(01-12-2017 06:56 AM)ericsrevenge76 Wrote:  

(01-12-2017 06:44 AM)miko33 Wrote:  Most people are truth seekers. Saying that they intend to embrace ignorance because they really do not want to believe the bible is ludicrous. While I'm sure there are some people like that, most want to get it right. On top of that, why didn't God make the bible easy to understand for all people? Why was the bible written in dead languages and then required to be translated to modern languages in order to be understood by all? Why not beam his message into our heads directly so that we can make a real informed decision without having to pour over texts, studying deeply and praying that we "get it right"?

Christ Himself answered this very question for you 2000 years ago. Its because though people have ears and eyes, they only hear and see what they WANT to hear and see.


John 8:43
Why do you not understand what I say? It is because you cannot bear to hear my word.

Matt 13:13
This is why I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand. In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah: "'You will be ever hearing but never understanding; you will be ever seeing but never perceiving. For the hearts of these people are hardened, and their ears cannot hear, and they have closed their eyes--so their eyes cannot see, and their ears cannot hear, and their hearts cannot understand, and they cannot turn to me and let me heal them.'


Matt 11:25
At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.

That may be pertinent to the people in the middle east circa 30 AD (if you take the bible stories at face value), but what about the people generations past who never saw Jesus in the flesh? If you take the approach that you advocate - distrust all Christian denominations - and all you have is the bible as your guide, then how do you know you chose the correct scriptures to base your worship on? We're not talking about books copied from the absolute original manuscripts. We're talking about translating these books from copies of copies that were copied from other copies. Adding to that, the writings were preserved in a writing style from a culture that is long dead. The messages were written ideally for an audience 2000 years ago.

The reason Christianity exists today is because of the church. Without the church, Christianity dies out. These denominations preserve the faith, and it's ludicrous to think that they do not. You put a premium on the bible in deference to a denomination. I can guarantee you this. A person is much more likely to become a Christian if they only adhere to the messages received in the churches thru participation without any bible study vs a person who never knew a Christian church and had to discover Christianity from the bible alone. Most people today who were not raised in a Christian denomination would reject the bible as myths from a bronze age thru iron age culture.

The denominations you rail against make Christianity possible. The bible is merely an aid to the denominations.

(01-12-2017 07:09 AM)shiftyeagle Wrote:  

(01-12-2017 06:02 AM)ericsrevenge76 Wrote:  

(01-12-2017 04:26 AM)shiftyeagle Wrote:  It's quite funny to talk to folks who think the Bible is intuitive. You can apparently just read it, form your own personal interpretations, and you're all good. You hold the fullness of the Gospel exclusively in your own brain. When you read the last word in Revelation, you are instantly granted more knowledge and theological prowess than 2000 years of Magisterium.

My goodness lol.

oh the irony....

In all the world , its the POPE ALONE who says he has all insight and spiritual understanding over the Apostles, disciples, church fathers, magisterial and is infallible and sits high above all wearing a crown sitting on a literal throne of gold.

Your ignorant misunderstanding of the Papacy is ridiculous. And probably on purpose.

So you honestly believe that 2000 years of magisterium has been developed exclusively by Popes? So St. Augustine, Thomas Aquinas, Jerome, Ignatius of Antioch must've all been Popes.

And you can post a picture of the Pope in a fancy chair all you want. But know (as I'm sure you already do) that the Catholic Church proivdes more charity than every other Christian denomination in the world COMBINED. Not to mention all the Protestant "pastors" that easily clear six-figures per year.

You really don't want to go there. All churches are run by people and are not perfect. Ask the young boys who were in the Boston archdiocese.

(01-12-2017 07:40 AM)shiftyeagle Wrote:  

(01-12-2017 07:28 AM)ericsrevenge76 Wrote:  

(01-12-2017 07:24 AM)shiftyeagle Wrote:  

(01-12-2017 07:16 AM)ericsrevenge76 Wrote:  

(01-12-2017 07:12 AM)shiftyeagle Wrote:  This statement literally takes a giant shiit on Ephesians 4.

