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Is this a dumb Idea..... ???
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Fitbud Offline
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Post: #21
Re: RE: Is this a dumb Idea..... ???
(07-28-2016 07:47 PM)Kaplony Wrote:  
(07-28-2016 07:36 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  
(07-28-2016 11:23 AM)Hambone10 Wrote:  
(07-28-2016 09:23 AM)Fitbud Wrote:  Im not following. Its the law to steal money from S.S.

Not one dime has been 'stolen' from SS or anything else. This is one of those silly political stories we've been told.

The money held 'in trust' for SS and Medicare etc, like virtually all other 'money' only really exists on a balance sheet. There is no 'lock box' no matter what Al Gore told you. It is a general ledger accounting item. Those deposit items are paid interest (by law)... thus they purchase 'debt' issued by the government and earn the interest that the government pays. It would seem silly for the government to borrow billions from China and investors to cover our debt, and then issue additional debt that we don't need to issue simply so that we can pay interest to our 'depositors'... so instead, we let social security invest in our 'normal' debt.

The reason we buy this 'lock box' story is because there are few situations in personal or even corporate finance where such a thing would exist... but to NOT do this would be like a corporation taking investors money and paying them a return on that money, but not using that money to further the corporations goals... instead, borrowing OTHER money to do so.



Having said that, the premise is at least somewhat similarly false on its face. How can money be used to pay down debt, but not spent on any of the items that created the debt in the first place? What about it stops them from generating even more debt that this tax would have to cover? Money is too fungible.

Does this mean you disagree with my link?

I'm not Hambone but I disagree with your link. Reagan didn't do anything any different than any other President before him or after who had a surplus after that year's obligations had been met. He did exactly what the law required him to do.

Theres that "But everybodys doing it " defense again.
07-28-2016 07:50 PM
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Kaplony Offline
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Post: #22
RE: Is this a dumb Idea..... ???
(07-28-2016 07:50 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  
(07-28-2016 07:47 PM)Kaplony Wrote:  
(07-28-2016 07:36 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  
(07-28-2016 11:23 AM)Hambone10 Wrote:  
(07-28-2016 09:23 AM)Fitbud Wrote:  Im not following. Its the law to steal money from S.S.

Not one dime has been 'stolen' from SS or anything else. This is one of those silly political stories we've been told.

The money held 'in trust' for SS and Medicare etc, like virtually all other 'money' only really exists on a balance sheet. There is no 'lock box' no matter what Al Gore told you. It is a general ledger accounting item. Those deposit items are paid interest (by law)... thus they purchase 'debt' issued by the government and earn the interest that the government pays. It would seem silly for the government to borrow billions from China and investors to cover our debt, and then issue additional debt that we don't need to issue simply so that we can pay interest to our 'depositors'... so instead, we let social security invest in our 'normal' debt.

The reason we buy this 'lock box' story is because there are few situations in personal or even corporate finance where such a thing would exist... but to NOT do this would be like a corporation taking investors money and paying them a return on that money, but not using that money to further the corporations goals... instead, borrowing OTHER money to do so.



Having said that, the premise is at least somewhat similarly false on its face. How can money be used to pay down debt, but not spent on any of the items that created the debt in the first place? What about it stops them from generating even more debt that this tax would have to cover? Money is too fungible.

Does this mean you disagree with my link?

I'm not Hambone but I disagree with your link. Reagan didn't do anything any different than any other President before him or after who had a surplus after that year's obligations had been met. He did exactly what the law required him to do.

Theres that "But everybodys doing it " defense again.

What part of "He did what the law required him to do" do you not understand? Are you that damn stupid?
07-28-2016 07:55 PM
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Fitbud Offline
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Post: #23
Re: RE: Is this a dumb Idea..... ???
(07-28-2016 07:55 PM)Kaplony Wrote:  
(07-28-2016 07:50 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  
(07-28-2016 07:47 PM)Kaplony Wrote:  
(07-28-2016 07:36 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  
(07-28-2016 11:23 AM)Hambone10 Wrote:  Not one dime has been 'stolen' from SS or anything else. This is one of those silly political stories we've been told.

The money held 'in trust' for SS and Medicare etc, like virtually all other 'money' only really exists on a balance sheet. There is no 'lock box' no matter what Al Gore told you. It is a general ledger accounting item. Those deposit items are paid interest (by law)... thus they purchase 'debt' issued by the government and earn the interest that the government pays. It would seem silly for the government to borrow billions from China and investors to cover our debt, and then issue additional debt that we don't need to issue simply so that we can pay interest to our 'depositors'... so instead, we let social security invest in our 'normal' debt.

