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OptimisticOwl Offline
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Post: #81
RE: Trump Administration
(12-13-2016 01:07 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  
(12-13-2016 11:20 AM)Hambone10 Wrote:  Agree with Owlnumber's assessment.

I think Trump is putting lots of people in charge of organizations based on their history of managing the business aspects of such endeavors... and counting on them to hire the PhD's to advise them on the practicality of the various issues. Much in the way that any good corporation/team doesn't always have an 'expert in all areas' at the helm... but instead puts an expert at 'being at the helm' at the helm.

We can debate whether or not Perry is that person, but Similarly, Rice's President is one of few non PhD's in the position, no?

Well, let's just hope the DOE wasn't the third department Perry couldn't remember...

I think it was.
12-13-2016 02:23 PM
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Owl 69/70/75 Online
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Post: #82
RE: Trump Administration
(12-13-2016 01:06 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  Please back up this statement with some evidence that you can cite.

What statement?

Quote:These two descriptions make it clear why someone with an aptitude for conducting scientific research is well suited to lead the DOE.

No, they don't.
12-13-2016 02:42 PM
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RiceLad15 Online
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Post: #83
RE: Trump Administration
(12-13-2016 02:42 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(12-13-2016 01:06 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  Please back up this statement with some evidence that you can cite.

What statement?

Quote:These two descriptions make it clear why someone with an aptitude for conducting scientific research is well suited to lead the DOE.

No, they don't.

The statement I bolded in your original comment:

Quote:Besides, those PhD's haven't exactly acquitted themselves with distinction, and a couple of them in particular seemed incapable of grasping some pretty basic realities.

And why do you think that the descriptions of the DOE's responsibilities mean that someone who is familiar with conducting research is NOT well suited to run the DOE? Or are you just suggesting that it doesn't add value? Or that it is not necessary? Kind of a vague response.
12-13-2016 03:03 PM
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RiceLad15 Online
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Post: #84
RE: Trump Administration
(12-13-2016 02:23 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  
(12-13-2016 01:07 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  
(12-13-2016 11:20 AM)Hambone10 Wrote:  Agree with Owlnumber's assessment.

I think Trump is putting lots of people in charge of organizations based on their history of managing the business aspects of such endeavors... and counting on them to hire the PhD's to advise them on the practicality of the various issues. Much in the way that any good corporation/team doesn't always have an 'expert in all areas' at the helm... but instead puts an expert at 'being at the helm' at the helm.

We can debate whether or not Perry is that person, but Similarly, Rice's President is one of few non PhD's in the position, no?

Well, let's just hope the DOE wasn't the third department Perry couldn't remember...

I think it was.

Hopefully he has less than three steps to remember when dismantling the department. The DOE does a lot of good.
12-13-2016 03:15 PM
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Owl 69/70/75 Online
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Post: #85
RE: Trump Administration
(12-13-2016 03:03 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  The statement I bolded in your original comment:
Quote:Besides, those PhD's haven't exactly acquitted themselves with distinction, and a couple of them in particular seemed incapable of grasping some pretty basic realities.
And why do you think that the descriptions of the DOE's responsibilities mean that someone who is familiar with conducting research is NOT well suited to run the DOE? Or are you just suggesting that it doesn't add value? Or that it is not necessary? Kind of a vague response.

I would say more unnecessary than anything. It may or may not add value, but I think there are other things like management experience and a depth of understanding about economic issues that would add more value. In some ways, it is sort of analogous to the kinds of things being said about Ben Carson at HUD. Being a great scientist doesn't mean you can lead or manage a federal department.

As for not covering themselves with glory, you and I probably are far enough apart on the issues that what I think is terrible would sound great to you. But for starters, somebody was Secretary of Energy when the Solyndra loans were made.
12-13-2016 03:36 PM
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RiceLad15 Online
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Post: #86
RE: Trump Administration
(12-13-2016 03:36 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(12-13-2016 03:03 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  The statement I bolded in your original comment:
Quote:Besides, those PhD's haven't exactly acquitted themselves with distinction, and a couple of them in particular seemed incapable of grasping some pretty basic realities.
And why do you think that the descriptions of the DOE's responsibilities mean that someone who is familiar with conducting research is NOT well suited to run the DOE? Or are you just suggesting that it doesn't add value? Or that it is not necessary? Kind of a vague response.

