What percent of Palestinians support Hamas? What percent of Palestinians support peaceful protests? You guys start with incorrect assumptions. Especially Owl. Your whole argument is based on a falsehood. 4/5 Palestinians favor peaceful protests. 80%.

http://m.jpost.com/Middle-East/Poll-Hama...MzNjA1ODU=

You are collectively punishing 80% of the Palsstinian population.

(12-27-2016 10:36 AM)Machiavelli Wrote:  Owl please.

These are crimes against humanity and no the Palestinians did not put a command center in an apartment building. That is you who is misinformed and that is you taking a talking point. They have targeted Hamas leaders and if civilians get caught up in the collateral damage so be it. They have a careless and wanton attitude towards Palestinian blood. They have bulldozed houses. Over 48,000. Entire neighborhoods have been displaced because a suicide bomber came from the area. Again collective punishment.
The United Nations (UN) and human rights groups such as Amnesty International and the International Committee of the Red Cross who oppose the house demolitions reject the IDF's claims, and document numerous instances where they argue the IDF's claims do not apply.[3] They accuse the Israeli government and IDF of other motives:

Collective punishment, the punishment of an innocent Palestinian "for an offence he or she has not personally committed."[3][26]
Theft of Palestinian land by annexation to build the Israeli West Bank barrier or to create, expand or otherwise benefit Israeli settlements.[3][27]
According to the United Nations, about 1,500 homes were demolished by the IDF just in the Rafah area in the period 2000-2004.[28]

In 2004, Human Rights Watch published the report 'Razing Rafah: Mass Home Demolitions in the Gaza Strip'.[29][30] The report documented what it described as a "pattern of illegal demolitions" by the IDF in Rafah, a refugee camp and city at the southern end of the Gaza Strip on the border with Egypt where sixteen thousand people lost their homes after the Israeli government approved a plan to expand the de facto "buffer zone" in May 2004.[30][31] The IDF’s main stated rationales for the demolitions were responding to and preventing attacks on its forces and the suppression of weapons smuggling through tunnels from Egypt[32]

You really are uninformed. They have fired from hospitals, apartment buildings and stored rockets in a school.

(12-27-2016 10:51 AM)Machiavelli Wrote:  You need to answer why collective punishment isn't a crime against humanity. You need to answer why it is ok for the IDF to target civilian populations do to their ethnicity. You need to answer why that is not ethnic cleansing.

Why in the world the American right tolerates it is beyond me.

It reminds me of children who have had horrible acts done unto them. They in turn do that to others when they are older. It's terrible.

Let's put this into terms that you guys can somewhat relate to and understand. Imagine that Israel is the EPA. The Palestinians are the Bundy boys. Let's say the EPA wants to confiscate their lands to save a sand crane or tortoise. Boy you guys would be arming up your dune buggy's and Humvees and ready to go to battle. Hell most of you would buy a ticket for an airplane within a week. You guys would be so fired up after FoxNews and Drudge got done with you. Just imagine Israel was the Environmental Protection Agency confiscating homes in the name of stopping global warming instead of bulldozing women and children in homes. I forget sometimes the things that really fire you guys up. Think of the Palestinians as a giant corporation like Exxon Mobil. Maybe then you could find some compassion.

The IDF does not target civilian populations. They are more careful with their attacks than anyone but the Americans. And they are fighting to avoid extermination.

Why do you support a side that targets civilians? Palestinians direct their attacks PRIMARILY upon civilians.

(12-27-2016 11:33 AM)Machiavelli Wrote:  What percent of Palestinians support Hamas? What percent of Palestinians support peaceful protests? You guys start with incorrect assumptions. Especially Owl. Your whole argument is based on a falsehood. 4/5 Palestinians favor peaceful protests. 80%.
http://m.jpost.com/Middle-East/Poll-Hama...MzNjA1ODU=
You are collectively punishing 80% of the Palsstinian population.