The reason we buy this 'lock box' story is because there are few situations in personal or even corporate finance where such a thing would exist... but to NOT do this would be like a corporation taking investors money and paying them a return on that money, but not using that money to further the corporations goals... instead, borrowing OTHER money to do so.



Having said that, the premise is at least somewhat similarly false on its face. How can money be used to pay down debt, but not spent on any of the items that created the debt in the first place? What about it stops them from generating even more debt that this tax would have to cover? Money is too fungible.

Does this mean you disagree with my link?

I'm not Hambone but I disagree with your link. Reagan didn't do anything any different than any other President before him or after who had a surplus after that year's obligations had been met. He did exactly what the law required him to do.

Theres that "But everybodys doing it " defense again.

What part of "He did what the law required him to do" do you not understand? Are you that damn stupid?

You didnt read the article did you?
07-28-2016 08:03 PM
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Kaplony Offline
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Post: #24
RE: Is this a dumb Idea..... ???
(07-28-2016 08:03 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  
(07-28-2016 07:55 PM)Kaplony Wrote:  
(07-28-2016 07:50 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  
(07-28-2016 07:47 PM)Kaplony Wrote:  
(07-28-2016 07:36 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  Does this mean you disagree with my link?

I'm not Hambone but I disagree with your link. Reagan didn't do anything any different than any other President before him or after who had a surplus after that year's obligations had been met. He did exactly what the law required him to do.

Theres that "But everybodys doing it " defense again.

What part of "He did what the law required him to do" do you not understand? Are you that damn stupid?

You didnt read the article did you?
Sure I did. It evidently did it's job since you are using it as your entire foundation for your argument. It's sole purpose was to deceive the ignorant and it obviously worked perfectly.

Do you honestly believe that Reagan could have gotten away with what the article claims he did with a House of Representatives where the Democrats held a 63% majority? If so I need your contact information because do I have some deals that might interest you.
07-28-2016 08:11 PM
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Fitbud Offline
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Post: #25
Re: RE: Is this a dumb Idea..... ???
(07-28-2016 08:11 PM)Kaplony Wrote:  
(07-28-2016 08:03 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  
(07-28-2016 07:55 PM)Kaplony Wrote:  
(07-28-2016 07:50 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  
(07-28-2016 07:47 PM)Kaplony Wrote:  I'm not Hambone but I disagree with your link. Reagan didn't do anything any different than any other President before him or after who had a surplus after that year's obligations had been met. He did exactly what the law required him to do.

Theres that "But everybodys doing it " defense again.

What part of "He did what the law required him to do" do you not understand? Are you that damn stupid?

You didnt read the article did you?
Sure I did. It evidently did it's job since you are using it as your entire foundation for your argument. It's sole purpose was to deceive the ignorant and it obviously worked perfectly.

Do you honestly believe that Reagan could have gotten away with what the article claims he did with a House of Representatives where the Democrats held a 63% majority? If so I need your contact information because do I have some deals that might interest you.

I posted a link explaining exactly what I claimed. If it isnt true then post a link that disputes it.
07-28-2016 08:13 PM
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Kaplony Offline
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Post: #26
RE: Is this a dumb Idea..... ???
(07-28-2016 08:13 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  
(07-28-2016 08:11 PM)Kaplony Wrote:  
(07-28-2016 08:03 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  
(07-28-2016 07:55 PM)Kaplony Wrote:  
(07-28-2016 07:50 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  Theres that "But everybodys doing it " defense again.

What part of "He did what the law required him to do" do you not understand? Are you that damn stupid?

You didnt read the article did you?
Sure I did. It evidently did it's job since you are using it as your entire foundation for your argument. It's sole purpose was to deceive the ignorant and it obviously worked perfectly.

Do you honestly believe that Reagan could have gotten away with what the article claims he did with a House of Representatives where the Democrats held a 63% majority? If so I need your contact information because do I have some deals that might interest you.

I posted a link explaining exactly what I claimed. If it isnt true then post a link that disputes it.

http://www.cbpp.org/research/social-secu...rust-funds

Quote:Few budgetary concepts generate as much unintended confusion and deliberate misinformation as the Social Security trust funds. Political candidates of both parties accuse their opponents of “raiding” the trust funds.[1] Some writers disparage the trust funds as “funny money,” “IOUs,” or a “fiction.”[2] All these claims are nonsense. In fact, the Social Security trust funds are invested in Treasury securities that are every bit as sound as the U.S. government securities held by investors around the globe; investors regard those securities as being among the world’s very safest investments.

Quote:In years when Social Security collects more in payroll taxes and other income than it pays in benefits and other expenses — as it has each year since 1984 — the Treasury invests the surplus in interest-bearing Treasury bonds and other Treasury securities. Social Security can redeem these bonds whenever needed to pay benefits. The balances in the trust funds thus provide legal authority to pay Social Security benefits when the Social Security program’s current income is insufficient by itself.

