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georgewebb Offline
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Post: #341
RE: Trump Administration
(01-31-2017 10:11 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  
(01-31-2017 09:37 AM)georgewebb Wrote:  
(01-31-2017 07:33 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  What is hilariously ironic about this, is that the current AG nominee questioned Yates during her confirmation about whether or not she would stand up to Obama and say no if he asked her to do something illegal. She responded that the AG's responsibility was to uphold the law and Constitution.

I can't wait to see how Sessions responds to questions about this, because they will come and he will have to figure out how to say he thinks it is OK for his potential future boss to fire him because he disagrees with Trump - the very thing Sessions wanted Yates to do in case Obama went full dictator as he and the rest of the Reps were worried he would do.

http://edition.cnn.com/2017/01/31/politi...d=33958539


This shouldn't be hard at all. Sessions can simply say: "Of course the President can fire me. Like any Cabinet member, I would serve at the pleasure of the President. In fulfilling my office, I do not intend to act against my own considered judgment, but if the President's judgment differs from mine, he can certainly dismiss me. He has the right to do so at any time, for any reason or no reason at all."

It is perfectly consistent to say that (1) an AG should be willing to be defy the President, and (2) the President has every right to fire him or her.

What exactly is "hilariously ironic"?

I agree it should not be hard at all for Sessions to answer the question, and answer it just how you stated. However, I do not have a lot of faith that this will be what happens, and would love to be proven wrong.

The irony is that Trump does not take dissent well (see Yates firing and the subsequent statement released), and yet Trump has nominated an AG who believes (rightfully) that it is the AG's duty to stand up to the POTUS when they understand a law to violate the Constitution. Yet, when that happened to this president, that AG was fired because they stood up to the POTUS.

I think that Sessions was in the right with his line of questioning, but I was not expecting, in the slightest, to find out that line of questioning existed after news of Yates firing.

There is no irony in the belief system or understanding of how an AG should operate, it is in the players involved and the situation that has unfurled. Maybe coincidental is a better word?

Good points. And come to think of it, irony is probably as good a word as any. I interpreted "hilariously ironic" as an allegation of hypocrisy, which is not what you actually said.

As for Yates, it is not entirely clear what her basis for not defending the order really was. In her press release [https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/01/30/us/document-Letter-From-Sally-Yates.html?_r=0] announcing that she would not defend it, she did not say that her considered judgment is that the order is unconstitutional, or violates an existing statute (and around the country, legal opinion on those questions seems to be mixed). The character string "constitution" does not appear anywhere in the document. She did say that she was "not convinced that the Executive Order is lawful", but without naming any particular law that it might conflict with. Rather, she emphasized that the "policy choice embodied" in the order is not "wise or just" or, alternatively, does not comport with "justice and ... what is right". So her stance seems somewhere between "I believe this order is patently illegal" and "I just don't agree with it."
(This post was last modified: 01-31-2017 10:39 AM by georgewebb.)
01-31-2017 10:31 AM
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Rick Gerlach Offline
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Post: #342
RE: Trump Administration
(01-31-2017 10:31 AM)georgewebb Wrote:  
(01-31-2017 10:11 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  
(01-31-2017 09:37 AM)georgewebb Wrote:  
(01-31-2017 07:33 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  What is hilariously ironic about this, is that the current AG nominee questioned Yates during her confirmation about whether or not she would stand up to Obama and say no if he asked her to do something illegal. She responded that the AG's responsibility was to uphold the law and Constitution.

I can't wait to see how Sessions responds to questions about this, because they will come and he will have to figure out how to say he thinks it is OK for his potential future boss to fire him because he disagrees with Trump - the very thing Sessions wanted Yates to do in case Obama went full dictator as he and the rest of the Reps were worried he would do.

http://edition.cnn.com/2017/01/31/politi...d=33958539


This shouldn't be hard at all. Sessions can simply say: "Of course the President can fire me. Like any Cabinet member, I would serve at the pleasure of the President. In fulfilling my office, I do not intend to act against my own considered judgment, but if the President's judgment differs from mine, he can certainly dismiss me. He has the right to do so at any time, for any reason or no reason at all."

It is perfectly consistent to say that (1) an AG should be willing to be defy the President, and (2) the President has every right to fire him or her.

What exactly is "hilariously ironic"?

I agree it should not be hard at all for Sessions to answer the question, and answer it just how you stated. However, I do not have a lot of faith that this will be what happens, and would love to be proven wrong.

The irony is that Trump does not take dissent well (see Yates firing and the subsequent statement released), and yet Trump has nominated an AG who believes (rightfully) that it is the AG's duty to stand up to the POTUS when they understand a law to violate the Constitution. Yet, when that happened to this president, that AG was fired because they stood up to the POTUS.

I think that Sessions was in the right with his line of questioning, but I was not expecting, in the slightest, to find out that line of questioning existed after news of Yates firing.

There is no irony in the belief system or understanding of how an AG should operate, it is in the players involved and the situation that has unfurled. Maybe coincidental is a better word?

Good points. And come to think of it, irony is probably as good a word as any. I interpreted "hilariously ironic" as an allegation of hypocrisy, which is not what you actually said.

As for Yates, it is not entirely clear what her basis for not defending the order really was. In her press release [https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/01/30/us/document-Letter-From-Sally-Yates.html?_r=0] announcing that she would not defend it, she did not say that her considered judgment is that the order is unconstitutional, or violates an existing statute (and around the country, legal opinion on those questions seems to be mixed). The character string "constitution" does not appear anywhere in the document. She did say that she was "not convinced that the Executive Order is lawful", but without naming any particular law that it might conflict with. Rather, she emphasized that the "policy choice embodied" in the order is not "wise or just" or, alternatively, does not comport with "justice and ... what is right". So her stance seems somewhere between "I believe this order is patently illegal" and "I just don't agree with it."

From commentary on CNN, gleaned while I exercised last night, the order itself in its entirety is not unconstitutional, although there may be portions of it, or applications that are.

In her response, it was clear she disagreed with the decision to issue the order and that the implication that it would violate her own beliefs to enforce it.

The suggested course of action, then, might have been to take her objections to either Priebus or directly to Trump (if that were possible, who knows?) and if they could not provide a satisfactory response, then she could've offered her resignation.

Instead, she effectively made a political statement and publically defied her boss.

I don't agree with the majority of actions Trump is taking. As noted before, didn't vote for him and do not believe him to be qualified for the office he holds.

Having said that, while the optics are horrible (pretty much everything that's happening meets that criteria), I don't know that firing someone who publically defies their boss should ever be unexpected or unjustified.

As George points out, she didn't expressly state the order was unconstitutional, and the commentary I heard last night did not offer that the order itself was unconstitutional.

There are a variety of ways to make a principled stand on an issue.

From my perspective, her choice (in terms of her job) appeared to be to metaphorically douse herself in gasoline and light a match.

If that's not what she wanted to happen, there were definitely other avenues she could have taken and held on to her principles.
01-31-2017 12:03 PM
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JSA Offline
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Post: #343
RE: Trump Administration
(01-31-2017 12:03 PM)Rick Gerlach Wrote:  
(01-31-2017 10:31 AM)georgewebb Wrote:  
(01-31-2017 10:11 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  
(01-31-2017 09:37 AM)georgewebb Wrote:  
(01-31-2017 07:33 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  What is hilariously ironic about this, is that the current AG nominee questioned Yates during her confirmation about whether or not she would stand up to Obama and say no if he asked her to do something illegal. She responded that the AG's responsibility was to uphold the law and Constitution.

I can't wait to see how Sessions responds to questions about this, because they will come and he will have to figure out how to say he thinks it is OK for his potential future boss to fire him because he disagrees with Trump - the very thing Sessions wanted Yates to do in case Obama went full dictator as he and the rest of the Reps were worried he would do.

http://edition.cnn.com/2017/01/31/politi...d=33958539


This shouldn't be hard at all. Sessions can simply say: "Of course the President can fire me. Like any Cabinet member, I would serve at the pleasure of the President. In fulfilling my office, I do not intend to act against my own considered judgment, but if the President's judgment differs from mine, he can certainly dismiss me. He has the right to do so at any time, for any reason or no reason at all."

It is perfectly consistent to say that (1) an AG should be willing to be defy the President, and (2) the President has every right to fire him or her.

What exactly is "hilariously ironic"?

I agree it should not be hard at all for Sessions to answer the question, and answer it just how you stated. However, I do not have a lot of faith that this will be what happens, and would love to be proven wrong.

The irony is that Trump does not take dissent well (see Yates firing and the subsequent statement released), and yet Trump has nominated an AG who believes (rightfully) that it is the AG's duty to stand up to the POTUS when they understand a law to violate the Constitution. Yet, when that happened to this president, that AG was fired because they stood up to the POTUS.

I think that Sessions was in the right with his line of questioning, but I was not expecting, in the slightest, to find out that line of questioning existed after news of Yates firing.

There is no irony in the belief system or understanding of how an AG should operate, it is in the players involved and the situation that has unfurled. Maybe coincidental is a better word?

Good points. And come to think of it, irony is probably as good a word as any. I interpreted "hilariously ironic" as an allegation of hypocrisy, which is not what you actually said.

