In theory I say, don't take any more from that than you see. I don't condone covering up crimes or recruiting players that are clear character risks.

That said, in a vacuum, I can't say for certain that I wouldn't do some of the same things. There's a significant amount of pressure to win in intercollegiate athletics where if you try to win the right way and win cleanly you end up like Rice or Tulane. That's fine and dandy if your goal is mostly to mimic Ivy League schools but in the Big 12, to compete with schools like Texas, OU and increasingly OSU (and for a number of years, Nebraska) who have a bottomless pit of resources, you simply can't have a roster of all choir boys.

Unless their goal was to be irrelevant in the Big 12 from 1996 until eternity and be considered a leech who was added due to nepotism, then they had to take some character risks if they wanted any shot at taking down UT, OU, TCU and even OSU and K-State. I wouldn't do what he did sitting here as a random internet poster but with his job depending on him winning or be left dealing with irrational and impatient alumni and donors that want to win at all costs, I can't say for certain I wouldn't do some of what he did although harboring rapists is beyond low and you should dismiss them as soon as something negative comes to light, especially a second chancer like Sam Ukwauchu.

That's a bunch of bullshitt! Talk about losing sight of the big picture! Jesus Christ, some of you people are so perspectiveless it is down frightening! Go talk to the lunatics up at Penn State – you would fit right in with those goofs.

There is a middle ground to be had.

You can win with good kids. Anyone who tells you you can't has never been around a program. They probably all won't be choir boys but they also can't be a bunch of felons.

Baylor is above all else an institution of higher learning. As such, their first responsibility is not to protect the health as well-being of its football program. Rather, it is to protect the health and safety of its student body. If it finds that one aspect of the university is jeopardizing the health and well-being of its students, then it has a fundamental responsibility to address that issue and protect the people keeping it all afloat through their donations and tuition money.

Maybe it is me, maybe I'm the one who doesn't get it? However, if I knew that my favorite school was winning by cheating or by bringing in a bunch of criminals, or in the case of Penn State, hiring coaches who either raped children or help to cover it up, I would have a difficult time embracing that team as my own and in finding any satisfaction whatsoever in those wins.

Again, that is not to say that I think that all of these guys are angels – I don't believe that at all. I understand that some bad people are going to make great athletic plays that thrill us all. However, that's an altogether different animal than going out and actively courting every thug you can find in the name of winning more football games; and then actively covering up their crimes to the point of openly intimidating the rape victims trying to dissuade them from pursuing charges against your hired guns.

In other words, I absolutely blame Art Briles for what happened at Baylor just like I ABSOLUTELY blame Joe Paterno and Jerry Sandusky for the atrocities that occurred at Penn State. Also, any school that hires him going forward (and someone will) is signifying to the world that they don't give a shitt about morals or the health and safety of the girls on their own campus.

Knowing what we now know about the culture of that program, and by extension that university, would you send your precious daughter to Baylor if Briles were still the coach there? If your answer is yes, that's fine. Just know that I think you are a horrible parent and human being.

you mean the little guy can't get ahead simply by working harder and smarter? ok, throw in a little luck too.

But jees, isn't a little cynical to automatically assume you have to cheat or take morally questionable risks to get ahead?

Boise State is keeping their program clean, and win they do. Once a kid gets into trouble? They boot that kid out of school and off the team. If Winston was at Boise State? He would have been booted right away. The latest Boise State player that was booted was arrested and going to trial for biting half of his ex-teammates ear off. Assault charges have been filed against that kid. Look at Boise State is at? All those wins, and a better win/loss record since 2000, and it is better than Baylor ever put together.

Now as for the Big 12? The firing of Art Briles is a wake up call to Bob Stoops, Butch Jones, Mike Gundy, Les Miles and so forth to clean up their act, and get rid of the trouble makers. It is not exclusive to Baylor and the Big 12. Nick Saban at Alabama is busy with their scandal as well with some of their players been arrested recently. NCAA at all levels need to clean up and get rid of the bad players. Look at what we are seeing with NFL players getting into trouble lately? All the problems started while those guys were in high school, and the coaches and recruits turned a blind eye by sweeping the kids past problems under the rug, and bring them to colleges were they continue their rang of terror.