Quote:Is the Federal Government “Raiding” the Trust Funds?

No. Some critics have suggested that the lending of Social Security trust fund reserves to the Treasury represents a misuse of those funds. This view reflects a misunderstanding of how the Treasury manages the federal government’s finances.

When the rest of the budget is in deficit, a Social Security cash surplus allows the government to borrow less from the public to finance the deficit. (The “public” encompasses all lenders other than federal trust funds, including U.S. individuals and institutions, the Federal Reserve System, and foreign investors.) The Treasury always uses whatever cash is on hand — whether from Social Security contributions or other earmarked or non-earmarked sources — to meet its current obligations before engaging in additional borrowing from the public. There is no sensible alternative to this practice. After all, why should the Treasury borrow funds when it has cash in the till?

Back in 1938, the first Advisory Council on Social Security — a group of independent experts appointed to review the program’s long-term finances — firmly endorsed the investment of Social Security surpluses in Treasury securities:

The United States Treasury uses the moneys realized from the issuance of these special securities by the old-age reserve account in the same manner as it does moneys realized from the sale of other Government securities. As long as the budget is not balanced, the net result is to reduce the amounts which the Government has to borrow from banks, insurance companies and other private parties. When the budget is balanced, these moneys will be available for the reduction of the national debt held by the public. The members of the Advisory Council are in agreement that the fulfillment of the promises made to the wage earners included in the old age insurance system depends upon, more than anything else, the financial integrity of the Government. The members of the Council, regardless of differing views on other aspects of the financing of old-age insurance, are of the opinion that the present provisions regarding the investment of the moneys in the old-age reserve account do not involve any misuse of these moneys or endanger the safety of these funds.[6]

Other Advisory Councils have reached the same conclusion.

Money that the federal government borrows from the public or from Social Security is used to finance the ongoing operations of the government in the same way that money deposited in a bank is used to finance spending by consumers and businesses. In neither case does this represent a “raid” or misuse of the funds. The bank depositor will get his or her money back when needed, and so will the Social Security trust funds.

When Social Security needs to start cashing in its holdings of Treasury securities to meet its benefit obligations, the federal government will have to increase its borrowing from the public, or raise taxes or spend less. That will be a concern for the Treasury — but not for Social Security, as long as the solvency of the federal government itself is not called into question. Social Security will be able to sell its bonds just as any private investor might do.[7]
07-28-2016 08:19 PM
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Fitbud Offline
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Post: #27
RE: Is this a dumb Idea..... ???
The information you posted clearly says that SS did not see a surplus in funds until every year after 1984. That is because of the SS amendment of 1984 where they started pulling more funds from the tax payers. While that money was supposed to go into a trust fund, it never did because it went to pay for Reagans wars and tax cuts.
07-28-2016 08:31 PM
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Kaplony Offline
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Post: #28
RE: Is this a dumb Idea..... ???
(07-28-2016 08:31 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  The information you posted clearly says that SS did not see a surplus in funds until every year after 1984. That is because of the SS amendment of 1984 where they started pulling more funds from the tax payers. While that money was supposed to go into a trust fund, it never did because it went to pay for Reagans wars and tax cuts.

It does not say that at all.

Quote:In years when Social Security collects more in payroll taxes and other income than it pays in benefits and other expenses — as it has each year since 1984 — the Treasury invests the surplus in interest-bearing Treasury bonds and other Treasury securities. Social Security can redeem these bonds whenever needed to pay benefits.

Quote:Social Security has run a surplus in every year since 1984, as was anticipated when Congress enacted and President Reagan signed the legislation based on the recommendations of the Greenspan Commission in 1983. The authors of the 1983 legislation purposely designed program financing in this manner to help pre-fund some of the costs of the baby boomers’ retirement.

It says that Social Security has run at a surplus since 1984, that I will give you. But nowhere on the page linked does it state that prior to that Social Security did not run surpluses.
07-28-2016 09:26 PM
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Post: #29
RE: Is this a dumb Idea..... ???
Social Security is a Ponzi scheme. All ponzi schemes generate a surplus right until the moment they go supernova.
07-28-2016 09:31 PM
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Fitbud Offline
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Post: #30
RE: Is this a dumb Idea..... ???
Kaplony

Let me explain it to you like you were 5. Reagan signed legislation that raised taxes to increase SS funds, then he turned around and tripled the deficit. Guess where the money came from to make up for that deficit?
07-29-2016 12:13 AM
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Kaplony Offline
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Post: #31
RE: Is this a dumb Idea..... ???
(07-29-2016 12:13 AM)Fitbud Wrote:  Kaplony

Let me explain it to you like you were 5. Reagan signed legislation that raised taxes to increase SS funds, then he turned around and tripled the deficit. Guess where the money came from to make up for that deficit?

