Bottom line. There is no viable two-state solution. There is no viable one-state solution.

Mach, when's the last time anybody lobbed rocket bombs into Cleveland. Until you've walked a mile in their moccasins, you have no clue what you are talking about.

So, is your position that Israel should just sit there and let the Palestinians kill them?

https://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/24/world....html?_r=0

Text book example of targeting civilians and collective punishment. What they did in this instance was a crime against humanity. I won't support it and I'll talk out against it.

(12-26-2016 01:07 PM)Machiavelli Wrote:  https://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/24/world....html?_r=0

Text book example of targeting civilians and collective punishment. What they did in this instance was a crime against humanity. I won't support it and I'll talk out against it.

Just so I'm understanding you correctly, you are saying it is perfectly okay for the Palestinians to locate a military command post in an apartment building, a move that makes zero strategic or tactical sense, except for the purpose of making human shields of the occupants of that building?

And to further clarify, if your enemies are locating their command post in such a location, how do you propose to take out said command post?

One would think after being targeted with ethnic cleansing themselves they would be a tad more sensitive in doing it to others. You can't defend their actions and believe in basic human rights. Keep building the settlements and you will eventually invite an international boycott. The playbook is out there to bring Israel to its knees economically. You either believe in Universal Human Rights or you don't.

(12-26-2016 09:06 AM)Machiavelli Wrote:  You can't punish the whole for the actions of a few. It's ethnic cleansing. It's against the Geneva conventions. There is a reason the whole world lines up against Israel.

The ironic twist however, by building these settlements they are cementing the one state solution. One man one vote. Equal treatment for all. We've seen this movie before and the oppressor in the end always loses.

Just curious.

What do you suppose will happen to Israeli Jews if/when the Palestinians ever achieve a voting majority?

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Owl, You have a bad habit of attributing thoughts and ideas of things I don't say.

You do it in every thread on global warming and now you are doing it here. Quit doing it.

What part of killing innocents for the crimes of the guilty do we not understand?

Smaug...... Ding Ding...... light bulb time.


You make a pretty convincing argument to stop building settlements. All you have to do is make the equality argument under the eyes of the law and the Palestinians will win that argument every time all the time. The truth is the US has shielded Israel from yearly denouncement time and time again. It's not hard to frame the argument and it's not hard on being on the side righteous and just. You don't target civilian centers and you don't collectively punish civilians. Stop building settlements and violating international law.

(12-26-2016 11:44 AM)Machiavelli Wrote:  Universal decloration of human rights. Signed by the US. Why not Israel?

Virtually every UN and international organization holds Israel to a different set of standards than any other nation on earth. Entering into treaties that cannot possibly benefit a nation in that environment is pure foolishness, and you should know that if you put a little bit of thought into it.

Machiavelli - if you want to know what ethnic cleansing looks like, look to Aleppo. If you want to know what war crimes look like, you can look at the basic tactics of every Arab nation when it comes to war ... look to Yemen, to Iraq (the Shia-dominated armed forces), to Iran. If you want to know what Human Rights violations look like, you can look to HAMAS and the Palestinian Authority and what they perpetrate on their own people. In terms of scale and intent, what you allege Israel to have done - even if a fraction of what you imagine to have happened is true - it pales in scale and brazenness to every one of its neighbors.

(12-26-2016 01:22 PM)Machiavelli Wrote:  Smaug...... Ding Ding...... light bulb time.


You make a pretty convincing argument to stop building settlements. All you have to do is make the equality argument under the eyes of the law and the Palestinians will win that argument every time all the time. The truth is the US has shielded Israel from yearly denouncement time and time again. It's not hard to frame the argument and it's not hard on being on the side righteous and just. You don't target civilian centers and you don't collectively punish civilians. Stop building settlements and violating international law.

Answer my question.

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I believe in the goodness of people. When people are treated fairly people will live in peace. No justice no peace.

(12-26-2016 01:55 PM)Machiavelli Wrote:  I believe in the goodness of people. When people are treated fairly people will live in peace.

You should suggest that personally to ISIS. I'm sure they'd welcome you there with open arms and a very long knife.

(12-26-2016 01:16 PM)Machiavelli Wrote:  Owl, You have a bad habit of attributing thoughts and ideas of things I don't say.
You do it in every thread on global warming and now you are doing it here. Quit doing it.
What part of killing innocents for the crimes of the guilty do we not understand?