Makes me wonder what he was able to keep buried at Houston.

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(05-29-2016 05:03 PM)Dr. Isaly von Yinzer Wrote:  That's a bunch of bullshitt! Talk about losing sight of the big picture! Jesus Christ, some of you people are so perspectiveless it is down frightening! Go talk to the lunatics up at Penn State – you would fit right in with those goofs.

There is a middle ground to be had.

You can win with good kids. Anyone who tells you you can't has never been around a program. They probably all won't be choir boys but they also can't be a bunch of felons.

Baylor is above all else an institution of higher learning. As such, their first responsibility is not to protect the health as well-being of its football program. Rather, it is to protect the health and safety of its student body. If it finds that one aspect of the university is jeopardizing the health and well-being of its students, then it has a fundamental responsibility to address that issue and protect the people keeping it all afloat through their donations and tuition money.

Maybe it is me, maybe I'm the one who doesn't get it? However, if I knew that my favorite school was winning by cheating or by bringing in a bunch of criminals, or in the case of Penn State, hiring coaches who either raped children or help to cover it up, I would have a difficult time embracing that team as my own and in finding any satisfaction whatsoever in those wins.

Again, that is not to say that I think that all of these guys are angels – I don't believe that at all. I understand that some bad people are going to make great athletic plays that thrill us all. However, that's an altogether different animal than going out and actively courting every thug you can find in the name of winning more football games; and then actively covering up their crimes to the point of openly intimidating the rape victims trying to dissuade them from pursuing charges against your hired guns.

In other words, I absolutely blame Art Briles for what happened at Baylor just like I ABSOLUTELY blame Joe Paterno and Jerry Sandusky for the atrocities that occurred at Penn State. Also, any school that hires him going forward (and someone will) is signifying to the world that they don't give a shitt about morals or the health and safety of the girls on their own campus.

Knowing what we now know about the culture of that program, and by extension that university, would you send your precious daughter to Baylor if Briles were still the coach there? If your answer is yes, that's fine. Just know that I think you are a horrible parent and human being.

The problem runs deeper than Art Briles: each of these universities had grown-ups supposedly providing wise oversight. There's talk here of NCAA and federal sanctions, but no one on this board is discussing the prospects of the Baylor Regents shutting down their corrupt and criminal football program, and with good reason. There's absolutely no chance of the Regents fulfilling their role, of meeting their sworn oaths.

So while I also blame Art Briles, I reserve some of that for Ken Starr and the Baylor Regents.

(05-29-2016 01:20 PM)_C2_ Wrote:  In theory I say, don't take any more from that than you see. I don't condone covering up crimes or recruiting players that are clear character risks.

That said, in a vacuum, I can't say for certain that I wouldn't do some of the same things. There's a significant amount of pressure to win in intercollegiate athletics where if you try to win the right way and win cleanly you end up like Rice or Tulane. That's fine and dandy if your goal is mostly to mimic Ivy League schools but in the Big 12, to compete with schools like Texas, OU and increasingly OSU (and for a number of years, Nebraska) who have a bottomless pit of resources, you simply can't have a roster of all choir boys.

Unless their goal was to be irrelevant in the Big 12 from 1996 until eternity and be considered a leech who was added due to nepotism, then they had to take some character risks if they wanted any shot at taking down UT, OU, TCU and even OSU and K-State. I wouldn't do what he did sitting here as a random internet poster but with his job depending on him winning or be left dealing with irrational and impatient alumni and donors that want to win at all costs, I can't say for certain I wouldn't do some of what he did although harboring rapists is beyond low and you should dismiss them as soon as something negative comes to light, especially a second chancer like Sam Ukwauchu.

Some schools clearly take more risks than others. FSU is one. Tennessee has been one. There's a reason its called the Fulmer Cup. They had a group of 3 go do an armed robbery of a gas station! And Briles took people who got kicked out of other schools for problems that they continued at Baylor.

