(07-01-2016 12:07 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  

(07-01-2016 11:10 AM)Niner National Wrote:  Human drivers kill hundreds, maybe thousands of people a day.

Tesla very clearly tells you not to take your hands off the wheel. This, for now anyway, is supposed to be like a more advanced version of lane assist that other manufacturers offer. It's not a carte blanche to be a moron on the road.

Unfortunately though, people are terrible, and will willingly put their lives and the lives of others in danger for convenience. We see it every day with people using cell phones while they drive.

And each is in one form or another held responsible.

If Tesla wants to get in between that direct responsibility then it must take its share of responsibility.

Besides, the camera based auto-pilot system is not capable of what it's being asked to do.

that's where law becomes a problem in development.....

not disagreeing in the current version....

it's about how it restricts like religion.....

(07-01-2016 12:10 PM)stinkfist Wrote:  

(07-01-2016 12:07 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  

(07-01-2016 11:10 AM)Niner National Wrote:  Human drivers kill hundreds, maybe thousands of people a day.

Tesla very clearly tells you not to take your hands off the wheel. This, for now anyway, is supposed to be like a more advanced version of lane assist that other manufacturers offer. It's not a carte blanche to be a moron on the road.

Unfortunately though, people are terrible, and will willingly put their lives and the lives of others in danger for convenience. We see it every day with people using cell phones while they drive.

And each is in one form or another held responsible.

If Tesla wants to get in between that direct responsibility then it must take its share of responsibility.

Besides, the camera based auto-pilot system is not capable of what it's being asked to do.

that's where law becomes a problem in development.....

not disagreeing in the current version....

it's about how it restricts like religion.....

There is no progress when you allow responsibility to be abrogated, none.

(07-01-2016 12:10 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  

(07-01-2016 12:10 PM)stinkfist Wrote:  

(07-01-2016 12:07 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  

(07-01-2016 11:10 AM)Niner National Wrote:  Human drivers kill hundreds, maybe thousands of people a day.

Tesla very clearly tells you not to take your hands off the wheel. This, for now anyway, is supposed to be like a more advanced version of lane assist that other manufacturers offer. It's not a carte blanche to be a moron on the road.

Unfortunately though, people are terrible, and will willingly put their lives and the lives of others in danger for convenience. We see it every day with people using cell phones while they drive.

And each is in one form or another held responsible.

If Tesla wants to get in between that direct responsibility then it must take its share of responsibility.

Besides, the camera based auto-pilot system is not capable of what it's being asked to do.

that's where law becomes a problem in development.....

not disagreeing in the current version....

it's about how it restricts like religion.....

There is no progress when you allow responsibility to be abrogated, none.

hence, the overwhelming of numbers and survival....

(07-01-2016 12:02 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  At its core this is not a question of statistics, but of negligence.

Risk reduction and risk management are all about statistics, though. At what point does tort law become more concerned with risk reduction than supposed negligence, and at what point does tort law begin to make our society worse?

The fact is that every manufacturer of anything that is potentially dangerous made a decision to stop spending $$$ to research or build a safer product in order to get it to market, and in doing so, they have put a value on lives that are lost with their product... be it $25 per life, or some number in the millions or billions of dollars per life lost. (Given that Tesla is purportedly a money-losing proposition, they've potentially paid for the privilege of murdering someone).

As a non-lawyer, I'm not sure how you are able to either segregate or reconcile the concepts of negligence and risk-reduction in a case like this, or in the hypothetical that I proposed.

(07-01-2016 12:21 PM)I45owl Wrote:  

(07-01-2016 12:02 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  At its core this is not a question of statistics, but of negligence.

Risk reduction and risk management are all about statistics, though. At what point does tort law become more concerned with risk reduction than supposed negligence, and at what point does tort law begin to make our society worse?

The fact is that every manufacturer of anything that is potentially dangerous made a decision to stop spending $$$ to research or build a safer product in order to get it to market, and in doing so, they have put a value on lives that are lost with their product... be it $25 per life, or some number in the millions or billions of dollars per life lost. (Given that Tesla is purportedly a money-losing proposition, they've potentially paid for the privilege of murdering someone).