Fitbud...let me break it down for you Barney style. What was done with the surplus money is what is required by law. I've told you that. Hambone has told you that. Owl has told you that. Any surplus is SS funds has to be turned into Treasury securities as specified by US law.


Reagan raised SS taxes because the aging population and declining SS revenue required it or else there wouldn't have been a SS surplus reserve at all. Had he not it would have probably been broke by now, especially with the leftist policies making it so well over a third of the population either can't find a fulltime job or is content to live off the government's teat.
07-29-2016 12:32 AM
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Fitbud Offline
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Post: #32
Re: RE: Is this a dumb Idea..... ???
(07-29-2016 12:32 AM)Kaplony Wrote:  
(07-29-2016 12:13 AM)Fitbud Wrote:  Kaplony

Let me explain it to you like you were 5. Reagan signed legislation that raised taxes to increase SS funds, then he turned around and tripled the deficit. Guess where the money came from to make up for that deficit?

Fitbud...let me break it down for you Barney style. What was done with the surplus money is what is required by law. I've told you that. Hambone has told you that. Owl has told you that. Any surplus is SS funds has to be turned into Treasury securities as specified by US law.


Reagan raised SS taxes because the aging population and declining SS revenue required it or else there wouldn't have been a SS surplus reserve at all. Had he not it would have probably been broke by now, especially with the leftist policies making it so well over a third of the population either can't find a fulltime job or is content to live off the government's teat.

Nope. Reagan signed into law an ammendment to existing SS law that created a surplus for the next 6 years. He used that surplus "on budget" so that he could spend it immediately to fund his wars and tax cuts. That had never been done before and was stopped in 1990 so it hasnt been do since.
07-29-2016 12:37 AM
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Kaplony Offline
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Post: #33
RE: Is this a dumb Idea..... ???
(07-29-2016 12:37 AM)Fitbud Wrote:  
(07-29-2016 12:32 AM)Kaplony Wrote:  
(07-29-2016 12:13 AM)Fitbud Wrote:  Kaplony

Let me explain it to you like you were 5. Reagan signed legislation that raised taxes to increase SS funds, then he turned around and tripled the deficit. Guess where the money came from to make up for that deficit?

Fitbud...let me break it down for you Barney style. What was done with the surplus money is what is required by law. I've told you that. Hambone has told you that. Owl has told you that. Any surplus is SS funds has to be turned into Treasury securities as specified by US law.


Reagan raised SS taxes because the aging population and declining SS revenue required it or else there wouldn't have been a SS surplus reserve at all. Had he not it would have probably been broke by now, especially with the leftist policies making it so well over a third of the population either can't find a fulltime job or is content to live off the government's teat.

Nope. Reagan signed into law an ammendment to existing SS law that created a surplus for the next 6 years. He used that surplus "on budget" so that he could spend it immediately to fund his wars and tax cuts. That had never been done before and was stopped in 1990 so it hasnt been do since.

https://www.ssa.gov/policy/docs/ssb/v75n1/v75n1p1.html

Quote:Social Security benefits are paid from the reserves of the Old-Age, Survivors, and Disability Insurance (OASDI) trust fund. The reserves are funded from dedicated tax revenues and interest on accumulated reserve holdings, which are invested in Treasury securities. These cash flows—the tax income, the investment (and redemption) of the securities, the interest on the invested reserves, and the payment of benefits—become critically important when reserves are low relative to benefit payments, as occurred in 1983. In 2015, reserves are large enough that cash flow will not be a problem for the trust fund for almost 20 years.

https://www.ssa.gov/policy/docs/ssb/v66n1/v66n1p1.html

Quote:Large benefit increases, a new benefit formula that was erroneously generous, and other changes in the early 1970s created a situation in which annual program costs, as a share of gross domestic product, increased during a 12-year period from about 3 percent to 5 percent. In 1977, amendments to the Act corrected the flawed benefit formula and made other changes in the financing of the system to shore up the program. Thus, the 1970s represent a watershed in the program's history—program growth gave way to increasing concerns about the program's finances.

Those concerns were reflected in the amendments to the Act in 1983, which were the last major changes to the program. These amendments, based largely on recommendations from a commission chaired by Alan Greenspan, adjusted benefits and taxes to address pressing near-term financing problems faced by the system. Although the Greenspan Commission focused to a large extent on short-range issues, the resulting reforms have generated large surpluses in the program and the buildup of a substantial trust fund. However, the looming retirement of the baby boomers and several other demographic factors will, according to projections, result in the exhaustion of the trust fund by 2042.