TCU hasn't had these types of problems (mainly drugs). Oregon has had some issues, but not violence. Utah didn't have these types of problems. Kansas St. under Bill Snyder didn't have these types of problems.

And there's also the issue of how much you tolerate. UGA has clearly brought in some stupid players (witness the run of driving without a license). And they had some who had bigger problems. Nick Marshall stole computer equipment from a fellow football player. He got kicked off the team and ended up starting at Auburn. Zach Mettenberger fondled a waitress and got kicked off the team and ended up starting at LSU.

Notre Dame signed Randy Moss, but he got in a fight in HS and they dropped him. FSU picked him up. But he got into drug problems there and Marshall picked him up. Notre Dame dropped him despite him being someone early on who looked like a superstar.

I don't think you should take character risks. Now maybe Baylor takes more academic risks than a Texas or Notre Dame (and they have a history of that back to the SWC). But character taints the whole university.

These players are representing the university. The coaches should keep that in mind.

You can win without covering up rape. I blame Art, his staff, the AD, and the Baylor President. This ranks down there with Penn State.

Boise State is one that can win, and don't have these types of players on their teams. Yeah, they booted some players off the team after they got arrested, and suspended their QB who went pee outside his hotel room on a balcony. Boise State does not want to look like Baylor.
I never heard any North Dakota State players doing these things either.

Montana booted QB Jordan Johnson because he was charged of raping another female student, but he was acquitted of the charges. But, Montana does not want him back either because of his character, and don't want the Title IX issues. That is why Montana is not on the list because they actively act right away on rape accusations.

Stoops at Oklahoma want to take in trouble kids as well.

It seems the P5 schools mainly care for win at all cost attitude, and take in players who are trouble from the start.

I think there is a big difference between saying I can understand taking some risks or looking the their way to win, and (purposely) allowing that environment to foster.

(05-29-2016 05:03 PM)Dr. Isaly von Yinzer Wrote:  That's a bunch of bullshitt! Talk about losing sight of the big picture! Jesus Christ, some of you people are so perspectiveless it is down frightening! Go talk to the lunatics up at Penn State – you would fit right in with those goofs.

There is a middle ground to be had.

You can win with good kids. Anyone who tells you you can't has never been around a program. They probably all won't be choir boys but they also can't be a bunch of felons.

Baylor is above all else an institution of higher learning. As such, their first responsibility is not to protect the health as well-being of its football program. Rather, it is to protect the health and safety of its student body. If it finds that one aspect of the university is jeopardizing the health and well-being of its students, then it has a fundamental responsibility to address that issue and protect the people keeping it all afloat through their donations and tuition money.

Maybe it is me, maybe I'm the one who doesn't get it? However, if I knew that my favorite school was winning by cheating or by bringing in a bunch of criminals, or in the case of Penn State, hiring coaches who either raped children or help to cover it up, I would have a difficult time embracing that team as my own and in finding any satisfaction whatsoever in those wins.

Again, that is not to say that I think that all of these guys are angels – I don't believe that at all. I understand that some bad people are going to make great athletic plays that thrill us all. However, that's an altogether different animal than going out and actively courting every thug you can find in the name of winning more football games; and then actively covering up their crimes to the point of openly intimidating the rape victims trying to dissuade them from pursuing charges against your hired guns.

In other words, I absolutely blame Art Briles for what happened at Baylor just like I ABSOLUTELY blame Joe Paterno and Jerry Sandusky for the atrocities that occurred at Penn State. Also, any school that hires him going forward (and someone will) is signifying to the world that they don't give a shitt about morals or the health and safety of the girls on their own campus.

Knowing what we now know about the culture of that program, and by extension that university, would you send your precious daughter to Baylor if Briles were still the coach there? If your answer is yes, that's fine. Just know that I think you are a horrible parent and human being.

You say that now but if Pitt had a roster full of Academic All-Americans yet was getting thrashed 52-9 and 37-14 every week and every year, you'd get tired of the losing. Ironically, you'd ask "why don't we have any good players." No one wants to be the embarrassment of their colleagues because their school sucks at the major sports, everyone wants to win now and especially if they are a donor and paying for it or going to games and paying the cost for that.