But the actions of the other 20% make Israel's survival impossible without taking action. It's the 20% that is holding the 80% hostage that is the true human rights violation here. Why can't you bring yourself to comment on that?

(12-27-2016 11:33 AM)Machiavelli Wrote:  What percent of Palestinians support Hamas? What percent of Palestinians support peaceful protests? You guys start with incorrect assumptions. Especially Owl. Your whole argument is based on a falsehood. 4/5 Palestinians favor peaceful protests. 80%.

http://m.jpost.com/Middle-East/Poll-Hama...MzNjA1ODU=

You are collectively punishing 80% of the Palsstinian population.

The majority support Hamas. They got Democratically elected in Gaza. Elections haven't been held in the West Bank because they fear Hamas would win. Polls indicate they might well win.

(12-27-2016 10:51 AM)Machiavelli Wrote:  Let's put this into terms that you guys can somewhat relate to and understand. Imagine that Israel is the EPA. The Palestinians are the Bundy boys. Let's say the EPA wants to confiscate their lands to save a sand crane or tortoise. Boy you guys would be arming up your dune buggy's and Humvees and ready to go to battle. Hell most of you would buy a ticket for an airplane within a week. You guys would be so fired up after FoxNews and Drudge got done with you. Just imagine Israel was the Environmental Protection Agency confiscating homes in the name of stopping global warming instead of bulldozing women and children in homes. I forget sometimes the things that really fire you guys up. Think of the Palestinians as a giant corporation like Exxon Mobil. Maybe then you could find some compassion.

Here's where your hypothetical fails. Neither ExxonMobil nor the Bundys have utilized human shields in violation of the Geneva Conventions. How do you get around that?

Bottom line. The IDF attacks targets of known or believed military value, makes maximum effort (including your apartment building case) to minimize civilian casualties, but inevitably causes civilian collateral damage as a result. The Palestinians target civilians, without regard to military value. Which of those is worse?

Mach, is it your position that the IDF cannot attack military targets where the Palestinians are using human shields?

Because if that's your position, then you are seeking to impose restrictions that would mean that Israel cannot survive. The only thing that such a position would assure is that the Palestinians would always use human shields.

Who continues to defy international law with the building of settlements? Instead of singing Kumbaya let's just stop violating international law. Let's stop electing morons like Netanyahu who continually back Israel into corners.

Let's start there.
After that we can work on international human rights.

(12-27-2016 11:59 AM)Machiavelli Wrote:  Who continues to defy international law with the building of settlements? Instead of singing Kumbaya let's just stop violating international law. Let's stop electing morons like Netanyahu who continually back Israel into corners.
Let's start there.
After that we can work on international human rights.

So it's your position that the Palestinians are not violating international law?

At this point they are basically a rogue nation. Aided and abetted by the dysfunctional American political system.

How many UN votes do we have condemning Palestine? How many would Israel have if the US didn't shield them?

Again, how many Palestinians are defying UN resolutions by continuing to build illegal settlements?

(12-27-2016 12:01 PM)Machiavelli Wrote:  At this point they are basically a rogue nation. Aided and abetted by the dysfunctional American political system.

So your solution is to allow the Palestinians to kill all the Jews?

Because that is the inevitable result of the actions that you are recommending.

(12-27-2016 12:04 PM)Machiavelli Wrote:  How many UN votes do we have condemning Palestine? How many would Israel have if the US didn't shield them?
Again, how many Palestinians are defying UN resolutions by continuing to build illegal settlements?

So Palestinian attacks on Israeli civilians with no military value, launched from behind human shields, do not constitute human rights violations? Why not?

(12-27-2016 12:04 PM)Machiavelli Wrote:  How many UN votes do we have condemning Palestine? How many would Israel have if the US didn't shield them?
Again, how many Palestinians are defying UN resolutions by continuing to build illegal settlements?

The UN is basically a worthless POS organization. It has become such because the US has sat idly by and let it become such.