Quote:The last major amendments to the Social Security Act occurred in 1983.17 The amendments of 1983 are unusual in one sense: they were necessitated by severe short-term financial problems, but they have resulted in the long-run buildup of a large trust fund that will be drawn down as the baby boomers retire. The trust fund buildup has reignited debates, not heard since the 1940s, about reserve funding.

The amendments of 1983, to a large extent, followed the recommendation of the National Commission on Social Security Reform (commonly known as the Greenspan Commission after its chairman Alan Greenspan). The difficulties that led to the creation of the Greenspan Commission were economic in nature and largely unforeseen. Following the amendments of 1977, forecasts indicated that the system would be characterized by (marginally) adequate funds in the near term and surpluses in the 1990s and early 21st century. The economic conditions of the late 1970s and early 1980s exposed the near-term vulnerabilities of the amendments of 1977 (Myers 1996). This period was characterized by higher-than-expected inflation (which increased benefit payments) and lower-than-expected wages (which lowered payroll tax receipts). At the time of the Greenspan Commission, projections indicated that, by July 1983, revenues and trust fund assets would be insufficient to make benefit payments (National Commission on Social Security Reform 1983, Appendix J).
07-29-2016 12:51 AM
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Fitbud Offline
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Post: #34
RE: Is this a dumb Idea..... ???
What you have posted is simply the reason for the legislation in 1983. What you fail to post is that once Reagan made it law, he spent the surplus on his wars and tax cuts.

We agree on the need to reform SS. What you fail to recognize is that as soon as that surplus was realized, it was not saved for baby boomers but rather spent on Reagans wars and tax cuts.
07-29-2016 01:01 AM
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Post: #35
RE: Is this a dumb Idea..... ???
Ending some of these wars and cutting unnecessary military expenditure v would help. Buy whatcwe need and stop supplying the military with useless excess we sell on the cheap to foreign entities years down the line. All they do is use it against us anyway.
07-29-2016 01:04 AM
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Kaplony Offline
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Post: #36
RE: Is this a dumb Idea..... ???
(07-29-2016 01:01 AM)Fitbud Wrote:  What you have posted is simply the reason for the legislation in 1983. What you fail to post is that once Reagan made it law, he spent the surplus on his wars and tax cuts.

We agree on the need to reform SS. What you fail to recognize is that as soon as that surplus was realized, it was not saved for baby boomers but rather spent on Reagans wars and tax cuts.

You are obviously either too stubborn or too stupid to get it since nothing I have read, other than your biased original article that accomplished it's goal of fooling the ignorant, has ever said that Reagan used the surplus for anything other than what the law allows it to be used for.

But since you want to play that game and it's such a problem then why are you so worried about what happened 33 years ago than what are you doing about your President using the surplus now to pay for his wars, etc?
07-29-2016 01:11 AM
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Post: #37
RE: Is this a dumb Idea..... ???
I find it interesting that the author of the article that Fit linked has a biography that describes him as a PhD in Economics. I think he is using a variation of the Paul Krugman argument, "I'm a PhD in Economics, so take everything I say at face value instead of looking up the numbers." I prefer to look up the numbers, and when I do so I find some interesting contradictions.

Let's look at a few points. For one thing, he says that at the time Reagan said SS was teetering on the edge of bankruptcy, it was actually in good shape for two decades. If you understand how defined benefits plans (which is what SS really is) work, you know that "good shape for two decades" is actually the same as "teetering on the edge of bankruptcy." If you're not in sound shape for about 50 years, you're in deep doo doo. That's basically where SS is today, it can probably survive two decades or so, but after that it's pretty much kaput. And the way funding works, if you wait two decades until the problem manifests itself full bore, you are pretty much SOL. Ask General Motors, that's basically what bankrupted them. And yes, GM did go bankrupt. Remember all the stories about how if GM went bankrupt, it would be the end of the American car industry? Well, they did, and it wasn't. Nor was it ever going to be. But they had Uncle Sugar to bail them out. Who is SS's Uncle Sugar?

He also says, "Supply-side economics was not working like Reagan had promised. Instead of the lower tax rates generating more revenues as the supply-siders claimed would happen, there was a dramatic drop in revenue." Really? When? Let's look at the numbers. From 1980 to 1989, encompassing the Reagan years, on-budget federal revenues increased from $517 billion to $991 billion, and off-budget federal revenues increased from $403 billion to $727 billion. Both nearly doubled. Where is the dramatic drop in revenues there? The only year in which there was any drop at all ($617 billion to $600 billion on-budget, and $474 billion to $453 billion off-budget) was 1983, which is the year in which the tax INCREASES passed in 1982 took effect.