What are you saying? Only Catholics go to heaven?

I am saying exactly what St. Paul was saying. The Church was NEVER meant to devolve into this split, splintered mess with thousands of denominations all claiming to hold the fullness of the Gospel.

Also reference Philippians 2.

Well of course it was never meant to splinter into a million denominations, I made the same comment myself earlier in the thread. God knew it would though.

The churches were splintering in the very first few years of the church age, long before any church was founded in Rome.

Theological splinters were promptly stomped out in those days. Arius and other heretics didn't splinter as they were destroyed before they could spread their heretical crap which would've resulted in the same thousands of splinters we see today.

The current state of Christianity, due almost exclusively to Protestantism, rejects St. Paul's wishes of One Faith and One Mind that he stressed so much throughout his letters. It's a shame. But luckily mainline Protestantism is dying a rapid death. However on the flip side, we are seeing growth of mega-church, "nondenominational," prosperity gospel houses of heresy that people go to because it starts in the late morning and offers child care.

Unfortunately, in the US, virtually all denominations are declining. Even the Baptists have started declining. Only the nondenominational mega-churches, Mormons and true fundamentalists are still growing.

(01-12-2017 07:55 AM)miko33 Wrote:  That may be pertinent to the people in the middle east circa 30 AD (if you take the bible stories at face value), but what about the people generations past who never saw Jesus in the flesh? If you take the approach that you advocate - distrust all Christian denominations - and all you have is the bible as your guide, then how do you know you chose the correct scriptures to base your worship on? We're not talking about books copied from the absolute original manuscripts. We're talking about translating these books from copies of copies that were copied from other copies. Adding to that, the writings were preserved in a writing style from a culture that is long dead. The messages were written ideally for an audience 2000 years ago.

The reason Christianity exists today is because of the church. Without the church, Christianity dies out. These denominations preserve the faith, and it's ludicrous to think that they do not. You put a premium on the bible in deference to a denomination. I can guarantee you this. A person is much more likely to become a Christian if they only adhere to the messages received in the churches thru participation without any bible study vs a person who never knew a Christian church and had to discover Christianity from the bible alone. Most people today who were not raised in a Christian denomination would reject the bible as myths from a bronze age thru iron age culture.

The denominations you rail against make Christianity possible. The bible is merely an aid to the denominations.

Well first off the bible itself says it is written for people for all ages of the earth, so its just inaccurate to say it or the NT was written just for people of 30 AD. God had a 2000+ year church age already planned out, and His Word was meant to be for the preservation of the Gospel and sound doctrine, even into the last days and future ages to come.

The bible itself teaches that faith come from hearing the Word (the Gospel), and then believing (Rom 10:17, 1 Cor 15:1-4) Attending a specific denomination has nothing to do with anything. Salvation is given through faith in Christ and His finished work at the cross.

Scholars have copies of NT manuscripts that date back to the 1st, 2nd and 3rd centuries of the church age. We also have a lot of early writings from the early church fathers even into the 1st century. we know the major doctrines they followed and the books they considered to be inspired cannon. The oldest OT manuscripts predate the birth of Christ (The Septuagint was translated about 300 BC).

Of course there is the much bigger point also that God promised multiple times in the OT to preserve His word for all generations. Obviously of you believe in a God who created the entire universe, preserving His word though the centuries is a small matter for Him. OT prophecy gives evidence of Gods hand in human history. The entire Jewish/Israel and Gentile church age drama was prophesied of multiple centuries before Christ was even born.

(01-12-2017 07:10 AM)shiftyeagle Wrote:  

(01-12-2017 07:06 AM)ArmyBlazer Wrote:  

(01-12-2017 04:35 AM)shiftyeagle Wrote:  I was in a Baptist "Church" last weekend. During his sermon, the Pastor said verbatim (I shiit you not), "I've never come across anyone in Grace Baptist Church who upped their tithe for 6 months and not been blessed more by God because of it."