So there you have it, people will be outraged by a scandal like this but I bet if Baylor was winning 1-2 Big 12 games a year like they were before Briles, they don't get that stadium built and I bet ol' Floyd Casey would be empty except for when Texas, OU and TCU came to town. So which do you want? Poor and outrageed fan support or winning with thugs? You don't have to win with thugs but your chances of comepting in that tough neighborhood increase dramtically by taking chances on them if you're lil' ol' Baylor. The same is true for their (possibly/presumably) cheating basketball program.

As for that last paragraph, my daughter, if I had one, would be way more of a worry going somewhere in the middle of the hood like Spellman, Texas Southern or even UH (it's not as dangerous as people make it out but there is still poverty and crime in the area) than in Waco or most anywhere Briles may go (he likes rural locations). We're talking about a relative few rapes over the course of a few years, there are rapes, date rapes and sexual harrassment on every college campus, let alone crime in general. Rather than shield her, I'd put pressure on the administration to ensure her safety and keep a watchful eye on everyone, whether they are with the chemistry majors or football team, and discipline people sharply.

(05-29-2016 05:43 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  Boise State is keeping their program clean, and win they do. Once a kid gets into trouble? They boot that kid out of school and off the team. If Winston was at Boise State? He would have been booted right away. The latest Boise State player that was booted was arrested and going to trial for biting half of his ex-teammates ear off. Assault charges have been filed against that kid. Look at Boise State is at? All those wins, and a better win/loss record since 2000, and it is better than Baylor ever put together.

Now as for the Big 12? The firing of Art Briles is a wake up call to Bob Stoops, Butch Jones, Mike Gundy, Les Miles and so forth to clean up their act, and get rid of the trouble makers. It is not exclusive to Baylor and the Big 12. Nick Saban at Alabama is busy with their scandal as well with some of their players been arrested recently. NCAA at all levels need to clean up and get rid of the bad players. Look at what we are seeing with NFL players getting into trouble lately? All the problems started while those guys were in high school, and the coaches and recruits turned a blind eye by sweeping the kids past problems under the rug, and bring them to colleges were they continue their rang of terror.

Boise is an exception and besides, they can let anyone in that has a pulse, whereas Baylor at least has some academic standards.

Also, we don't know what people are gonna do until they do it. A choir boy today may turn into Ryan Leaf--err, I mean Johnny Manziel tomorrow. In other words, we'll never rid the game of these types of players.

(05-29-2016 11:44 PM)adcorbett Wrote:  I think there is a big difference between saying I can understand taking some risks or looking the their way to win, and (purposely) allowing that environment to foster.

What's the difference? He knows he can't compete with the Texases and OU's of the world by merely running a completely clean and wholesome operation. He knew the quickest route to winning was taking on character risks short of SMU-SWC style paying of players.

My only issue is that you get rid of them as quickly as possible once the trouble starts, like the Patriots did when they once had Randy Moss. As soon as he reverted back to a-hole Randy, Belichek cut him loose.

(05-29-2016 08:54 PM)bullet Wrote:  These players are representing the university. The coaches should keep that in mind.

LOL, I'm sure they will at the same time they get insulted (and in rare cases, threatened with violence) by fans, parents, alums and even administrators for not winning enough. No one in Louisiana cares about LSU losing to Alabama from February to August but you see in December they were adament about firing a coach that is less than 5 years removed from nearly winning a national title and is pretty much automatic for a top 15 finish.

During football season, no one cares about thugs playing for your favorite team, all they care about is bragging rights and even if some of us care, there's still a sizable enough minority or majority that doesn't.

