(11-10-2016 04:15 PM)UTSAMarineVet09 Wrote:  

Hey you didn't use the term butthurt. At least there is some shred of creativity amongst the deplorables.

That guy is the king of RINOs in Ohio.

(11-10-2016 04:02 PM)b0ndsj0ns Wrote:  I'm gonna laugh my ass off when Trump ends up governing like the Liberal he is on a whole lot of issues.

I sort of expect him to do that, too. Just one reason among many why I didn't vote for him and have no emotional investment in his presidency.

The selection of Blackwell is an indication that we may have been mistaken, however.

(11-10-2016 04:18 PM)Kruciff Wrote:  

(11-10-2016 04:15 PM)UTSAMarineVet09 Wrote:  

Hey you didn't use the term butthurt. At least there is some shred of creativity amongst the deplorables.

(11-10-2016 04:02 PM)b0ndsj0ns Wrote:  I'm gonna laugh my ass off when Trump ends up governing like the Liberal he is on a whole lot of issues.

Gowdy as a possible AG, Ken Blackwell to head his transition team. So far so good buddy.

(11-10-2016 04:15 PM)200yrs2late Wrote:  

(11-10-2016 04:02 PM)b0ndsj0ns Wrote:  I'm gonna laugh my ass off when Trump ends up governing like the Liberal he is on a whole lot of issues.

I expect he will be very middle of the road in the end. Looking back 4 or 8 years from now there will probably be a lot of similarities between a Trump presidency and Bill Clinton's.

I think the same thing, that he will be the Republican's Clinton. At least he can be if he wants to be.

I think he can and might pull the Republican party toward the center on some things they just absolutely need to be pulled to the center on...where the party doesn't align with even most of their own voters.

It's going to make some Republicans here very angry, but it probably has to be done, just like Clinton had to do with a party that had suffered historical annihilation at the presidential polls. If the Republicans are smart they'll let him do it, claim nominal principled opposition, and let him take the hit.

I think he can pull toward center a little bit on gun control, race/police issues, and ironically on deportation/path to citizenship/amnesty to get an immigration deal.

I think he can hold the current line on taxes, judges and abortion. If he holds on those three things, very few people will be willing to dies on those other hills, if not being outright happy to be off of them.

Clinton shed Democratic platform opposition to the death penalty like it was just another secret service agent trying to track his late night whereabouts. I'm waiting to see if we get the same anywhere from Trump.

(11-10-2016 03:41 PM)Kruciff Wrote:  

(11-10-2016 03:35 PM)SuperFlyBCat Wrote:  Ken Blackwell, I thought Trump was a racist?

http://www.dispatch.com/content/stories/...-team.html

Quote:As chief elections officer, Blackwell played a pivotal role in administering the hotly-contested 2004 presidential election while serving as Republican George W. Bush's honorary campaign co-chair. Democrats alleged in political attacks and lawsuits that Blackwell supported vote-suppressing policies favoring Bush, who won the state and the election.

Sounds like the perfect guy for a Trump office.

Quote:...on the boards of the National Rifle Association and Club for Growth. He's also a senior fellow at the Family Research Council.

Ah yes, thus begins the dissolving of the Separation of Church and State. Should have known better, Mike Pence wants to turn the U.S. into a Christian Pakistan.

You have no idea how the Founders thought about the separation of church and state. They were against a state church, not the representation of Christianity in the government.

(11-10-2016 04:33 PM)rath v2.0 Wrote:  

(11-10-2016 04:18 PM)Kruciff Wrote:  

(11-10-2016 04:15 PM)UTSAMarineVet09 Wrote:  

Hey you didn't use the term butthurt. At least there is some shred of creativity amongst the deplorables.

(11-10-2016 04:47 PM)HarmonOliphantOberlanderDevine Wrote:  

(11-10-2016 03:41 PM)Kruciff Wrote:  

(11-10-2016 03:35 PM)SuperFlyBCat Wrote:  Ken Blackwell, I thought Trump was a racist?

http://www.dispatch.com/content/stories/...-team.html

Quote:As chief elections officer, Blackwell played a pivotal role in administering the hotly-contested 2004 presidential election while serving as Republican George W. Bush's honorary campaign co-chair. Democrats alleged in political attacks and lawsuits that Blackwell supported vote-suppressing policies favoring Bush, who won the state and the election.