Then he makes the argument that the money from SS was supposed to be invested in Treasury bills, but instead went to fund the deficits. Several points here. One, this was Tip O'Neill's doing every bit as much as Reagan's. Reagan wanted to grow the military. The spending in that area ultimately paid off quite handsomely, as we basically spent Russia out of the Cold War, reducing the worldwide danger level and enabling the "peace dividend" that allowed us to reduce the deficit and generate a small surplus in the 1990s. In order to get his military spending, Reagan compromised with democrats and allowed them to ratchet up social welfare spending dramatically. Defense spending went up $170 billion, from $133 billion to $303 billion. At the same time social spending went up $255 billion, from $313 billion to $568 billion. So both parties punched big holes in the budget. Two, Smith tries to make some big deal out of the difference between "investing in Treasury bills" and funding the deficit. Umm, investing in Treasury bills IS funding the deficit. That's why the government issues Treasury bills. There may be some differences between T-bills and IOUs, for one thing T-bills are as he states marketable securities, but in reality neither is any better than the faith and credit of the federal government. If the government defaults on IOU's, T-bills would drop like a rock. This is way more a semantic difference than a substantive one. I guess one can be a PhD in economics without really understanding finance. He seems to think that buying T-bills is some sort of "investment" whereas funding the deficit with IOUs is just throwing the money away. Where does he think the money "invested" in T-bills goes? If you borrow money from a bank, you owe it back; if you borrow money from a friend, you owe it back. The bank may be more formal, like the T-bill, but it's the same person owing the money in either event, and if you don't have the funds to pay one, you don't have the funds to pay the other.

OK, having said that, let me make a couple of things clear about our current situation. I don't like having SS invested heavily in either T-bills or IOUs. Both have exactly the same problem. I find it very interesting that a number of people, primarily on the left, like to argue on the one hand that the accumulated federal debt is no big deal because "much of it is money that we owe ourselves" while arguing on the other hand that "SS is not in trouble because it's backed by the full faith and credit of the US." It's two sides of the same coin. For SS to come good, we have to repay that "money we owe ourselves." If we don't, then SS is not sound. You can argue one or the other, but you can't argue both. And for this purpose, it matters not one whit whether the money owed to SS is in the form of T-bills or IOUs.

We are in a bind on SS now, not necessarily to pay benefits for the next 20 years or so (although that time frame could change a bit based on the economy) but as I said above, if a defined benefit plan is not sound for 50 years, then it is in trouble NOW. So here's what I would do. And this is a compromise, because it includes some things the left wants to do, some things the right wants to do, and some things that "socialist" Sweden does. One, pass a law that recognizes that SS really does consist of accounts that belong to individual citizens. In conjunction with this make SS payments non-taxable again, since you are basically just getting your money back. One thing this should do is buy some goodwill with retirees and others approaching retirement, in order to keep them onboard with some of the other changes. Two, eliminate the cap on taxable SS earnings. This is a relic from the past and makes the SS tax one of the most regressive in our entire tax system. This idea from the left would generate substantially more in SS revenues. Three, ratchet down the growth of benefits. The way I would do it is to keep the low side of benefits growing at the current higher rate (because those are the people who made less money during their lifetimes and therefore really need it), while slowing the rate of growth on the high end (because those are the people who made more money during their working lifetimes and therefore should have more salted away and should need less from SS). Eventually, the two would merge, and from that point forward, move everybody at the higher rate. This has been proposed by both sides in various forms, and would reduce the cost of future benefits. Four, ratchet back the age of eligibility for benefits, one month per year until you hit 70 (so it would phase in over roughly 50 years). Still allow people to elect out at 62, with benefits reduced actuarially, just like now (the reduction would be slightly more severe each year as the standard age ratchets upward). This basically conservative idea would reduce the cost of paying benefits. Five, pay off the IOUs from the general fund by transferring operating assets to SS, which they would then run at a profit--the interstate highway system (which would become a national toll road network, like Europe), the postal service (like New Zealand), TVA and the western water and power authorities (like much of Europe, and not that these would then become vehicles to invest and develop green energy), air traffic control and airports (like Canada and much of Europe). Set them up to earn a 5% annual ROI. I have seen one calculation that the interstate highway system should be able to produce about $50 billion a year in net profits, which would justify a $1 trillion reduction in IOUs by transferring it. The others should also generate significant net income and therefore transferring them should reduce the IOUs to zero. Six, like Sweden, add a privatized portion of SS. I'd say let the rate be 7.5% employer/7.5% employee for basic SS, and add 2.5% each (total 5%) to fund what would basically be a super 401k for every citizen. The left likes to talk about wealth inequality. This would be a way to address it in a huge way. It could invest in those newly privatized activities listed above (which I would see ultimately capitalized something like 1/3 owned by the conventional SS fund, 1/3 owned by the privatized accounts, and 1/3 offered to the general public), in very safe index/mutual funds, and over a certain amount in individual accounts, it could be self-directed investments. Obviously, investment and growth in these accounts would offset to some extent the tapering off of growth in the basic SS benefits, as mentioned in point three above.