I would say more unnecessary than anything. It may or may not add value, but I think there are other things like management experience and a depth of understanding about economic issues that would add more value. In some ways, it is sort of analogous to the kinds of things being said about Ben Carson at HUD. Being a great scientist doesn't mean you can lead or manage a federal department.

As for not covering themselves with glory, you and I probably are far enough apart on the issues that what I think is terrible would sound great to you. But for starters, somebody was Secretary of Energy when the Solyndra loans were made.

To the bolded, if I had said that having a PhD was THE only prerequisite, than I would agree, but I wasn't. I do think having someone who has been thoroughly involved with the research experience would be beneficial to running a Department that is very involved with research funding. However, it isn't the only requirement.

And yes, while Solyndra was a failed company, let's look at how the loan program it was a part of did? Oh what'ts this? It was actually a successful program covered ALL loses it endured from the few failures in Fisker Automotive, Abound Solar, AND Solyndra. It made $810 million in interest payments alone by Sept 2012 after it started in 2009 (loses were $780 million). Cited: http://www.reuters.com/article/us-doe-lo...A120141113

Give it a break. Solyndra is a crappy talking point for people who actually care to do the research. Just look at some updated articles and see that that line sucks: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/...orms-banks

So you're telling me I should think someone did a bad job when the program has generated $1.65 billion in interest payments from loans (so that is still $1 billion with the $535 million lose ofr Solyndra) that are meant to try and move the country's energy industry forward?
12-13-2016 04:03 PM
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Owl 69/70/75 Online
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Post: #87
RE: Trump Administration
(12-13-2016 04:03 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  I do think having someone who has been thoroughly involved with the research experience would be beneficial to running a Department that is very involved with research funding.

I don't. Seriously. I think it is very likely to lead to focusing on the trees instead of the forest.

And that's kind of my problem with Solyndra and a lot of other DOE stuff. The big problem is not that Solyndra failed, or others, it's more that Solyndra wasn't going to be a game-changer, even if it had worked. We need to be thinking bigger rather than smaller in this area.

Look at the track record:

In 1976, Brazil and the US both committed to become self-sufficient in energy. 40 years later, they are, we aren't. They did it with alternatives and they did it with drilling. 44% of their on-the-highway fuel is biofuels--sugar cane ethanol or biodiesel. We are still farting around with corn, because Iowa is the first primary.

As far as solar, China focused more on big-ticket stuff, and they have left us pawing at the dirt. Even if Solyndra had repaid its debt, it wasn't going to put us up with China.

The biggest single part of DOE is nuclear, which was the primary reason it was established. France gets 80% of its electricity from nuclear. We don't. France addresses the waste problem by reprocessing. Thanks to Jimmy Carter, we don't. Speaking of thanks to Jimmy Carter, he is the reason why we burn more coal and less natural gas in generating electricity. Nuclear is not without risks. Guess what, neither is anything else. If we want to make a major impact on greenhouse gases with current technology, nuclear is about it. Why don't we have a program of developing cookie-cutter nuke plants like France does, and put them around the country to make up supply? I was in Paris years ago, and heard a TV interview with their energy minister, who was a Green Party member as part of a coalition government. He was asked why a Green would support so much nuclear. He responded, "Look around, do you see any oil wells?"

Like it or not, we are dependent on oil for the immediate future. We're not getting off oil any time soon, because we don't have anything viable to get ON instead. So, on the one hand, we certainly should be pursuing alternatives with full vigor. But at the same time, it makes no sense to be getting that oil in anything but the most efficient and least environmentally risky way possible. And like it or not, that means pipelines. So why not XL and why no Dakota? Simple, the alternative is rail or truck, and George Soros owns a bunch of rail cars. Never mind that the environmental risks are much higher, gotta make money for our cronies.

Norway has much stricter standards for deepwater offshore drilling than we do. In 40 years in the North Sea, they've never had a BP incident. And if they had one, they have the tools to take care of it in short order. But you can get a drilling permit in two months in Norway, whereas they can take 18 months here. There's no reason for that.