Sounds like the perfect guy for a Trump office.

Quote:...on the boards of the National Rifle Association and Club for Growth. He's also a senior fellow at the Family Research Council.

Ah yes, thus begins the dissolving of the Separation of Church and State. Should have known better, Mike Pence wants to turn the U.S. into a Christian Pakistan.

You have no idea how the Founders thought about the separation of church and state. They were against a state church, not the representation of Christianity in the government.

Benjamin Franklin, Thomas Jefferson, and John Adams disagree with you.

I like it.

(11-10-2016 04:49 PM)rath v2.0 Wrote:  I like it.

Ohio in the house woot woot

(11-10-2016 04:15 PM)200yrs2late Wrote:  

(11-10-2016 04:02 PM)b0ndsj0ns Wrote:  I'm gonna laugh my ass off when Trump ends up governing like the Liberal he is on a whole lot of issues.

I expect he will be very middle of the road in the end. Looking back 4 or 8 years from now there will probably be a lot of similarities between a Trump presidency and Bill Clinton's.

I'd like him to be more conservative on a great many things than I fear he will be, but as long as he sticks to his SC list or (hopefully more conservative picks), I will be content with my vote.

Agreed. Supreme Court, repeal Obamacare, reverse the Obama open doors immigration policy, end the attack on energy jobs.

(11-10-2016 04:46 PM)Lou_C Wrote:  [Trump] will be the Republican's Clinton. At least he can be if he wants to be.

It's going to make some Republicans here very angry, but it probably has to be done, just like Clinton had to do with a party that had suffered historical annihilation at the presidential polls... Clinton shed Democratic platform opposition to the death penalty like it was just another secret service agent trying to track his late night whereabouts.

Is there any other issue besides the death-penalty where Clinton went against the base of his party?

(11-10-2016 04:52 PM)Native Georgian Wrote:  

(11-10-2016 04:46 PM)Lou_C Wrote:  [Trump] will be the Republican's Clinton. At least he can be if he wants to be.

It's going to make some Republicans here very angry, but it probably has to be done, just like Clinton had to do with a party that had suffered historical annihilation at the presidential polls... Clinton shed Democratic platform opposition to the death penalty like it was just another secret service agent trying to track his late night whereabouts.

Is there any other issue besides the death-penalty where Clinton went against the base of his party?

welfare reform.

(11-10-2016 04:49 PM)Kruciff Wrote:  

(11-10-2016 04:47 PM)HarmonOliphantOberlanderDevine Wrote:  

(11-10-2016 03:41 PM)Kruciff Wrote:  

(11-10-2016 03:35 PM)SuperFlyBCat Wrote:  Ken Blackwell, I thought Trump was a racist?

http://www.dispatch.com/content/stories/...-team.html

Quote:As chief elections officer, Blackwell played a pivotal role in administering the hotly-contested 2004 presidential election while serving as Republican George W. Bush's honorary campaign co-chair. Democrats alleged in political attacks and lawsuits that Blackwell supported vote-suppressing policies favoring Bush, who won the state and the election.

Sounds like the perfect guy for a Trump office.

Quote:...on the boards of the National Rifle Association and Club for Growth. He's also a senior fellow at the Family Research Council.

Ah yes, thus begins the dissolving of the Separation of Church and State. Should have known better, Mike Pence wants to turn the U.S. into a Christian Pakistan.

You have no idea how the Founders thought about the separation of church and state. They were against a state church, not the representation of Christianity in the government.

Benjamin Franklin, Thomas Jefferson, and John Adams disagree with you.

“Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people”. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.”
– John Adams

Jefferson was not present at the Constitutional Convention or not did he sign the Constitution. Yet he signed the Northwest Ordinance which states, "Religion, morality and knowledge being necessary to good government and the happiness of mankind"

In addition, the wall separation statement was to reassure a Baptist group that a state church would not be established. Religion in those times in America referred to Christianity.

Ben Franklin called for prayers before meetings of the Constitutional Convention.