Anyway, that's how I would do it. Comments welcome.
(This post was last modified: 07-29-2016 12:14 PM by Owl 69/70/75.)
07-29-2016 08:40 AM
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vandiver49 Offline
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Post: #38
RE: Is this a dumb Idea..... ???
(07-27-2016 10:53 PM)NIU007 Wrote:  Or you could just cut spending across the board, without any sacred cows.

We could, but someone will always stand in front of a social program to defend it.
07-29-2016 08:55 AM
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Fitbud Offline
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Post: #39
Re: RE: Is this a dumb Idea..... ???
(07-29-2016 01:11 AM)Kaplony Wrote:  
(07-29-2016 01:01 AM)Fitbud Wrote:  What you have posted is simply the reason for the legislation in 1983. What you fail to post is that once Reagan made it law, he spent the surplus on his wars and tax cuts.

We agree on the need to reform SS. What you fail to recognize is that as soon as that surplus was realized, it was not saved for baby boomers but rather spent on Reagans wars and tax cuts.

You are obviously either too stubborn or too stupid to get it since nothing I have read, other than your biased original article that accomplished it's goal of fooling the ignorant, has ever said that Reagan used the surplus for anything other than what the law allows it to be used for.

But since you want to play that game and it's such a problem then why are you so worried about what happened 33 years ago than what are you doing about your President using the surplus now to pay for his wars, etc?

Of course you arent going to understand this but Ill give it another shot.

Reagan signed into law, an amendment to SS that increased the income of the program. Then he used the "in budget" provision from the previous 1968 amendment to spend the money. How do I know he spent the money? Because he had a 3 trillion dollar deficit.
07-29-2016 11:11 AM
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Fitbud Offline
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Post: #40
Re: RE: Is this a dumb Idea..... ???
(07-29-2016 08:40 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  I find it interesting that the author of the article that Fit linked has a biography that describes him as a PhD in Economics. I think he is using a variation of the Paul Krugman argument, "I'm a PhD in Economics, so take everything I say at face value instead of looking up the numbers." I prefer to look up the numbers, and when I do so I find some interesting contradictions.

Let's look at a few points. For one thing, he says that at the time Reagan said SS was teetering on the edge of bankruptcy, it was actually in good shape for two decades. If you understand how defined benefits plans (which is what SS really is) work, you know that "good shape for two decades" is actually the same as "teetering on the edge of bankruptcy." If you're not in sound shape for about 50 years, you're in deep doo doo. That's basically where SS is today, it can probably survive two decades or so, but after that it's pretty much kaput. And the way funding works, if you wait two decades until the problem manifests itself full bore, you are pretty much SOL. Ask General Motors, that's basically what bankrupted them. And yes, GM did go bankrupt. Remember all the stories about how if GM went bankrupt, it would be the end of the American car industry? Well, they did, and it wasn't. Nor was it ever going to be. But they had Uncle Sugar to bail them out. Who is SS's Uncle Sugar?

He also says, "Supply-side economics was not working like Reagan had promised. Instead of the lower tax rates generating more revenues as the supply-siders claimed would happen, there was a dramatic drop in revenue." Really? When? Let's look at the numbers. From 1980 to 1989, encompassing the Reagan years, on-budget federal revenues increased from $517 billion to $991 billion, and off-budget federal revenues increased from $403 billion to $727 billion. Both nearly doubled. Where is the dramatic drop in revenues there? The only year in which there was any drop at all ($617 billion to $600 billion on-budget, and $474 billion to $453 billion off-budget) was 1983, which is the year in which the tax INCREASES passed in 1982 took effect.