I coached at every level below college and we let players walk for far less than what Briles overlooked. In my high school coaching years I wasn't as dependent on the salary that the coaches I worked for but they were just as dependent, if not more so, than Briles was on his salary and they chose to do the right thing when it came to questionable players. It cost one of my friends his position not onlyas a coach but as a teacher (and cost me my less than covering the expenses stipend FWIW) for booting players who didn't do right by society. It's far too easy when you get to a position of leadership, like being a coach of young men, to lose sight of what your true job is.....to produce the next generation of productive youngsters to society....because of society's obsession with winning. I don't have anything to be ashamed of in my coaching career. Several state titles in high school ball, more state titles in travel ball. countless high school league regional titles, and one losing season out of fourteen. The thing I'm most proud of is the fact that right now I have eight former players who are either head or assistant coaches at the high school level and three who are student assistants at the college level. THAT'S what defines me.

Going to make a confession here........as a coach I idolized Joe Paterno for the myth that was created for him, and was devastated when he was exposed. I was coaching at the time and it came up in a team meeting because the kids knew I was a big Joe Paterno fan. What made it right for me was when one of my kids said "Hey Coach....Paterno might have been BS'ing everybody but we know you aren't." Between the good citizens I helped produce and the fact that the kids knew I lived what I said is enough for me.

Had I been in the shoes of Art Briles I would have been buying my wife the pontoon she wants with the buyout check. And I would have been perfectly fine with that.

New Yorker article by Malcolm Gladwell (who I'm sure has no favorite CFB, unlike Dr. Isaly). http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2012/0...plain-view

Paterno and PSU football's legacy had little to do with Sandusky's crimes. Please don't compare our sad, sad situation with Baylor's. Apples to oranges.

(05-30-2016 01:31 AM)allthatyoucantleavebehind Wrote:  New Yorker article by Malcolm Gladwell (who I'm sure has no favorite CFB, unlike Dr. Isaly). http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2012/0...plain-view

Paterno and PSU football's legacy had little to do with Sandusky's crimes. Please don't compare our sad, sad situation with Baylor's. Apples to oranges.

Sandusky's crimes began in the 1970's. The idea that Paterno didn't know what what was going on in his football program is mindboggling.

Mindboggling but not completely out of the ordinary. There are secrets about people you've known your entire life that they're good about hiding or covering up, in some cases stuff you just don't want to believe is true. It's not absurd to think people either can't figure out or don't want to figure something is going on beneath their nose, it has certainly happened before in sports because a coach and AD can't be everywhere, otherwise stuff like point shaving scandals and the like would never happen. When everyone clocks out at 5 P.M. and goes home, you don't know what or where they're going or what they're doing.

(05-30-2016 12:04 AM)_C2_ Wrote:  

(05-29-2016 05:03 PM)Dr. Isaly von Yinzer Wrote:  That's a bunch of bullshitt! Talk about losing sight of the big picture! Jesus Christ, some of you people are so perspectiveless it is down frightening! Go talk to the lunatics up at Penn State – you would fit right in with those goofs.

There is a middle ground to be had.

You can win with good kids. Anyone who tells you you can't has never been around a program. They probably all won't be choir boys but they also can't be a bunch of felons.

Baylor is above all else an institution of higher learning. As such, their first responsibility is not to protect the health as well-being of its football program. Rather, it is to protect the health and safety of its student body. If it finds that one aspect of the university is jeopardizing the health and well-being of its students, then it has a fundamental responsibility to address that issue and protect the people keeping it all afloat through their donations and tuition money.

Maybe it is me, maybe I'm the one who doesn't get it? However, if I knew that my favorite school was winning by cheating or by bringing in a bunch of criminals, or in the case of Penn State, hiring coaches who either raped children or help to cover it up, I would have a difficult time embracing that team as my own and in finding any satisfaction whatsoever in those wins.

Again, that is not to say that I think that all of these guys are angels – I don't believe that at all. I understand that some bad people are going to make great athletic plays that thrill us all. However, that's an altogether different animal than going out and actively courting every thug you can find in the name of winning more football games; and then actively covering up their crimes to the point of openly intimidating the rape victims trying to dissuade them from pursuing charges against your hired guns.

In other words, I absolutely blame Art Briles for what happened at Baylor just like I ABSOLUTELY blame Joe Paterno and Jerry Sandusky for the atrocities that occurred at Penn State. Also, any school that hires him going forward (and someone will) is signifying to the world that they don't give a shitt about morals or the health and safety of the girls on their own campus.