My mouth hung open for "x" amount of minutes due to the remarkable heresy spewed by this snake oil salesman. I honestly couldn't believe it. That's bad even for the Baptists, whose theology is hilarious in the first place.

Granted that is an extreme example, but that's the world I'm from and part of the reason I became so disillusioned with Christianity.

Welcome home, brother.

Thanks. As I said earlier, the only real choices are between Roman Catholicism and Orthodoxy. I haven't been able to make the leap and join the Church yet, but I tend toward Orthodoxy. I do have a great appreciation for the RCC and what they've given the world, though.

(01-12-2017 07:40 AM)shiftyeagle Wrote:  

(01-12-2017 07:28 AM)ericsrevenge76 Wrote:  

(01-12-2017 07:24 AM)shiftyeagle Wrote:  

(01-12-2017 07:16 AM)ericsrevenge76 Wrote:  

(01-12-2017 07:12 AM)shiftyeagle Wrote:  This statement literally takes a giant shiit on Ephesians 4.

What are you saying? Only Catholics go to heaven?

I am saying exactly what St. Paul was saying. The Church was NEVER meant to devolve into this split, splintered mess with thousands of denominations all claiming to hold the fullness of the Gospel.

Also reference Philippians 2.

Well of course it was never meant to splinter into a million denominations, I made the same comment myself earlier in the thread. God knew it would though.

The churches were splintering in the very first few years of the church age, long before any church was founded in Rome.

Theological splinters were promptly stomped out in those days. Arius and other heretics didn't splinter as they were destroyed before they could spread their heretical crap which would've resulted in the same thousands of splinters we see today.

The current state of Christianity, due almost exclusively to Protestantism, rejects St. Paul's wishes of One Faith and One Mind that he stressed so much throughout his letters. It's a shame. But luckily mainline Protestantism is dying a rapid death. However on the flip side, we are seeing growth of mega-church, "nondenominational," prosperity gospel houses of heresy that people go to because it starts in the late morning and offers child care.

It also lends validity to the important work of the early church counsels (I'm mainly talking about the 1st 7 counsels). Protestantism, in general, rejects the statements of these counsels as being merely works of men and are disregarded (this being despite the fact that some of the foundational doctrines for their faith were laid here, even if they don't realize it). However, without the work of these early Christian leaders things like Arianism, Nestorianism, and other heresies would have spread like wildfire and corrupted Christianity.

In some cases, it really comes down to believing the bible is the Word of God or not.

If you believe the bible is not the Word of God, then you have problem because you believe in a God who doesn't even have the power to keep his own Holy Scripture from corruption by man. He made promises to preserve it forever, and couldn't follow through because men refused to allow it.

(01-12-2017 08:45 AM)ericsrevenge76 Wrote:  In some cases, it really comes down to believing the bible is the Word of God or not.

If you believe the bible is not the Word of God, then you have problem because you believe in a God who doesn't even have the power to keep his own Holy Scripture from corruption by man. He made promises to preserve it forever, and couldn't follow through because men refused to allow it.

I don't believe you have to think it is inerrant. It is inspired by God, but is the work of man. Jesus talked in parables. There is no reason to think the Old Testament prophets didn't also. The truth of the Bible is the same whether 72,000 Hebrews followed Moses into the desert or 720,000. The translation or transcription errors many believe exist don't change the fundamental truths. They are inconsequential. There is a wonderful coherence when you read it as a whole and not as individual books.

(01-12-2017 08:53 AM)bullet Wrote:  

(01-12-2017 08:45 AM)ericsrevenge76 Wrote:  In some cases, it really comes down to believing the bible is the Word of God or not.

If you believe the bible is not the Word of God, then you have problem because you believe in a God who doesn't even have the power to keep his own Holy Scripture from corruption by man. He made promises to preserve it forever, and couldn't follow through because men refused to allow it.