So those are some of the places where I think our energy department has its head wedged firmly up its ass. If all those PhD's had been worth a damn, we'd have nuclear where France does and solar where China does and biofuels where Brazil does, and our offshore oil and gas production could be where Norway's is, only on a larger scale. But we focus instead on stupid stuff that does little to solve the problem, but makes somebody feel good.
(This post was last modified: 12-13-2016 06:25 PM by Owl 69/70/75.)
12-13-2016 06:17 PM
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RiceLad15 Online
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Post: #88
RE: Trump Administration
What's it like to have all the answers all the time?
12-13-2016 07:59 PM
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Post: #89
RE: Trump Administration
Priebus has said Trump will nominate his SC pick around inauguration time.

Here's a crazy idea: he should renominate Garland. Garland is a moderate and highly praised by many Senate Republicans right up to the moment Obama nominated him.

Senate Republicans refusal to allow even a hearing or vote on him is a huge symbol to Dems of the contempt shown by the Right to our first black president. The fact that they were talking about not voting on any of *Clinton's* nominees if she won is just stunning.

Renominating Garland would put some actual substance into his claim he wants to be President for all Americans, and show he's not a typical Republican.

As it stands now, I'd support the Dems filibustering any SC nominee, because I feel the Republicans essentially stole this one. Many Dems feel the same. The Garland move would probably make the Dems more amenable to approving later nominees that come up.

Predicted chance of happening: 1.2%
12-14-2016 01:34 PM
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Owl 69/70/75 Online
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Post: #90
RE: Trump Administration
(12-14-2016 01:34 PM)JustAnotherAustinOwl Wrote:  Priebus has said Trump will nominate his SC pick around inauguration time.
Here's a crazy idea: he should renominate Garland. Garland is a moderate and highly praised by many Senate Republicans right up to the moment Obama nominated him.
Senate Republicans refusal to allow even a hearing or vote on him is a huge symbol to Dems of the contempt shown by the Right to our first black president. The fact that they were talking about not voting on any of *Clinton's* nominees if she won is just stunning.
Renominating Garland would put some actual substance into his claim he wants to be President for all Americans, and show he's not a typical Republican.
As it stands now, I'd support the Dems filibustering any SC nominee, because I feel the Republicans essentially stole this one. Many Dems feel the same. The Garland move would probably make the Dems more amenable to approving later nominees that come up.
Predicted chance of happening: 1.2%

Interesting idea. But Garland is no moderate. He's moderate on a few issues, but left of left on others. He has been deferential to government expansion, which some might view as "conservative" but I do not. His stances on the EPA and gun control put him on the left. I'm not aware of any similar conservative stances.

How about this as an alternative? Replace Scalia with a conservative to keep pre-existing balance. Announce Garland as the appointment to replace Ginsburg, if and when, or whoever else is the next leftist justice to leave. How would the left like that?

One thing I'd very much like to see him do is get away from the intellectual inbreeding. Every justice save one (Kennedy, Ninth) came out of the First, Second, Third, or DC Circuits, and every justice save perhaps one attended either Harvard or Yale law schools (Ginsburg graduated from Columbia, but 2/3 of her legal education was at Harvard, before her husband's job moved them to NYC). I'd like to see a provision that every new justice to be appointed come out of a previously unrepresented district, until we have a SC that is truly representative. Since we have 11 judicial districts, I'd favor a law that increased the court to 11, required that every district have one member of the court, and that as interim measures, 1) R's and D's each get to appoint one for immediate confirmation (OK, defaulting to the two parties goes against my libertarianism a bit, but we would need a practical solution here and this looks like the best one), and 2) each new appointee (including the D & R appointees in the prior part) must come from a previously unrepresented circuit, until all circuits are represented. After that, each seat would become de facto assigned to a particular circuit (so Kennedy's would be the Ninth Circuit seat, etc.). To include the DC circuit, we could add a 12th, provide that the senior justice automatically becomes chief justice, and provide that the chief justice votes only in the event of a tie (which could happen only if there is a vacancy or some justice recuses). Is there a single justice right now who came to the SC from any state that voted for Trump?
(This post was last modified: 12-14-2016 02:10 PM by Owl 69/70/75.)
12-14-2016 02:05 PM
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Post: #91
RE: Trump Administration
There hasn't been a Democratic Chief Justice since 1953.
12-14-2016 02:26 PM
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Post: #92
RE: Trump Administration
(12-14-2016 01:34 PM)JustAnotherAustinOwl Wrote:  Priebus has said Trump will nominate his SC pick around inauguration time.