Then he makes the argument that the money from SS was supposed to be invested in Treasury bills, but instead went to fund the deficits. Several points here. One, this was Tip O'Neill's doing every bit as much as Reagan's. Reagan wanted to grow the military. The spending in that area ultimately paid off quite handsomely, as we basically spent Russia out of the Cold War, reducing the worldwide danger level and enabling the "peace dividend" that allowed us to reduce the deficit and generate a small surplus in the 1990s. In order to get his military spending, Reagan compromised with democrats and allowed them to ratchet up social welfare spending dramatically. Defense spending went up $170 billion, from $133 billion to $303 billion. At the same time social spending went up $255 billion, from $313 billion to $568 billion. So both parties punched big holes in the budget. Two, Smith tries to make some big deal out of the difference between "investing in Treasury bills" and funding the deficit. Umm, investing in Treasury bills IS funding the deficit. That's why the government issues Treasury bills. There may be some differences between T-bills and IOUs, for one thing T-bills are as he states marketable securities, but in reality neither is any better than the faith and credit of the federal government. If the government defaults on IOU's, T-bills would drop like a rock. This is way more a semantic difference than a substantive one. I guess one can be a PhD in economics without really understanding finance. He seems to think that buying T-bills is some sort of "investment" whereas funding the deficit with IOUs is just throwing the money away. Where does he think the money "invested" in T-bills goes? If you borrow money from a bank, you owe it back; if you borrow money from a friend, you owe it back. The bank may be more formal, like the T-bill, but it's the same person owing the money in either event, and if you don't have the funds to pay one, you don't have the funds to pay the other.

OK, having said that, let me make a couple of things clear about our current situation. I don't like having SS invested heavily in either T-bills or IOUs. Both have exactly the same problem. I find it very interesting that a number of people, primarily on the left, like to argue on the one hand that the accumulated federal debt is no big deal because "much of it is money that we owe ourselves" while arguing on the other hand that "SS is not in trouble because it's backed by the full faith and credit of the US." It's two sides of the same coin. For SS to come good, we have to repay that "money we owe ourselves." If we don't, then SS is not sound. You can argue one or the other, but you can't argue both. And for this purpose, it matters not one whit whether the money owed to SS is in the form of T-bills or IOUs.

We are in a bind on SS now, not necessarily to pay benefits for the next 20 years or so (although that time frame could change a bit based on the economy) but as I said above, if a defined benefit plan is not sound for 50 years, then it is in trouble NOW. So here's what I would do. And this is a compromise, because it includes some things the left wants to do, some things the right wants to do, and some things that "socialist" Sweden does. One, pass a law that recognizes that SS really does consist of accounts that belong to individual citizens. One thing this should do is buy some goodwill with retirees and others approaching retirement, in order to keep them onboard with some of the other changes. Two, eliminate the cap on taxable SS earnings. This is a relic from the past and makes the SS tax one of the most regressive in our entire tax system. This idea from the left would generate substantially more in SS revenues. Three, ratchet down the growth of benefits. The way I would do it is to keep the low side of benefits growing at the current higher rate (because those are the people who made less money during their lifetimes and therefore really need it), while slowing the rate of growth on the high end (because those are the people who made more money during their working lifetimes and therefore should have more salted away and should need less from SS). Eventually, the two would merge, and from that point forward, move everybody at the higher rate. This has been proposed by both sides in various forms, and would reduce the cost of future benefits. Four, ratchet back the age of eligibility for benefits, one month per year until you hit 70 (so it would phase in over roughly 50 years). Still allow people to elect out at 62, with benefits reduced actuarially, just like now (the reduction would be slightly more severe each year as the standard age ratchets upward). This basically conservative idea would reduce the cost of paying benefits. Five, pay off the IOUs from the general fund by transferring operating assets to SS, which they would then run at a profit--the interstate highway system (which would become a national toll road network, like Europe), the postal service (like New Zealand), TVA and the western water and power authorities (like much of Europe, and not that these would then become vehicles to invest and develop green energy), air traffic control and airports (like Canada and much of Europe). Set them up to earn a 5% annual ROI. I have seen one calculation that the interstate highway system should be able to produce about $50 billion a year in net profits, which would justify a $1 trillion reduction in IOUs by transferring it. The others should also generate significant net income and therefore transferring them should reduce the IOUs to zero. Six, like Sweden, add a privatized portion of SS. I'd say let the rate be 7.5% employer/7.5% employee for basic SS, and add 2.5% each (total 5%) to fund what would basically be a super 401k for every citizen. The left likes to talk about wealth inequality. This would be a way to address it in a huge way. It could invest in those newly privatized activities listed above (which I would see ultimately capitalized something like 1/3 owned by the conventional SS fund, 1/3 owned by the privatized accounts, and 1/3 offered to the general public), in very safe index/mutual funds, and over a certain amount in individual accounts, it could be self-directed investments. Obviously, investment and growth in these accounts would offset to some extent the tapering off of growth in the basic SS benefits, as mentioned in point three above.

Anyway, that's how I would do it. Comments welcome.

You basically are saying the same thing that me and that PHD are saying. You just painted a prettier picture of it.
07-29-2016 11:15 AM
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