(12-25-2016 02:10 AM)Machiavelli Wrote:  What is the difference between the Palestinians living conditions in Israel vs Apartheid in South Africa? Why isn't the debate ever framed that way? I can't believe more people don't see it in the viewpoint of basic fairness. Some Palestinians were remov d forceably from their homes. Don't thy have the right to be at least compensated. Are there universal human rights? Why should the US shield Israel if they are breaking international law with the building of settlements in disputed territory?

What are the viable options?
How would the Palestinians be better off with a two state solution under which there was no viable economy in the Palestinian state?
If you want to argue that the Palestinian state would have a viable economy, what would that economy be? What would they make? How would they export it? What would they import? How and by what route?
Hint: Nothing is going in or out through Israel or Jordan, and they won't be commuting to any jobs in Israel or Jordan.

There's this false narrative that somehow the Palestinians would be better off under a two-state solution. No, they wouldn't.

(12-25-2016 01:52 AM)JMUDunk Wrote:  

(12-24-2016 11:59 PM)Love and Honor Wrote:  

(12-24-2016 10:14 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  Disagreeing with Israel is not anti-Semitic.

I'm Jewish and I agree with this. It can be depending on the nature of the criticism, but it's not necessarily so. I just think Obama and Netanyahu's personalities naturally clash, and the former has pretty set opinions on Israel that don't favor close relations with the US. Plus the fact that Trump has been so vocal in their support may have played a role in Obama wanting to jab a fork in his side.

While I don't necessarily disagree, such personal opinions should struggle to not design policy.

We can always pick our friends or allies, our enemies will decide whether we are an enemy or not.

I agree, but unfortunately I think Obama is a rather arrogant person and that blinds him to the realities of foreign policy and the point you're trying to make.

As to QuestionSocratic's point, I think there is an extremely fine line that exists on this issue. I've known plenty of people who have a problem with Israel's West Bank settlements or the foreign aid we give them, but they acknowledge Israel's right to exist and prosper as a nation. Of course, once you start going into DavidSt territory you're pretty much getting into anti-Zionism, and once you start getting into even more stupid s*** (i.e. Holocaust denial, not that I've seen anyone around here do it) then you've gone a mile past the line.

Israel is not the 51st state, nor should not be treated as such. It should be looked upon as a modern nation that guarantees public freedoms far greater than that of its neighbors and possesses an advanced economy. Given its location in an exceptionally unstable part of the world, we must maintain close ties without making them dependent on us in every respect.

(12-25-2016 11:10 AM)Machiavelli Wrote:  It's called collective punishment. Look it up. It's racist and against the Geneva Conventions.

Protecting yourself against people who are attempting constantly to destroy you is somehow punishment?

Where do you draw the line between self-defense and punishment?

(12-24-2016 09:45 PM)No Bull Wrote:  Progressives in general just love Palestinians... I don't understand their reasoning.

Muslim home countries supply the world with those designer drugs the leftists love so much. And They look so Hippyish 1960's with that long hair, beards and ragged garments and cool hats. The progressives just love that era so much when Democrats ran the show.

I try to research this issye and there is nothing out there. I work and am friends with progressives and to a person they are anti Israel. I don't understand.

There are many Jews in Israel that do not like Netanyahu for a reason. He is not really popular in his own country. I hope you guys are not saying that Jews are anti-Jews as well for having the same view points with Obama?

Obama prefers his Muslims warm and his Israelies cold.

(12-25-2016 12:49 PM)No Bull Wrote:  I try to research this issye and there is nothing out there. I work and am friends with progressives and to a person they are anti Israel. I don't understand.

The answer is simple. God favors the Jews, Jesus was a Jew, Israel is a Jewish state, voila, let's hate Israel and what it stands for. Let's not worry that the Muslims would soon shove a gay over a 5 story building, who cares, it's hip and progressive to be atheist.

And…yes, I know, Jews don't follow Jesus but neither do the Muslims. If they even had sympathy for "one of their prophets" which they claim Jesus is they wouldn't want Christians dead.

But Christians as silly as that sounds for unbelievers believe what the Bible said about Israel.

Even though Oblunder bamboozled everyone that he was a Christian his antics tell otherwise. He is a Muslim in sheeps clothing. He would love to see Israel destroyed and the sooner the better. Remember that Progressives love anything or anyone that would destroy Israel and they don't hide it.