As for Yates, it is not entirely clear what her basis for not defending the order really was. In her press release [https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/01/30/us/document-Letter-From-Sally-Yates.html?_r=0] announcing that she would not defend it, she did not say that her considered judgment is that the order is unconstitutional, or violates an existing statute (and around the country, legal opinion on those questions seems to be mixed). The character string "constitution" does not appear anywhere in the document. She did say that she was "not convinced that the Executive Order is lawful", but without naming any particular law that it might conflict with. Rather, she emphasized that the "policy choice embodied" in the order is not "wise or just" or, alternatively, does not comport with "justice and ... what is right". So her stance seems somewhere between "I believe this order is patently illegal" and "I just don't agree with it."

From commentary on CNN, gleaned while I exercised last night, the order itself in its entirety is not unconstitutional, although there may be portions of it, or applications that are.

In her response, it was clear she disagreed with the decision to issue the order and that the implication that it would violate her own beliefs to enforce it.

The suggested course of action, then, might have been to take her objections to either Priebus or directly to Trump (if that were possible, who knows?) and if they could not provide a satisfactory response, then she could've offered her resignation.

Instead, she effectively made a political statement and publically defied her boss.

I don't agree with the majority of actions Trump is taking. As noted before, didn't vote for him and do not believe him to be qualified for the office he holds.

Having said that, while the optics are horrible (pretty much everything that's happening meets that criteria), I don't know that firing someone who publically defies their boss should ever be unexpected or unjustified.

As George points out, she didn't expressly state the order was unconstitutional, and the commentary I heard last night did not offer that the order itself was unconstitutional.

There are a variety of ways to make a principled stand on an issue.

From my perspective, her choice (in terms of her job) appeared to be to metaphorically douse herself in gasoline and light a match.

If that's not what she wanted to happen, there were definitely other avenues she could have taken and held on to her principles.

How much longer would she have been on job anyway?

How does this compare/contrast to officials who refused to issue marriage licenses to gay couples because doing so conflicted with their beliefs?
01-31-2017 12:13 PM
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OptimisticOwl Offline
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Post: #344
RE: Trump Administration
(01-31-2017 10:01 AM)JSA Wrote:  
(01-31-2017 01:40 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  
(01-30-2017 10:01 PM)ausowl Wrote:  
(01-30-2017 05:43 PM)JSA Wrote:  
(01-30-2017 03:46 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  I wouldn't call it bipartisanship, but both the pro and anti Trump crowds borrow from both traditional political parties.

I think Trump essentially ran as an independent via the GOP.
I wonder how much the McCains and Grahams of the party are willing to tolerate.

The question re McCain and Graham might be answered tomorrow. Interested to watch the vote on Sessions. Question is how much will Ryan and McConnell continue to swallow before 2018 midterms, entirely dependent on how this chaos is polling in red and purple states.

I think most congressional Republicans will work with Trump, under the theory that he is the lesser evil vs. the Democrats. Also, if Trump's popularity with the people rises over the next six months, watch the bandwagon fill up. If he brings jobs back, better to be with him than against him.



I can see how his actions so far will solidify his support among the base. And you're probably right that Congressional Republicans will go along for now.

But how is any of this going to expand his support beyond his base (assuming he cares)?

I think the key(s) will be be visible improvements in job availability and wages. in September 2018 and September 2020. If American feel they are better off with him there, they will support him, and his base will grow. If not, they will see it as broken promises and failure, and turn against him. If Democrats want to defeat him, they need to make sure he does not accomplish any economic betterment of the nation. they need to be able to point to his failure, and if they can't, they are toast. So the watchword is to obstruct.

His actions so far, other than economic, will have little effect on his popularity. A man who gets his job back or gets a raise and see those as because of Trump is not going to care a lot about some Syrian who got locked out for a day two or four years ago. The Dems hung their hat on trying to make him unpalatable, and that failed, so I think their best bet is to make him fail. Then they can say "I told you so", run Booker, and clean up.
01-31-2017 12:15 PM
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RiceLad15 Offline
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Post: #345
RE: Trump Administration
(01-31-2017 12:15 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  
(01-31-2017 10:01 AM)JSA Wrote:  
(01-31-2017 01:40 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  
(01-30-2017 10:01 PM)ausowl Wrote:  
(01-30-2017 05:43 PM)JSA Wrote:  I think Trump essentially ran as an independent via the GOP.
I wonder how much the McCains and Grahams of the party are willing to tolerate.

The question re McCain and Graham might be answered tomorrow. Interested to watch the vote on Sessions. Question is how much will Ryan and McConnell continue to swallow before 2018 midterms, entirely dependent on how this chaos is polling in red and purple states.

I think most congressional Republicans will work with Trump, under the theory that he is the lesser evil vs. the Democrats. Also, if Trump's popularity with the people rises over the next six months, watch the bandwagon fill up. If he brings jobs back, better to be with him than against him.



I can see how his actions so far will solidify his support among the base. And you're probably right that Congressional Republicans will go along for now.

But how is any of this going to expand his support beyond his base (assuming he cares)?

I think the key(s) will be be visible improvements in job availability and wages. in September 2018 and September 2020. If American feel they are better off with him there, they will support him, and his base will grow. If not, they will see it as broken promises and failure, and turn against him. If Democrats want to defeat him, they need to make sure he does not accomplish any economic betterment of the nation. they need to be able to point to his failure, and if they can't, they are toast. So the watchword is to obstruct.

His actions so far, other than economic, will have little effect on his popularity. A man who gets his job back or gets a raise and see those as because of Trump is not going to care a lot about some Syrian who got locked out for a day two or four years ago. The Dems hung their hat on trying to make him unpalatable, and that failed, so I think their best bet is to make him fail. Then they can say "I told you so", run Booker, and clean up.

I disagree to the bold.

In reality, all the Dems need to do is get their participation levels up to win back seats in Congress and take back the WH. The level of Republican votes this year mirrored that of years past. The level of Democratic votes lagged behind year's pasts. And so far, Trump is doing a great job organizing liberals.

I don't think the Dems need to obstruct economic legislation by Trump, and if they do, that will be used against them. I mean, how can a Dem run on obstructing a sweeping infrastructure bill?

The Dems tried to hang their hat on him being unpalatable, you're right on that. But a lot of Trump supporters waved that off and said that he didn't mean what he was saying, and he wouldn't do X, Y, or Z because he wasn't serious. Trump is now proving a lot of those voters to be fools and you can bet that the same arguments Dems made in the general election will be more convincing in 2018 and 2020 if Trump keeps going down the path he is going down.
01-31-2017 12:43 PM
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Rick Gerlach Offline
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Post: #346
RE: Trump Administration
(01-31-2017 12:13 PM)JSA Wrote:  
(01-31-2017 12:03 PM)Rick Gerlach Wrote:  
(01-31-2017 10:31 AM)georgewebb Wrote:  
(01-31-2017 10:11 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  
(01-31-2017 09:37 AM)georgewebb Wrote:  This shouldn't be hard at all. Sessions can simply say: "Of course the President can fire me. Like any Cabinet member, I would serve at the pleasure of the President. In fulfilling my office, I do not intend to act against my own considered judgment, but if the President's judgment differs from mine, he can certainly dismiss me. He has the right to do so at any time, for any reason or no reason at all."

It is perfectly consistent to say that (1) an AG should be willing to be defy the President, and (2) the President has every right to fire him or her.

What exactly is "hilariously ironic"?

I agree it should not be hard at all for Sessions to answer the question, and answer it just how you stated. However, I do not have a lot of faith that this will be what happens, and would love to be proven wrong.

The irony is that Trump does not take dissent well (see Yates firing and the subsequent statement released), and yet Trump has nominated an AG who believes (rightfully) that it is the AG's duty to stand up to the POTUS when they understand a law to violate the Constitution. Yet, when that happened to this president, that AG was fired because they stood up to the POTUS.

I think that Sessions was in the right with his line of questioning, but I was not expecting, in the slightest, to find out that line of questioning existed after news of Yates firing.

There is no irony in the belief system or understanding of how an AG should operate, it is in the players involved and the situation that has unfurled. Maybe coincidental is a better word?

Good points. And come to think of it, irony is probably as good a word as any. I interpreted "hilariously ironic" as an allegation of hypocrisy, which is not what you actually said.

As for Yates, it is not entirely clear what her basis for not defending the order really was. In her press release [https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/01/30/us/document-Letter-From-Sally-Yates.html?_r=0] announcing that she would not defend it, she did not say that her considered judgment is that the order is unconstitutional, or violates an existing statute (and around the country, legal opinion on those questions seems to be mixed). The character string "constitution" does not appear anywhere in the document. She did say that she was "not convinced that the Executive Order is lawful", but without naming any particular law that it might conflict with. Rather, she emphasized that the "policy choice embodied" in the order is not "wise or just" or, alternatively, does not comport with "justice and ... what is right". So her stance seems somewhere between "I believe this order is patently illegal" and "I just don't agree with it."

From commentary on CNN, gleaned while I exercised last night, the order itself in its entirety is not unconstitutional, although there may be portions of it, or applications that are.

In her response, it was clear she disagreed with the decision to issue the order and that the implication that it would violate her own beliefs to enforce it.

