I think they did a lot to push us into the Iraq war too.

The only SECULAR govt. in the Mideast btw. That's still a headslapper! All these things get me fired up.

Perhaps looking at the current state of affairs in Indonesia, can be helpful in understanding why a single state solution will not work.

For decades, Indonesia had been a secular dictatorship. When democracy gained a foothold in the last 20 years, acts of persecution by the majority Muslims against Christians and Jews (and gays) have intensified. The Islamic leaders in Indonesia have called for a purge of all non-Muslims from the country.

This is what happens when Muslims take over a country where religious freedom had been the norm.

As someone who has spent their entire life as a Jew I have an idea of what is and is not objective criticism of Israel. I know that they as a nation are not guilt-free, but Mach's insolence to reason on this issue is astounding. And more than anything else, his misguided skepticism to Owl Numbers' foreign experience is incredible. I don't tell a doctor how to heal an ailment, an accountant on how to prepare my taxes, a trainer on how to exercise, a military man on how to wage war, a computer expert on coding, or a chef on making a nice dinner. From what I know of his past, questioning his personal experience on this issue is akin to an outsider lecturing me on the food manufacturing business, and then there are the facts of this issue to consider even if you look past personal credibility.

L and H, don't you know by now that Libturds are experts in every field. Heck, they can show an architect how to build a building with a hammer and a box of nails.

(12-27-2016 09:38 PM)Love and Honor Wrote:  As someone who has spent their entire life as a Jew I have an idea of what is and is not objective criticism of Israel. I know that they as a nation are not guilt-free, but Mach's insolence to reason on this issue is astounding. And more than anything else, his misguided skepticism to Owl Numbers' foreign experience is incredible. I don't tell a doctor how to heal an ailment, an accountant on how to prepare my taxes, a trainer on how to exercise, a military man on how to wage war, a computer expert on coding, or a chef on making a nice dinner. From what I know of his past, questioning his personal experience on this issue is akin to an outsider lecturing me on the food manufacturing business, and then there are the facts of this issue to consider even if you look past personal credibility.

Jewish people and Israel is well documented. FWIW modern day Israel was a chithole before the Jews went back and modernized it. It was nothing before they came back.

So Mach hates Isreal with the fire of a thousand suns because an Isreali called a Palestinian a meany-head at a 20/20 town hall? Seriously?!

(12-27-2016 05:16 PM)Machiavelli Wrote:  The only SECULAR govt. in the Mideast btw. That's still a headslapper! All these things get me fired up.

More like liquored up.

Which par do you disagree with?

That Israel breaks international law by collective punishment?

Or the targeting of civilian populations in occupied territory?

Or the ethnic cleansing?

I can somewhat understand 1 out of those 3. I don't understand the ethnic cleansing. Nor do
I condone collective punishment.

(12-27-2016 12:04 PM)Machiavelli Wrote:  How many UN votes do we have condemning Palestine? How many would Israel have if the US didn't shield them?

Again, how many Palestinians are defying UN resolutions by continuing to build illegal settlements?

The UN?

that's your "go to"?!?

dude. thought you'd taken a couple weeks off. If not, seriously, give it a go.

(12-27-2016 11:33 AM)Machiavelli Wrote:  What percent of Palestinians support Hamas? What percent of Palestinians support peaceful protests? You guys start with incorrect assumptions. Especially Owl. Your whole argument is based on a falsehood. 4/5 Palestinians favor peaceful protests. 80%.

First, you don't seem to have any understanding of how the Arab world works. Or public opinion. Or politics in general.

Second, the same article says that 74% supported firing rockets into Israel and 50% of Palestinians supported military actions against Israel.

Why are the numbers in April 2013 any more relevant than the numbers in 2012?

And, public opinion polls are completely irrelevant to the discussion.

The government actions ... both the government in Gaza - HAMAS and the government in the West Bank actively encourage and reward brazen, indiscriminate murder against Israelis.

I will remind any posters that believe you are a credible voice on this issue that you also asserted verifiable falsehoods (and to the best of my recollection never acknowledged proof that you were absolutely wrong) ... assertions that various governing bodies did not consider HAMAS and Hezbollah to be terrorist organizations.

(12-28-2016 01:58 AM)Machiavelli Wrote:  Which par do you disagree with?

That Israel breaks international law by collective punishment?

Or the targeting of civilian populations in occupied territory?

Or the ethnic cleansing?

I can somewhat understand 1 out of those 3. I don't understand the ethnic cleansing. Nor do
I condone collective punishment.

I don't think there is credible evidence that Israel is engaging in ethnic cleansing or targeting civilians. If Israel wanted to ethnically cleanse Palestinians they could wipe them out in days. There is also not evidence that they are targeting civilians. I would agree that Israel is less concerned about collateral damage than the US would be. But Israel strikes military or terrorist targets. Palestinians, on the other hand, do purposely target civilians.

There is an argument for the other one though, that they engage in collective punishment. Israel's conduct in blasting a military target with significant collateral damage could be considered a form of collective punishment. It's borderline but it can be argued either way.

(12-27-2016 02:41 PM)Machiavelli Wrote:  You know another thing with this that is absolute hogwash. You can protect the rights of the minority. Come up with a constitution that is based on international human rights. You can't change it. Wperation of church and state. Any of you knuckleheads that are worried about the imposition of Sharia Law are not worthy of debate. You could definitely gaurantee with a third grade understanding of civics a way that Sharia Law would never be implemented.

Like many of your posts on this topic, this post is incomprehensible.

But, you've trolled out the idea of a one-state solution by way of avoiding ethnic cleansing. The one-state solution is the process by which the ethnic cleansing of Israel would be achieved. You can look at Lebanese history by way of example, where that process has been underway for decades.