(11-10-2016 04:59 PM)HarmonOliphantOberlanderDevine Wrote:  

(11-10-2016 04:49 PM)Kruciff Wrote:  

(11-10-2016 04:47 PM)HarmonOliphantOberlanderDevine Wrote:  

(11-10-2016 03:41 PM)Kruciff Wrote:  

(11-10-2016 03:35 PM)SuperFlyBCat Wrote:  Ken Blackwell, I thought Trump was a racist?

http://www.dispatch.com/content/stories/...-team.html

Quote:As chief elections officer, Blackwell played a pivotal role in administering the hotly-contested 2004 presidential election while serving as Republican George W. Bush's honorary campaign co-chair. Democrats alleged in political attacks and lawsuits that Blackwell supported vote-suppressing policies favoring Bush, who won the state and the election.

Sounds like the perfect guy for a Trump office.

Quote:...on the boards of the National Rifle Association and Club for Growth. He's also a senior fellow at the Family Research Council.

Ah yes, thus begins the dissolving of the Separation of Church and State. Should have known better, Mike Pence wants to turn the U.S. into a Christian Pakistan.

You have no idea how the Founders thought about the separation of church and state. They were against a state church, not the representation of Christianity in the government.

Benjamin Franklin, Thomas Jefferson, and John Adams disagree with you.

“Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people”. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.”
– John Adams

Jefferson was not present at the Constitutional Convention or not did he sign the Constitution. Yet he signed the Northwest Ordinance which states, "Religion, morality and knowledge being necessary to good government and the happiness of mankind"

In addition, the wall separation statement was to reassure a Baptist group that a state church would not be established. Religion in those times in America referred to Christianity.

Ben Franklin called for prayers before meetings of the Constitutional Convention.

That's gonna leave a mark.

(11-10-2016 04:59 PM)HarmonOliphantOberlanderDevine Wrote:  

(11-10-2016 04:49 PM)Kruciff Wrote:  

(11-10-2016 04:47 PM)HarmonOliphantOberlanderDevine Wrote:  

(11-10-2016 03:41 PM)Kruciff Wrote:  

(11-10-2016 03:35 PM)SuperFlyBCat Wrote:  Ken Blackwell, I thought Trump was a racist?

http://www.dispatch.com/content/stories/...-team.html

Quote:As chief elections officer, Blackwell played a pivotal role in administering the hotly-contested 2004 presidential election while serving as Republican George W. Bush's honorary campaign co-chair. Democrats alleged in political attacks and lawsuits that Blackwell supported vote-suppressing policies favoring Bush, who won the state and the election.

Sounds like the perfect guy for a Trump office.

Quote:...on the boards of the National Rifle Association and Club for Growth. He's also a senior fellow at the Family Research Council.

Ah yes, thus begins the dissolving of the Separation of Church and State. Should have known better, Mike Pence wants to turn the U.S. into a Christian Pakistan.

You have no idea how the Founders thought about the separation of church and state. They were against a state church, not the representation of Christianity in the government.

Benjamin Franklin, Thomas Jefferson, and John Adams disagree with you.

“Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people”. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.”
– John Adams

Jefferson was not present at the Constitutional Convention or not did he sign the Constitution. Yet he signed the Northwest Ordinance which states, "Religion, morality and knowledge being necessary to good government and the happiness of mankind"

In addition, the wall separation statement was to reassure a Baptist group that a state church would not be established. Religion in those times in America referred to Christianity.

Ben Franklin called for prayers before meetings of the Constitutional Convention.

Quote:As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion...

-John Adams

Quote:I think vital religion has always suffered when orthodoxy is more regarded than virtue. The scriptures assure me that at the last day we shall not be examined on what we thought but what we did.

- Benjamin Franklin, letter to his father, 1738

Quote:The clergy...believe that any portion of power confided to me [as President] will be exerted in opposition to their schemes. And they believe rightly: for I have sworn upon the altar of God, eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man. But this is all they have to fear from me: and enough, too, in their opinion.

-Thomas Jefferson to Benjamin Rush, 1800.

(11-10-2016 04:54 PM)bullet Wrote:  

(11-10-2016 04:52 PM)Native Georgian Wrote:  Is there any other issue besides the death-penalty where Clinton went against the base of his party?

welfare reform.

Yes and no.

True, the Clintons were willing to use words like "welfare reform" and "super-predator" as talking-points in their campaigns. Just doing that was offensive to the Prog/Left core. But Clinton and the Dem-Congress certainly didn't touch the issue in '93/'94. Then to almost everyone's shock, the GOP took over Congress and passed a welfare-reform bill. Clinton vetoed it. Congress then passed a second welfare-reform bill that was tailored to meet most of Clinton's demands, but he vetoed it a second time, anyway.