Israel has democratic institutions, Israel has for the most part been an important ally. Jews have historically been oppressed and despised. Israel occupies territory because countries invaded it and then lost and won't make a legitimate peace. Israel has intense security activity in occupied territories because people there blow things up. Missiles are fired into Israeli civilian areas regularly...this tends to make people, and governments, grumpy.

Israel should not be colonizing occupied territories.



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I'm not thinking two state solution. One state where the Palestinians have equal protections. One man one vote.

(12-25-2016 05:02 PM)Machiavelli Wrote:  I'm not thinking two state solution. One state where the Palestinians have equal protections. One man one vote.

Palestinians don't want that. Israelis don't want that. It would be a security nightmare.

Other than that, it's a great idea.

I fail to see how Obama is being any more anti-Semitic than the millions of American and Isreali Jews that loathe Bibi and his land grabbing policies on the West Bank.

Wrong.

Many Palestinians call for exactly that. Some Israelis want to continue apartheid but many agree with me.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/One-state_solution

Israeli Prime Minister Olmert argued, in a 2007 interview with the Israeli daily Ha'aretz, that without a two-state agreement Israel would face "a South African-style struggle for equal voting rights" in which case "Israel [would be] finished".[26] This echoes comments made in 2004 by Palestinian Prime Minister Ahmed Qurei, who said that if Israel failed to conclude an agreement with the Palestinians, that the Palestinians would pursue a single, bi-national state.[50] In November 2009, Palestinian negotiator Saeb Erekat proposed the adoption of the one-state solution if Israel did not halt settlement construction: "[Palestinians must] refocus their attention on the one-state solution where Muslims, Christians and Jews can live as equals... It is very serious. This is the moment of truth for us."[51]

Just study Mandela. Eventually justice and truth will prevail.

How do you share power in a one state solution where the group you are sharing with is sworn to eradicate you?

How do you have a two state solution that is not apartheid?

All of the "they ought to do this" or "they ought to do that" comments overlook one significant factor. The thises and thats being proposed aren't doable. And neither Palestinians nor Israelis nor we can change that.

Mach, your whole analytical framework rests on two assumptions. One, that Israelis have nothing but the worst motivations at heart. Two, that Palestinians have nothing but the best motivations at heart. Both assumptions are false.

It just boggles my mind that any progressive can support anything Muslim based. Muslims have not progressed in centuries. It's akin to Edison loving the Amish lifestyle.

"Yes, I have spent my life pursuing greater respect and equality for all people, regardless of race, gender, color or sexual preference. I believe the world will be a horrible, unfair place until full equality is reached."

"Well, how do you feel about Muslims? You know they are anti-gay, make women subservient, cut off people's heads, will stone a woman if she is raped, that kind of stuff."

"XENOPHOBE!!!"

Seriously, are we being trolled by progressives on this?

(12-25-2016 11:25 PM)banker Wrote:  It just boggles my mind that any progressive can support anything Muslim based. Muslims have not progressed in centuries. It's akin to Edison loving the Amish lifestyle.

"Yes, I have spent my life pursuing greater respect and equality for all people, regardless of race, gender, color or sexual preference. I believe the world will be a horrible, unfair place until full equality is reached."

"Well, how do you feel about Muslims? You know they are anti-gay, make women subservient, cut off people's heads, will stone a woman if she is raped, that kind of stuff."

"XENOPHOBE!!!"

Seriously, are we being trolled by progressives on this?

That's a heck uhva nutshell.

Well done.

Peace in the middle east is a mirage. The Muslims will never accept Israel and will try to destroy it forever. The Israelis will never give up the land. I personally think the best solution would be for Arab nations to accept the Palestinians as refugees. But that is not going to happen.

Luckily for us, the issue is none of our business. We shouldn't interfere with the internal affairs of foreign nations.

(12-25-2016 11:10 AM)Machiavelli Wrote:  It's called collective punishment. Look it up. It's racist and against the Geneva Conventions.

Have read this thread only to this point so someone may address Mach's comment better than I. Are you really whining about the "collective punishment" of a religious group and its transnational supporters whose leaders vow that all Jews will be eradicated if they can gain the power to do so? There's a definition for the word eradicate. Look it up.