Groups like UNESCO and UNICEF perform valuable services. Limit the UN to doing those sorts of things, and get it out of international politics, and we might have something worthwhile.

So when we don't like the vote we trash the institution. It works here in the US. You guys learn well.

You crack me up Owl. You have blatant violations right in front of your nose but you ignore them. For every lob attack you can point to I can point to a direct asymmetrical retribution. You have continual building of settlements. You continue to ignore those.

I have stated a one state solution where Christian, Jews, and Muslims are equal under the eyes of the law. You continue to support ethnic cleansing. Should Palestinians be worth 3/5ths of a bonafide Jew? I'm the one giving the answers you continue with insults. Hate breeds hate. I'm not going to be a part of it nor will I support it. If a country can't gaurantee every individual certain unalienable rights based on universal human rights it doesn't deserve to stand. It is a house built on sand. No foundation. I will continue to talk out against it.

(12-27-2016 12:14 PM)Machiavelli Wrote:  So when we don't like the vote we trash the institution. It works here in the US. You guys learn well.

It has been a trash institution for decades, long before I didn't l like this vote.

(12-27-2016 12:21 PM)Machiavelli Wrote:  You crack me up Owl. You have blatant violations right in front of your nose but you ignore them.

You crack me up, Mach. You have blatant violations right in front of your nose and you ignore them.

(12-27-2016 12:28 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(12-27-2016 12:21 PM)Machiavelli Wrote:  You crack me up Owl. You have blatant violations right in front of your nose but you ignore them.

You crack me up, Mach. You have blatant violations right in front of your nose and you ignore them.

You have right violations on both sides. Israel has proven that they can take care of themselves. We should just wash our hands of the situation and let the chips fall where they may.

(12-27-2016 12:21 PM)Machiavelli Wrote:  I have stated a one state solution where Christian, Jews, and Muslims are equal under the eyes of the law. You continue to support ethnic cleansing.

Lie. You owe me an apology for that lie.

I have repeatedly stated that I support a two-state solution, but that the second state cannot be carved out of the current footprint of Israel. There is no way to draw boundaries for a workable two-state solution within the current footprint of Israel. Since you seem to want a one-state solution, I won't challenge you, but anyone who thinks there is a viable two state solution, start out by posting a map of where the boundaries should be.

As for your one-state solution, Christians are probably fine with that, most Jews are probably fine with that, Muslims aren't. So how do you propose to overcome that?

I have repeatedly stated my proposal here. Acquire from Egypt all of Sinai east of 33E. There is a price at which they would do this, their economy is currently in shambles, and they lack the resources to maintain law and order in Sinai as is. This would let them keep the canal plus enough of the Sinai bank to be secure, and fund some major economic projects that they want to do. Israel gets everything between 34E and the Jordan. That gives them relatively easily defensible borders and control of at least one side of Bab el Mandeb, which is strategically important. Palestinians get all of Sinai between 33E and 34E. That gives them back their historic homeland, that has economic potential through SCUBA diver tourism and some oil discoveries, which is a lot more than Gaza plus the West Bank offers. It would take some infrastructure work to make it hospitable, but nothing that isn't doable--build cities with roads, bridges, schools, hospitals, and homes, salt water desalinization plants, maybe build a couple of dams on the Wadi al-Arish to store water and provide irrigation, build a bunch of solar electric generation. Do the Tom Clancy thing and make Jerusalem an international city, with a corridor to the Jordanian border and an international airport within that corridor, so that Muslims and others can come from anywhere in the world without having to pass through Israel. Trade that to the Arabs for recognition of Israel's government and right to exist and govern the land that it does. That's expensive, for sure, but I defy anyone to come up with a more workable plan.

So don't go telling the lie that I support ethnic cleansing. I support a workable solution. The difference between you and me is that I have spent enough time in the region to understand what is doable and what isn't. As long as we continue to try to force unworkable solutions because we don't understand the issues, we will continue to have a mess on our hands.