The suggested course of action, then, might have been to take her objections to either Priebus or directly to Trump (if that were possible, who knows?) and if they could not provide a satisfactory response, then she could've offered her resignation.

Instead, she effectively made a political statement and publically defied her boss.

I don't agree with the majority of actions Trump is taking. As noted before, didn't vote for him and do not believe him to be qualified for the office he holds.

Having said that, while the optics are horrible (pretty much everything that's happening meets that criteria), I don't know that firing someone who publically defies their boss should ever be unexpected or unjustified.

As George points out, she didn't expressly state the order was unconstitutional, and the commentary I heard last night did not offer that the order itself was unconstitutional.

There are a variety of ways to make a principled stand on an issue.

From my perspective, her choice (in terms of her job) appeared to be to metaphorically douse herself in gasoline and light a match.

If that's not what she wanted to happen, there were definitely other avenues she could have taken and held on to her principles.

How much longer would she have been on job anyway?

How does this compare/contrast to officials who refused to issue marriage licenses to gay couples because doing so conflicted with their beliefs?

Regardless of how much time is left on a job, resignation is an option, as would be having a dialogue with your boss, or at least an attempted dialogue (even through the Chief of Staff).

I'm not objecting to her making a choice and following through on it.

My objection is to everyone acting as if a President is "out of bounds" for firing a cabinet member who refused to support his agenda based on disagreement (absent clear evidence that the agenda items were unconstitutional). Understand that I do not agree with the majority of actions taken by the president to date, and don't agree with the unilateral nature of his methodology at all.

As to the second part:

1. County clerks are usually elected, not appointed. It is my understanding that her 'bosses' are the voters in her county.
2. Obviously the stage is much bigger and the stakes are much higher.

Neither situation gets ignored. If the AG didn't understand what she was doing and what the repercussions would be, she is dumber than a post.

The media would be better served commenting on the specifics of the Executive Order, and which aspects of implementation may be legally suspect . . . . (this may be happening, I am not a TV junkie. But I see mostly emotional reporting, highlighting the 'human impact' side of the argument.)

versus making a martyr out of an exiting official who chose her path forward knowing full well what would happen.
01-31-2017 01:21 PM
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RiceLad15 Offline
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Post: #347
RE: Trump Administration
(01-31-2017 01:21 PM)Rick Gerlach Wrote:  
(01-31-2017 12:13 PM)JSA Wrote:  
(01-31-2017 12:03 PM)Rick Gerlach Wrote:  
(01-31-2017 10:31 AM)georgewebb Wrote:  
(01-31-2017 10:11 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  I agree it should not be hard at all for Sessions to answer the question, and answer it just how you stated. However, I do not have a lot of faith that this will be what happens, and would love to be proven wrong.

The irony is that Trump does not take dissent well (see Yates firing and the subsequent statement released), and yet Trump has nominated an AG who believes (rightfully) that it is the AG's duty to stand up to the POTUS when they understand a law to violate the Constitution. Yet, when that happened to this president, that AG was fired because they stood up to the POTUS.

I think that Sessions was in the right with his line of questioning, but I was not expecting, in the slightest, to find out that line of questioning existed after news of Yates firing.

There is no irony in the belief system or understanding of how an AG should operate, it is in the players involved and the situation that has unfurled. Maybe coincidental is a better word?

Good points. And come to think of it, irony is probably as good a word as any. I interpreted "hilariously ironic" as an allegation of hypocrisy, which is not what you actually said.

As for Yates, it is not entirely clear what her basis for not defending the order really was. In her press release [https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/01/30/us/document-Letter-From-Sally-Yates.html?_r=0] announcing that she would not defend it, she did not say that her considered judgment is that the order is unconstitutional, or violates an existing statute (and around the country, legal opinion on those questions seems to be mixed). The character string "constitution" does not appear anywhere in the document. She did say that she was "not convinced that the Executive Order is lawful", but without naming any particular law that it might conflict with. Rather, she emphasized that the "policy choice embodied" in the order is not "wise or just" or, alternatively, does not comport with "justice and ... what is right". So her stance seems somewhere between "I believe this order is patently illegal" and "I just don't agree with it."

From commentary on CNN, gleaned while I exercised last night, the order itself in its entirety is not unconstitutional, although there may be portions of it, or applications that are.

In her response, it was clear she disagreed with the decision to issue the order and that the implication that it would violate her own beliefs to enforce it.

The suggested course of action, then, might have been to take her objections to either Priebus or directly to Trump (if that were possible, who knows?) and if they could not provide a satisfactory response, then she could've offered her resignation.

Instead, she effectively made a political statement and publically defied her boss.

I don't agree with the majority of actions Trump is taking. As noted before, didn't vote for him and do not believe him to be qualified for the office he holds.

Having said that, while the optics are horrible (pretty much everything that's happening meets that criteria), I don't know that firing someone who publically defies their boss should ever be unexpected or unjustified.

As George points out, she didn't expressly state the order was unconstitutional, and the commentary I heard last night did not offer that the order itself was unconstitutional.

There are a variety of ways to make a principled stand on an issue.

From my perspective, her choice (in terms of her job) appeared to be to metaphorically douse herself in gasoline and light a match.

If that's not what she wanted to happen, there were definitely other avenues she could have taken and held on to her principles.

How much longer would she have been on job anyway?

How does this compare/contrast to officials who refused to issue marriage licenses to gay couples because doing so conflicted with their beliefs?

Regardless of how much time is left on a job, resignation is an option, as would be having a dialogue with your boss, or at least an attempted dialogue (even through the Chief of Staff).

I'm not objecting to her making a choice and following through on it.

My objection is to everyone acting as if a President is "out of bounds" for firing a cabinet member who refused to support his agenda based on disagreement (absent clear evidence that the agenda items were unconstitutional). Understand that I do not agree with the majority of actions taken by the president to date, and don't agree with the unilateral nature of his methodology at all.

As to the second part:

1. County clerks are usually elected, not appointed. It is my understanding that her 'bosses' are the voters in her county.
2. Obviously the stage is much bigger and the stakes are much higher.

Neither situation gets ignored. If the AG didn't understand what she was doing and what the repercussions would be, she is dumber than a post.

The media would be better served commenting on the specifics of the Executive Order, and which aspects of implementation may be legally suspect . . . . (this may be happening, I am not a TV junkie. But I see mostly emotional reporting, highlighting the 'human impact' side of the argument.)

versus making a martyr out of an exiting official who chose her path forward knowing full well what would happen.

I agree with a lot of your post and assume that Yates knew what she was getting into when she made the decision to not enforce the EO. However, Trump played perfectly into her hand by writing a horrible statement (have you read it yet?) and firing her pretty much on the spot, and that to me is the biggest problem (after the potential unconstitutional nature of the Christian refugee preference and the EO itself).

The reason I agree with most of your statement is that Trump should have done the same thing you're asking of Yates with the EO. He did not have it reviewed by the governmental agencies who would best be able to guide him on the legality of the implementation. In fact, the Secretary of the DHS was not briefed on the entirety of the order until the moment the POTUS was signing the EO.

However, Trump is not creating an environment where even internal dissent is tolerated, which is bad. Anyone who knows how to run anything effectively understands that discouraging or disallowing dissent will lead to failure. Spicer was quoted as telling people within State to either get on board or get out when he was asked about an internal memo that was circulating around State that was a dissent to the EO. This is concerning because this memo was meant for the dissent channel within State that was set up (after Vietnam I believe) specifically so those with expertise could provide push back and an argument against proposed or executed actions.

Here's some info on that: http://www.cnn.com/2017/01/30/politics/c...sent-memo/
01-31-2017 01:57 PM
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Rick Gerlach Offline
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Post: #348
RE: Trump Administration
(01-31-2017 01:57 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  
(01-31-2017 01:21 PM)Rick Gerlach Wrote:  
(01-31-2017 12:13 PM)JSA Wrote:  
(01-31-2017 12:03 PM)Rick Gerlach Wrote:  
(01-31-2017 10:31 AM)georgewebb Wrote:  Good points. And come to think of it, irony is probably as good a word as any. I interpreted "hilariously ironic" as an allegation of hypocrisy, which is not what you actually said.

As for Yates, it is not entirely clear what her basis for not defending the order really was. In her press release [https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/01/30/us/document-Letter-From-Sally-Yates.html?_r=0] announcing that she would not defend it, she did not say that her considered judgment is that the order is unconstitutional, or violates an existing statute (and around the country, legal opinion on those questions seems to be mixed). The character string "constitution" does not appear anywhere in the document. She did say that she was "not convinced that the Executive Order is lawful", but without naming any particular law that it might conflict with. Rather, she emphasized that the "policy choice embodied" in the order is not "wise or just" or, alternatively, does not comport with "justice and ... what is right". So her stance seems somewhere between "I believe this order is patently illegal" and "I just don't agree with it."

From commentary on CNN, gleaned while I exercised last night, the order itself in its entirety is not unconstitutional, although there may be portions of it, or applications that are.

In her response, it was clear she disagreed with the decision to issue the order and that the implication that it would violate her own beliefs to enforce it.

The suggested course of action, then, might have been to take her objections to either Priebus or directly to Trump (if that were possible, who knows?) and if they could not provide a satisfactory response, then she could've offered her resignation.

