(08-14-2016 05:22 PM)Hood-rich Wrote:  Free trade is pretty much a disaster for anybody not in the upper class.

Free trade has resulted in a substantial increase of the standard of living of all Americans. On a net basis, the US has benefited from trade.

Honest to goodness Socratic thank you. You try and I honestly appreciate it. I can see the rise of standard of living but I think it's only in certain areas. I think you live around where my Dad grew up. Oswego area. I remember traveling there as a kid. Caterpillar and other industrial manufacturing. Kodak. All of that area is gone now. I travelled through there a couple of years back. A lot of area has been turned into vineyards. You could sell me on some points of global trade but I think for the vast majority it's been harmful. Places like Fostoria OH. Bellevue,OH. Marion, OH. These places are shells of their former selves. Galion. Places in Ohio that used to manufacture. I'm sure Michigan has seen the same thing.

(08-14-2016 06:48 PM)QuestionSocratic Wrote:  

(08-14-2016 05:22 PM)Hood-rich Wrote:  Free trade is pretty much a disaster for anybody not in the upper class.

Free trade has resulted in a substantial increase of the standard of living of all Americans. On a net basis, the US has benefited from trade.

Net basis = Average.... Highest of highs and lowest of lows. Those on the middle got ******.

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The problem is not free trade. The problem is our existing tax and regulatory policies. That's where the big differences lie. A plant does not move to Mexico rather than saying here because of NAFTA. It was never going tasty here because of theta and regulatory policies. What NAFTA did was cause the plot to move to Mexico instead of, oh, Thailand or wherever.

And keep in mind that many of those moves are to Europe, where the usual boogey men of the left, starvation wages and loose environmental standards, are not factors. Even more, many of those "moves" aren't moves at all. The plant is simply started up in Europe instead of here. Those don't make sob stories for newspaper headlines, but they are job losses just the same.

If you want to bring manufacturing jobs back, start by enacting a consumption tax. Then cut income tax rates to world levels. That will bring about a major change in the way multinationals look at the economics of deals.

(08-14-2016 07:44 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  The problem is not free trade. The problem is our existing tax and regulatory policies. That's where the big differences lie. A plant does not move to Mexico rather than saying here because of NAFTA. It was never going tasty here because of theta and regulatory policies. What NAFTA did was cause the plot to move to Mexico instead of, oh, Thailand or wherever.

And keep in mind that many of those moves are to Europe, where the usual boogey men of the left, starvation wages and loose environmental standards, are not factors. Even more, many of those "moves" aren't moves at all. The plant is simply started up in Europe instead of here. Those don't make sob stories for newspaper headlines, but they are job losses just the same.

If you want to bring manufacturing jobs back, start by enacting a consumption tax. Then cut income tax rates to world levels. That will bring about a major change in the way multinationals look at the economics of deals.

Youve repeated this almost verbatim a hundred times. Why have free trade in the first place when our tax system is this fckd up? You know as well as I do nobody has the balls to change it. So why cut deals with crapholes knowing we have the short end of the stick. Why do we keep doing all this idiotic **** propping up the rest of the world?

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(08-14-2016 07:59 PM)Hood-rich Wrote:  

(08-14-2016 07:44 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  The problem is not free trade. The problem is our existing tax and regulatory policies. That's where the big differences lie. A plant does not move to Mexico rather than saying here because of NAFTA. It was never going tasty here because of theta and regulatory policies. What NAFTA did was cause the plot to move to Mexico instead of, oh, Thailand or wherever. And keep in mind that many of those moves are to Europe, where the usual boogey men of the left, starvation wages and loose environmental standards, are not factors. Even more, many of those "moves" aren't moves at all. The plant is simply started up in Europe instead of here. Those don't make sob stories for newspaper headlines, but they are job losses just the same.
If you want to bring manufacturing jobs back, start by enacting a consumption tax. Then cut income tax rates to world levels. That will bring about a major change in the way multinationals look at the economics of deals.

Youve repeated this almost verbatim a hundred times. Why have free trade in the first place when our tax system is this fckd up? You know as well as I do nobody has the balls to change it. So why cut deals with crapholes knowing we have the short end of the stick. Why do we keep doing all this idiotic **** propping up the rest of the world?
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There's certainly an argument to be made there. But in a world where free trade agreements are becoming more and more the norm, we run some risk of cutting ourselves off, like 18th century Japan or modern North Korea. Probably not a huge risk, after all we are a huge market. But not zero risk either.

Obviously, the solution is to fix the tax and other provisions that drive investment offshore. But you are right, the political will to do that does not appear to be present. Bowles-Simpson and Domenici-Rivlin both recommended that, as a way to reduce the deficit, and Domenici-Rivlin even included a national consumption tax. But nobody on capitol hill gave either of them a chance.

(08-14-2016 01:03 PM)Machiavelli Wrote:  http://www.nytimes.com/2016/08/14/opinio...ction&_r=0


There is a cascade of prominent Republicans endorsing Hillary, donating to Hillary, appearing in Hillary ads, talking up Hillary’s charms.
...
As Republican strategist Steve Schmidt noted on MSNBC, “the candidate in the race most like George W. Bush and Dick Cheney from a foreign policy perspective is in fact Hillary Clinton, not the Republican nominee.”
And that’s how Republicans prefer their crazy — not like Trump, but like Cheney.

You could argue Hillary is closer to being both Obama and Cheney than Trump.

No one should be taken aback that neocons would prefer Hillary.

Sorry but I just dont believe that there are nations not interested in doing business with the USA regardless of an agreement. It goes against all logic. We have 350 million consumers.