Here's a crazy idea: he should renominate Garland. Garland is a moderate and highly praised by many Senate Republicans right up to the moment Obama nominated him.

Senate Republicans refusal to allow even a hearing or vote on him is a huge symbol to Dems of the contempt shown by the Right to our first black president. The fact that they were talking about not voting on any of *Clinton's* nominees if she won is just stunning.

Renominating Garland would put some actual substance into his claim he wants to be President for all Americans, and show he's not a typical Republican.

As it stands now, I'd support the Dems filibustering any SC nominee, because I feel the Republicans essentially stole this one. Many Dems feel the same. The Garland move would probably make the Dems more amenable to approving later nominees that come up.

Predicted chance of happening: 1.2%

Agree with you on the above, but not sure what Obama being black has to do with anything. I think you'd be hard-pressed to say that Republicans' opposition towards Obama's policies is due to him being black.
(This post was last modified: 12-14-2016 03:15 PM by westsidewolf1989.)
12-14-2016 03:14 PM
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Post: #93
RE: Trump Administration
(12-14-2016 03:14 PM)westsidewolf1989 Wrote:  Agree with you on the above, but not sure what Obama being black has to do with anything. I think you'd be hard-pressed to say that Republicans' opposition towards Obama's policies is due to him being black.

Republican opposition was based more on the socialist/communist nature of many of his proposals. I do see something of a tangential relationship, in that as a young black male, Obama was was probably predetermined to favor many socialist/communist beliefs, and therefore his race helped shape him to adopt policies that republicans abhorred. But that's more of an incidental or coincidental relationship, and clearly not a causal one.
(This post was last modified: 12-14-2016 05:39 PM by Owl 69/70/75.)
12-14-2016 04:17 PM
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RiceLad15 Online
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Post: #94
RE: Trump Administration
(12-14-2016 04:17 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(12-14-2016 03:14 PM)westsidewolf1989 Wrote:  Agree with you on the above, but not sure what Obama being black has to do with anything. I think you'd be hard-pressed to say that Republicans' opposition towards Obama's policies is due to him being black.

Republican opposition was based more on the socialist/communist nature of many of his proposals. I do see something of a tangential relationship, in that as a young black male, Obama was was probably predetermined to favor many socialist/communist beliefs, and therefore his race helped shape him to adopt policies that republicans abhorred. But that's more of an incidental or coincidnetal relationship, and clearly not a causal one.

Opposition was probably some of that, mixed with the general disdain for Democrats (the other team), and some racism. If there hadn't been things like the birther movement, him being a secret Muslim, comments from political opponents about "shuckin' and jivin'", then I would buy that race played absolutely 0 role in obstruction. But since all those things happened, it's pretty clear that for many, race was a factor.

Now, that is not to say it was the only factor, or even close to being the most important factor for anyone, but yeah, some people really didn't like him because of his race.
12-14-2016 04:33 PM
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Post: #95
RE: Trump Administration
(12-14-2016 04:33 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  
(12-14-2016 04:17 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(12-14-2016 03:14 PM)westsidewolf1989 Wrote:  Agree with you on the above, but not sure what Obama being black has to do with anything. I think you'd be hard-pressed to say that Republicans' opposition towards Obama's policies is due to him being black.

Republican opposition was based more on the socialist/communist nature of many of his proposals. I do see something of a tangential relationship, in that as a young black male, Obama was was probably predetermined to favor many socialist/communist beliefs, and therefore his race helped shape him to adopt policies that republicans abhorred. But that's more of an incidental or coincidnetal relationship, and clearly not a causal one.

Opposition was probably some of that, mixed with the general disdain for Democrats (the other team), and some racism. If there hadn't been things like the birther movement, him being a secret Muslim, comments from political opponents about "shuckin' and jivin'", then I would buy that race played absolutely 0 role in obstruction. But since all those things happened, it's pretty clear that for many, race was a factor.