(12-27-2016 05:30 PM)QuestionSocratic Wrote:  Perhaps looking at the current state of affairs in Indonesia, can be helpful in understanding why a single state solution will not work.

For decades, Indonesia had been a secular dictatorship. When democracy gained a foothold in the last 20 years, acts of persecution by the majority Muslims against Christians and Jews (and gays) have intensified. The Islamic leaders in Indonesia have called for a purge of all non-Muslims from the country.

This - in essence - is a common theme in majority muslim countries. Islamism is staved off by dictatorship, and when democracy comes to the country, there is an inevitable turn to Islamism. Sadaam Hussein in Iraq, Hafez al Assad and Bashar al Assad in Syria (as we've seen, their brutality had to be supplemented with chemical weapons against his own population, and the resources of Iran and Russia were required make that brutality more effective), Attaturk's Turkish model was repeatedly swayed away from Islamist rule by cyclic military coups, the Shah of Iran, the Saudi royal family (when they topple, expect al Qaeda/ISIS to take over), Egypt - Sadat and Gamayel were replaced by the Muslim Brotherhood, north African in general, Ghadafi's Libya. Tunisia is an interesting counter-trend where there exists a softer Islamism, but even it faces significant pressure from ISIS-style Islamists.

Malaysia is a very interesting country - as a consequence of its time as part of the British Empire, the population is about 70% Malay, 20% Indian (localized mainly from Chenai), and 10% Chinese. With that, the accompanying religious splits provide a substantial Muslim majority. But, the support of religious/ethnic minorities was crucial to the post-colonial independence movement, and multi-culturalism in an Islamic framework is an important value. But, when you talk to non-Muslims, you appreciate the Animal Farm like atmosphere in which they live. Even Muslims don't like going to Muslim doctors because they know they had an easier path to certification than the non-Muslims. It is a modern-day caste system, and it's one of a few Muslim-majority countries in which non-Abrahmic religions are historically relatively safe.

I was not aware of a strong Islamist movement - at least not in Kuala Lumpur, but I think that has changed this year. Historically, I think the movement described here coincides with what the cab drivers told me - that the Sultans dictated that students should no longer learn English - thus while a most young Malaysians and most old Malaysians could speak English, there was a generation that generally could not, and that would coincide with the rise and fall of Islamism in the early 1980s.


I walked all over the place there, and if there were Jihadis looking to find an idiot American, I gave them ample target. After telling multiple cabbies and others that I came from a Jewish family, I found the reactions a bit odd, but then I came upon this article: How Malaysia Became One of the Most Anti-Semitic Countries on Earth | Malaysia Today. According to wiki, the number of Jews in Malaysia is less than 200.

The current rise of Islamism has apparently sounded some alarm bells. So, for those never-Trumpers, Britain voted to leave a continent in a fit of hubris by the PM, Columbia voted to continue its 40 year civil war, and apparently Malaysia is going down the tubes (1, 2).

(12-28-2016 02:28 AM)JMUDunk Wrote:  

(12-27-2016 12:04 PM)Machiavelli Wrote:  How many UN votes do we have condemning Palestine? How many would Israel have if the US didn't shield them?

Again, how many Palestinians are defying UN resolutions by continuing to build illegal settlements?

The UN?

that's your "go to"?!?

Ironically, anyone remember this quote:

"Unfortunately . . . Israel [has] suffered from bias—and sometimes even discrimination {from the UN}". Said by a former Secretary General of the UN.

So when your own organization's top individual makes these comments in the past... You REALLY Think they've changed today?

Again, if you're using the UN as your "Fair" speakers... HA!!!!

(12-27-2016 04:56 PM)No Bull Wrote:  MY question was not about a solution to Israel/Palestinian relations...etc. My question was why is Obama Anti-Semitic? i.e. why do progressives loathe Israel.

Mach what makes you pro Palestinian?

I am trying to understand this facet of the Progressive believe system.

It became part of their playbook. I'm not sure if they even know why anymore. It's particularly laughable Russia and Ukraine voted for the current UN resolution considering Russia has claimed part of Ukraine.

Why is the term "settlement" used in Israel? Everywhere else it is called development or building or planned communities.

No suburban development in the U.S. is called a "settlement."

(12-28-2016 01:58 AM)Machiavelli Wrote:  Which par do you disagree with?
That Israel breaks international law by collective punishment?
Or the targeting of civilian populations in occupied territory?
Or the ethnic cleansing?
I can somewhat understand 1 out of those 3. I don't understand the ethnic cleansing. Nor do I condone collective punishment.

I disagree with all three.

I have a question. Israel fought and won three wars over the West Bank. Gave it back after the first, got attacked repeatedly from there, decided to keep it after the second for self-defense, and successfully defended it in the third. Exactly what business does any other country have telling them what to do with it?

It's not "occupied territory." It's Israel. Fair and square.

Interesting quote from this article

"Never mind the $38 billion, 10-year aid package that the administration just put together, the largest in American-Israeli history. Never mind that the Reagan administration abstained from far more UN resolutions critical of Israel (seven) than Obama (one). Never mind that, in fact, the settlements threaten Israel’s long-term viability, since they pave the road to apartheid, in which a minority rules over a second-class majority. (They are also phenomenally expensive.) Never mind the unprecedented insults that Israeli leaders have hurled at President Obama, treating him like a mere occupant of the White House, rather than the president of the United States.
Never mind all that, the right says. Obama is anti-Israel. And if you support him, you must be anti-Semitic."

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/20...-sane.html

Obama's Father was Muslim, Obama's (wink) preacher, Rev. Wright is anti semitic so its only natural why Obama is a hater of Israel.