As a non-lawyer, I'm not sure how you are able to either segregate or reconcile the concepts of negligence and risk-reduction in a case like this, or in the hypothetical that I proposed.

The two concepts are not as aligned as you would think.

Tort law is about paying for the harm you cause. There are limited aspects of it that seek to control risk or focus on societal gain as a whole but those are reactive instead of proactive for the most part, unlike risk reduction which is proactive. At its core it's individualistic or case specific, not collectivist or statistical.

But, in the hypotheticals you presented tort comes down hard on any company which puts a price on life. Ford and the Pinto fiasco are the most obvious example.

Ultimately, I'm fine with Tesla intervening here and injecting themselves into the situation but that has to also bring with it the proper amount of liability, culpability, and responsibility.

It isn't an issue of denying progress, it's a issue of holding Tesla responsible for their over promising and under-delivering on their technology. A faulty camera based system which puts people in a false sense of ease is not making us safer.

Ultimately, tort in this case is telling you that Tesla is going down a dead-end road, not blocking technological progress.

(07-01-2016 11:10 AM)Niner National Wrote:  Human drivers kill hundreds, maybe thousands of people a day.

Tesla very clearly tells you not to take your hands off the wheel. This, for now anyway, is supposed to be like a more advanced version of lane assist that other manufacturers offer. It's not a carte blanche to be a moron on the road.

Unfortunately though, people are terrible, and will willingly put their lives and the lives of others in danger for convenience. We see it every day with people using cell phones while they drive.

I agree. I was the passenger in a new Genesis last weekend. The driver was showing me how it worked. It stayed between the white lines but after a couple of seconds a loud and clear voice said..."Driver put your hands on the wheel!!" Pretty cool.

(07-01-2016 10:04 AM)DaSaintFan Wrote:  

Quote:“Neither Autopilot nor the driver noticed the white side of the tractor-trailer against a brightly lit sky, so the brake was not applied.

Get ready for a govt mandate saying no tractor trailers can be white now

#whitetrucksmatter

I just read an article in bloomberg magazine that said that Tesla is about to make some big deals. I think it said200k cars by 2018.

There is no reason to fund this charlatan's crap.

(07-01-2016 11:10 AM)Niner National Wrote:  Human drivers kill hundreds, maybe thousands of people a day.

Tesla very clearly tells you not to take your hands off the wheel. This, for now anyway, is supposed to be like a more advanced version of lane assist that other manufacturers offer. It's not a carte blanche to be a moron on the road.

Unfortunately though, people are terrible, and will willingly put their lives and the lives of others in danger for convenience. We see it every day with people using cell phones while they drive.

Lmao.... Dont take your hands off the wheel of auto pilot. What a joke this company is.

(07-01-2016 12:29 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  

(07-01-2016 12:21 PM)I45owl Wrote:  

(07-01-2016 12:02 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  At its core this is not a question of statistics, but of negligence.

Risk reduction and risk management are all about statistics, though. At what point does tort law become more concerned with risk reduction than supposed negligence, and at what point does tort law begin to make our society worse?

The fact is that every manufacturer of anything that is potentially dangerous made a decision to stop spending $$$ to research or build a safer product in order to get it to market, and in doing so, they have put a value on lives that are lost with their product... be it $25 per life, or some number in the millions or billions of dollars per life lost. (Given that Tesla is purportedly a money-losing proposition, they've potentially paid for the privilege of murdering someone).

As a non-lawyer, I'm not sure how you are able to either segregate or reconcile the concepts of negligence and risk-reduction in a case like this, or in the hypothetical that I proposed.

The two concepts are not as aligned as you would think.

Tort law is about paying for the harm you cause. There are limited aspects of it that seek to control risk or focus on societal gain as a whole but those are reactive instead of proactive for the most part, unlike risk reduction which is proactive. At its core it's individualistic or case specific, not collectivist or statistical.

But, in the hypotheticals you presented tort comes down hard on any company which puts a price on life. Ford and the Pinto fiasco are the most obvious example.

Ultimately, I'm fine with Tesla intervening here and injecting themselves into the situation but that has to also bring with it the proper amount of liability, culpability, and responsibility.