Now, that is not to say it was the only factor, or even close to being the most important factor for anyone, but yeah, some people really didn't like him because of his race.


Yeah, some of them thar backwoods hillbillys. Not the movers and skakers.

We are about to see some real obstructionism. It won't be racial either.
12-14-2016 05:35 PM
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Owl 69/70/75 Online
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Post: #96
RE: Trump Administration
(12-14-2016 04:33 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  
(12-14-2016 04:17 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(12-14-2016 03:14 PM)westsidewolf1989 Wrote:  Agree with you on the above, but not sure what Obama being black has to do with anything. I think you'd be hard-pressed to say that Republicans' opposition towards Obama's policies is due to him being black.
Republican opposition was based more on the socialist/communist nature of many of his proposals. I do see something of a tangential relationship, in that as a young black male, Obama was was probably predetermined to favor many socialist/communist beliefs, and therefore his race helped shape him to adopt policies that republicans abhorred. But that's more of an incidental or coincidental relationship, and clearly not a causal one.
Opposition was probably some of that, mixed with the general disdain for Democrats (the other team), and some racism. If there hadn't been things like the birther movement, him being a secret Muslim, comments from political opponents about "shuckin' and jivin'", then I would buy that race played absolutely 0 role in obstruction. But since all those things happened, it's pretty clear that for many, race was a factor.
Now, that is not to say it was the only factor, or even close to being the most important factor for anyone, but yeah, some people really didn't like him because of his race.

If you are saying that some, as opposed to none, opposed him because of race, I'm sure there were a few. But I would be willing to bet that his race got him more votes than it cost him. It would have been by far the strongest reason why I would have considered him, but the socialist/communist policies totally turned me off.
12-14-2016 05:55 PM
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RiceLad15 Online
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Post: #97
RE: Trump Administration
(12-14-2016 05:35 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  
(12-14-2016 04:33 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  
(12-14-2016 04:17 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(12-14-2016 03:14 PM)westsidewolf1989 Wrote:  Agree with you on the above, but not sure what Obama being black has to do with anything. I think you'd be hard-pressed to say that Republicans' opposition towards Obama's policies is due to him being black.

Republican opposition was based more on the socialist/communist nature of many of his proposals. I do see something of a tangential relationship, in that as a young black male, Obama was was probably predetermined to favor many socialist/communist beliefs, and therefore his race helped shape him to adopt policies that republicans abhorred. But that's more of an incidental or coincidnetal relationship, and clearly not a causal one.

Opposition was probably some of that, mixed with the general disdain for Democrats (the other team), and some racism. If there hadn't been things like the birther movement, him being a secret Muslim, comments from political opponents about "shuckin' and jivin'", then I would buy that race played absolutely 0 role in obstruction. But since all those things happened, it's pretty clear that for many, race was a factor.

Now, that is not to say it was the only factor, or even close to being the most important factor for anyone, but yeah, some people really didn't like him because of his race.


Yeah, some of them thar backwoods hillbillys. Not the movers and skakers.

We are about to see some real obstructionism. It won't be racial either.

You're right, I don't think say, Mitch "I vow to make Obama a one-term president" McConnell opposed him because Mr. Turtle is a racist, he did so because Obama plays for the other team. It wasn't even that he was so radical (hint, Obama's policies are not that radical), it was simply because he was a Dem. But there were still politicians and people of influence across all levels of government and society who did let Obama's race play a roll in how they felt about him, and to try and deny that, to me, is a bit astonishing.

Luckily, those people were not the majority by any stretch of the imagination, but they were loud. You had a number of Reps eventually come out publicly against racist remarks like the birther movement, which helps show that officials like John McCain actually just disagree with some fundamental policy choices. But there are plenty of examples of acts/ideas rooted in racism that were put forth during his presidency, like Sarah Palin talking about shuckin' and jivin', Gingrich trying to tie Obama's views back to Kenyan anti-colonial behavior (as if no born-in-America person could have similar views to Obama), the entire birther movement (which was eventually squashed by most Republicans), comments about how Obama was a secret Muslim, and so on.