Instead, she effectively made a political statement and publically defied her boss.

I don't agree with the majority of actions Trump is taking. As noted before, didn't vote for him and do not believe him to be qualified for the office he holds.

Having said that, while the optics are horrible (pretty much everything that's happening meets that criteria), I don't know that firing someone who publically defies their boss should ever be unexpected or unjustified.

As George points out, she didn't expressly state the order was unconstitutional, and the commentary I heard last night did not offer that the order itself was unconstitutional.

There are a variety of ways to make a principled stand on an issue.

From my perspective, her choice (in terms of her job) appeared to be to metaphorically douse herself in gasoline and light a match.

If that's not what she wanted to happen, there were definitely other avenues she could have taken and held on to her principles.

How much longer would she have been on job anyway?

How does this compare/contrast to officials who refused to issue marriage licenses to gay couples because doing so conflicted with their beliefs?

Regardless of how much time is left on a job, resignation is an option, as would be having a dialogue with your boss, or at least an attempted dialogue (even through the Chief of Staff).

I'm not objecting to her making a choice and following through on it.

My objection is to everyone acting as if a President is "out of bounds" for firing a cabinet member who refused to support his agenda based on disagreement (absent clear evidence that the agenda items were unconstitutional). Understand that I do not agree with the majority of actions taken by the president to date, and don't agree with the unilateral nature of his methodology at all.

As to the second part:

1. County clerks are usually elected, not appointed. It is my understanding that her 'bosses' are the voters in her county.
2. Obviously the stage is much bigger and the stakes are much higher.

Neither situation gets ignored. If the AG didn't understand what she was doing and what the repercussions would be, she is dumber than a post.

The media would be better served commenting on the specifics of the Executive Order, and which aspects of implementation may be legally suspect . . . . (this may be happening, I am not a TV junkie. But I see mostly emotional reporting, highlighting the 'human impact' side of the argument.)

versus making a martyr out of an exiting official who chose her path forward knowing full well what would happen.

I agree with a lot of your post and assume that Yates knew what she was getting into when she made the decision to not enforce the EO. However, Trump played perfectly into her hand by writing a horrible statement (have you read it yet?) and firing her pretty much on the spot, and that to me is the biggest problem (after the potential unconstitutional nature of the Christian refugee preference and the EO itself).

The reason I agree with most of your statement is that Trump should have done the same thing you're asking of Yates with the EO. He did not have it reviewed by the governmental agencies who would best be able to guide him on the legality of the implementation. In fact, the Secretary of the DHS was not briefed on the entirety of the order until the moment the POTUS was signing the EO.

However, Trump is not creating an environment where even internal dissent is tolerated, which is bad. Anyone who knows how to run anything effectively understands that discouraging or disallowing dissent will lead to failure. Spicer was quoted as telling people within State to either get on board or get out when he was asked about an internal memo that was circulating around State that was a dissent to the EO. This is concerning because this memo was meant for the dissent channel within State that was set up (after Vietnam I believe) specifically so those with expertise could provide push back and an argument against proposed or executed actions.

Here's some info on that: http://www.cnn.com/2017/01/30/politics/c...sent-memo/

I am in complete agreement that the unilateral 'approach' to these Executive Orders is foolish and sets things up for potential failure at best and disastrous failure at worst.

Failure to consult with his staff (and I mean beyond his inner circle, to include the AG, DHS and anyone else who rightfully should be included in planning and implementation) is a prime example of his lack of qualification to hold this office.

My concern on the other hand, is that his (many, many) mis-steps are resulting in a media mentality where everything that occurs is considered further evidence of the poor judgement and nothing that occurs is laid at anyone's doorstep but Trump's.

i.e., that the interim AG is a martyr who should never have been expected to be fired for the actions she took.

The media hate this guy, and are not only prepared for rightful conflict, but help the conflicts grow by how they choose to frame everything.

Case in point. Everyone is correct in pointing out that Obama's inauguration in 2009 (I think it's reported as 2008 in some circles, but it was obviously January also) was much better attended than Trump's this year.

For context, however, the media COULD point out, that the inauguration of the first African-American president was historic and was likely the most highly attended in the previous 50 years, if not the most attended ever.

It would've been entirely appropriate, and more relevant, to compare inaugural attendance in 2001 (GWB's 1st), or 1993 (WJClinton's 1st), or 1989 or 1981 to what Trump drew this year.

There is plenty to be concerned/worried about. The media seems intent to pick fights, or to frame things without context to make things even worse than they actually are.

I get the sense that there is some thinking out there that "Because this guy is at best a train wreck waiting to happen, or at worst, we think he is not 'legitimate', therefore, nothing we can say or write about the situation is unjustified or unfair.'

The perception that the Administration is adopting a "if yer not with us, yer agin' us" is troubling and worthy of concern, attention and vigilance.

That same perception is NOT justification for the media to adopt a similar mentality in reverse. And I definitely get the feeling that's also going on.
01-31-2017 02:36 PM
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RiceLad15 Offline
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Post: #349
RE: Trump Administration
(01-31-2017 02:36 PM)Rick Gerlach Wrote:  
(01-31-2017 01:57 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  
(01-31-2017 01:21 PM)Rick Gerlach Wrote:  
(01-31-2017 12:13 PM)JSA Wrote:  
(01-31-2017 12:03 PM)Rick Gerlach Wrote:  From commentary on CNN, gleaned while I exercised last night, the order itself in its entirety is not unconstitutional, although there may be portions of it, or applications that are.

In her response, it was clear she disagreed with the decision to issue the order and that the implication that it would violate her own beliefs to enforce it.

The suggested course of action, then, might have been to take her objections to either Priebus or directly to Trump (if that were possible, who knows?) and if they could not provide a satisfactory response, then she could've offered her resignation.

Instead, she effectively made a political statement and publically defied her boss.

I don't agree with the majority of actions Trump is taking. As noted before, didn't vote for him and do not believe him to be qualified for the office he holds.

Having said that, while the optics are horrible (pretty much everything that's happening meets that criteria), I don't know that firing someone who publically defies their boss should ever be unexpected or unjustified.

As George points out, she didn't expressly state the order was unconstitutional, and the commentary I heard last night did not offer that the order itself was unconstitutional.

There are a variety of ways to make a principled stand on an issue.

From my perspective, her choice (in terms of her job) appeared to be to metaphorically douse herself in gasoline and light a match.

If that's not what she wanted to happen, there were definitely other avenues she could have taken and held on to her principles.

How much longer would she have been on job anyway?

How does this compare/contrast to officials who refused to issue marriage licenses to gay couples because doing so conflicted with their beliefs?

Regardless of how much time is left on a job, resignation is an option, as would be having a dialogue with your boss, or at least an attempted dialogue (even through the Chief of Staff).

I'm not objecting to her making a choice and following through on it.

My objection is to everyone acting as if a President is "out of bounds" for firing a cabinet member who refused to support his agenda based on disagreement (absent clear evidence that the agenda items were unconstitutional). Understand that I do not agree with the majority of actions taken by the president to date, and don't agree with the unilateral nature of his methodology at all.

As to the second part:

1. County clerks are usually elected, not appointed. It is my understanding that her 'bosses' are the voters in her county.
2. Obviously the stage is much bigger and the stakes are much higher.

Neither situation gets ignored. If the AG didn't understand what she was doing and what the repercussions would be, she is dumber than a post.

The media would be better served commenting on the specifics of the Executive Order, and which aspects of implementation may be legally suspect . . . . (this may be happening, I am not a TV junkie. But I see mostly emotional reporting, highlighting the 'human impact' side of the argument.)

versus making a martyr out of an exiting official who chose her path forward knowing full well what would happen.

I agree with a lot of your post and assume that Yates knew what she was getting into when she made the decision to not enforce the EO. However, Trump played perfectly into her hand by writing a horrible statement (have you read it yet?) and firing her pretty much on the spot, and that to me is the biggest problem (after the potential unconstitutional nature of the Christian refugee preference and the EO itself).

The reason I agree with most of your statement is that Trump should have done the same thing you're asking of Yates with the EO. He did not have it reviewed by the governmental agencies who would best be able to guide him on the legality of the implementation. In fact, the Secretary of the DHS was not briefed on the entirety of the order until the moment the POTUS was signing the EO.

However, Trump is not creating an environment where even internal dissent is tolerated, which is bad. Anyone who knows how to run anything effectively understands that discouraging or disallowing dissent will lead to failure. Spicer was quoted as telling people within State to either get on board or get out when he was asked about an internal memo that was circulating around State that was a dissent to the EO. This is concerning because this memo was meant for the dissent channel within State that was set up (after Vietnam I believe) specifically so those with expertise could provide push back and an argument against proposed or executed actions.

Here's some info on that: http://www.cnn.com/2017/01/30/politics/c...sent-memo/

I am in complete agreement that the unilateral 'approach' to these Executive Orders is foolish and sets things up for potential failure at best and disastrous failure at worst.

Failure to consult with his staff (and I mean beyond his inner circle, to include the AG, DHS and anyone else who rightfully should be included in planning and implementation) is a prime example of his lack of qualification to hold this office.

