics related (see: cabinet nominations, very akin to early Tea Party protests), however, the Woman's March would not have occurred had Kasich been elected. The Woman's March was pretty much born the day the tapes from Access Hollywood were leaked where Trump stated he could just grab women by the p***y.

I think you're right that no matter what, some people would not change their stance on Trump, regardless of what he said or did (same as many Obama critics). However, I think a lot of the middle of the road people, people like my father who voted Democrat for the first time in his life, explicitly because of Trump's actions during the campaign, would be more than willing to stop marveling in complete stupor at the incompetencies of the Trump administration and stop harping on them if Trump stopped acting like a child and acted like the POTUS.

Whoa, there, cowboy. I know all the things that he did and said during the campaign. My GF is an avid Trump hater. It is not "just" because he is a Republican, although there are certainly some for whom that is enough. He is not a Republican by many measures, anyway, just in name. But it is time to let go of things he said and did ten months ago, or5 15 years ago. He is President, and I for one, a nonsupporter, would be interested to see what could happen if he is allowed to do his work, the work he was elected to do. Nobody, not Obama, not Bush, nobody, has faced this high a level of hostility so early and from so many. This tidal wave of hostility and obstructionism is going to damage more than him - it will damage us, the whole country. Let's not cut our own throat in an effort to get even with him for being an ass.

As Owl 69+ and I have indicated, we both have some things we would like to see him succeed at, others, not so much. Is there any thing you would like to see him succeed at? One thing?

One thing he has already succeeded at is finally bringing change to Washington. A lot of what people don't like, is this change. It may not be good change, or at least not all good change, but D.C. and our system will never be the same. And that gives me some hope, as i have not been happy with the status quo. Not a fan of business as usual. So finally, eight years after it was promised, and with a different messenger, we finally get some hope and change. I am curious to see what the new Washington looks like, and works like, and I don't want the change to be stillborn and us stuffed back into the old ways. So I hope everybody will just give it six months, give him enough rope, and see if he does some good, or hangs himself. Let's have the trial first, then the execution.

JMHO.

That's what I would like to see happen. What would you like to see happen?