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(08-14-2016 08:24 PM)Hood-rich Wrote:  Sorry but I just dont believe that there are nations not interested in doing business with the USA regardless of an agreement. It goes against all logic. We have 350 million consumers.

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More the problem would be nations erecting trade barriers to keep out our exports to them. If you want an economy that consists of going to Wal-Mart to buy stuff made in China, then we would be great. But we wouldn't have many middle class jobs left.

(08-14-2016 08:27 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(08-14-2016 08:24 PM)Hood-rich Wrote:  Sorry but I just dont believe that there are nations not interested in doing business with the USA regardless of an agreement. It goes against all logic. We have 350 million consumers.

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More the problem would be nations erecting trade barriers to keep out our exports to them. If you want an economy that consists of going to Wal-Mart to buy stuff made in China, then we would be great. But we wouldn't have many middle class jobs left.

How is that much different than what we have now? Been to Walmart lately? I dont mind paying a little more as long as people have work. Globalism (and yes, taxes) is killing what used to be middle America. You cant have both free trade and high taxation.

Honest, hard working people in MANY areas of the country are doing whatever they can to get by. Odd jobs, self sufficiency... most of them want work but it just isnt there anymore. Lucky for my cousins, they are handy with cars and almost anything around the house. The not so honest people... Lots of sad stories.The problem isnt isolated to the Rust Belt.

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(08-14-2016 08:33 PM)Hood-rich Wrote:  How is that much different than what we have now? Been to Walmart lately?

It's not different from what we have now. I want something different from what we have now. That means we have to change to attract investment.

(08-14-2016 08:36 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(08-14-2016 08:33 PM)Hood-rich Wrote:  How is that much different than what we have now? Been to Walmart lately?

It's not different from what we have now. I want something different from what we have now. That means we have to change to attract investment.

Fwiw, I want to significantly lower taxes and cut spending even more.

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odd. the democrat nominee is supported by republicans, and the republican nominee was a democrat last July.

someone consult nostradamus or revelations, and see if this means we're finally coming to the end of the movie.

(08-14-2016 08:27 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(08-14-2016 08:24 PM)Hood-rich Wrote:  Sorry but I just dont believe that there are nations not interested in doing business with the USA regardless of an agreement. It goes against all logic. We have 350 million consumers.

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More the problem would be nations erecting trade barriers to keep out our exports to them. If you want an economy that consists of going to Wal-Mart to buy stuff made in China, then we would be great. But we wouldn't have many middle class jobs left.

I'm all about free & fair trade. That being said, there are some countries that would implode into a chaotic civil war if they decided to block our imports and we did the same.

You are not negotiating from a position of strength if you lay out what we wont do, such as block imports like we get blocked. Or block imports if the currency is manipulated. You have no position of power to get a country to back off of it.

(08-14-2016 01:49 PM)UofMstateU Wrote:  Hillary likes to start wars, this we can agree with. Unfortunately, she's not been very effective at winning them. or even barely losing. She and Obama gets their asses handed to them.

Since FDR, Has there been any Democrats effective at winning a war. JFK might have been close in Cuba but the Bay of Pigs Nixed that one.

(08-14-2016 06:48 PM)QuestionSocratic Wrote:  

(08-14-2016 05:22 PM)Hood-rich Wrote:  Free trade is pretty much a disaster for anybody not in the upper class.

Free trade has resulted in a substantial increase of the standard of living of all Americans. On a net basis, the US has benefited from trade.

Tell that to a factory worker who lost his job.

(08-15-2016 05:59 AM)firmbizzle Wrote:  

(08-14-2016 06:48 PM)QuestionSocratic Wrote:  

(08-14-2016 05:22 PM)Hood-rich Wrote:  Free trade is pretty much a disaster for anybody not in the upper class.

Free trade has resulted in a substantial increase of the standard of living of all Americans. On a net basis, the US has benefited from trade.

Tell that to a factory worker who lost his job.

I'll be glad to. Can you provide an email?

(08-15-2016 07:24 AM)QuestionSocratic Wrote:  

(08-15-2016 05:59 AM)firmbizzle Wrote:  

(08-14-2016 06:48 PM)QuestionSocratic Wrote:  

(08-14-2016 05:22 PM)Hood-rich Wrote:  Free trade is pretty much a disaster for anybody not in the upper class.

Free trade has resulted in a substantial increase of the standard of living of all Americans. On a net basis, the US has benefited from trade.

Tell that to a factory worker who lost his job.

I'll be glad to. Can you provide an email?

His work email no longer is active because his job moved to China!

(08-15-2016 07:27 AM)firmbizzle Wrote:  

(08-15-2016 07:24 AM)QuestionSocratic Wrote:  

(08-15-2016 05:59 AM)firmbizzle Wrote:  

(08-14-2016 06:48 PM)QuestionSocratic Wrote:  

(08-14-2016 05:22 PM)Hood-rich Wrote:  Free trade is pretty much a disaster for anybody not in the upper class.

Free trade has resulted in a substantial increase of the standard of living of all Americans. On a net basis, the US has benefited from trade.

Tell that to a factory worker who lost his job.

I'll be glad to. Can you provide an email?

His work email no longer is active because his job moved to China!

The US doesn't have a free trade agreement with China.

(08-14-2016 01:49 PM)UofMstateU Wrote:  Hillary likes to start wars, this we can agree with. Unfortunately, she's not been very effective at winning them. or even barely losing. She and Obama gets their asses handed to them.

Has any President in the last 70 years been good at winning wars?

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