My concern on the other hand, is that his (many, many) mis-steps are resulting in a media mentality where everything that occurs is considered further evidence of the poor judgement and nothing that occurs is laid at anyone's doorstep but Trump's.

i.e., that the interim AG is a martyr who should never have been expected to be fired for the actions she took.

The media hate this guy, and are not only prepared for rightful conflict, but help the conflicts grow by how they choose to frame everything.

Case in point. Everyone is correct in pointing out that Obama's inauguration in 2009 (I think it's reported as 2008 in some circles, but it was obviously January also) was much better attended than Trump's this year.

For context, however, the media COULD point out, that the inauguration of the first African-American president was historic and was likely the most highly attended in the previous 50 years, if not the most attended ever.

It would've been entirely appropriate, and more relevant, to compare inaugural attendance in 2001 (GWB's 1st), or 1993 (WJClinton's 1st), or 1989 or 1981 to what Trump drew this year.

There is plenty to be concerned/worried about. The media seems intent to pick fights, or to frame things without context to make things even worse than they actually are.

I get the sense that there is some thinking out there that "Because this guy is at best a train wreck waiting to happen, or at worst, we think he is not 'legitimate', therefore, nothing we can say or write about the situation is unjustified or unfair.'

The perception that the Administration is adopting a "if yer not with us, yer agin' us" is troubling and worthy of concern, attention and vigilance.

That same perception is NOT justification for the media to adopt a similar mentality in reverse. And I definitely get the feeling that's also going on.

I agree that 2009 was a bad year to pick because of its historical context - I think 2013 would have been much better. But then again, I don't know how bad it really was since Trump kept putting things into the "greatest of all time" context.

I do agree that the media needs to find a way to come off as having that mentality, but they shouldn't ease up on the level of accountability they are trying to hold the administration to.
01-31-2017 02:46 PM
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Rick Gerlach Offline
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Post: #350
RE: Trump Administration
The media has the 'level of accountability' requirement down pat.

They need to adopt a framework of impartiality within that level of accountability.

Can't recall if this was radio or TV, but heard someone explain, today or last night, correctly, that the AG and the remainder of the President's staff in the Executive Branch, were not really considered part of the "Checks and Balances" set up by the Constitution in establishing a tripartite government.

The commentator did not frame the Checks and Balances strictly in terms of the Judicial and Legislative Branches, but stated in effect that

"Congress, the Courts and the Press" were set up as the Checks and Balances to Executive Power and each other. (my capital P, but seemingly implied).

While I agree that a free press, guaranteed by the Bill of Rights, is an essential part of our democracy and an important part of the limitations of governmental power contemplated by the Founding Fathers, I found it telling that a member of the Press has equated their role and function as constitutionally equal to the Supreme Court and Congress.

A free press is important, no doubt. But the way they parse it has as much self-importance and delusions of grandeur that they've projected on to our current President.

Metaphorically, I would like the press to have the alleged impartiality of the Supreme Court, rather than the partisanship that is a hallmark of the Executive and Legislative branches.

(01-31-2017 02:46 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  
(01-31-2017 02:36 PM)Rick Gerlach Wrote:  
(01-31-2017 01:57 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  
(01-31-2017 01:21 PM)Rick Gerlach Wrote:  
(01-31-2017 12:13 PM)JSA Wrote:  How much longer would she have been on job anyway?

How does this compare/contrast to officials who refused to issue marriage licenses to gay couples because doing so conflicted with their beliefs?

Regardless of how much time is left on a job, resignation is an option, as would be having a dialogue with your boss, or at least an attempted dialogue (even through the Chief of Staff).

I'm not objecting to her making a choice and following through on it.

My objection is to everyone acting as if a President is "out of bounds" for firing a cabinet member who refused to support his agenda based on disagreement (absent clear evidence that the agenda items were unconstitutional). Understand that I do not agree with the majority of actions taken by the president to date, and don't agree with the unilateral nature of his methodology at all.

As to the second part:

1. County clerks are usually elected, not appointed. It is my understanding that her 'bosses' are the voters in her county.
2. Obviously the stage is much bigger and the stakes are much higher.

Neither situation gets ignored. If the AG didn't understand what she was doing and what the repercussions would be, she is dumber than a post.

The media would be better served commenting on the specifics of the Executive Order, and which aspects of implementation may be legally suspect . . . . (this may be happening, I am not a TV junkie. But I see mostly emotional reporting, highlighting the 'human impact' side of the argument.)

versus making a martyr out of an exiting official who chose her path forward knowing full well what would happen.

I agree with a lot of your post and assume that Yates knew what she was getting into when she made the decision to not enforce the EO. However, Trump played perfectly into her hand by writing a horrible statement (have you read it yet?) and firing her pretty much on the spot, and that to me is the biggest problem (after the potential unconstitutional nature of the Christian refugee preference and the EO itself).

The reason I agree with most of your statement is that Trump should have done the same thing you're asking of Yates with the EO. He did not have it reviewed by the governmental agencies who would best be able to guide him on the legality of the implementation. In fact, the Secretary of the DHS was not briefed on the entirety of the order until the moment the POTUS was signing the EO.

However, Trump is not creating an environment where even internal dissent is tolerated, which is bad. Anyone who knows how to run anything effectively understands that discouraging or disallowing dissent will lead to failure. Spicer was quoted as telling people within State to either get on board or get out when he was asked about an internal memo that was circulating around State that was a dissent to the EO. This is concerning because this memo was meant for the dissent channel within State that was set up (after Vietnam I believe) specifically so those with expertise could provide push back and an argument against proposed or executed actions.

Here's some info on that: http://www.cnn.com/2017/01/30/politics/c...sent-memo/

I am in complete agreement that the unilateral 'approach' to these Executive Orders is foolish and sets things up for potential failure at best and disastrous failure at worst.

Failure to consult with his staff (and I mean beyond his inner circle, to include the AG, DHS and anyone else who rightfully should be included in planning and implementation) is a prime example of his lack of qualification to hold this office.

My concern on the other hand, is that his (many, many) mis-steps are resulting in a media mentality where everything that occurs is considered further evidence of the poor judgement and nothing that occurs is laid at anyone's doorstep but Trump's.

i.e., that the interim AG is a martyr who should never have been expected to be fired for the actions she took.

The media hate this guy, and are not only prepared for rightful conflict, but help the conflicts grow by how they choose to frame everything.

Case in point. Everyone is correct in pointing out that Obama's inauguration in 2009 (I think it's reported as 2008 in some circles, but it was obviously January also) was much better attended than Trump's this year.

For context, however, the media COULD point out, that the inauguration of the first African-American president was historic and was likely the most highly attended in the previous 50 years, if not the most attended ever.

It would've been entirely appropriate, and more relevant, to compare inaugural attendance in 2001 (GWB's 1st), or 1993 (WJClinton's 1st), or 1989 or 1981 to what Trump drew this year.

There is plenty to be concerned/worried about. The media seems intent to pick fights, or to frame things without context to make things even worse than they actually are.

I get the sense that there is some thinking out there that "Because this guy is at best a train wreck waiting to happen, or at worst, we think he is not 'legitimate', therefore, nothing we can say or write about the situation is unjustified or unfair.'

The perception that the Administration is adopting a "if yer not with us, yer agin' us" is troubling and worthy of concern, attention and vigilance.

That same perception is NOT justification for the media to adopt a similar mentality in reverse. And I definitely get the feeling that's also going on.

I agree that 2009 was a bad year to pick because of its historical context - I think 2013 would have been much better. But then again, I don't know how bad it really was since Trump kept putting things into the "greatest of all time" context.

I do agree that the media needs to find a way to come off as having that mentality, but they shouldn't ease up on the level of accountability they are trying to hold the administration to.
01-31-2017 03:57 PM
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Owl 69/70/75 Offline
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Post: #351
RE: Trump Administration
(01-31-2017 03:57 PM)Rick Gerlach Wrote:  Metaphorically, I would like the press to have the alleged impartiality of the Supreme Court, rather than the partisanship that is a hallmark of the Executive and Legislative branches.

I'd just like for the Supreme Court to have the, "alleged impartiality of the Supreme Court."
01-31-2017 06:32 PM
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Post: #352
RE: Trump Administration
(01-31-2017 12:43 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  
(01-31-2017 12:15 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  
(01-31-2017 10:01 AM)JSA Wrote:  
(01-31-2017 01:40 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  
(01-30-2017 10:01 PM)ausowl Wrote:  The question re McCain and Graham might be answered tomorrow. Interested to watch the vote on Sessions. Question is how much will Ryan and McConnell continue to swallow before 2018 midterms, entirely dependent on how this chaos is polling in red and purple states.

I think most congressional Republicans will work with Trump, under the theory that he is the lesser evil vs. the Democrats. Also, if Trump's popularity with the people rises over the next six months, watch the bandwagon fill up. If he brings jobs back, better to be with him than against him.



I can see how his actions so far will solidify his support among the base. And you're probably right that Congressional Republicans will go along for now.

But how is any of this going to expand his support beyond his base (assuming he cares)?