I don't believe you have to think it is inerrant. It is inspired by God, but is the work of man. Jesus talked in parables. There is no reason to think the Old Testament prophets didn't also. The truth of the Bible is the same whether 72,000 Hebrews followed Moses into the desert or 720,000. The translation or transcription errors many believe exist don't change the fundamental truths. They are inconsequential. There is a wonderful coherence when you read it as a whole and not as individual books.

Well I never meant to suggest there are no such things are transcription or translation variances. That is a far cry from believing the bible is a corrupted work of God. Most scholars believe the oldest manuscripts to be amazingly accurate with the modern translations. As we both said, the major doctrines of the NT are repeated over and over and over again in book after book. It seems specifically designed to minimize and eliminate major transcription/translation issues than can creep in over many centuries.

One of the amazing things about the time in which we live is the ability for the average Joe to study line by line in linear Greek and Hebrew bibles to compare it with the KJB. Its amazing how much information and knowledge is at our fingertips the last 10 years. Amazing word studies are a click away in the different languages. You not only have full breakdowns and definitions of each word, you are given every single occurrence of the word in the Greek or Hebrew text and can gauge the contextual use of the word through the whole bible in either language. Its just amazing what you can see and learn.

(01-12-2017 08:22 AM)ArmyBlazer Wrote:  

(01-12-2017 07:10 AM)shiftyeagle Wrote:  

(01-12-2017 07:06 AM)ArmyBlazer Wrote:  

(01-12-2017 04:35 AM)shiftyeagle Wrote:  I was in a Baptist "Church" last weekend. During his sermon, the Pastor said verbatim (I shiit you not), "I've never come across anyone in Grace Baptist Church who upped their tithe for 6 months and not been blessed more by God because of it."

My mouth hung open for "x" amount of minutes due to the remarkable heresy spewed by this snake oil salesman. I honestly couldn't believe it. That's bad even for the Baptists, whose theology is hilarious in the first place.

Granted that is an extreme example, but that's the world I'm from and part of the reason I became so disillusioned with Christianity.

Welcome home, brother.

Thanks. As I said earlier, the only real choices are between Roman Catholicism and Orthodoxy. I haven't been able to make the leap and join the Church yet, but I tend toward Orthodoxy. I do have a great appreciation for the RCC and what they've given the world, though.

I respect my Orthodox brethren and pray for reconciliation.

Look, there is a core belief that almost all of the protestant denominations share:

The only way to heaven is thru Jesus.... To recognize he died for all people... so on and so forth....

Most protestant denominations share that core belief... What differs is that countless other views & theology on other parts of the Bible, that in the end, don't matter.

(01-12-2017 10:44 AM)muffinman Wrote:  What differs is that countless other views & theology on other parts of the Bible, that in the end, don't matter.

Goodness.

If they didn't matter, then the Bible should be about 50 pages long.

(01-12-2017 10:50 AM)shiftyeagle Wrote:  

(01-12-2017 10:44 AM)muffinman Wrote:  What differs is that countless other views & theology on other parts of the Bible, that in the end, don't matter.

Goodness.

If they didn't matter, then the Bible should be about 50 pages long.

They don't matter in terms of individual salvation. But false doctrine or ignorance of His Word has a negative effect on a congregation. God wants us to be wise in the knowledge of His Word. He tells us to seek the Knowledge of the Lord like treasure (Prov 2 & Prov 4) and consume His Word daily.

Matt 4:4
But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

I don't agree with a lot of RCC traditions for scriptural reasons, but I do NOT believe all Catholics are lost because of their error. I disagree with you personally on some things, but I still consider you a brother in Christ.

I myself am by no means perfect in action or understanding, but I too can still be saved through faith in Christ and His resurrection.

Luther and Calvin would take the Catholic Church over those mega churches any day.

Just my opinion.

(01-12-2017 10:50 AM)shiftyeagle Wrote:  

(01-12-2017 10:44 AM)muffinman Wrote:  What differs is that countless other views & theology on other parts of the Bible, that in the end, don't matter.

Goodness.

If they didn't matter, then the Bible should be about 50 pages long.