I'm not attributing any thoughts to you. I'm asking you questions. The answers to those questions will identify where you stand on things.

I understand that you don't believe that Israel's actions are appropriate in the circumstances. It's always easy to find fault with what someone else is doing. What I'm asking you is what should they do instead.

Should they just let the Palestinians kill them?
Should they respond in some way?
What way would that be?
What if that doesn't work?
What then?

It's very easy to say that they shouldn't attack military targets when civilians are in close proximity. So what should they do instead? Live with the consequences of having that military target able to inflict death and damage on them? Or something else? If something else, what else?

You're doing a whole lot of pontificating what what appears to be a very poor understanding of the actual situation. I'm trying to figure out what you would want to see done instead. Would you mind?

(12-26-2016 01:55 PM)Machiavelli Wrote:  I believe in the goodness of people. When people are treated fairly people will live in peace. No justice no peace.

Thousands of years of history say that, at least in this part of the world, you are dead wrong in those beliefs.

What fundamental goodness is exhibited by people who openly state that their goal is to eradicate you? What does treating those people fairly look like? What results do you expect that to produce?

(12-26-2016 02:04 PM)smudge12 Wrote:  I barely have a fight in this, but my grandmother was Palestinian. In '48, her village (now part of Israel) was ransacked by a zionist militia, she was forced out of her home, and people she knew killed. She and her family fled and were never allowed to return, many of which wanted to die where their families grew up for generations. FWIW, her father (my great-grandfather) fought with the Arab Legion against the Axis powers in the Mediterranean theatre during WWII...and lost everything when Israel was formed.

I'm for peace and a two-state solution, but it's a two-way street. The Arabs need to understand that Israel is here to stay and their citizens deserve peace. But on the other side, Israel needs to stop taking more land from the Palestinians and should recognize their fundamental freedoms as humans.

You aboslutely nailed it and are 100% correct. Which is why the forum conservatives will completely ignore your post.

Owl, don't waste your time on these "wise" people. They'll believe what they believe regardless of the facts. They'll keep believing this crap even if they have their heads down waiting for that sharp knife to disengage their heads from their bodies. Poor, poor Islamic radicals, no one understands them except the ones that have more to lose like gays, atheists, etc.

I personally know and respect Smudge, and also have a Palestinian Christian friend from college with which I have remained connected. Nothing is ever black and white, particularly with the Middle East. While I strongly disagree with Obama'a non-support of israel, I believe Smudge's point of view is one of the most reasonable I have heard. Israel wants more territory to prevent rocket attacks, etc. Palestinians want a land of their own and no foreign occupation. Maybe a more productive path would be getting each's house in order, proclamations of the other's right to exist, and development of a framework to ensure that happens. Just like race-baiting, this perma-conflict baiting has continued on for too long and needs to have a more peaceful and permanent solution.

Be an honest negotiator and quit building settlements. Pay people back for the property you stole from them in the middle of the night.

(12-26-2016 02:04 PM)smudge12 Wrote:  I barely have a fight in this, but my grandmother was Palestinian. In '48, her village (now part of Israel) was ransacked by a zionist militia, she was forced out of her home, and people she knew killed. She and her family fled and were never allowed to return, many of which wanted to die where their families grew up for generations. FWIW, her father (my great-grandfather) fought with the Arab Legion against the Axis powers in the Mediterranean theatre during WWII...and lost everything when Israel was formed.

I'm for peace and a two-state solution, but it's a two-way street. The Arabs need to understand that Israel is here to stay and their citizens deserve peace. But on the other side, Israel needs to stop taking more land from the Palestinians and should recognize their fundamental freedoms as humans.

I'm for peace and a two state solution too--except for one thing. There is no peaceful two-state solution within the current footprint of Israel. The pre-1967 borders produce an Israel that would have a difficult problem defending itself (that's why they went to war in 1967) and a Palestinian state with little prospect of organizing a viable economy. There's no other better alternative. Sitting comfortably here in the US, it's easy to conjure up all sorts of "solutions" and wonder why they don't adopt them. On the ground over there, those "solutions" don't exist.

(12-26-2016 10:03 PM)Machiavelli Wrote:  Be an honest negotiator and quit building settlements. Pay people back for the property you stole from them in the middle of the night.

And how do you respond when they keep launching rockets at you?

You keep refusing to address that.