I think the key(s) will be be visible improvements in job availability and wages. in September 2018 and September 2020. If American feel they are better off with him there, they will support him, and his base will grow. If not, they will see it as broken promises and failure, and turn against him. If Democrats want to defeat him, they need to make sure he does not accomplish any economic betterment of the nation. they need to be able to point to his failure, and if they can't, they are toast. So the watchword is to obstruct.

His actions so far, other than economic, will have little effect on his popularity. A man who gets his job back or gets a raise and see those as because of Trump is not going to care a lot about some Syrian who got locked out for a day two or four years ago. The Dems hung their hat on trying to make him unpalatable, and that failed, so I think their best bet is to make him fail. Then they can say "I told you so", run Booker, and clean up.

I disagree to the bold.

In reality, all the Dems need to do is get their participation levels up to win back seats in Congress and take back the WH. The level of Republican votes this year mirrored that of years past. The level of Democratic votes lagged behind year's pasts. And so far, Trump is doing a great job organizing liberals.

I don't think the Dems need to obstruct economic legislation by Trump, and if they do, that will be used against them. I mean, how can a Dem run on obstructing a sweeping infrastructure bill?

The Dems tried to hang their hat on him being unpalatable, you're right on that. But a lot of Trump supporters waved that off and said that he didn't mean what he was saying, and he wouldn't do X, Y, or Z because he wasn't serious. Trump is now proving a lot of those voters to be fools and you can bet that the same arguments Dems made in the general election will be more convincing in 2018 and 2020 if Trump keeps going down the path he is going down.

My opinion, is that doubling down on what didn't fly in 2016 will result in another failure for the Democrats, UNLESS he has also failed to bring jobs and prosperity. The people will forgive a lot of character flaws if there is food on their table and their kid's future looks good. JMHO.

for my part, I didn't like a lot of his policies, I thought he was boorish and crass, still do, and yet now I am hopeful, not that he will suddenly become PC, but that he can bring jobs back and bring us back to a position of preeminence in the world. He wasn't my guy, ever, but I sure hope he succeeds. If he does his job, he can tell all the jokes he wants. He is not my role model. I had one of those decades before I ever heard of Trump.
01-31-2017 06:45 PM
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Post: #353
RE: Trump Administration
(01-31-2017 01:57 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  I agree with a lot of your post and assume that Yates knew what she was getting into when she made the decision to not enforce the EO.

For someone who was going to be out of a job in a matter of days anyway, her decision and accompanying press release were truly a brilliant career move. Last month she was a holdover of a lame duck administration; today she is (in some eyes) a martyr.
01-31-2017 07:01 PM
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RiceLad15 Offline
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Post: #354
RE: Trump Administration
(01-31-2017 06:45 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  
(01-31-2017 12:43 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  
(01-31-2017 12:15 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  
(01-31-2017 10:01 AM)JSA Wrote:  
(01-31-2017 01:40 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  I think most congressional Republicans will work with Trump, under the theory that he is the lesser evil vs. the Democrats. Also, if Trump's popularity with the people rises over the next six months, watch the bandwagon fill up. If he brings jobs back, better to be with him than against him.



I can see how his actions so far will solidify his support among the base. And you're probably right that Congressional Republicans will go along for now.

But how is any of this going to expand his support beyond his base (assuming he cares)?

I think the key(s) will be be visible improvements in job availability and wages. in September 2018 and September 2020. If American feel they are better off with him there, they will support him, and his base will grow. If not, they will see it as broken promises and failure, and turn against him. If Democrats want to defeat him, they need to make sure he does not accomplish any economic betterment of the nation. they need to be able to point to his failure, and if they can't, they are toast. So the watchword is to obstruct.

His actions so far, other than economic, will have little effect on his popularity. A man who gets his job back or gets a raise and see those as because of Trump is not going to care a lot about some Syrian who got locked out for a day two or four years ago. The Dems hung their hat on trying to make him unpalatable, and that failed, so I think their best bet is to make him fail. Then they can say "I told you so", run Booker, and clean up.

I disagree to the bold.

In reality, all the Dems need to do is get their participation levels up to win back seats in Congress and take back the WH. The level of Republican votes this year mirrored that of years past. The level of Democratic votes lagged behind year's pasts. And so far, Trump is doing a great job organizing liberals.

I don't think the Dems need to obstruct economic legislation by Trump, and if they do, that will be used against them. I mean, how can a Dem run on obstructing a sweeping infrastructure bill?

The Dems tried to hang their hat on him being unpalatable, you're right on that. But a lot of Trump supporters waved that off and said that he didn't mean what he was saying, and he wouldn't do X, Y, or Z because he wasn't serious. Trump is now proving a lot of those voters to be fools and you can bet that the same arguments Dems made in the general election will be more convincing in 2018 and 2020 if Trump keeps going down the path he is going down.

My opinion, is that doubling down on what didn't fly in 2016 will result in another failure for the Democrats, UNLESS he has also failed to bring jobs and prosperity. The people will forgive a lot of character flaws if there is food on their table and their kid's future looks good. JMHO.

for my part, I didn't like a lot of his policies, I thought he was boorish and crass, still do, and yet now I am hopeful, not that he will suddenly become PC, but that he can bring jobs back and bring us back to a position of preeminence in the world. He wasn't my guy, ever, but I sure hope he succeeds. If he does his job, he can tell all the jokes he wants. He is not my role model. I had one of those decades before I ever heard of Trump.

Not sure what abut Trump's policies make you think he will bring us back to a position of preeminence in the world. He wants to gut research funding, break most of our relationships with foreign powers, and isolate/turn inward. Those all seem like ways for us to shrink into irrelevance and allow another super power (e.g. China) to take over our roll as the leading country in the world.

I do think that with lower corporate taxes small businesses will do well, but not sure how that helps our global position...
01-31-2017 08:50 PM
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Post: #355
RE: Trump Administration
(01-31-2017 08:50 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  
(01-31-2017 06:45 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  
(01-31-2017 12:43 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  
(01-31-2017 12:15 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  
(01-31-2017 10:01 AM)JSA Wrote:  I can see how his actions so far will solidify his support among the base. And you're probably right that Congressional Republicans will go along for now.

But how is any of this going to expand his support beyond his base (assuming he cares)?

I think the key(s) will be be visible improvements in job availability and wages. in September 2018 and September 2020. If American feel they are better off with him there, they will support him, and his base will grow. If not, they will see it as broken promises and failure, and turn against him. If Democrats want to defeat him, they need to make sure he does not accomplish any economic betterment of the nation. they need to be able to point to his failure, and if they can't, they are toast. So the watchword is to obstruct.

His actions so far, other than economic, will have little effect on his popularity. A man who gets his job back or gets a raise and see those as because of Trump is not going to care a lot about some Syrian who got locked out for a day two or four years ago. The Dems hung their hat on trying to make him unpalatable, and that failed, so I think their best bet is to make him fail. Then they can say "I told you so", run Booker, and clean up.

I disagree to the bold.

In reality, all the Dems need to do is get their participation levels up to win back seats in Congress and take back the WH. The level of Republican votes this year mirrored that of years past. The level of Democratic votes lagged behind year's pasts. And so far, Trump is doing a great job organizing liberals.

I don't think the Dems need to obstruct economic legislation by Trump, and if they do, that will be used against them. I mean, how can a Dem run on obstructing a sweeping infrastructure bill?

The Dems tried to hang their hat on him being unpalatable, you're right on that. But a lot of Trump supporters waved that off and said that he didn't mean what he was saying, and he wouldn't do X, Y, or Z because he wasn't serious. Trump is now proving a lot of those voters to be fools and you can bet that the same arguments Dems made in the general election will be more convincing in 2018 and 2020 if Trump keeps going down the path he is going down.

My opinion, is that doubling down on what didn't fly in 2016 will result in another failure for the Democrats, UNLESS he has also failed to bring jobs and prosperity. The people will forgive a lot of character flaws if there is food on their table and their kid's future looks good. JMHO.

for my part, I didn't like a lot of his policies, I thought he was boorish and crass, still do, and yet now I am hopeful, not that he will suddenly become PC, but that he can bring jobs back and bring us back to a position of preeminence in the world. He wasn't my guy, ever, but I sure hope he succeeds. If he does his job, he can tell all the jokes he wants. He is not my role model. I had one of those decades before I ever heard of Trump.

Not sure what abut Trump's policies make you think he will bring us back to a position of preeminence in the world. He wants to gut research funding, break most of our relationships with foreign powers, and isolate/turn inward. Those all seem like ways for us to shrink into irrelevance and allow another super power (e.g. China) to take over our roll as the leading country in the world.

I do think that with lower corporate taxes small businesses will do well, but not sure how that helps our global position...

I don't know that I would call it policies, but more an attitude. Obama never wanted to confront anybody. He told Putin he woulod be more flexible. His red line in syria turned out to be dotted. He never could pick a side in syria, leaving it to Putin ans ISIS to fill the void. I just want us to be a big dog again, not a whipped cur. But as far as Americans are concerned, I think economics is the main test. Bring back jobs and untaxed profits. Help small business. If we get robust growth and prosperity, a lot of people will not care about the things the Democrats want them to care about.

this will be apparent if it comes about in 2-3 years. Right now, it is just a big maybe.
01-31-2017 11:19 PM
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Post: #356
RE: Trump Administration
He's not technically part of the admin, but Trump nominated "his" Supreme Court nominee Neil Gorsuch. From what I've read he is basically a clone of Scalia, so the horrible Republican obstruction of Obama's replacement nominee works out in the end.