The big thing that I think points too many people to cry racism against Obama was that it seemed like an unprecedented level of disrespect was leveled at him during his presidency, especially when compared to other presidents. The infamous "You lie!" outburst and Jan Brewer wagging a finger in his face come to mind immediately. I think a lot of people incorrectly attribute those actions to racism as opposed to what is more likely the polarization caused by our self-selecting bubbles that appear to be getting bigger.
12-14-2016 06:07 PM
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RiceLad15 Online
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Post: #98
RE: Trump Administration
(12-14-2016 05:55 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(12-14-2016 04:33 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  
(12-14-2016 04:17 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(12-14-2016 03:14 PM)westsidewolf1989 Wrote:  Agree with you on the above, but not sure what Obama being black has to do with anything. I think you'd be hard-pressed to say that Republicans' opposition towards Obama's policies is due to him being black.
Republican opposition was based more on the socialist/communist nature of many of his proposals. I do see something of a tangential relationship, in that as a young black male, Obama was was probably predetermined to favor many socialist/communist beliefs, and therefore his race helped shape him to adopt policies that republicans abhorred. But that's more of an incidental or coincidental relationship, and clearly not a causal one.
Opposition was probably some of that, mixed with the general disdain for Democrats (the other team), and some racism. If there hadn't been things like the birther movement, him being a secret Muslim, comments from political opponents about "shuckin' and jivin'", then I would buy that race played absolutely 0 role in obstruction. But since all those things happened, it's pretty clear that for many, race was a factor.
Now, that is not to say it was the only factor, or even close to being the most important factor for anyone, but yeah, some people really didn't like him because of his race.

If you are saying that some, as opposed to none, opposed him because of race, I'm sure there were a few. But I would be willing to bet that his race got him more votes than it cost him. It would have been by far the strongest reason why I would have considered him, but the socialist/communist policies totally turned me off.

No doubt about the vote getting. I think race in the election helped more than it hurt.

But as I pointed out in my other posts, there were too many racially tinged comments/statements during his time as president to think that no one of importance didn't dislike him because they just dislike black people. Plus, we could then get into the whole implicit vs explicit racism conversation as well.

On a similar note, Malcolm Gladwell in his first podcats called Revisionist History talked about the concept of "moral licensing" in which good deed is invariably followed by a bad one, and could also help explain some of the backlash. In the podcast he specifically discusses this idea in relation to Julia Gillard, the first female PM of Australia, and focuses the absolute torrent of sexist and misogynistic crap she dealt with being the first female PM of Australia. If you haven't seen some clips of her dressing down Tony Abbot, I suggest the highlights get a look: https://www.theguardian.com/world/video/...nist-video
12-14-2016 06:23 PM
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Post: #99
RE: Trump Administration
(12-14-2016 06:23 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  
(12-14-2016 05:55 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  If you are saying that some, as opposed to none, opposed him because of race, I'm sure there were a few. But I would be willing to bet that his race got him more votes than it cost him. It would have been by far the strongest reason why I would have considered him, but the socialist/communist policies totally turned me off.

No doubt about the vote getting. I think race in the election helped more than it hurt.

Absolutely. In 2008, a similar political newcomer who was white would almost certainly not have gotten the Democratic nomination over Hillary Clinton.
12-14-2016 06:48 PM
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RiceLad15 Online
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RE: Trump Administration
(12-14-2016 06:48 PM)georgewebb Wrote:  
(12-14-2016 06:23 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  
(12-14-2016 05:55 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  If you are saying that some, as opposed to none, opposed him because of race, I'm sure there were a few. But I would be willing to bet that his race got him more votes than it cost him. It would have been by far the strongest reason why I would have considered him, but the socialist/communist policies totally turned me off.

No doubt about the vote getting. I think race in the election helped more than it hurt.

Absolutely. In 2008, a similar political newcomer who was white would almost certainly not have gotten the Democratic nomination over Hillary Clinton.

Eh, I don't know if I would go that far. Clinton still suffered from the same problems she did in 2016, so, IMO, a young, energetic politician of any color who could sell and hope and change could have won.
12-14-2016 06:51 PM
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