Knowing what we now know about the culture of that program, and by extension that university, would you send your precious daughter to Baylor if Briles were still the coach there? If your answer is yes, that's fine. Just know that I think you are a horrible parent and human being.

You say that now but if Pitt had a roster full of Academic All-Americans yet was getting thrashed 52-9 and 37-14 every week and every year, you'd get tired of the losing. Ironically, you'd ask "why don't we have any good players." No one wants to be the embarrassment of their colleagues because their school sucks at the major sports, everyone wants to win now and especially if they are a donor and paying for it or going to games and paying the cost for that.

So there you have it, people will be outraged by a scandal like this but I bet if Baylor was winning 1-2 Big 12 games a year like they were before Briles, they don't get that stadium built and I bet ol' Floyd Casey would be empty except for when Texas, OU and TCU came to town. So which do you want? Poor and outrageed fan support or winning with thugs? You don't have to win with thugs but your chances of comepting in that tough neighborhood increase dramtically by taking chances on them if you're lil' ol' Baylor. The same is true for their (possibly/presumably) cheating basketball program.

Its not an either / or thing.

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(05-30-2016 12:36 AM)_C2_ Wrote:  Boise is an exception and besides, they can let anyone in that has a pulse,

Proof?

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(05-30-2016 12:36 AM)_C2_ Wrote:  

(05-29-2016 05:43 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  Boise State is keeping their program clean, and win they do. Once a kid gets into trouble? They boot that kid out of school and off the team. If Winston was at Boise State? He would have been booted right away. The latest Boise State player that was booted was arrested and going to trial for biting half of his ex-teammates ear off. Assault charges have been filed against that kid. Look at Boise State is at? All those wins, and a better win/loss record since 2000, and it is better than Baylor ever put together.

Now as for the Big 12? The firing of Art Briles is a wake up call to Bob Stoops, Butch Jones, Mike Gundy, Les Miles and so forth to clean up their act, and get rid of the trouble makers. It is not exclusive to Baylor and the Big 12. Nick Saban at Alabama is busy with their scandal as well with some of their players been arrested recently. NCAA at all levels need to clean up and get rid of the bad players. Look at what we are seeing with NFL players getting into trouble lately? All the problems started while those guys were in high school, and the coaches and recruits turned a blind eye by sweeping the kids past problems under the rug, and bring them to colleges were they continue their rang of terror.

Boise is an exception and besides, they can let anyone in that has a pulse, whereas Baylor at least has some academic standards.

Also, we don't know what people are gonna do until they do it. A choir boy today may turn into Ryan Leaf--err, I mean Johnny Manziel tomorrow. In other words, we'll never rid the game of these types of players.

(05-29-2016 11:44 PM)adcorbett Wrote:  I think there is a big difference between saying I can understand taking some risks or looking the their way to win, and (purposely) allowing that environment to foster.

What's the difference? He knows he can't compete with the Texases and OU's of the world by merely running a completely clean and wholesome operation. He knew the quickest route to winning was taking on character risks short of SMU-SWC style paying of players.

My only issue is that you get rid of them as quickly as possible once the trouble starts, like the Patriots did when they once had Randy Moss. As soon as he reverted back to a-hole Randy, Belichek cut him loose.

(05-29-2016 08:54 PM)bullet Wrote:  These players are representing the university. The coaches should keep that in mind.

LOL, I'm sure they will at the same time they get insulted (and in rare cases, threatened with violence) by fans, parents, alums and even administrators for not winning enough. No one in Louisiana cares about LSU losing to Alabama from February to August but you see in December they were adament about firing a coach that is less than 5 years removed from nearly winning a national title and is pretty much automatic for a top 15 finish.

During football season, no one cares about thugs playing for your favorite team, all they care about is bragging rights and even if some of us care, there's still a sizable enough minority or majority that doesn't.

Not all schools' fans want thugs playing for them. At some schools, coaches get a lot of heat for constantly having players in trouble.