It isn't an issue of denying progress, it's a issue of holding Tesla responsible for their over promising and under-delivering on their technology. A faulty camera based system which puts people in a false sense of ease is not making us safer.

Ultimately, tort in this case is telling you that Tesla is going down a dead-end road, not blocking technological progress.

I'll go 'sip ad hoc redirect....

you of all should understand why health care costs have increased (malpractice ins) coupled with dipshite obummercare.....

they are one and the same....

at some point, people just have to die as law MUST be simplified to sustain.....and tech will create both moving forward....

comme ci, comme ça....simple progression as the clock continuously tick-tocks....

(07-01-2016 01:17 PM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  

(07-01-2016 11:10 AM)Niner National Wrote:  Human drivers kill hundreds, maybe thousands of people a day.

Tesla very clearly tells you not to take your hands off the wheel. This, for now anyway, is supposhied to be like a more advanced version of lane assist that other manufacturers offer. It's not a carte blanche to be a moron on the road.

Unfortunately though, people are terrible, and will willingly put their lives and the lives of others in danger for convenience. We see it every day with people using cell phones while they drive.

I agree. I was the passenger in a new Genesis last weekend. The driver was showing me how it worked. It stayed between the white lines but after a couple of seconds a loud and clear voice said..."Driver put your hands on the wheel!!" Pretty cool.

And, thus, with a simple word choice, Hyundai puts themselves at unnecessary risk of liability. Should've used "jacka$$" instead of "driver".

(07-01-2016 06:51 PM)Hood-rich Wrote:  

(07-01-2016 11:10 AM)Niner National Wrote:  Human drivers kill hundreds, maybe thousands of people a day.

Tesla very clearly tells you not to take your hands off the wheel. This, for now anyway, is supposed to be like a more advanced version of lane assist that other manufacturers offer. It's not a carte blanche to be a moron on the road.

Unfortunately though, people are terrible, and will willingly put their lives and the lives of others in danger for convenience. We see it every day with people using cell phones while they drive.

Lmao.... Dont take your hands off the wheel of auto pilot. What a joke this company is.

I think the term "auto pilot" is a very loose description of what these systems actually do.. I think "driver assist" is more accurate.

Tech people are just oblivious to the limitations of their software.

And on top of that, they ignore the vulnerability to hackers. Unlike Clinton, they are fully aware how vulnerable they are when they do stupid things.

I'm a huge supporter of what Tesla is trying to do as far as electric transportation goes, but we're just not ready for self-driving cars yet for any company. Go ahead and try to develop the technology, but there are so many pitfalls to this kind of endeavor that this is a place where overly cautious attitudes must prevail. We have no clue what the stats would look like if half the road was going off automation yet half was still self-drive.

More news says this guy was watching a DVD while driving.

(07-02-2016 10:13 AM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  More news says this guy was watching a DVD while driving.

A Harry Potter movie if I am not mistaken. Poor fool overestimated the capabilities of the technology and it cost him his life. I assume that Tesla had something along the lines of "you really shouldn't trust our software with your life just yet" in the fine print. Expect that print to get bigger.

Tesla's auto-pilot still failed. It just makes people who would do this jackasses. Tesla doesn't get off the hook.

(07-02-2016 10:12 AM)Love and Honor Wrote:  I'm a huge supporter of what Tesla is trying to do as far as electric transportation goes, but we're just not ready for self-driving cars yet for any company. Go ahead and try to develop the technology, but there are so many pitfalls to this kind of endeavor that this is a place where overly cautious attitudes must prevail. We have no clue what the stats would look like if half the road was going off automation yet half was still self-drive.

The problem is that from an information polling POV, the car is its sole data point. The system needs to mimic the collision avoidance systems that planes have. Self driving cars probably need to make up 40% of cars on the road with limited networking before the dream is realized

(07-02-2016 10:57 AM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  Tesla's auto-pilot still failed. It just makes people who would do this jackasses. Tesla doesn't get off the hook.

here's where I argue that there is a reason science is based on trial and error and medicine is prefaced by the word "practicing"

negligence is a whole other issue where the law is req'd

ambulance chasing is only another factory that limits humanity...

capiche?