Now we wait and see if Democrats return the favor and try and hold up this nominee. I hope that we do not see a concerted effort due to the obvious hypocrisy of doing so after complaining loudly (and rightfully) about the Republican party's decision to stonewall Garland. At some point one party has to decide to be the bigger person and get over this pissing match that is hamstringing the government and keeping elected officials from doing the job they were elected to do. I hope that the Democrats take a step in that direction here.

However, my hope does leave me wondering. If there is no concerted Democratic opposition to the pick, doesn't it let the Republicans off the hook for such a unprecedented, crass, and obviously partisan obstruction? Does it not, in some way, encourage Mr. Turtle and Co. to continue being partisan bumps on the logs when it doesn't suit their interests?
02-01-2017 09:13 AM
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Post: #357
RE: Trump Administration
(01-31-2017 11:19 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  
(01-31-2017 08:50 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  
(01-31-2017 06:45 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  
(01-31-2017 12:43 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  
(01-31-2017 12:15 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  I think the key(s) will be be visible improvements in job availability and wages. in September 2018 and September 2020. If American feel they are better off with him there, they will support him, and his base will grow. If not, they will see it as broken promises and failure, and turn against him. If Democrats want to defeat him, they need to make sure he does not accomplish any economic betterment of the nation. they need to be able to point to his failure, and if they can't, they are toast. So the watchword is to obstruct.

His actions so far, other than economic, will have little effect on his popularity. A man who gets his job back or gets a raise and see those as because of Trump is not going to care a lot about some Syrian who got locked out for a day two or four years ago. The Dems hung their hat on trying to make him unpalatable, and that failed, so I think their best bet is to make him fail. Then they can say "I told you so", run Booker, and clean up.

I disagree to the bold.

In reality, all the Dems need to do is get their participation levels up to win back seats in Congress and take back the WH. The level of Republican votes this year mirrored that of years past. The level of Democratic votes lagged behind year's pasts. And so far, Trump is doing a great job organizing liberals.

I don't think the Dems need to obstruct economic legislation by Trump, and if they do, that will be used against them. I mean, how can a Dem run on obstructing a sweeping infrastructure bill?

The Dems tried to hang their hat on him being unpalatable, you're right on that. But a lot of Trump supporters waved that off and said that he didn't mean what he was saying, and he wouldn't do X, Y, or Z because he wasn't serious. Trump is now proving a lot of those voters to be fools and you can bet that the same arguments Dems made in the general election will be more convincing in 2018 and 2020 if Trump keeps going down the path he is going down.

My opinion, is that doubling down on what didn't fly in 2016 will result in another failure for the Democrats, UNLESS he has also failed to bring jobs and prosperity. The people will forgive a lot of character flaws if there is food on their table and their kid's future looks good. JMHO.

for my part, I didn't like a lot of his policies, I thought he was boorish and crass, still do, and yet now I am hopeful, not that he will suddenly become PC, but that he can bring jobs back and bring us back to a position of preeminence in the world. He wasn't my guy, ever, but I sure hope he succeeds. If he does his job, he can tell all the jokes he wants. He is not my role model. I had one of those decades before I ever heard of Trump.

Not sure what abut Trump's policies make you think he will bring us back to a position of preeminence in the world. He wants to gut research funding, break most of our relationships with foreign powers, and isolate/turn inward. Those all seem like ways for us to shrink into irrelevance and allow another super power (e.g. China) to take over our roll as the leading country in the world.

I do think that with lower corporate taxes small businesses will do well, but not sure how that helps our global position...

I don't know that I would call it policies, but more an attitude. Obama never wanted to confront anybody. He told Putin he woulod be more flexible. His red line in syria turned out to be dotted. He never could pick a side in syria, leaving it to Putin ans ISIS to fill the void. I just want us to be a big dog again, not a whipped cur. But as far as Americans are concerned, I think economics is the main test. Bring back jobs and untaxed profits. Help small business. If we get robust growth and prosperity, a lot of people will not care about the things the Democrats want them to care about.

this will be apparent if it comes about in 2-3 years. Right now, it is just a big maybe.

I think there are two issues here. Domestic economic policy and international posturing.

With regards to domestic economic policy, Trump hasn't done much to make me think things will turn out bad or good, simply because he hasn't been in office long enough to push through meaningful legislation. However, his talk about his goals (reducing corporate taxes) does make it seem like he could spur economic activity on the home front. But when you couple it with talk that indicates trade wars with major trading partners may be on the horizon, I'm not sure which one wins.

With regards to international posturing, I get the idea of wanting to project ourselves as the big boy on the corner, but I don't know why that is important. While you may not like how Obama postured the US, how other countries viewed him as a leader was generally very positive because of that posturing. For Trump, while he certainly is getting our name out there, I don't think he is projecting the image you want him to project. Right now, we look more like this dog: [Image: JvEaFeo.jpg]
as opposed to this dog: [Image: ?url=http%3A%2F%2Fs3.amazonaws.com%2Fass...062111.jpg]

None of our allies are taking him seriously at the moment, and our potential geopolitical foes (e.g. China) seem to be ramping up their defenses in expectation of a supremely stupid foreign policy decision.
02-01-2017 09:21 AM
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Owl 69/70/75 Offline
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Post: #358
RE: Trump Administration
Received by email from "Geopolitical Futures" <comments@geopoliticalfutures.com>

Friedman's Weekly
Feb. 1, 2017

By George Friedman

Immigration Chaos
As long as illegal immigration is permitted, the foundations of American culture are at risk.

Last week, President Donald Trump temporarily blocked both “immigrants and nonimmigrants” from seven predominantly Muslim countries from entering the United States. From the beginning of his presidential campaign he has spoken at various times and in a variety of ways of taking a step like this. Having done it, the action created uproar in part because it was done without adequate preparation, and in larger part, because it was done at all. The mutual recriminations over this particular act are of little consequence. What is important is to try to understand why the immigration issue is so sensitive. The uproar over Trump’s action is merely one of many to come, which also will be of little consequence.

Trump has pointed to two very different patterns. One is immigration to the U.S. by Muslims. The other is illegal Mexican immigration. Both resonated with Trump’s supporters. It is interesting to consider other immigration patterns that have not become an issue. One is immigration to the U.S. from India. The other is immigration from China and other parts of Asia. Both have been massive movements since about 1970, and both have had substantial social consequences.

Indian migration to the U.S. has been one of the most successful in American history in that it has been among the least disruptive, has generated minimal hostility and has been extraordinarily successful economically. Today, Indian-Americans are the wealthiest single ethnic group in the United States. They are hardly invisible, as they are present in all professions and as corporate executives.

Chinese and East Asian immigration is more complex. Chinese immigrants began coming to the U.S. in the mid-19th century. They came as laborers supplied by Chinese contractors and were crucial in building American railroads alongside – and in competition with – Irish immigrants. The Chinese were exploited and brutalized and didn’t get citizenship. But after the 1970s, their story matched the Indians’ – the Chinese were not quite as wealthy, but they did well.

About 3.7 million people of Indian descent live in the U.S., many of them second-generation immigrants. About 4 million people of Chinese descent live in the U.S., with somewhat more complex backgrounds. There also are 3.3 million Muslims and 35.8 million people of Mexican descent, including an estimated 5.2 million of the 11 million who are in the U.S. illegally, according to Pew Research Center.

If there was a strain of intense, anti-immigrant or racist sentiment in the United States, it would be directed against Indians and Chinese just as much as Muslims and Mexicans. There would also be a persistent strain from previous Irish immigration in the 19th century, and of Italians, Jews and other Eastern and Southern Europeans who flooded into the United States between 1880 and 1920. To the extent that racism exists against any of these groups, the anti-immigration fervor is marginal; century-old immigrant cohorts have become mainstream. They are not the ones marginalized – their detractors are.

It is the example of the Chinese and the Indians that blows up the theory that Americans have an overarching anti-immigrant sensibility that Trump is tapping into. It also raises serious doubts that Trump is anti-immigrant. I have searched and may have missed it, but I didn’t find that Trump made anti-Chinese or anti-Indian statements, as opposed to anti-Muslim and anti-Mexican statements. If it were classic anti-immigrant sentiment, the rage would be against Indian immigrants who have emerged as a powerful and wealthy ethnic group in a startlingly short time. But there is minimally detectable hostility toward them, which means that the immigration situation in the United States is far more complex than it seems.

The issue is not whether Trump and his followers are generally anti-immigrant. The question is why they are so hostile toward Muslims, who roughly total the same number as the Chinese and Indians, and to Mexicans, who vastly outnumber these groups. I wish the explanation were more complex, but it is actually quite simple in both cases.

The United States has been at war with Muslim groups since Sept. 11, 2001. When the U.S. has gone to war with foreign powers, there has been a surge of hostility toward immigrants from that foreign power’s country. During World War I, German immigrants in the United States who still spoke German came under suspicion and were pressured to adopt English. During World War II, Germans who had maintained close and cordial ties to Germany prior to the war were harassed, and in some cases, arrested under suspicion of espionage and subversion. Japanese citizens of the United States were arrested and sent to detention camps out of fear that they might be conducting espionage or sabotage for the Japanese. During the Cold War, post-war émigrés from Soviet satellite nations were distrusted by the FBI, which feared they were sent by the Soviets as spies and saboteurs.