Dont get me wrong, they are important... But in the big picture, they don't really matter.

(01-12-2017 11:42 AM)HarmonOliphantOberlanderDevine Wrote:  Luther and Calvin would take the Catholic Church over those mega churches any day.

Just my opinion.

Modern times do indeed seem to be fulfilling bible prophecy about the Laodicean church and the apostasy of the last days.

Not only is church attendance across the board shrinking, it may well be that the percentage of TRUE believers is also falling withing the churches. In other words, a higher percentage of people just "playing church" on Sunday and so forth. These mega churches are likely filled with those types.

(01-12-2017 11:50 AM)ericsrevenge76 Wrote:  

(01-12-2017 11:42 AM)HarmonOliphantOberlanderDevine Wrote:  Luther and Calvin would take the Catholic Church over those mega churches any day.

Just my opinion.

Modern times do indeed seem to be fulfilling bible prophecy about the Laodicean church and the apostasy of the last days.

Cant really argue with that point.

(01-12-2017 11:02 AM)ericsrevenge76 Wrote:  

(01-12-2017 10:50 AM)shiftyeagle Wrote:  

(01-12-2017 10:44 AM)muffinman Wrote:  What differs is that countless other views & theology on other parts of the Bible, that in the end, don't matter.

Goodness.

If they didn't matter, then the Bible should be about 50 pages long.

They don't matter in terms of individual salvation.

Are you kidding me?

You folks are so short-sighted.

(01-13-2017 03:20 AM)shiftyeagle Wrote:  

(01-12-2017 11:02 AM)ericsrevenge76 Wrote:  They don't matter in terms of individual salvation.

Are you kidding me?

You folks are so short-sighted.

You are free to believe whatever you choose to believe, but the bible is crystal clear on how to be saved. Its the most baisc and easiest doctrine in the bible to understand.


Romans 10:9
that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;

Act 16:31
"Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household."

Ephesians 2:8
"For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God."

Romans 11:16
"But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace."

Romans 3:24
"being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;"

Romans 5:1
"therefore having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,"

Galatians 2:16
"nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law shall no flesh be justified."

Galatians 3:14
"in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith."

Romans 3:28
"For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.

Romans 9:30
"What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith."

John 3:16
"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

John 5:24
"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Act 10:43
"Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins."

Romans 9:32
Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as though it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone,


We are not talking about half hearted or lukewarm faith, but TRUE, LIVING FAITH, daily. TRUE and living faith will bear fruits and good works for all to see. There is no such thing as true faith without bearing fruit and good works. If you truly believe, you will seek and follow His will.

(01-13-2017 05:15 AM)ericsrevenge76 Wrote:  

(01-13-2017 03:20 AM)shiftyeagle Wrote:  

(01-12-2017 11:02 AM)ericsrevenge76 Wrote:  They don't matter in terms of individual salvation.

Are you kidding me?

You folks are so short-sighted.

You are free to believe whatever you choose to believe, but the bible is crystal clear on how to be saved. Its the most baisc and easiest doctrine in the bible to understand.


Romans 10:9
that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;

Act 16:31
"Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household."

Ephesians 2:8
"For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God."

Romans 11:16
"But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace."

Romans 3:24
"being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;"

Romans 5:1
"therefore having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,"

Galatians 2:16
"nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law shall no flesh be justified."

Galatians 3:14
"in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith."

Romans 3:28
"For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.

Romans 9:30
"What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith."

John 3:16
"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

John 5:24
"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Act 10:43
"Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins."

Romans 9:32
Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as though it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone,


We are not talking about half hearted or lukewarm faith, but TRUE, LIVING FAITH, daily. TRUE and living faith will bear fruits and good works for all to see. There is no such thing as true faith without bearing fruit and good works. If you truly believe, you will seek and follow His will.

I've posted again and again a plethora of Scripture that refutes the 500-year old, man-made heresy of Sola Fide. You continually choose to completely dismiss them or simply don't read them. There's no point to me doing it again when I'm talking to a brick wall.