The GOP Congress then passed a third welfare-reform bill that was more stringent and more deeply opposed by Democrats than either of the first two bills. The GOP figured Clinton would veto it again, and then GOP candidates could use that as an issue in the campaign. But at this point Clinton's longtime pollster/friend/consultant Dick Morris warned him that a 3rd veto would damage his re-election prospects (Clinton was running ahead of Dole by about 12-15 pts. at the time). Clinton signed the bill and (of course) claimed credit for solving the problem. A few of Clinton's left-wing friends denounced him for this. Not many, but a few.

(11-10-2016 05:08 PM)Kruciff Wrote:  

(11-10-2016 04:59 PM)HarmonOliphantOberlanderDevine Wrote:  

(11-10-2016 04:49 PM)Kruciff Wrote:  

(11-10-2016 04:47 PM)HarmonOliphantOberlanderDevine Wrote:  

(11-10-2016 03:41 PM)Kruciff Wrote:  Sounds like the perfect guy for a Trump office.


Ah yes, thus begins the dissolving of the Separation of Church and State. Should have known better, Mike Pence wants to turn the U.S. into a Christian Pakistan.

You have no idea how the Founders thought about the separation of church and state. They were against a state church, not the representation of Christianity in the government.

Benjamin Franklin, Thomas Jefferson, and John Adams disagree with you.

“Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people”. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.”
– John Adams

Jefferson was not present at the Constitutional Convention or not did he sign the Constitution. Yet he signed the Northwest Ordinance which states, "Religion, morality and knowledge being necessary to good government and the happiness of mankind"

In addition, the wall separation statement was to reassure a Baptist group that a state church would not be established. Religion in those times in America referred to Christianity.

Ben Franklin called for prayers before meetings of the Constitutional Convention.

Quote:As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion...

-John Adams

Quote:I think vital religion has always suffered when orthodoxy is more regarded than virtue. The scriptures assure me that at the last day we shall not be examined on what we thought but what we did.

- Benjamin Franklin, letter to his father, 1738

Quote:The clergy...believe that any portion of power confided to me [as President] will be exerted in opposition to their schemes. And they believe rightly: for I have sworn upon the altar of God, eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man. But this is all they have to fear from me: and enough, too, in their opinion.

-Thomas Jefferson to Benjamin Rush, 1800.

Let's a line from a treaty which is often taken out of context.
According to Frank Lambert, Professor of History at Purdue University, the assurances in Article 11 were "intended to allay the fears of the Muslim state by insisting that religion would not govern how the treaty was interpreted and enforced. John Adams and the Senate made clear that the pact was between two sovereign states, not between two religious powers." Lambert writes,
"By their actions, the Founding Fathers made clear that their primary concern was religious freedom, not the advancement of a state religion. Individuals, not the government, would define religious faith and practice in the United States. Thus the Founders ensured that in no official sense would America be a Christian Republic. Ten years after the Constitutional Convention ended its work, the country assured the world that the United States was a secular state, and that its negotiations would adhere to the rule of law, not the dictates of the Christian faith. The assurances were contained in the Treaty of Tripoli of 1797 and were intended to allay the fears of the Muslim state by insisting that religion would not govern how the treaty was interpreted and enforced. John Adams and the Senate made clear that the pact was between two sovereign states, not between two religious powers

Interestingly, a treaty signed in 1805 doesn't have that line.

Your example is from 1738. Benjamin Franklin's father wanted to be in the clergy and he had trouble with his family. Some bitterness lingered. My example is from late in his life and directly relates to the creation of our government.

Thomas Jefferson often spoke against the clergy but he did say this, " Had the doctrines of Jesus been preached always as pure as they came from his lips, the whole civilized world would now have been Christians."

He also wrote to Benjamin Rush in 1803, "My views... are the result of a life of inquiry and reflection and very different from the Anti-Christian system imputed to me by those who know nothing of my opinions. To the corruptions of Christianity I am, indeed, opposed; but not to the genuine precepts of Jesus himself. I am a Christian in the only sense in which he wished any one to be; sincerely attached to his doctrines in preference to all others."

Many Founding Fathers rightly were worried about state churches but they were in support of Christianity.