When there is war, there is suspicion of the enemy. When there is suspicion of the enemy, there is fear that émigrés might be in the United States on false pretenses. Historically, émigrés have been caught in the middle to some extent because their loyalty is questioned. In war, there is rage as the casualties mount, particularly if sabotage and terrorism are carried out in the homeland. This is hardly new or difficult to understand. If those of us old enough to recall the terror after 9/11 will do so, we can remember the fear and uncertainty not only about what comes next, but also whether the next terror team already was present in the United States. After 15 years of war and many Americans dead, this has congealed into a framework of distrust that may well go beyond the rational. The detention of the entire Japanese community was not rational. Nor was it something that cannot be understood. It is hard to calibrate what you ought to be afraid of in war, but you know that something dreadful might happen. Are all Muslims warriors against the United States? No. Do you know who is or isn’t? Also no. Wars, therefore, create fears. There is nothing new in the American fear of Muslims in the context of war.

The Mexican situation is different. There was a war, but it was long ago, and fear of war is not the driving issue. Rather, the driving issue is illegal Mexican immigration. There is a great deal of homage paid to the rule of law. Congress passed a law specifying the mechanics of legal migration. Some 5 million Mexicans broke the law. Whether this has harmed the U.S. economy or not, the indifference to enforcing the law by people who are normally most insistent on the rule of law has created a sense of hypocrisy. At the same time that the middle and lower-middle classes feel as though their interests are being ignored, the presentation of illegal aliens as “undocumented immigrants” reveals a linguistic maneuver. The “illegals” are transformed into the merely “undocumented,” implying a minor bureaucratic foul-up.

The anger is not only directed at the Mexicans. It is part of the rage against those living in the bubble, who present themselves as humanitarians, but who will encounter the illegal aliens, if at all, as their servants. And rightly or wrongly, some suspect that open support for breaking the law is designed to bring cheap labor to support the lifestyles of the wealthy at the expense of the declining middle class. The fact that the well-to-do tend to be defenders of illegal aliens while also demanding the rule of law increases suspicions.

There is a somewhat deeper layer. As long as illegal immigration is permitted, the foundations of American culture are at risk. It is not simply immigration, but the illegality that is frightening, because it not only can’t be controlled, but also the law is under attack by those who claim to uphold it. The fear that a person’s livelihood is being undermined and his cultural foundation is being overwhelmed creates deep fear of the intentions of the more powerful.

The issue appears to have little to do with NAFTA and other economic concerns. The U.S. and China have equally intense economic issues, but there is minimal tension over Chinese immigration. The economic and immigration issues seem only tenuously connected.

It is rare that an issue of such emotional impact as Muslims during a war with Muslims, or immigration in violation of the law, would not cause tension. As we saw with President Franklin D. Roosevelt and the Japanese, things that are obvious to those living decades later are not obvious at the time. Indeed, it is a failure of imagination to be unable to empathize with the fear felt after Pearl Harbor. In our time, the failure to empathize comes from those who feel immune to illegal immigration or the 15-year war. It is part of the growing fragmentation of American society that different classes and regions should experience these things so differently, and that each side has so little understanding of the other.

It is the president’s job to bridge the gap. But regardless of his wishes, the president is trapped by the upwelling of feeling on questions of immigration by Muslims at a time of war, or the refusal of government at all levels to enforce the law. But what is not true is that this represents a generalized hostility to immigrants or even racism. If it did, the Indian and the Chinese immigration in recent generations would have encountered a very different greeting. This issue is about two groups. The response may well be extreme and clumsy. But after many years of ignoring the anxiety that both issues generated, or dismissing it as racism, it inevitably ratchets out of control. In fact, neither issue is mysterious, unprecedented or subject to cautious management, given the passions on all sides.

The greatest compliment you can give us is a recommendation to your friends and colleagues. Please feel free to share this piece with anyone you think would enjoy reading it.
(This post was last modified: 02-01-2017 01:01 PM by Owl 69/70/75.)
02-01-2017 09:48 AM
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Post: #359
RE: Trump Administration
(02-01-2017 09:21 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  
(01-31-2017 11:19 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  
(01-31-2017 08:50 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  
(01-31-2017 06:45 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  
(01-31-2017 12:43 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  I disagree to the bold.

In reality, all the Dems need to do is get their participation levels up to win back seats in Congress and take back the WH. The level of Republican votes this year mirrored that of years past. The level of Democratic votes lagged behind year's pasts. And so far, Trump is doing a great job organizing liberals.

I don't think the Dems need to obstruct economic legislation by Trump, and if they do, that will be used against them. I mean, how can a Dem run on obstructing a sweeping infrastructure bill?

The Dems tried to hang their hat on him being unpalatable, you're right on that. But a lot of Trump supporters waved that off and said that he didn't mean what he was saying, and he wouldn't do X, Y, or Z because he wasn't serious. Trump is now proving a lot of those voters to be fools and you can bet that the same arguments Dems made in the general election will be more convincing in 2018 and 2020 if Trump keeps going down the path he is going down.

My opinion, is that doubling down on what didn't fly in 2016 will result in another failure for the Democrats, UNLESS he has also failed to bring jobs and prosperity. The people will forgive a lot of character flaws if there is food on their table and their kid's future looks good. JMHO.

for my part, I didn't like a lot of his policies, I thought he was boorish and crass, still do, and yet now I am hopeful, not that he will suddenly become PC, but that he can bring jobs back and bring us back to a position of preeminence in the world. He wasn't my guy, ever, but I sure hope he succeeds. If he does his job, he can tell all the jokes he wants. He is not my role model. I had one of those decades before I ever heard of Trump.

Not sure what abut Trump's policies make you think he will bring us back to a position of preeminence in the world. He wants to gut research funding, break most of our relationships with foreign powers, and isolate/turn inward. Those all seem like ways for us to shrink into irrelevance and allow another super power (e.g. China) to take over our roll as the leading country in the world.

I do think that with lower corporate taxes small businesses will do well, but not sure how that helps our global position...

I don't know that I would call it policies, but more an attitude. Obama never wanted to confront anybody. He told Putin he woulod be more flexible. His red line in syria turned out to be dotted. He never could pick a side in syria, leaving it to Putin ans ISIS to fill the void. I just want us to be a big dog again, not a whipped cur. But as far as Americans are concerned, I think economics is the main test. Bring back jobs and untaxed profits. Help small business. If we get robust growth and prosperity, a lot of people will not care about the things the Democrats want them to care about.

this will be apparent if it comes about in 2-3 years. Right now, it is just a big maybe.

I think there are two issues here. Domestic economic policy and international posturing.

With regards to domestic economic policy, Trump hasn't done much to make me think things will turn out bad or good, simply because he hasn't been in office long enough to push through meaningful legislation. However, his talk about his goals (reducing corporate taxes) does make it seem like he could spur economic activity on the home front. But when you couple it with talk that indicates trade wars with major trading partners may be on the horizon, I'm not sure which one wins.

With regards to international posturing, I get the idea of wanting to project ourselves as the big boy on the corner, but I don't know why that is important. While you may not like how Obama postured the US, how other countries viewed him as a leader was generally very positive because of that posturing. For Trump, while he certainly is getting our name out there, I don't think he is projecting the image you want him to project. Right now, we look more like this dog: [Image: JvEaFeo.jpg]
as opposed to this dog: [Image: ?url=http%3A%2F%2Fs3.amazonaws.com%2Fass...062111.jpg]

None of our allies are taking him seriously at the moment, and our potential geopolitical foes (e.g. China) seem to be ramping up their defenses in expectation of a supremely stupid foreign policy decision.

I am not a fan of his withdrawing from the TPP or NAFTA, but I think his other tax policies, if the Democrats don't block them, will create enough good will among the american people that they won't care if he makes an off color joke in private. So if the Democrats want to double down on character, fine with me.

On foreign policy, your viewpoint appears to me that showing strength or force of will that may result in conflict is bad, being acquiescent is good. I have not been a fan of Obama's foreign policy, when in my opinion has diminished us in the world's eyes. I am much older than you - my memory goes back to the Truman years. I feel like over the last eight years we have regressed as a world power, and I would like to see that stopped. I want a return to being Israel's ally, and a return to being a foe of Iran. I don't like our friends OR enemies not taking us seriously. I don't want a war, but I also don't want a President who will give up anything and everything to avoid it.

My original thought was that if the president does what it takes to make americans economically happy, little else will matter. A war is one of the things that could change that. But, hey, it's been less than two weeks. Right now we are both just astrologers trying to discern what's in the stars.
02-01-2017 09:57 AM
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Post: #360
RE: Trump Administration
Saw an interesting graphic on a news show yesterday.

CABINET POSITIONS CONFIRMED IN JANUARY AFTER THE INAUGURATION

Trump 3
Obama (2009) 10
Obama (2013) 13
Clinton (1993) 13
02-01-2017 10:00 AM
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